As you may or may not know, the last time I talked to Steve Harley he said I may have to be the one to bring up another "option" with my W if she isn't willing to call him on her own. I figure this is something I need to do as a last resort before initiating the D proceedings, just to know I layed all the cards out on the table. I found out yesterday that custody mediation is in a couple of weeks, so time is of the essence. I'm thinking of giving her the following note to read in front of me (hoping to get an immediate response): <p>"I'm sure you feel our marriage is hopeless and your only options are staying in an unhappy marriage or going through a messy divorce and custody battle. I believe there's another option. Steve Harley has worked with alot of couples that were far worse off than we are, and has been able to help them work through their problems, reconnect and regain the emotional intimacy that was missing in thier marriages by following a the steps he laid out for them. Many of them have gone on to have better marriages than they ever had by learning new ways to communicate and meet each other's needs. Are you willing to let him help us or at least consider it? We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I think we owe it to ourselves and to our daughter to exhaust every possible option to save our marriage and hopefully avoid this mess." <p>What do you think? I have an appt with Steve on Friday. He was going to advise me on how to approach this subject with my W, but the impending mediation hastens the need to address this option. You both know, as do I, that she will not be willing to try anything, but at least I'll know I tried everything. At that point, I plan on starting the D process. My first step will be to have W and OM deposed. I had hpoed to do that before mediation, but that appears unlikely. Any advice???<p>sad dad<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

dad,<p>has she shown a willingness to give up OM?

sad - your note makes perfect sense to me and likely will to (other [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) rational people. But you know who you're dealing with, so I'm with you in expecting no positive reaction.<p>But I'm also with you in playing all your cards before you fold and having done the same thing, I can predict that in doing so, you'll end up guilt free and ready to move on if the divorce occurs.<p>My normal attitude when things seem urgent is to advise that they may not really be. With that in mind, I suggest you wait until after your Friday appt. with Steve - only three days away - before acting with this note. My only other suggestion is to modify the note to allow her some control by permitting her to choose a counselor: "Will you please consider letting him, or another counselor of your choosing, help us?" If nothing else, this will negate her potential future excuse that you prevented recovery by insisting on "one of those crazy phone counselors instead of a REAL counselor." Take it from me, they'll find any excuse when they start running low.

star,<p>He's had never admitted EA, so there's nothing for HER to give up. I'm not even sure if he's still in the picture.<p>wat,<p>You're right about the urgency. I had hoped to have them deposed before mediation just in case there's something helpful to be gained, but it won't happen in two weeks. If you recall, OM called me a couple of months ago and told me that my W had talked about killing herself. It would be nice to have that on record before mediation. This is the initial mediation session, I assume not the only one, so there may be another opportunity.<p>sad dad

okay sad dad,<p>here's my opinion...this is coming from a woman's perspective....i find your letter really clinical. it lacks the warmth and emotion that i think would motivate a woman to believe you are really serious. i don't know your wife...i just know that it probably wouldn't change my mind if i was feeling that love was missing from my marriage. sorry...it says the right things, but maybe not in the right way. just my opinion...and it's free....so....

also...what's this thing about reading it in front of you? so you're planning on just standing there, handing her the letter and expecting her to speak? sounds a little impersonal too...i'm sure your situation is complicated and communication is probably strained and in a state....but if you really want to make a last stand....are you sure this is how you want to do it?

star,<p>I have talked to her about wanting to save our marriage before and written several heartfelt letters, to no avail. I have never discussed a way we can save our marriage however. Good points though, that's why I plan on talking to Steve first. Thanks!<p>sad dad<p>P.S. Take it easy on us guys, we're not God's most evolved creatures, you know!

sad,<p>i was really hoping to get one more post with you before i have to leave, but the board is slow today. i'll check back in this afternoon....but in the meantime....please rethink this a little bit....try to contact Steve....or just wait. maybe others will have more to say.

Hey SD- I think Star might be right in her suggestion that yoiu warm up the tone of that letter a bit. Also I think you should avoid using the phrase- 'couples who are far worse than we are' - instead you could substitute with 'relationships that are in need of help' or something similar. When do you plan to give this to her? This Friday? Take care- lifeismessy

SD,<p>Plese do not think I'm "picking on you" or that I do not understand how you feel....just read my sig line, and you will see I've been through a whole host of emotions/circumstances since this "Odyssey" began almost a year ago. <p>First of all, I understand wanting to try *everything* you can think of to save your M. I understand SH suggested this option to you. However, I would caution that you may be tyring to force things to happen before they are "ready." (Maybe that doesn't really make sense).<p>I mean, if she isn't really ready to "listen" or counsel, or talk aobut restoring your M, then you will be simply wasting your breath. I know. I've tried. I talked. I wrote letters. I "preached." I reasoned. I sent him stuff to think about. I asked him to THINK ABOUT IT. At every turn, he INSISTED HE KNEW HE WANTED TO DO THIS. Still does.<p>We tend to think "If WS would just LISTEN to me, I KNOW what I'm talking about!! I'ved found our solutions!! I KNOW what we've done wrong." <p>NOT!! They are not ready!! It is wasting your time and effort to try to talk/coerce/cajole/beg/ask/demand/reason w/your spouse. Am I saying do NOTHING before giving up on your M? Absolutely not! I'm just saying Your idea that you must do this NOW may be your own flawed thinking. And may in NO WAY indicate that there would not be a "breakthrough" in the future. I would ask that you "hang in" as long as possible.<p>Just "throwing out your pearls" and then walking away and being justified in saying, "Well, I've done all I could. She won't listen, I'm done." isn't necessarily ALL YOU COULD DO. Waiting just a little while longer might have resulted in a better final outcome.<p>Please do not be in such a hurry. "Things" seem to have to evolve at their own prescribed rate of speed, curious as that is to imagine.<p>I applaud you for hanging in there for as long as you have. These "situations" we all have found ourselves in are not for the faint of heart!<p>May God Bless,

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad dad:
<strong>If you recall, OM called me a couple of months ago and told me that my W had talked about killing herself. It would be nice to have that on record before mediation.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmmmmm - what says information like this can't be introduced outside of a deposition? I've never participated in mediation, so I don't know the drill, but I believe it's not a legal proceeding and hearsay may have some standing. In the least, you should be able to express your direct observations and other bits of information, such as what OM said, and let the mediator do his/her job. Just a thought.<p>WAT

star, lim, <p>I'll talk to Steve and "spruce" it up a little. Remember, it was 6am when I wrote this. I didn't even have my first cup of coffee.<p>lupo,<p>I understand what you're saying, that there's no point in bringing this up if she's not at least considering restoring the marriage. Steve pointed out that even if she is having second thoughts (which I doubt), she may not even see a possible way out of this. Thus, at least suggesting a possibility, even one she's not willing to consider at this time, plants the seed. <p>But I do agree with you, it's probably not a good idea to throw this option out there, and if/when she delines, to just give up. It gives the impression it's my way or no way. But, it's getting increasingly harder to continue living in the same house. If she would only agree to sell the house and share custody in the interim (as I suggested), I think I could take a step back and recharge my battery.<p>wat,<p>I'll have to ask my lawyer about this. I'd like to be able to introduce this tidbit of info, even without proof to back it up.<p>Thanks to all of you. That's why I come here, so I have a sounding board before I react.<p>sad dad<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

sad dad-<p>Seems like our paths are very similar. I had such a discussion with SH a few weeks ago. He suggested having the type of 'talk' you are describing, with my W, to really pin her down to see what she wanted to do before I made any other decisions.<p>So one night I sat with my W and asked her if she thought there was any chance for repairing our marriage. She said she thought there was. Since she has stated she didn't like the Harley methods (too much structure and accountability), I asked her how we were going to work on our marriage. In other words, what was her plan? She said she didn't have one. She said that maybe if we were just civil that it would happen. I told her that it seemed like she was forcing me to make all of the decisions. This always gives her the opportunity to critize any action or plan that I formulate. She can just keep being critical of my action. She had no comment besides, "I don't know." I also told my W that since she doesn't have a plan that a person in a black robe is going to come up with a new plan. Again, she had no comment.<p>SH asked me a difficult question. He asked if I was prepared for a divorce. He knew this is not what I wanted but, to proceed in this manner would mean that I am ready to accept being divorced. I guess I've reached the end of my rope and have decided that this is the best course of action for my family. It is not your typical Harley Plan A/B formula. There still are on-going affairs and continued contact with OM, that is not so unusual I suppose. However, I skipped Plan B before filing because actions my W has taken put her and the family in jeopardy. I am unwilling to leave the kids and the house while she continues doing what she is doing. Filing for a D and asking for separation while the case is before the judge will kind of force us into Plan B.<p>Maybe your W has said things that would make it easier for a judge to give you custody and sole possession of the residence before the case is finalized. I think this is a very difficult route to take but maybe one that you could use to meet your goals.<p>I wouldn't take lightly your W's threat about the tapped conversations. I've been told that the FCC is very clear on this issue. I was advised that I needed to make sure that I did not have any such evidence in my possession and that my W could not find such evidence. Unfortunately, this really isn't an issue about your relationship. Arguing about tapped conversations just makes things get even uglier.<p>Good luck. I talk with SH tomorrow to get his advice on how to proceed to still make this look like marriage recovery is still possible in the face of filing for a divorce. I also would like his advice on sharing the news with relatives and children with the idea being that marriage recovery is still feasible and a goal. However, the longer my W continues the lies and deceit, the more difficult I'm finding it to see how we can stay married.<p>HoFS

Well, I finally talked about mediation with my lawyer. She was able to put my mind at ease. First of all, she never rec'd notice from my W's lawyer regarding date, time and place. She called him and he is going to fax the info to her. Secondly, she explained the process to me. It's not a legal proceeding, the mediator is there simply to fascilitate some type of agreement. The proceeding is sealed, the mediator can not be called to testify on anything, and he/she does not make recommendations to the court. Neither I or my W have to agree to anything and there may be 2 0r 3 sessions required before the matter is turned over to the courts. My only expectations are that the mediator will help my W realize that this isn't th 1950's and the system isn't as cut and dried as she believes thinks. I also hope the mediator can compel my W to agree to sell the house and share custody of of daughter in the interim in the best interests off all. I'll consider that a moral victory, but it's very likely this first session will accomplish nothing. <p>sad dad

sad dad ... which state do you reside ?, very interesting. In CA, Family Service mediator gives recomendation and could be call to testify for her recomendation.<p>keep us posted. -RH-

redhat,<p>Ilinois.<p>sad dad

Hi SD- Hopefully that mediation WILL help your W see that the custody issue is not cut and dried. It may take a few sessions of it though before that sinks in to her. Do you know when your first session will be? What is your W's attitude when you mention going to it? lifeismessy

lim,

I still don't know exactly where or when, but I should know soon. I haven't talked about it with her. I talked to Steve Harley today and it was helpful. I won't go into details, but he's got me headed in the right direction regardless of what happens in the next few weeks. Talk to ya soon.<p>sad dad