Well, WW still going forward with separation. "this is something i have to do." suggested posting her feelings and what she feels she has to do on this site and get some advice from some who have been there and she refuses. asked her to get counseling for herself while she is still with me and refuses. asked her to read some books and get some insight and she refuses. she is giving no indication at least in my eyes that she wants to work anything out now, let alone when she separates. <p>i can't agree with a separation and i know nothing works as far as demands and such. i just advised her this morning that i don't agree with a separation and cannot go through it. if she would like to leave then i will file for divorce. i refuse to put my life on hold and go through more incredible pain while she decides if she wants our marriage or not. don't know if this is the best decision, but i know me and i don't think i would take her back after a separation anyway. <p>i love my w still, with all my heart. but, i just don't agree that a separation will do any good. maybe i'm wrong and i will lose the love of my life forever. i don't have her now anyway. guess i will make her happy and give her a divorce.

pull back on those reigns nelli! don't push! you're pushing, DONT! I read your post, and just wished to God that my wife had wanted 'only' a separation first. All I got were papers w/out any counseling, separation period, ANYTHING. Your wife in 'The Fog', don't put a lid on it right now. <p>Stay strong and do it for us guys that didn't get that chance. There's still a light on for you, and that's good.<p>I totally feel your frustration and helplessness! It sux big time. You won't be able to change her mind right now, but can change your actions and approach to life. I hope that others have some better advise, but all I can do is encourage!<p>Jon

Hopended,<p>You're doing what I, and a lot of people in your situation naturally do - trying to hold on to something that our emotions tell us is the last straw. <p>You said that you love your wife with all your heart. Love means to place her needs above yours and this is really hard at this time and in this situation. It also means that you don't hang on to her for your own sake or out of your own desperation - which also is hard not to do. <p>I prayed so much about what to do and how to deal with things, and God made me stop holding on so tightly. I mess things up pretty often, but in general I'm not holding so tightly, and this helps. <p>I remember one evening standing alone beside a lake and praying, and I saw several large fish at the edge of the water. I slowly walked up and they didn't move. If I had rushed up and tried to grab them, or thrown a net over them, they would have frantically tried to get away. God seemed to tell me that I had to let go and not run to my wife and cling to her, but that I had to let her go. If she really wants to leave, no matter how tightly I hold, I can't keep her. Ultimatums are necessary sometimes, such as when there is continued contact, or continued dishonesty, but every case is different. <p>I am not a strong person, but God made me strong enough to separate, and accept that things may be over, and not go completely nuts about it. Make seeking Him and His will your primary focus - and I know that is much easier said than done, but you're being "tried by fire" now. What is real will come out, but you don't have to be a saint, just cry out to Him and He will answer.<p>When I quit clinging so tightly, my wife saw me differently, and started valuing me more. As long as I was clinging to her, that merely drove her away. You have to really realize that things may be over, but work hard to reconcile, not out of desperation, out of love for her. <p>Look at her life and what would help her get out of the pit she is in. You can't do it without God's strength so pray a lot! <p>Hope this helps.

It seems to me that you&#8217;re jumping too quickly to divorce (mentioned twice in your post). Her desire for separation is not necessarily the immediate step before divorce. From reading your earlier posts, you even said that you respected her decision. Of course you said that last month when the prospect of separation was only a possibility and not a very real probability.<p>I don&#8217;t want you to panic. You have done EVERYTHING you could to prevent her from leaving &#8230; You&#8217;ve been Plan A&#8217;ing your b*** off, you openly expressed your feelings on the issue, and you urged her to reconsider. If reclaiming a great marriage is the war, you have lost a battle, not the war.<p>To me, this is a setback, and these boards are filled with people feeling bad because of setbacks. And what is the universal response? Don&#8217;t lose hope! Since you really love WW, then continuing with Plan A seems to be the appropriate action right now. From your earlier posts, it appears that she has responded positively to your changes.<p>Let me end my post to you, Hopenden, with hope. First, it takes time for WW to believe that your Plan A changes are real, and not just temporary to achieve some other motive. Second, though you&#8217;re not close to Plan B yet, look at how many WSs have come back from separation after only a few days in response to the BSs Plan Bs.<p>I know you feel bad right now, but try to be strong. Your family (including your WW) needs you to be.<p>Giles

Thank you Jon, Boyhowdy, and GilesCory for your replies. <p>i am just having a terrible time accepting that she is so eager to separate and break up our family. when we talk about separating she does so with no emotion at all. when i ask w how she can be so emotionless, w says just because she doesn' t show it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt her. <p>the reason i am set on a divorce is because i know me. if we separate i will be waiting here hoping and praying that she comes back. wondering constantly what she is doing, who she is with. i know she has told me that she is not going to see anyone, she knows she will still be married. but i just have a hard time believing that. if i divorce her then i don't have to worry about her coming back or what she is doing. it would be over. <p>i do love her very much, but i cannot agree to a separation when I just can't see any good coming out of it. ww says things like "i have never been on my own. and i want to do that." "i don't believe your changes will last, you've cried wolf so many times, now I don't believe you." "i am hurt and angry and need time apart to get over these feelings." "i have to leave for me, so that i can work on me." "i don't want to be married right now." "i'm tired of trying to work on our marriage, i just don't want it anymore." I don't see much in here that leads me to believe that she will ever come back, much less tried to work out the issues with our marriage. <p>i just don't know anymore. i don't want a divorce but i don't want a separation either. i guess i figure if she wants to leave then it's over. separation or divorce, what's the difference she is gone either way. i don't want to be something to fall back on if things don't work out when she is gone. i don't feel i deserve that.

"I don't feel I deserve that."<p>Nope, you don't deserve that ..... no one does.<p>BUT --> (you just knew a "but" was commin' , didn't ya?) ---> but, don't those 4 kids deserve and need an intact family to grow up in? ... And, aren't their needs a priority above your feelings about being "something to fall back on".<p>There is a HUGE difference between separation and divorce. H U G E.<p>Are you willing to show your kids how important marriage and family are by fighting your fears (and pride too, I might add) and working on your marriage.<p>This is CPR TIME ... do CPR on your marriage. Imagine one of your kids needs life-saving CPR ... would you say to yourself, "I just don't deserve this." ... or would you do the CPR? <p>(I know this is a trick question ... but I'm trying to shake you up a little bit. I remember being in your shoes... and it's difficult to think clearly through all the pain!)<p>Divorce or separation??? ... CPR can be done during a separation. Divorce is closer to a death, CPR is not going to work.<p>CPR your family.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

hopended,<p>yes 'you know you'....but don't just decide ahead of time what the future will bring....wouldn't you have awful regrets if a separation WAS the thing that could save your marriage. what if you agree to let her go without guilt, if SHE agrees to counseling and an active plan to recreate the romantic love missing from your marriage? agrees to delay dating, and date you instead during the separation. is there a possible OM you think? look at some of the threads here....marriages have risen out of the ashes over and over around here....maybe hopelessness is a little premature and showing her that you ARE willing to negotiate will go a long way towards showing her that not everything needs to be your way or the highway. she doesn't expect you to change....why don't you surprise her.

thank you Pepperband and Starfish4729.<p>but what about all the things she says? they sound like closure for her. she is done with everything, not willing to consider or work on anything now, much less when we are not together?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but what about all the things she says? they sound like closure for her. she is done with everything, not willing to consider or work on anything now, much less when we are not together?
<hr></blockquote><p>any advice from ww/fww or anyone who has insight as to the things my w is saying?

Hopenden,<p>All of us as BSs, replay over and over some of the things that our WSs say during this difficult/painful time in the marriage. I&#8217;ve seen these phrases from those on these boards who are in recovery now. I&#8217;ve heard the first two myself, and I have great hope that we will be in recovery as well before too long.<p>"i have never been on my own. and i want to do that." My WW and I met when she was 19 and told me the same thing before DDay1.<p>"i don't believe your changes will last, you've cried wolf so many times, now I don't believe you." Early on, my W told me that the reason I was doing Plan A stuff was because I felt threatened (again, before DDay1).<p>The next two:<p>"i am hurt and angry and need time apart to get over these feelings." <p>"i have to leave for me, so that i can work on me." <p>She&#8217;s upset. She also sounds confused. Many talk of BSs being in the &#8220;fog&#8221; and being angry and confused is par for the course.<p>The last two:<p>"i don't want to be married right now." <p>"i'm tired of trying to work on our marriage, i
just don't want it anymore."<p>She questions the marriage, but she is NOT saying, &#8220;I want the marriage over.&#8221; To paraphrase Pepperband, there&#8217;s a H U G E difference between the two. Again, par for the course for BSs in the fog.<p>Part of the reason Plan A is so hard is because we have to fight through these comments and continue on our path. I don&#8217;t think any BS starts Plan A and gets an immediate end to the A and a perfect marriage. Unfortunately, it takes time and patience. <p>If you continue with Plan A in the face of these statements, I want you to think about this &#8211; At some point she will reflect on some of her statements, and she will also reflect on your response. When she doubts her statement that she doesn&#8217;t want to be married right now, she will remember that you were strong, and fighting for the marriage.<p>Giles ("more weight" [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )

The decision depends on if she is by herself or having an affair still, if she has been saying she is going to end the affair, but has not done anything about it then that should weigh in the decision. I think taking a set time frame to separate will not hurt at present, but only you know her best, and how committed she is to work on things. The time to separate will give you time to work on yourself to find out what things you could change if things work out between you and her. If they don't you will be well grounded to look at what you want in another relationship. She indicated she is tired of working on the marriage which indicates she may want time via separation to see how committed you are to the marriage, or if you will divorce and find another mate immediately. My wife has not indicated she wants to do anything yet, but in my mind I have committed time frames to myself to indicate that if by the custody hearing for the children she has not broke off the relationship with the other guy, I will file immediately after for divorce. If she ends the relationship with the other guy, and wants to separate, that will work for me at present.

thanks Gilescorey and Lost in Space.<p>i find myself more and more willing everyday to let w go. i still love w deeply and hope my marriage will recover. i am seeing through reading and posting that to let w go is my only option at the present. w is still in the home and i will hope and pray that she doesn't go but if she does then I will have to make a decision. accept a separation or file for divorce. i am still torn between the two. <p>how do you deal with the pain of separation? i do try to keep busy, working out and spending time with the kids. but often i find myself thinkng about my w. nothing negative i just look at a picture of her and think of all the happy times, how beautiful she is...and how much i still love and want her. <p>also, last night i advised my w that i was through trying, not giving up hope but through trying. i have been trying my butt off and nothing is working. w said "okay, you have been trying for a month and now your through?" "try, trying for 13 years, like i did!" i feel i have been trying really hard since 01/02, i guess she doesn't agree. maybe it was a bad choice of words. my meaning was i am not going to be begging her to stay anymore, hugging her and kissing her constantly, leaving her little love notes, sending ecards, sending flowers...none of that is helping and i get the feeling it just bothers her anyway. that is what i meant was going to stop. <p>some days you just feel like you can't do anything right!!! you kinda know what to do but can't find the courage or strength to do it!

You are being way too hasty. Separation saved our marriage even after my H's affair with my former best friend. It really worked. Don't give up so easily. Putting 'your life on hold' just may be exactly what is needed right now. Divorce is a short term solution to a long term problem. Please reconsider

You say you're torn between accepting a separation and filing for a divorce. Let me be blunt - accept the separation. In what fundamental way will your life be any different if you file for divorce? If you like, you can always adopt the mindset during the separation that you are, in fact, divorced. <p>Things that almost certainly will not encourage your wife to recommit to the marriage include: promises, threats, negotiation, pleading, logic, bribery, etc.<p>Things that have a better chance: you giving her space but remaining a friend to her, you trying to understand what went wrong and working on your piece of it, you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and becoming the best man and father you can be.<p>How do you deal with the pain of separation? Read a lot, rekindle old friendships, exercise, be a great father to your kids. You might consider seeing a counselor and/or a doctor, even take antidepressants to get you through the worst of it. If you can afford it, schedule a phone session with one of the MB counselors. At the very least you'll hang up the phone feeling like you have a plan.<p>Take care of yourself and your kids. This is very difficult territory, but you're not alone.