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I have been reading opinions expressed by some that in essence say:<p>~~I don't want to hurt my spouse by telling the truth about the A ... so, in order to protect THEIR feelings, I intend to lie to my spouse the rest of his/her life~~<p>This seems to be a similar type of character trait M. Scott Peck wrote about in his classic book People Of The Lie These *people of the lie* are willing to go to the extreme of sacrificing the people (spouse or children) they supposedly care about most, rather than admit to certain flaws in themselves. Such people manage to deceive themselves and others as to their own values. Scapegoating, destroying evidence, avoiding scrutiny ... all the while claiming a noble motive for their deceptive lifestyle ... "Oh, NO ... I could never hurt my family that way ... I need to lie to them to protect them". <p>There is no chance for self-scrutiny and actual growing *good strong honest* character traits if one is not held accountable for their actions.<p>*The people of the lie* .... actually believe they are helping their victim out by deceiving and withholding truths ... it is just coincidental that their lies and secrets are rather unflattering truths about themselves! The motive for living a lie appears noble TO THE LIAR.... and the liar is really quite comfortable as a trickster. This is astonishing and eloquent narcissism functing as if it were love.<p>Just my thoughts.<p>I welcome your comments.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

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Absolutely Pepper!!!! I posted this as a reply and will try and make it more generic on your post because it is definately related!<p>It is painful and it is confusing. It is harmful to ourself to stuff those toxins (the lies of your decietful H). IMHO, the reason we investigate is to expose lies. I think BS need to confront WS in love. Its like you are getting sucked into the deception yourself. You don't have to keep your evidence from him. You don't need more evidence. This is why you spy. I wouldn't tell him HOW you know. But I would: <p>Very CALMLY Start by telling him you love him and you want to work on the marriage and you can handle ANYTHING as long as it is the truth. Then (calmly, calmly) ask him if he is in contact with her. (to give him a chance to be honest). If he lies (and he probably will - expect that) tell him (calmly, calmly) you were giving him an opportunity to be truthful. Your intent is not to find out if he is seeing her cause you already know he is. Then put the ball in his court and ask him (calmly, calmly) what he is going to do about it. (be vague like that but the statement is positioning him to make a choice between you two). <p>Don't get sucked into a battle of whether or not its true. Its amazing how we can see something with our own eyes or hear something with our own ears but the lies and our desire to believe them will have us doubting the facts and reality of it. Just (calmly, calmly) say my intent is not to find out, I already know. If you feel a LB coming on or if he is LB himself (they tend to freak out and become angry when they are exposed) then (calmly, calmly) say I can see your not ready to talk about this right now and walk away. Go somewhere safe, cry, scream, post... <p>A LB is not exposing the truth as long as you do it in love. To allow your H to continue this behavior is NOT love. Love him enough to be honest with him. He doesn't know how. You have to show him.

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I'm afraid this "position" is all too common around here.<p>Any ideas about how to communicate that to the "People of the Lie", how to counteract that position? How to present the "value" of the "Honesty" position?<p>At least in my case, nothing up to now has convinced my WW that the "act of lying" itself is FAR more damaging than the act or action she is lying about. Very frustrating.

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I think when I started revealing my innermost self to H for the first time after A... the stuff I was always scared to tell him (my fears, my hopes, etc.)... you know radical honesty he was taken aback. We were so used to just saying one thing to each other... but keeping the 'real' thoughts hidden.<p>Now after many months, he is reciprocating w/ radical honesty himself... sometimes the stuff is hard to hear... but I feel safer than I have in years, because I know what he's really thinking.<p>Cali

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My first post is from a position of experience. I only shared what I've learned which is VALUABLE information. But what I didn't share is my vulnerabilities...how I learned it.<p>When I was trying to "figure out" if H was having an affair I became obsessive compulsive in a crazy way. I would spy and investigate and snoop but when I had info I always wanted more. I never had enough. I remember how I could be in a parking lot on the other side of town and if a little piece of trash went flying by I would pick it up and investigate it - like a yellow sticky note from work with handwriting. It could've been any of a gazillion peoples note but I thought it might be "more evidence" on H. But when I had evidence I never knew what to do with it or I always wanted more info. <p>Anyway... I am over it now. I think first we need to get honest with ourself and recognize what we are willing to live with. If we don't know we can't set appropriate boundaries. We also need to be "willing" or come to an acceptance of divorce because if we think it is out of the question then we can't set appropriate boundaries. We need to ask ourself how are we contributing to their behavior. I'm not talking about the false Plan A everyones talking about I am talking about allowing others to treat us badly. If we want respect we must demand it in love. If they are unwilling to respect us we must be strong enough to walk away. People want the fairytale so badly that they decieve themselves and therefore contribute to the destruction of it. But NOT knowingly. Its more out of naivity.

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Pepper - a worthy post.<p>I often wonder about, and finally conclude - I have to re-do the logic steps for reassurance - that the magnamimous liars are indeed self-serving, yet likely delusional. They actually believe they're protecting others.<p>For further reading, I recommend Private Lies by Frank Pittman. Have you read it?<p>Dave

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Any ideas about how to communicate that to the "People of the Lie", how to counteract that position? How to present the "value" of the "Honesty" position?<p> <hr></blockquote>
I don't know if you can get them to see the value of honesty if they don't have that value. "Values", I think, are things people come to appreciate because they've lived them. <p>Our family recently moved after being in recovery for 1 1/2 years. My wife has changed so much, and has not told a serious lie in a very long time. She started a new job here and she is so happy because she can hold her head high when she meets new people. No fear that they may know something bad about her. She's made some good friends - positive people, not the sort of low-lifes she used to attract. <p>The "value" that honesty brings to her life is becoming apparent to her. The other day she got back in her car to return some groceries the checker mistakenly gave her. She kinda looked at me when she discovered the mistake, but before I could even say anything she said "I'm going to take them back". [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>How we got there was really tough though. My W had been raised by a dishonest mother, in a home broken by infidellity. It seemed she would die before she would tell the truth about what she'd done. <p>We had a terrible roller-coaster going on the early months after dday. I found out some things about her affairs, but she lied about everything she thought she could get away with. We read all the books explaining how we needed complete honesrty, and she said she agreed, yet it was always her version of complete honesty. She had had two more affairs she wasn't telling about. <p>For my part, I read the recovery books with her, but also, I questioned her hard. I picked her stories apart where they didn't have the "ring of truth". We talked and talked and cried and yelled. I think the reality is it became more painful for her to deal with continuing to lie, than to break down and confess all. That's what she did - it was very hard, she started crying uncontrollably, saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It was as if all the fight drained out of her, she lay there shaking on our bed while I held her.<p>Letting it all out was the turning point for her. She's become a really nice wife and mother, the change is like night and day. I don't know if this has any significance for anyone else dealing with honesty, but I wanted to share. I continue to struggle with letting go of my pain. Thanks ,Pepper, for reminding me of that day when my wife showed her true courage, I'm feeling kind-of humble right now.
David

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David - good to hear from you. I think about you two everytime I see your old e-mail addresses in my list.<p>Congrats on your continued recovery.<p>Dave

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Thank David;<p>I have not been able to do that. She just gets hysterical every time I have caught any lies, end the communication, and accuses me of invading her privacy, etc. thus deflecting the conversation away.
I stopped doing it b/c it became a bigger LB than a tool for getting at the truth. And we've been just drifting from there...Plan A, no real progress...terrible thing.<p>Ideas?

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WAT!<p>For a moment I was confused ... thinking "Why is WAT asking me if I've read that HOWARD STERN book?" .... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But then, I realized, Howard's book Is "Private Parts" NOT "Private Lies" ... LOL!<p>No, I've not read Mr. Pittman's book. Are there pearls of wisdom from that book you'd like to share?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

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Pepper,<p>This thread explains a lot. For me it was frustationing and highly illogical how someone would rather hurt with lies and yet give the reasons that "I did this so as NOT to hurt U" and actually believe it!!!! <p>I felt as if I was being played for a fool. The real fool is the one who 'thinks' others will buy off on that as a reason vs an excuse. <p>I will go find that book. <p>Wat, is the same info found in the book you recommended? What else does that book provide?<p>Thanks....good thread. <p>L.

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Pepper,
I did a search using the words "private lies", cuz i remembered this thread. This has an exceprt from the book. It's more along the lines of why Affairs don't last... I'm looking forward to WAT and/or Orchid posting a few pearls [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=011043

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Dear Faith~~<p>Thanks for the link. It was a good read. Anyone involved with affairs (from any angle) should know this info.<p>I was advised by my physician to do whatever I could to restore my marriage. She divorced her H after his affair, and she always regretted the divorce. <p>It was tough, and took a long time, but we did it! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Best to you.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

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Thanks, Faith, for mining that gem from H2Y back into view.<p>I 'spose it's somehow bizarrely elegant that the very first book I picked up after realizing my X was in an affair with her best friend's H was Private Lies. I say this because it is largely about why marriages from affairs don't last; and the slow train wreck I'm watching appears headed for phase 4, marriage, with the finale sure to follow exactly as Pittman describes.<p>Nonetheless, Pittman covers the gamut of affairs from start to finish, mostly the hard core, romantic, "soulmate" variety that wrecks long standing families - again, the kind I'm witnessing times two. <p>Here's my favorite passage in my worn out, dog eared copy. The is the basis for a lot of the advice I offer up here and I believe it is entirely compatible with, and confirms MB principles:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Keeping Sane Amid The Romance<p>My family and I took a bobsled ride down an Olympic bobsled course. It was exhilarating, terribly exciting, utterly inexorable, and very uncomfortable, though we didn't notice how uncomfortable it was until it was over. While we were in the sled, racing eighty miles an hour out of control on the ice, being slammed from one icy wall to the other, we only felt the excitement. The whole thing lasts less than a minute. <p>Romance is more dangerous. It too is totally compelling and almost completely impervious to outside influence. But romance can last for weeks or even months, and can interfere with one's real life.<p>I urge people who are in-love to slow down and enjoy it, and not to take it seriously. But they can't do that any more effectively than a bobsled could. The in-love are out of control, out of their minds, and out of reality. So it is the other people in the lives of the in-love who must keep their heads.<p>The bettrayed partner has the difficult job. Cuckold spouses of people caught up in the throes of romance feel that their marriage is threatened, their dreams shattered, their security gone, but even more awful is the insult. Suddenly, their partner in a love that was once this special too has declared them to no longer exist. There can be few greater insults than that. But in addition, their mate has come to life in another relationship, displaying a capacity for happiness and joy that has not been readily apparent up until now. The insult and rejection seem total.<p>It is very difficult to recognize that this craziness and disorientation should not be taken personally. The person who has been betrayed may not even realize that the infidel is likely to return home. It is difficult to survive such a degrading and depersonalizing situation, yet there are advantages to holding on. Nothing the betrayed spouse can do will affect the romance, but the romance is time limited, and will most likely fall apart. The aggrieved partner might want to be there when that happens.<p>I advise spouses who are waiting for their mate's romance to end: don't try to out-romance a romantic. Don't bother to arouse jealously. Don't try to get your partner's attention, increase your partner's guilt, or threaten some sort of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.<hr></blockquote><p>So, IMHO, the bottom line for BSs: Apply my Quick Start Guidelines For Betrayed Spouses; Plan A, Plan B. Work on yourself and don't LB. <p>The "romance" will do the rest.<p>[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

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(((WAT)))<p>*~~beautiful~~*<p>Thanks so much!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

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Question for Davidb:<p>you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I don't know if you can get them to see the value of honesty if they don't have that value. "Values", I think, are things people come to appreciate because they've lived them. <hr></blockquote><p>And of course, this is entirely correct. However, my question referred more specifically to the "Value" of the truth as it relates to recovering a M from an affair, rather than for life in general.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>as it relates to recovering a M from an affair, <hr></blockquote><p>
Well I gave my W every book and article I could find that dealt with honesty and rebuilding trust after an A. <p>I let her know that I would not accept lies in our recovery. I did not "let up on her" as you say you did.<p>For my part, I embraced total honesty as well. I confessed several things I had done behind her back including going to a strip club after a meeting one night. I kind-of told her my whole life story, including all the times I had let sex get me to do things that I was ashamed of. We talked for a week or two every night about my stuff.<p>After that I encouraged her to do the same. She shared about her life starting as a young girl. She had some things that had hurt her badly and she had kept inside.<p>All these nights talking really brought us closer together, but at the same time she was still holding onto some lies. I would yell and tell her I didn't believe her when she gave some ridiculous story about what she'd done or why.<p>So I guess you could say it was like the carrot and the stick. Working through all the lies was extremely painful for us both, but it brought us closer than we'd ever been. My wife realized that, and she was beginning to get a concience. She was afraid, too, that I might learn of some of her stuff from someone else.<p>Around that time my W was befriended by a wonderful woman who used to post here a lot. Her "name"s SKM, and she recommended the book "Just Like Jesus" by Max Lucado. I'm not a religious person, yet I was really moved by this book. Maybe your W and you might read it?<p>David

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(((Spacecase)))<p>I do remember struggling with this issue as well. Here are some thoughts:<p>Liars don't trust the unfiltered truth ... for whatever reason. <p>Liars attempt to manipulate the "outcome" in their favor by re-arranging facts. <p>Liars feel a need to control the outcome.<p>Liars use truth filtering and manipulation to sooth their anxiety about the unknown outcome.<p>
Once I took all these areas of concern (lack of trust, manipulation, control issues, anxiety), and, sort-of boiled them down to a certain essence ... this is the issue I was left with......... Liars generally lack faith.<p>Lying is spiritual anemia. Where is the trust in God ? Where is the faith that we will endure? Where is the letting go and letting God?<p>Spirituality is the answer .. or, to be more accurate, was the answer for our family [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We began to pray together, holding hands. We prayed aloud. We prayed our fears. We prayed our desires. We pray together every day since our recovery began. We pray the serenity prayer at the end. We prayed to "Let YOUR will be done" ... which is a letting go of the need to "control" ... the need to "manipulate" ... the need to lie.<p>Hope this helps.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>P.S.<p>By the way ... this praying aloud did NOT come easily for me. One of MY recovery issues was my guarded intimacy ... and I learned to let my guard down through prayer.<p>[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

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The person I was most hoping would read this thread and reply ... has not (yet) posted.... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ..... are YOU here? Do you know who you are?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>P.S. Sel, it is not you, so don't ask ...K?<p>[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

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Davidb;<p>you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> All these nights talking really brought us closer together, but at the same time she was still holding onto some lies. I would yell and tell her I didn't believe her when she gave some ridiculous story about what she'd done or why.
<hr></blockquote><p>Isn't this just a very major LB?<p>I have yelled, and showed her the proof, confronted her with the evidence, and still she has not budged, so that's why I stopped. I fugured that if she would not even accept things and be willing to talk about them when confronted with proof, then I'd have to wait until we get some way down the road before she could "safely" talk about it honestly. I had to stop LBing if I was to have a hope at recovery....was I wrong?

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