Pepper:<p>You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Liars don't trust the unfiltered truth ... for whatever reason.
<hr></blockquote>
I don't quite understand what this means...can you elaborate?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Liars attempt to manipulate the "outcome" in their favor by re-arranging facts. <p>Liars feel a need to control the outcome.<p>Liars use truth filtering and manipulation to sooth their anxiety about the unknown outcome.<p>
Once I took all these areas of concern (lack of trust, manipulation, control issues, anxiety), and, sort-of boiled them down to a certain essence ... this is the issue I was left with......... Liars generally lack faith. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree with all of these, unfortunately, "religious" faith is not really part of our lives, and while I agree that this could be a very good way to address these issues, in our case it's not really a viable option.<p>Others have some ideas as to how to address these issues?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Isn't this just a very major LB?<p> <hr></blockquote><p>Space,
You know your situation and you should do what works for you. Yes, I suppose many MBs would say that to yell at the WS, tell them you don't believe them, is to LB.<p> I have a very different definition of LB I think than most, but my situation is maybe different. My W and I are both recovering addicts. We were in recovery for 10 years before my W first relapsed on drugs, then started having sex with other men. I have my own recovery to worry about besides all the pain I was in. I came very close to using over this. <p>So I really considered her behavior all part of her relapse. With an addict, plan A type stuff would never work, it just enables them to avoid facing the truth. So we just have stuff that there is zero tolerance for in our house, drugs or alcohol is one obvious one, but also I insisted she get treatment, and that we work a very serious program of recovery. We don't have to work it perfectly, but we've got have a recovery, or I just didn't see how I could stay sane.<p>So for me, I don't see where telling her I'm hurt by a lie, or yelling about it is a LB. I'll tell you, I had very little control over my emotions in the early months anyway. But why is that a LB? Because it hurts her feelings? Well in my W's case, the pain she went through as a result of all her lies coming home to roost is exactly what she needed to change her life around, and in a weird way I guess I needed that too. We went through what we needed to. <p>Now remember, we worked through this one step at a time. The very first step was to find out if we were committed to our M. We promised each other that we were, and we reassured each other when we needed to along the way. We made sure all our numbers were changed and contact was ended. We stayed in close touch. We started sharing all that stuff I wrote about. <p>So what I'm saying is that we had some real good stuff going on, and some real painful stuff. <p>Sometimes I think that when there's a problem of continued lying, it's a symptom of something else that's wrong. In our 12 step recovery, we would look at becoming willing to tell the truth as a third step issue - being willing to turn it over, like Pepper was saying. If a person has trouble here, it's usually a sign that they have not fully accepted the previous steps.<p>Maybe if she's not willing to be honest you might look at the real basic first-step type stuff. Does she admit she had an A? Is she sorry? Has she ended all contact, etc. <p>David

It isn't me, is it Pepper?<p>Regardless, this post is very good reading. <p>Jo

Yo Pep, you talking to me? (that was said in my New York DeNiro accent in case you didn't notice)<p>If you were....I've been here and reading....just don't have any answers. I am aware that for two years now my husband has been avoiding dealing with his guilt, his issues, and his feelings (yes, lying to himself and me). In other areas he has been a model husband working on rebuilding and growing as a husband and father. Recently he has been treating me like a queen.....mopping the floor, getting kids off to school, extra huggy, and even buying me flowers...deceiving himself into believing that if he keeps busy enough along with all these actions, he can keep the emotional monster happy and in her cage long enough for things to blow over so he doesn't have to talk. Deceiving himself into believing that he is the perfect husband doing everything he's supposed to be and the problem must be me. And I allowed him to manipulate me into saying "I give up asking, you come to me when you're ready to talk".<p>And I was beginning to think the problem was me. I even read your first post and wondered if I was the liar....not facing truths in my life and behavior....falsely believing that because I can understand how he feels that I'm protecting him by allowing him to avoid his issues, or falsely believing that my issues are real and that the truth is that I won't let them go. <p>Right now I don't have the answers....all I know is that I can only control my actions. So I've been hanging out with Sel telling myself that I am normal, that I need to start working on myself again, that for my sanity I need to find a way to deal with these issues and let them go for me. I think I've been trying to fit another square peg into a round hole and I'm tried of forcing it to fit. The round hole doesn't want to change into a square one so what do I do? Just accept it doesn't fit? Make the hole change? Leave with my square peg? Trade my square peg in for round one? Pray for the hole to change? For right now I'm going to accept that it just doesn't fit and see where that takes me (I've already been doing the praying part!).<p>Oh, and if you weren't talking to me.....I learned some stuff anyway and did some thinking!<p>Love ya,
JJ

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>"religious" faith is not really part of our lives, and while I agree that this could be a very good way to address these issues, in our case it's not really a viable option.<p>Others have some ideas as to how to address these issues?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Spaceman - I'll offer a suggestion.<p>Anyone reading my posts for the last 19 months would rightfully conclude, with the exception of one notable post in the "Notable Posts", that I steer clear of "religious" topics, per se. This is because that, while I profess to have "faith", I doubt my personal beliefs conform to anyone else's here and I will not discuss it further. <p>Nonetheless, what I and many others have found to be pretty universal among the "organized" faiths is the concept of the Golden Rule.<p>To me, it fits most situations and it has never failed me. Perhaps you sought a more defined mechanism, but I really think in boils down to this simple maxim.<p>WAT<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

Thanks for the clarification Davidb; clearly, you'd already gone several steps ahead before this all happened, so that makes a difference, I suppose.<p>My W has admitted to the A, but much of the "truth" is still hidden because it was a long process of lies, confrontation, acceptance of what she felt she had to accept based on what I'd found, twisting the "meaning" of what I found to suit a new story, etc. etc. so at this point, I'm not really sure what is true and what isn't, much less whether I really know the whole story.<p>She has not shown any real remorse, she has not agreed to end the A or No Contact either, so I guess those will have to be the first steps. Maybe after that, she will have regained the measure of trust she feels she needs before we can let it all out and we can work thru it.<p>Thanks.

Yes, WAT, you're right; it does boil down to the Golden Rule.<p>I think my W is just not ready yet...we have probably several steps to take first, and we'll see if after that she can start coming back to where she can appreciate and put back into practice her previous values.<p>I'm working on it.

LOL! JJ hahaha<p>Noooooo! I'm not refering to you my sweet baby girl!<p>There will forever be some anxiety about the infidelity ... and we can drive ourselves crazy sometimes. But, I sure do love sharing with you ... and when I was going crazy (pre-Prozac) it sure was comforting to send YOU my crazy insecure thoughts via email instead of speaking them aloud to Mr. Pepper ... who, by the way, is behaving in a most wonderful manner lately.<p>
I just want to give you my love ... and damn it !!! I wish we lived closer so we could have some friggin lunch dates or something! Come to California!<p>Let me tell you what we're doing for the 16-year-old's B-day gift. You know , this child is a talented musician. He has several favorite bands that are current... and, he has become a major Beatles fan as well. Paul McCartney is doing a concert here next weekend. We bought him 4 concert tickets (good seats too) and we are providing a limo for him and 3 of his friends to be picked up at their homes, driven in style to the concert ... then out to eat ...and later, brought home. These kids are going crazy with anticipation. Practically foaming at the mouth. Mr. Pepper and I are happy for him ... but I'm starting to feel jealous ... I wanna go too! Son is doing really well. His bi-polar seems to have stablilzed. He's getting excellent grades !!! WOW!<p>Love,<p>Pepperoni [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

(((RESILIENT)))<p>Nooooo ... you are not a person of the lie. This person usually posts on one of the other MB forums.<p>How are you doin'? Are you making peace with the past as best you can? You have survived so much. I admire all of us survivors .... we have huevos [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Someday, you will be busy, doing something, and suddenly >>POP<< you'll realize how happy you are, and you will recognize the path you've traveled as a journey to your growth of spirit.<p>Be patient and kind to yourself.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Spacecase ... I'm still thinking how best to reply to you ... be patient OK? I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you ... There is a still half-baked reply in my brain, but it's just not quite ready to be brought to the table. Sometimes I need a few days to mull something over ... (That's cuz I'm 52 years old ... and my brain's seratonin level is finally starting to rise out of the basement ... Helloooooooooo Prozac! LOL!)<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Pepper, thanks for the update. I'm waiting for the Paxil to kick in! Why didn't you just get tickets for you and Mr. Pep too?<p>Still feel free to help figure out my latest puzzle.....I bought "The Language of Letting Go" today (and they didn't have that Sweet Potato book - they never heard of it!). I'm still gonna stick around this thread and see if I can get any other ideas. (My latest idea is throwing my journal at Mr.JJ next time he asks "what's wrong" but I suppose that could be a big LB) <p>I wish I could take you up on your offer and hop on a plane to CA....it freaking snowed here again yesterday!<p>Hugs,
JJ

Bump up for 2 long ...<p>.. a companion thread for your "measured honesty" thread.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Pepper:<p>Awesome stuff, dudette!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I didn't finish the thread, as I have to fire up the oven and cook a pizza for dinner, then my W comes home and I want to be with HER. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for pointing me here!

I've come to the conclusion that the lower the member number, the crazier they are [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anything below 10,000...watch out!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What a crew! I hate having had to come her, but...I love this place! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

SC:<p>Guess I must be "together" cause I'm over 17K! (no, I'm not THAT old... ...though I am old enough to remember when the ground was still warm to the touch! ...and yes, my mother DID sit behind Jesus in the third grade!) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Actually, I'm also awake at this hour. Had a long talk with the spousal unit about BIG R stuff. Or was that $**t? I dunno.<p>Will cogitate, and if I'm still sentient long enough to compose my thoughts, I'll fire up one of my threads, or create a new one, and SPILL MY GUTS YET AGAIN! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

hi 2long.. need to get to know you .. se e all your threads.. I am up too, crying and balling and feeling like I messed up my marriage and drove my h away.. yea right... I do need help... spacecase.. maybe if I keep poisting I will start to feel ok???? thanks, H

Honey:<p>Boy, I wish I could be more helpful than I am tonight. I definitely have experience now, staying up late crying. Heck, I don't even have to be up at night to do that. I cried in my IC session last thursday. I told my W that tonight, and it seems that no matter how hurt I've been since D-day about her A, I keep being reminded of just how much of an inward schmuck I must have been the 11 years while she was employing "measured honesty" (aka measured lies) with me. <p>I feel like giving up. Really I do. My W doesn't want to break it off with OM, and essentially put me on par with him in her LBank. Guess that's common news here, and not something that I should feel picked on about, but it's one thing to know that and another to feel it. <p>What is it with these WSs anyway? We aren't BAD people. We certainly don't deserve this crap! YOU don't deserve to be up late crying without someone to comfort you. Someone that you M'd, with the intention of spending your life with them, not even trying to share your pain.<p>Boy, I'm rambling negatively again... <p>Should I just shut this thing down and go to bed?

thanks for your reply... I think both of our ws are being very very stupid... I am having another beer.. just number 2, dark beer.. I don';t usually even drink beer.. h would be impressed.. but it is bass pale ale and i think it tastes good.. I have not drank in ages.. not more than one beer.. I bought 2 six packs.. last week.. even called h once and offered to bring them.. by.. but no.. he did not feel safe seeing me... ? ya know how nuts and crazyI am folks.. but why would I be upset.. h is only f++++ any other women who lets him near her.. and they all love him... and he laughs at me.. and says he does not want to waste next ten yrs of his life unhappy like he always has been with me... <p>strange.. that I have been very happy with him.. problems.. yes.. everyone has problems.. life is not a bowl of cherries,... but that does not mean I was breaking my marriage vows.. I stil l loved him as my one true love.. vent vent.. .thanks for the support... <p>ws are all in fog! Okey dokey? feeling that first beer.. by the time I drink the second I will definitely hit the sack and sleep... this is my sleeping help tongiht... actually I feel a little giddy??? hehhehehe honey

Aw shucks, Honey:<p>You're WH is being far crueler to you than my WW is to me. She's asleep quietly in our room. We ended our discussion on a pretty positive note, and I have to admit that I appreciated the honesty, what I got now, FINALLY after 11 damned years!!! I do love her, but I'm having a hard time with her "not wanting to be M'd" and "I told OM that if I have to give up either one of you, I'll just give up both of you and be alone." Geez! Does she EVER stop to think how this will affect our son, who's the sweetest, most intelligent, trusting 15-yr old you could ever meet? And he adores her???<p>I sure wish that I had some beer right now. Like maybe a nice Guiness draft. I like dark beers, good sipping beers. And the great thing about Guiness? If it gets warm, you can just put butter on it!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But no. Only inebriant in the house is a bottle of Piesporter wine. My W likes white wines. I like reds, like good, hearty Merlots. I've never been much for hard liquors either. <p>that Piesporter, though... And when I finish that, there's some window washing fluid and a quart of 10w-30 out in the garage. Life could be much worse, doncha know? Or doncha?