My H seems utterly incapable of understanding that yes, it DOES hurt this much and what he did IS that bad.<p>He still thinks he did nothing wrong. That lying to me so he could spend time with other women was just no big deal.<p>Of course he really didn't lie, he just didn't tell me. And they weren't girlfriends, they were just co-workers and "staff." So what's the big deal?<p>He's sorry he hurt me and says he won't do it again, so why do we need to discuss it any further?<p>If I still want to talk about it and get the details so I am no longer in the dark, he furiously says I am "manipulating" him.<p>If I am angry, he insists it's not from pain -- it's because I am "throwing fits" and just want to "punish" him.<p>anyone else in this boat? did *anything* get through and open their eyes?

I know my H does not want to talk about it either... as it makes him guilty, they hate to face what they have done. I know I heard some wisdom on this earlier in my journey.. and I am sure you will get some posted... I just can't think of it right now... Do not force him to talk... are you two in counseling... ? have you done plan a? are you in a plan? <p>good luck toyou, I see the pain and definitely understand it.<p>H

how is it that they do not see the pain they cause?? he has lived with me for over twenty years and i have NEVER reacted like this to anything before. but he thinks i am making things up now and deliberately losing my mind just to "punish" him.<p>he lied to me so he could spend time with her.<p>he lied to me, and was happy to do it, so he could get in his car and drive off alone with her.<p>but he can't understand why this would hurt me.

Hi PB,
Been there.... <p>Yeah, my FWH saw my pain as emotional manipulation control and blackmail. It took several stages for him to realise fully that I was hurting, yes, THAT much....<p>He came into full awareness only in early January this year, on our first and so far only session with a marriage counsellor. The MC talked with us for an hour, asked some pointed questions, then told my FWH that from his experience he'd say the damage to the marriage and to me was irreparable, there was no quick fix, and he wouldn't waste his time or ours seeing us again. Then he turned to me, said he'd recommend a divorce, said that my H is emotionally abusive and recommended that I get intensive counselling as my background has made me abnormally capable of tolerating destructive levels of abuse. He said I would be "absolutely crazy" to ever trust my H again.<p>We left, kinda stunned, and went to the beach. All I could say was "Well, I hope she was worth what she cost, but seeing I'm the one who paid for her I suppose it doesn't matter to you." <p>H was left with nowhere to go and nowhere to hide. Since then he has been very different. He was forced to face reality in one fell swoop, and he liked it about as much as I liked Dday.<p>We are still together and I'd say we're in recovery. I'm in IC, Adult Children of Alcoholics and CoDependents Anonymous. H is now working through Harley materials and was very much taken with "Getting the Love you Want." He is falling over himself to prove that he's completely open. He gives every indication of being very much in love with me. I love him, but I'm no longer in love with him, and fear that there is a permanent degree of withdrawal in me. I have a hyper-vigilant guard, every time I feel my heart melting this voice says "Oh no you don't!" I'll be working on me until I'm healed. My issues are now as firmly between us as XOW used to be.<p>So it does happen with even the most passive-aggressive of conflict-avoiders. Do you think you'd be able to move on if your H would admit he done you exceeding wrong?

Do you think you would have any luck trying to get him to "put himself in your shoes?" Would he be able to imagine how he might feel if you had been unfaithful to him? My WH has not reacted as yours, but when I have my down times now, I sometimes have to ask him to think of how he would feel if he were in the same position.(he thinks that since I've had a good day or two, I should have a good week, and when I've had a good week or 2, I should have a good month, etc. He doesn't like setbacks!! He sees them as unproductive and they probably are, but they are also very normal and can't be turned off like a light switch).

<<<Do you think you'd be able to move on if your H would admit he done you exceeding wrong?>>><p>If I thought he really "got it," yes, I probably would.<p>I'll know he "gets it" when he starts talking to me about his past experiences with these women, and willingly gives me the details so I'm not STILL sitting in the dark.<p>I'll know when he realizes that these women are not "wonderful," but are the worst sort of people: the ones who happily sucked up to and dated a married man and didn't give a good g*ddamn about how that might affect his wife *or* his marriage *or* his family.<p>I'll know when it really and truly dawns on him that he LIED TO ME so that he could go out alone with other women -- and that he did this not once, but over a TEN-YEAR PERIOD.<p>I'll know when he stops happily going off to events on his own when I am too broken to handle them.<p>I'll know when he stops believing that if he just ignores all of this long enough, it will go away.<p>When he quits trying to convince me that all of this was really ok and excusable and justifiable, I'll know.

<<<Do you think you would have any luck trying to get him to "put himself in your shoes?" Would he be able to imagine how he might feel if you had been unfaithful to him?>>><p>No luck at all. I did try this, hoping for some empathy, but I don't think it even registered.<p>He has never, ever had to worry about this with me. I made sure of that over all the years we have been together, so it's just not something that could ever be real to him.<p>More's the pity.<p>I have found absolutely nothing that can get through to him and cause him to believe that he even *might* have done something wrong. He swears he didn't sleep with any of these women, and he firmly believes it's only cheating if you have sex -- so he has done nothing wrong and I am just going to have to accept that.<p>Merely ripping your wife's heart out with lies, so you can put your favorite female co-worker in your car and spend a nice private hour-and-a-half lunch with her, is most certainly *not* cheating.

Hi PB,
It may happen that you never get the kind of acknowledgement you want. Your H does not believe he did anything really wrong, because he didn't have sex with any of these women. So he's just going to get more and more defensive and offensive on the subject. <p>Is that acknowledgement as important to you as having a good marriage?<p>I'm not belittling your need. I had it too!<p>However, being now over the hump, I can see that there are more ways to kill a cat than by choking it with butter.<p>If you still love your H and want to be married, it might be better to approach it from another angle. Instead of You did, You lied, You hurt me. How about "I am unhappy, and need you to reassure me. I feel unloved and neglected when you go to parties without me. I feel rejected when we are in public and you barely acknowledge me. I would like you to introduce me with a note of pride in your voice. (Boy, did that one really hurt me! Being ignored, and once passed over as being "These are the people I'm travelling with!") "<p>Tell him things like "I get bored and lonely at home all the time. I would like to go out with you occasionally." <p>You see, what I'm getting at here is that if you can work on building in the things you both need into the marriage, the time will come when your H realises how good it is with you and is overcome with horror at the way he has treated you.<p>The lying is a tough one. I can't take it either. Again, maybe just focus on you. "I feel unhappy when you take other women out to lunch and lie about it. I feel that if these were just business/coworker lunches there would be no need to lie. Secrecy to me means there is something to hide and I feel as if I'm being deceived."<p>It can be done. My FWH has learnt slowly to tell the truth. He still is reticent on some things he's afraid I'll blow up on, but has also realised that I plain enjoy conversation about our days, and the interaction, so it's not all suspicion and doubt on my part.<p>I am focusing on my own issues now. I slip back into codependency if I'm not careful, and that tips me into depression. Then I do get suspicious and nasty!!! So for my sake, I'm Plan Aing ME!!! H loves the overflow, but that is the byproduct. It took 27 months to hear my H say the words I longed to hear, about how he did me wrong and bitterly regrets it. But when they did come, they came from his heart. At first he also believed he hadn't really sinned because his EA was all electronic, so no sex had occurred. His opinion on that one has changed.<p>Big cyberhug. I know you're hurting and the pain is exacerbated by your H's denial of your pain. It's like having your wounds sanded with a belt sander daily. I'm afraid that all you can do about this situation is to withdraw from it. Turn the whole thing around so the focus is on the marriage, and put your energy into you. Whether or not your H ever gives you that apology, you can only benefit from applying Plan A to your self.

Hi PB, I guess this is a very common issue for all of us who feel they have been B. To be lied to and have another receive what we wanted from our BS is untolerable, hurtful and very very painful. No Matter how great or small. It is like being thankful the shark ONLY ATE your arms.....he didn't do the most damaged possible
!
If we could just hear some sense that the WS would take responsibility for their actions and be accountable for their choices, I think we would be given some sense of relief. To know we are not "crazy" for feeling the way we do, are being rational in feeling so terribly devasted! Maybe that is it, we want acknowledgement that they realize what they have done to destroy our sense of commitment and are willing to make life style changes to insure that the behavior will not continue. And furthermore, are willing to commit to making the marriage better and a more satisfying relationship for both.

Wow, that would be nice!<p>Dr H says don't expect it! They need to rationalize their unrational behavior inorder to justify such horrible choices which hurt the one they vowed to love and protect. The most we can hope for is "Just Compensation".MBDr H talks about forgiveness and resentment and says the only ways to deal with these feelongs is to work toward making your marriage most rewarding for the both of you.( even when you don't feel like it, you will be a better person regardless of the outcome.) <p>Tough one, huh?<p>I know if I can try to remeber a quote a friend sent, it helped me to look at our relationship differently once my husband began trying to work on our marriage again.
"Mistakes are the port holes to recovery."
I guess if you look at mistakes as opportunities to evaluate things so as to make them better, once everyone agrees they want them to be better, you are half where there.
So really isn't that what we want? Our WS to say they want it to be better and are willing to try to work on making the relationship better? An apology would be nice, and maybe when enough love has been redeposited into everyones Love Banks, "I'm sorry for the pain I caused you" will come.<p>Hang in there and try to focus on the positive, "Baby Steps", my sister says. We didn't learn to accomplish anything right off the bat, it took PEP, patience, experiences and practice. This comes from one who is trying very hard to do so also! But Dr H says he knows it can be acommplished, if you want it to be and are willing to follow his plan. He is in the succesful business of saving marriages, he should know!
Good Luck to you and all of us struggling to hear those magic words...."I am sorry for the pain I caused, I will no longer be the source of your pain...Rule of Protection applied."

<<<How about "I am unhappy, and need you to reassure me. I feel unloved and neglected when you go to parties without me...>>><p>Sorry, dear -- been there, done that. I started over two years ago with exactly that, talking rationally, reasonably and calmly about how this was causing me pain and might damage our relationship -- and it was worse than useless.<p>All he did was grin like the cat who ate the canary. Woohoo, wifey is *jealous!* And you know what that means -- she'll have to try even harder now to keep me if ya know what I mean, nudge nudge wink wink!<p>Boy, if it was good before, it was GREAT now. The only thing better than a wife at home and female fun friends at work is a JEALOUS wife at home and female fun friends at work!<p>Getting a little more assertive about how his behavior was terribly disrespectful and very, very hurtful to me only annoyed him. He got patronizing and condescending to my face but changed nothing behind my back.<p>It was only when I finally went absolutely ballistic that I even got his attention - but by then it was far too late. Now his response was to get angry, because I simply would not let this go without cleaning up the mess -- without getting my questions answered -- and he flat-out refuses to talk about any of these women with me. <p>If I can't simply move on, forget it, *never* ask questions and just take his word on everything from now on, he has made it very clear to me that I can rot in hell.<p>To this day he will admit to doing nothing wrong. And if there's nothing wrong with what you did, why on earth should you have to change it?<p>The pain comes from the fact that he knew, he KNEW how I felt about his interacting with these women, KNEW how much it hurt me, had been caught flat-out in lies, and STILL insisted he hadn't really lied and hadn't really done anything wrong.<p>Now he thinks that I am "manipulating him" and "throwing a fit" whenever he sees what pain really looks like. I told him that what he calls a "fit" is really a knife in my heart with his last friend's name on it -- but this just makes him angry. I guess if the b*tch was worth enough to him that he would lie to me just for a little private time with her, I shouldn't be surprised.<p><<<An apology would be nice, and maybe when enough love has been redeposited into everyones Love Banks, "I'm sorry for the pain I caused you" will come.>>><p>Oh, I've already heard "I'm sorry I hurt you." And when he first said this, I said, "Then please tell me it was wrong. I've never heard you say that. It would mean a lot to me to hear you say that you truly feel your time spent with them was wrong."<p>Silence. Dead, glaring silence.<p>He can't even lie about that one.<p>There is a huge difference between "I'm sorry I hurt you," and "I'm sorry for what I did." All he's saying is that he's sorry I got in the way (and spoiled all his fun in the process.) <p>He's not one bit sorry for spending all that time with the girls. It was GREAT while it lasted (gee, ten years go by fast, don't they?) and boy, he'd go back to that lifestyle in a heartbeat if only he could. If only I'd go back to staying out of his personal life and just being there for him when he came home at the end of the day.<p>I have to live with knowing that every day of my life.

I am the type that would be so tempted to give him a dose of his own medicine. Especially since he was such an [censored] about stopping, it would be one thing if you didn't have to go nuts to get thru. My husband knows I have every bit the ability to go out and flirt myself. I must be very lucky though, my H is not a major flirt, and tends to stick to hanging out with men at work. I noticed this about him before we even met.

psycho_b,<p>Yea, my ex-h acted like yours. He’s never owned up to any of his affairs, even when I put the evidence in front of him. This is not unusual. But you see, he is my EX. I could not live with such a cad.<p>What your are doing is not working. From the sounds of it, he actually thinks he’s benefiting from him. So you need to do something different. Just about anything different. I highly recommend that you read “The Divorce Remedy” . The book “Divorce Busting” is the older version of it. Either one will give you some great ideas of what you can do differently. If he sees you as a jealous wife, then stop acting jealous. Ignore him.

More of the same is just not going to work. As for his talking to you about what he’s been up to. That will not happen until he sees it’s in his best interest. First you have to get his attention. You don’t have that right now.

Hi everyone. I can relate a lot to what everyone is saying here. We just passed the 2 year recovery mark. We have done really well and in general our marriage is better than the day we got married. But I still feel some of the issues discussed here.<p>Right from the beginning my husband admitted fault....that it was his mistake, he was wrong, he was sorry he hurt me, it never should have happened, and that he would spend his life making it up to me. I got some details, facts, and reasons why he had an affair, and we had many talks....but very little feelings from him - he has always had trouble with emotional intimacy (discussing his pain, feelings of guilt, etc.). In fact, he actually said to me regarding the affair itself "they are my feelings and thoughts, and I DON'T have to and WON'T share them with you, they are my issues and I will deal with them myself". <p>He could not understand how much this hurt me and how this was not helping our recovery. I think part of it was he was scared that if he shared with me that he would lose me. I wanted him to feel safe with me and to trust me with his feelings. I wanted him to yell at me "I hated and loved you at the same time, I was angry, I wanted to hurt you...." or whatever. So I didn't force him. Instead I loved him and worked on us.
I put myself in his shoes, and listened to other WS and their feelings. He worked really hard making things up to me. <p>He has changed and grown in so many ways and has become a wonderful husband and father. Through his actions and body language I have seen the guilt, remorse, and understanding of the pain that he has caused me. BUT he still has not faced his issues or improved much with emotional intimacy and it continues to show up in our relationship. I cannot have a discussion with him about emotional intimacy, boundaries, withholding, something that has triggered me, etc. without it ending it a fight that it's about the affair and I'm not letting go. I continue to get the feeling that he is sorry for the affair but continues to justify it in his mind.
This is the way he is....in every fight we have that he treats me badly I never get an apology that he was wrong, just a "I'm sorry we fought and you got hurt" (and he verbally confirms that he is not apologizing for his action of treatly me unfairly).<p>So I continue to love him and try to accept in my mind that I know the truth. That deep down inside that he knows the truth and cannot admit it to me or himself. I have tried everything I can think of to support him, encourage him, and make a safe environment for him to open up and be vulnerable to me. <p>I am so happy when I read success stories here about how the WS has finally let go and has become vulnerable to the BS. But I think we need to realize that there are WS who will never change, or will need a lot more time. I am forever reminding myself that I cannot control my husband or force him to face his issues (at the same time not letting him control and manipulate me). It's really hard and frustrating, and sometimes I'm ready to give up. <p>I gotta run....sorry so long and not sure if I made a point....right now he is being the model husband while avoiding talking to me about areas that we are back sliding in....thanks for listening to my vent.<p>JJ

<<<I cannot have a discussion with him about emotional intimacy, boundaries, withholding, something that has triggered me, etc. without it ending it a fight that it's about the affair and I'm not letting go. I continue to get the feeling that he is sorry for the affair but continues to justify it in his mind.>>><p>JJ, to me this is NOT healing. This is just him making you stuff down your own feelings so he doesn't have to feel guilty.<p>Gee, why should HE have to feel guilty? He can excuse and justify everything. Sure, some guys cheat, but his case was completely different! There were good reasons why it was ok for HIM to do it!<p>My own husband does this too. He gets VERY angry over exactly the things you have listed and insists he doesn't see why he should have to be the "@sshole." He warns me that he can tolerate my anger for a while, but that eventually it's going to make HIM angry too and I had better understand that.<p>He just can't get it across to me that I'm making him feel guilty - like an "@sshole" - by bringing up his history with these women, and don't I understand that he's got nothing to feel guilty about?<p>How is it "healing" if he has to feel like he did something wrong? I'm supposed to make him feel GOOD, just like I used to, don't I understand that? If he has to say it was wrong to spend all that time with other women, he would look bad! And how could it possibly have been wrong in the first place, when his company has greatly rewarded him for being such a GREAT manager?<p>No, healing is about going out and having fun, and coming home and having lots of sex, and NEVER asking him ANY questions about any of these women ever again. That's his idea of "healing," and if I try to tell him I need more than that he will make me very, very sorry I asked.

PB, you and I know it's not healing, and we know exactly what they are doing. But what's the answer besides what I am doing? <p>It's the old Catch22 -- he has an answer for everything and can turn everything around. When I try to talk about the issues (boundaries, etc.)
he gets highly insulted and replies that I think he doesn't know anything, I have no trust or faith in him that I even bring these things up, and things are going so well why do I have to shake things up again (I get often get accused that I can't be happy being happy).<p>I reply that I don't know what he thinks or feels because he never tells me -- that I just want to make sure we have the same goals and are on the same sheet of music. Then it proceeds to the "this is all about the affair" or I get the "yes" answers and "enough for day, we'll talk more about it tomorrow". And there's the reverse psychology too....I am trying to control and manipulate him, I'm not dealing with my issues, etc. The circle goes on and on......<p>Actually, I can only control what I can control.
Mr.JJ pre-affair had the habit of verbally abusing me (You should have heard that discussion! He didn't deny what he did to me, just that we disagree on the definition of verbal abuse and he refused to acknowledge that what he was doing was abuse.....I was just too sensitive and he changed his ways because they didn't work, not that they were wrong.) Anyway, I made great progress in changing his behavior after reading
"The Verbally Abusive Realationship". When he started in I confronted his behavior and gave him a few shocks along the way -- I stood up for myself and refused to let me treat me this way.
I think I need to review that book and start shutting him down again....not to control him but to protect myself.....refuse to play his games.<p>It all comes down to he may never really deal with his issues....and I have to decide whether I love him enough, am happy enough and are enough of my needs being met, to accept that this is the way things are. He is a good man that made a terrible mistake. I continue to convince myself that he could have never made the growth and changes he has made if he didn't realize on some level that he was wrong. I continue to pray and have faith that he learned a lesson that will never be repeated....it's so hard to do sometimes when this basic issue keeps showing up and you're never really sure he got it.<p>Sorry so much about me......best wishes to you to keep strong and hanging in there.<p>Hugs,
JJ

The bottom line here is lack of insight. If he cannot see that he did anything wrong, then there is nothing to stop him from continuing to do it. THAT is the source of pain. If he will not analyze with you what he did, how it happened, what boundaries were crossed, why it was inappropriate, etc., then it is going to happen again, and he will feel justified doing it, of course, because it was never wrong in the first place.<p>If he was a bank robber and couldn't be convinced what he was doing was wrong, you'd have to decide how long you were going to live him once you figured out he was not going to admit that bank robbery was a crime. It really boils down to you now. If you could have gotten through to him, you would have. He sounds like an intelligent man. He is not ignorant or clueless. He may be posturing that way, but he knows exactly what's what, and HE is manipulating YOU, and then he's projecting that onto you when you inconvenience him with logic.<p>I believe the need of a BS to feel safe is a legitimate one that no amount of meeting other needs will satisfy. My H has been working on other ENs, but it simply does not matter while this one is neglected. It makes me think of what Dr. Harley says about trying to meet the WS's ENs while they are in withdrawal from the OP--it has very little to no effect until the worst of the withdrawal symptoms are over. I think the necessary processing of the infidelity is the same thing for the BS--this need supercedes all others.

<<<I believe the need of a BS to feel safe is a legitimate one that no amount of meeting other needs will satisfy. My H has been working on other ENs, but it simply does not matter while this one is neglected.>>><p>Exactly.<p>If you don't have the truth, and can't get the truth, you have nothing.<p>Psycho_B***h