Would like some input on a letter I have written to WS. He keeps pressing me to move back in and wants us to work on M but is not totally done with OW (I think). We have spent months and months going back and forth and WS has never stopped wanting to be married to me. Not sure if that is good or bad right now but I know everything possible has to be done to end A or end us......I AM WEARY.<p>All advice welcome:<p>WS,<p>You have been my life and love for 33 years. You have colored my world in a very significant way with many goods things and some bad things. It is important that you know that I love you. I see things in you that give me hope and these are the reasons that I guess have kept me hanging on throughout all the troubles we have experienced in our marriage. I admit, again, that I have played a part in our marital struggles and again, I say that I am willing to work on my part ONLY if you will work on your part…….Together working and discovering what is needed to fix, mend and make our marriage work. <p>Your affair/inappropriate involvement with (OW) or any other person is absolutely unacceptable and cannot continue in any way if we get back together. You cannot have any contact with her forever. You say you love me and you want us to live together but you have to show me cause in all areas of life, actions speak louder than words. Since Nov, you have tossed us back and forth with indecision and powerlessness. Your words have no meaning any more and may not for a while cause I feel like you are either jerking me around big time or your life is unmanageable and you need help. I DO NOT TRUST YOU and will not live with someone who cannot be honest, upfront, and open with their life. Marriage is about care and protection, joint agreement, among many other things. <p>I am writing this note to make it clear that you cannot move back in the house in May. You need to keep the apartment until you have seen a counselor and I see proof that you are working on healthier living, have NO contact with (OW) and are obtaining tools for fixing the damage and destruction that you have caused. With the right tools, I know that anything can be repaired but I am not convinced that you are willing and able to obtain and use the tools available for rebuilding. I will be waiting for you to give me a written plan, as you have promised, on how to begin rebuilding. <p>I can no longer flop back and forth in indecision and uncertainty. I am weary and totally drained. I have nothing left to motivate me to hang on. We are at the end of the merry-go-ride and I will get off. I will get out of this loop and will take the necessary action that I have to take to protect myself and make progress to survive this.<p>Love,
BS<p>I feel so pressed and pushed back in a corner with WS's need to move back in. I have told him he cannot move in a couple of times but I saw his apartment for rent in the paper. He is not hearing me and that is why I wrote this note to clarify. He did agree to see a C and write out a plan so weary me will wait for some proof.<p>TW

TD,<p>I posted in recovery section<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Posted in Recovery also:<p>Hi Tossed ~<p>Hmmm...I think you need to be very careful with how you word this letter. There's quite a few selfish demands in it - and you can't lovebust your way into recovery.<p>Your letter can talk about what you need in a marriage - but not what you demand that he do. You can talk about how much you love him, and you can tell him that you do not feel safe enough to have him move home. <p>You can say something like: "I need an exclusive sexual relationship, and safe, open, and honest emotional intimacy."<p>You can't say: "H, you must provide me with honesty and monogamy and this is what you have to do!"<p>You can say: "H, I love you with all of my heart, and I am delighted that you want to come home, but I do not feel safe in having you move back with our relationship in its current condition. Do you have any ideas about how we might repair my trust and our relationship to a point where I feel safe?"<p>You can't say: "Stop lying, give me all your passwords to email and voicemail, log your computer, and stop doing the bimbo and then you can move home but not before!"<p>Instead of you telling him what he should be doing - he should be telling you.<p>Everytime he says: "I want to come home." You should ask: "What is your plan to rebuild my trust and our marriage?"<p>Until HE has a plan that you can live with, there's no point in letting him move home.

Is a Recovery/Rebulding letter a good idea? Has it worked for some?

I've got to agree with Bramble.<p>I was successful with a well written letter in ending my wife's affair (I suspect it was nearing an end anyway, but a few words of love, combined with an "I'm now ready to move on if you cannot break the link once and for all" did the trick).<p>I was only able to write the letter because I knew I could carry out the threat to give up. But it was a high risk strategy and my marriage still has a million miles to go before it is fully repaired.<p>Look carefully at how Bramble proposes you word your letter. Not a list of orders, instructions and demands. Words of love, encouragement, harking back to good times, words of what you need as an individual to be at peace with your mind. If you make a demand with a threat, you have to be strong enough to carry out the threat. Avoid deadlines.<p>Good luck - I really do feel for you.

BR---I changed alot to "I need" statements. Is this what you were referring to?<p>WS<p>You have been my life and love for 33 years. You have colored my world in a very significant way with many good things and some bad things. It is important that you know that I love you. I see things in you that give me hope and these are the reasons that I guess have kept me hanging on throughout all the troubles we have experienced in our marriage. I admit, again, that I have played a part in our marital struggles and again, I say that I am willing to work on my part ONLY if you will work on your part…….Together working and discovering what is needed to fix, mend and make our marriage work. <p>Your affair with (OW) or any other person is absolutely unacceptable and I need to be assured that you will not continue to do this in the future. To make out marriage workable, I could not handle you having any contact with her. You say you love me and you want us to live together but I need to be shown this cause in all areas of life, actions speak louder than words. Since November, you have tossed us back and forth with indecision and powerlessness. Your words have no meaning any more and may not for a while cause I feel like you are either jerking me around big time or your life is unmanageable and you need help. I DO NOT TRUST YOU and I will not live with someone who cannot be honest, upfront, and open with their life. Marriage is about care and protection, joint agreement, among many other things. <p>I am writing this note to make it clear that I am not in agreement with you moving back in the house in May. I do not feel safe with our living together. I need to know that you are seeing a counselor and I need proof that you are working on healthier living, have NO contact with (OW) and are obtaining tools for fixing the damage and destruction that you have caused. With the right tools, I know that anything can be repaired but I am not convinced that you are willing and able to obtain and use the tools available for rebuilding. I will be waiting for you to give me a written plan, as you have promised, on how to begin rebuilding. <p>I can no longer flop back and forth in indecision and uncertainty. I am weary and totally drained. I have nothing left to motivate me to hang on. We are at the end of the merry-go-ride and I will get off. I will get out of this loop and will take the necessary action that I have to take to protect myself and make progress to survive this.<p>Love,
BS

tossedwave,<p>I agree that H must prove by his behavior that there is NC before he moves back in, otherwise your turmoil will continue. Have you specified to him exactly what you are looking for to be assured that he has broken physical and emotional ties with OW? <p>I think your letter is a good idea. Do you and H go out, spend time together away from the house, like courting, I mean? I think your plan would be more effective if you two were spending time together doing things you enjoy. Is that possible?<p>Estes

tossed ~ you are still making demands.<p>Here is what Dr. Harley says about selfish demands:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Demands carry a threat of punishment. If you refuse me, you'll regret it. In other words, you may dislike doing what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see to it that you suffer even greater pain. In the old Godfather terms, a demand is "an offer you can't refuse." <p>People who make demands don't seem to care how others feel. They think only of their own needs. If you find it unpleasant to do what I want, tough! And if you refuse, I'll make it even tougher. <p>Demands depend on power. They don't work unless the demanding one has the power to make good on his threats. The Godfather had the power to make those "unrefusable" offers. <hr></blockquote><p>
You can't say: "I need you to do XYZ".<p>You can say: "Because of your past (and current) dishonesty and your ongoing relationship with OW, I do not trust you and I do not feel safe from betrayal. I can not live with someone I don't trust, therefore, I do not feel safe enough to agree to have you move home in May."<p>You can say: "I believe that marriage must contain exclusive sexual and emotional intimacy, and must operate under complete openess and honesty. I do not have that with you, and therefore I can not agree to your return to our marital home."<p>Or even better, write one of the above sentences and add: "I am not unwilling to work with you to resolve my issues, would you be willing to talk with Steve Harley about forming a plan for our eventual reconciliation? If not, what ideas do you have for rebuilding our marriage?"

tossed,<p>Here I thought you had done a real good job with the letter and then BR makes it even better, follow her suggestions if you can, they are great. I wish that I could write like her, she is awesome with words!!<p>Best wishes to you, make sure of what you are seeing before he moves back in!! What does he plan on doing if his apartment gets rented and he hasn't shown the changes that need to be made, does he think that you will just let him back in!!<p>Dawn

BR---don't see in the letter what you see. Will have to reflect and pray for wisdom to bring clarity. Since I do not know how to stand up to the alcoholics or bullies in my life, I am learning how to express myself. This is what I see as the best way to say what I need to say but I will comtemplate a bit more on it. The letter does not seem demanding to me and I am feeling like I have to tell him what I need-specifically. He is passive-aggressive and needs things spelled out. This is truly an added obstacle in having a healthy relationship with him. <p>Estes, We have not gotten far enough in our discussion about no contact with OW. The main focus right now is getting rid of the bimbo totally. I have asked him repeatedly to read Harley's SAA and find steps to take to totally end his involvement. I have offered to support him in writing a no-contact letter like Harley says but he does not seem to be able to take any steps to get out of the anxiety he has himself in......that is why I do not want him back in our home. I think he is depressed and that is why I think he needs to go to IC...His idea of changing his misery is way different than mine OR HE IS JERKING ME AROUND. I am hoping to discover what the reality of those 2 prospects are. <p>We are not dating or going out cause I don't think we are there yet. I do not think he is out of fog enough to do this. I am puzzled by his lack of contact with me but I think it is because he is so torn between the two of us and he can't get out of the whole he has dug for himself. It appears to me that he just seems to come here whenever and then says all the things he thinks I want to hear just to keep me hanging on and than he is silent for a while to just show up again for whatever. It is wearing me out and I can not do this much longer. But each time it seems to be so promising but ends up to be empty and hollow promises. I still think I may have to end all contact with him but I get very depressed when I do that and struggle so deeply that it is hard to maintain.<p>Daybreak,
What does he plan on doing if his apartment gets rented and he hasn't shown the changes that need to be made, does he think that you will just let him back in!!<p>This is the $64,000 questions and it is keeping me awake at night. I just want to not be concerned and make sure I have been clear in not allowing him to move back.<p>Thank you all so much for all your comments. I take everything that is said and truly take what I need. I appreciate you all being here but am sad for the reason you are here. <p>TW

TW,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I still think I may have to end all contact with him but I get very depressed when I do that and struggle so deeply that it is hard to maintain.
<hr></blockquote><p>I was just about to ask you if this was a Plan B letter. I see from what you wrote that you are far from feeling comfortable with him. I am inclined to go with the idea that he does not come over at all unless the OW is out of the picture. Sounds like the typical cakeman behavior. <p>The depression when not seeing H is understandable. What exactly is it that you struggle with so deeply when you do not see him for a long period of time, just missing him or something else?<p>Estes

TW, I have written two of these letters with help from WAT. I don't know if it had any effect as my H did not give feedback, it dosen't matter though as he knows how I feel and I've set my boundaries. My point being, I've said what I needed to, he heard me and got it, enough said. Its up to him now.<p>I agree with BR, you really cannot make any demands. Setting boundaries is about being assertive and assertiveness is about letting people know what you need without taking away their rights. Lets face it, even though you say he must "do this" to move back in with you, in the end its his life and his decision. You can influence that to some extent by your actions and words. Assertiveness is not being agressive.<p>
You said there were bullies and alcoholics in your life. That's really tough and this situation you find yourself in, is just a part of your journey to find that place where you feel you are worthwhile enough to stand against them. You are tossedwave, you're worth it. You don't have to take that bull****. Challenge the voice inside your head that tells you otherwise, you don't have to believe it.

Quote: I admit, again, that I have played a part in our marital struggles and again, I say that I am willing to work on my part ONLY if you will work on your part&#8230;&#8230;.Together working and discovering what is needed to fix, mend and make our marriage work. <p>Could you just leave it at: I admit, again, that I have played a part in our marital struggles and again, I say that I am willing to work on my part. We could work together, discovering what is needed to fix, mend and make our marriage work. <p>See, if you say that you'll do it ONLY if he does it, it comes across as a little insincere. You want him to realise how serious you are about working on 'us'. <p>The second paragraph is really scarey. I'd hate to get that letter. I'd be crushed, I'd run a mile. I know he dosen't deserve any better, but the fact is, if you make accusations he will run. He's already feeling guilty, don't rub his nose in it. Just say, in as few a words as possible, that to work on the marriage there can only be the two of you and that you cannot work on it while OW is there.<p>Wow, the third paragraph is really scarey too. Damage and destruction!! <p>Could I make a suggestion. Why don't you write a huge letter to your WS, rant, rave, accuse, belittle, threaten and abuse him. Then, instead of giving it to him, burn the bloody thing. You need a big vent girl. Get all this emotion out. Then, when you write with less emotion, compose another letter to him. The letter should not be accusory, blaming, threatening or demanding. It should show WS how much you love him and how much you want to be together.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have asked him repeatedly to read Harley's SAA and find steps to take to totally end his involvement. I have offered to support him in writing a no-contact letter like Harley says but he does not seem to be able to take any steps to get out of the anxiety he has himself in......that is why I do not want him back in our home. I think he is depressed and that is why I think he needs to go to IC.... <hr></blockquote><p>You've asked him repeatedly to read SAA and has he? No, then let it go, he's not ready, he's confused and in the fog. Same with the counselling. I know when people tell me what to do, I immediately have a little voice in my head saying "nup" and I'm not in any fog. The more you tell the more he will resist. Let it go, let him think about it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I am puzzled by his lack of contact with me but I think it is because he is so torn between the two of us and he can't get out of the whole he has dug for himself. It appears to me that he just seems to come here whenever and then says all the things he thinks I want to hear just to keep me hanging on and than he is silent for a while to just show up again for whatever. <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, yes and yes. My H does this a lot. Tells me what I want to hear until he thinks he's got me sitting there again like a puppy dog. I am puzzled by this behaviour too. Read WAT's guidelines for BS. Don't try to figure out the behaviour, because you need a Master in pshychology to work it out-even then I doubt you'd do it.<p>Estes had a good point. What is it that makes you depressed if you don't see H. This is what you should be focussing on fixing- why you are dependant on him to make you feel happy-this is what Plan A is about - finding "YOU". I found, for myself, it was because I had made H my life and abandoned friends, hobbies and myself. I'm working on that now, doing a real Plan A and in the last two weeks have had good results. I don't know if OW is out of the picture, I don't care right now, because she is no reflection on me. If he wants her let them have each other! I'd miss my husband if he left me, but I know he'll be back someday, but it maybe too late then (for him). <p>Try to have some fun, I know its really hard, I have to force myself sometimes, but you need to keep occupied. This will get his attention.

Seahorse---I am hardly ever home cause I have so many things I am doing and enjoying. But some days, I do not enjoy what I do but most of the time I do. I have so many friends who are right there for me and we do lots together....my kids bring me great joy and I am doing all the things I have always done. I always had a full life so finding things to do is not a real need for me. I have to be careful that I balance things out cause I can overdo. Thanks for your suggestions about my letter. I will think them through.<p>Estes---I think I get depressed when I don't see him cause I do miss him. He truly did color my world and some things now are very bland. I shared everything with him. I seem to be the type of person that needs to share alot and my H was someone who was always interested in my life (if I did not talk about us and our struggles).
There is a scraping and tearing of 33 years going on. I may be more dependent on him that I should be but I am truly dealing with that and working through all the wrong feelings I might have for H. I am reading and thinking through a book called Heart to Heart About Men and it is really making sense how we can make men idols and gods. I am working on me regularly but I am overwhelmed with the flopping back and forth. I cannot get on solid ground and stay there. Bottom line is I have to stop my flopping and keep my distance emotionally expecting nothing from him or myself at this point. Don't know how to do this when he is periodically (every 2 to 3 weeks) in my face with his messed up life and "wanting" to come back but it will be shown to me in some way.<p>I am exhausted and I need to rest from thinking and sorting through so much. Pray I will be able to get some distance or space from this draining situation. <p>TW

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but I am overwhelmed with the flopping back and forth. I cannot get on solid ground and stay there. <hr></blockquote><p>This 100% understandable, TW, because H keeps coming in and out of the M. I think it is this constant turmoil, the constant UNKNOWING, that is so draining. The adrenalin is always flowing because you feel threatened all the time. You can't let down your guard. It's almost like knowing a R is over for certain is a relief because you do KNOW.<p>One of the reasons for Plan B (I know you are not ready, yet.) is that the continual going back and forth is so wearing that the BS begins to lose love for the WS. They get emotionally worn down. Plan B separation takes some of the emotional pressure off the BS. It is not to punish the WS. I know you are not to that point yet, but I hate to see you getting worn down more and more. You need to maintain your strength in order to continue to wait out your H's A. Plan B may help you do that. If not that, do draw those boundaries. Ask H to stay away from the house. Sad, isn't it, when you really want to say, Please come home and let's fix this!<p>Take care,
Estes

TosseWave,<p>I see in your letter what BR is saying. It is wise to pray about it & ask God to reveal His thoughts to you. <p>God Bless<p>D.

To Everybody---I have reread through this thread and my letter and I do see some of what you are all saying. I could not see it before cause I was so burdened and heavyhearted. I spent time Monday morning listening to worship music and directing love and praise toward God and he lifted me from ALL the heaviness. <p>I tried to contact WS on Monday to re-enforce the fact that I am not in agreement with his desire to move back home. He was unable to talk at work on Monday and said he would call back. we kept missing each other and he left a message on my voice mail so last night I wrote a quick e-mail (which I know he read at 10 a.m. today) and it said:<p>WS---I appreciate you calling back. I had a doctors apointment tonight so I got home around 8 p.m. I figured you were very busy when you did not get back to me. <p>Wanted to make sure I was clear on Saturday and that you talked to your landlord about keeping the apartment. I am really pleased that you want to come back home but I do not feel safe enough to live with you under the current circumstances. I am not in agreement with your moving back in May. I need to know from you what you think can be done to make me feel safe and how to build trust back. This is not a quick process and I request that you respect my feelings.<p>Love,
BS<p>I am not sure these words are right and the perfect way to say what I feel but it is the best I can do at the moment. I need to learn to express myself firmly with him and I need to do it the best I know how. I am open to learn all I can so I do value input. I just have to be able to process others input better so that it does not shut me down. <p>Well, I have not heard a word from him and not sure what that means. Great thing is that I AM NOT CONCERNED. I have had enough and can no longer stay on this merry-go-round so I am rather relieved that he has backed off. Today, I don't care if I ever see him again cause it is too exhausting. I am sure this feelng won't last. I am losing my ability to care about him and for him so I am setting guidelines for me to keep my distance and protect myself. The saddest thing to me is that I have to PROTECT myself from my H who is supposed to be protecting me. <p>I feel less pressure to send out the letter immediately and now feel I have time to think it through better. I do know that I have to put in writing what I need cause he is not getting it. It seemed like there was a fierce battle going on the last few days but it has let up. I know I can rest now and have some fun stuff planned for the next few days.<p>It is great to have people to bounce things off of and you are all so great and your wisdom astounds me. <p>TW

bumping up update

Hi TW, I think your 'short' email was great. Succinct, yet direct. You told him exactly how you felt, and asked for what you needed.<p>Plan A is so hard. I've felt like going to Plan B so many times, but have resisted and I'm glad. At least I know I will have tried my best and I'm not to blame for the end of the M and I can live with myself even if we don't get back together. <p>I found once I got where you are getting to (ie you go through periods where you don't care if they come back or not) that suddenly things got much easier.

Seahorse---thanks for your support. What you said about not caring whether they come back or not is RIGHT where I am today. I have no energy left for this anymore.... I am empty. Glad you said it got easier for you when you got to this point. I guess when a soul gets to this point the boundaries get clearer and clearer and that leads to easier and easier. I want something to get easy for me soon.<p>Still have not heard from WS but still see his apartment in the paper for rent. Boy, is he gonna have a problem when he has no where to live. I thought I had seen everything but when a man can assume he can do whatever he wants, that man has got some rude awakenings coming. I just pray that I have the strength to do whatever it takes to stand firm and do what is healthiest for me.<p>Thanks again for your support. Sorry you are in the same boat as I am. Hope you keep moving in the best direction to find contentment in the important things in life.<p>TW

I know that tired feeling, once you concentrate on you it will come and go, but things do get better when you start to let go. Just focus on you. <p>WS seem to think they're God for a moment. I amazed at what my H thinks he can get away with. It will all come crashing down soon. <p>Anyway, keep coming back here to vent.<p>[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</p>