Thanks for input Espoir- yes today I have thought seriously about plan B> I did try a plan B without knowing it back in November but failed pretty quickly cos I was in a mess and had to see him! Not in the same place now and think it may be possible but need to be certain so I don't fail at first hurdle. You are right he is certainly having cake and eating it but I do have to think of my boys life and feelings as well. So I have to have the whole situation well thought out before going ahead. Any thoughts on successful plan B with boys aged 13,11 and 8 when H lives 150 miles away and boys want to be at home and able to play with friends much appreciated. The boys complain at me over changes to routine not Dad and I get the blame. Jante

Espoir, you said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>" It sounds to me like you've done a good plan A, but it isn't working because your H is now able to be as selfish as he wants." <hr></blockquote><p>... plan A is NOT intended as a plan to get the WS to do anything ! ! ! .... So, using the WS's reaction to plan A as a "measure of success" is incorrect!<p>Plan A is working if Jante is feeling stronger about herself and creating a positive identity and self worth. Plan A success is measured by Jante's OWN growth and well-being.<p>Plan A ends when Jante has exhausted her love for her WH .... Then Jante must move to plan B to avoid going totally bankrupt in her love for WH.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

No love is not enough. Love does not protect us. It does not ensure that the ones we love, or the ones who love us will not hurt us. It does not guarentee that they will nurture us either.<p>Love only surves to make us more vulnerable to those we love.<p>It takes a strong person to love another, protect and care for them, and forgive them when needed.

Thanks for your input folks- P if I understand correctly having plan A-ed for last 6 months and feeling strong and happy with myself I am succeeding. The fact that H is being a cake eater is not an issue then?
I still love him, and accept that all our married life he was bad with finance and in someways nothing has really changed and I shouldn't have been surprised by yesterdays letter. Therefore as I accept that that is H and I still love him despite that then I should go on plan A-ing and spending time when he is willing to come and spend time with the family?
Hope I've got that straight. Jante

[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

I have thoughts but can't post now. I'll try to post Monday morning US time.

Dear Jante,<p>Respectfully I must disagree with Pepper’s interpretation, although I do love her advice.
Pepper quotes me:
" It sounds to me like you've done a good plan A, but it isn't working because your H is now able to be as selfish as he wants." <p>Pepper responds:
... plan A is NOT intended as a plan to get the WS to do anything ! ! ! .... So, using the WS's reaction to plan A as a "measure of success" is incorrect! <p>But Harley says:<p><<With this background, we're ready to talk about Plan A and plan B. These two plans are used in the first stage of marital recovery to separate the unfaithful spouse from the lover.>> (In other words the goal of these plans is to stop the affair so that marital recovery can be possible.)<p><< Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover. >> (AVOID LOVEBUSTERS)<p><<On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again. >> (Again, the goal of Plan A- total separation from the lover).<p><<In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.>> (MEET EN’S) <p><<In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.>> <p>"it sounds like you've done a good Plan A, but it isn't working...."<p><<But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again. >><p>“……because your H is now able to be as selfish as he wants”<p><<Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.>><p><<So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.>>
<<Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery.>><p>You say:“Thanks for your input folks- P if I understand correctly having plan A-ed for last 6 months and feeling strong and happy with myself I am succeeding. The fact that H is being a cake eater is not an issue then?”<p>But it’s my impression that the fact he is a cake eater is an issue….. if your goal is to restore the marriage. Of course some spouses are willing to settle for the crumbs the WS will give them- and Harley warns that Plan B can lead to divorce. And some people are able to do a lengthy lengthy Plan A (like Lostva) until their WS comes out of it. <p>Pepper says:
“Plan A is working if Jante is feeling stronger about herself and creating a positive identity and self worth. Plan A success is measured by Jante's OWN growth and well-being.”

I believe this is a byproduct of Plan A. Additional benefits of Plan A are 1) that the BS feels that they did everything possible to save the marriage, they have no regrets. 2)the BS attends to their own personal growth and can feel that they have learned techniques that will make them a wonderful partner for their WS or if the marriage fails, someone else.<p>Pepper says:
“Plan A ends when Jante has exhausted her love for her WH .... Then Jante must move to plan B to avoid going totally bankrupt in her love for WH.” <p>Yes, I agree with Pepper. Harley says 1) Plan B may be necessary when the WS can not break the addiction 2) Plan B protects the love of the BS for the WS because the continued affair is a lovebuster 3) Divorce is always a possible outcome of Plan B because the separation can become permanent.<p>Jante, you mention that you tried a Plan B without your H knowing. But Harley says you should tell your spouse you are going into Plan B- and you explain why in a Plan B letter. There are sample Plan B letters in SAA and probably somewhere on the site. And Plan B often requires intermediaries to handle contact. I think the letter is a crucial part of Plan B.<p>Gosh I hope I haven’t completely confused you with this post. I am going to post again with some more thoughts on another post.

Dear Jante ... I hope I'm not going to confuse you either ... because, I am going to agree with Espoir's last post [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] You do everything you can in plan A now, so you will have pride in yourself and fewer regrets later.<p>Are you at the end of your rope?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>PS ..... Thanks Espoir, for the excellent clean-up job!

<<Thanks for input Espoir- yes today I have thought seriously about plan B> I did try a plan B without knowing it back in November but failed pretty quickly cos I was in a mess and had to see him! Not in the same place now and think it may be possible but need to be certain so I don't fail at first hurdle. You are right he is certainly having cake and eating it but I do have to think of my boys life and feelings as well. So I have to have the whole situation well thought out before going ahead. Any thoughts on successful plan B with boys aged 13,11 and 8 when H lives 150 miles away and boys want to be at home and able to play with friends much appreciated. The boys complain at me over changes to routine not Dad and I get the blame.>> <p>You may not be ready for Plan B yet. And Plan A is very very important. It serves to connect the spouses at a time when they are very disconnected due to the A. It reminds the WS of why they were in the M in the first place. <p>However, how long could you go on like this with your H? Would you be willing to tolerate the present situation for 5 years? 10 years?
You might say, at some point I would want to move on with my life. I would want to have the chance to meet someone who would treat me with care and consideration.<p>Imagine you divorced, per your husband's desire, and eventually met someone else, remarried. My question is, would H still be allowed to pop in, hang out with you as a friend, and do stuff with the kids? Sit at their sports events with you? My guess is a new H wouldn't be keen on that.. you would probably end up telling your H- you need to see the boys on your own time.<p>Your H is the one who chose to move 150 miles away. The consequence of that is that maintaining a relationship with his boys is difficult and inconvenient. But he is the one who made that CHOICE. He could live closer. <p>However Jante I hate to say it but he hasn't really felt the consequence of that choice.
I know you want to protect your boys. But why can't H take full responsibility for them during visitation? Why can't he sometimes take them to his place 150 miles away, and keep them entertained? Hey if OW is so great why can't she help him out? Isn't that what would happen in a divorce? He would sometimes have complete 100% responsibility for your boys, and you would have that time to yourself to relax. <p>Would it be worthwhile to show your H what the divorce he wants would really be like? Only you can answer that question. You are absolutely right however that you would need to be very very strong. So if you consider Plan B, wait until you're sure you're ready.

Espoir and |Pepper, thanks both of you for your input and you have really helped me to see more clearly.
I agree Esp[oir that should we end up D then the situation with boys and their dad really would have to change. As far as OW is concerned the boys have stated very clearly they would prefer not tom meet her and so far H has followed their wishes.
As it happens over the next few weeks there is a fair amount going on and I could very easily avoid contact with H and leave him to have care of the boys each weekend and to avoid sitting and chatting on Tuesdays when he comes to look after the boys and I can go out if I want to.
Had planned to be very distant, dark, mysterious over these next few weeks. But thats not quite a full plan B . Will go back reread SAA and decide how strong and prepared I am for full plan B. Thanks again for all your comments and I assure you I am not rejecting them. jante

Love is enough when you love your self enough to treat your self with respect and nurturing, and allow that to overflow into your relationships.

I am going to ramble a bit. Hope you don't mind. <p>I have gone back and read some of your older posts ( didn't have time to real all, sorry.) <p>I think you have hit on something here with the name of this thread. In the past you have sometimes commented about the lack of response, looks like the name has something to do with how many replies you get. <p>My thoughts ( before I read the last 8 or 10 on this thread ) were about the same as you have been getting - perhaps it's time for Plan B. <p>It looks like you have been pretty steady most of the time but that you have down days occasionally. I see you have a friend in much the same situation as you are. I'm glad you have someone to talk to. Your plan A has been good for you and sometimes you have commented that it seemed to be working on your H. But then, he would go back to being neutral or negative. <p>So, perhaps it is time for B. <p>Read up on plan B - as you intend to do. However, keep something in mind, sometimes plan B leads to reconciliation, sometimes to D. It's hard to go back once you make the change from plan A to plan B. ( with official letter and all. ) <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Will go back reread SAA and decide how strong and prepared I am for full plan B.
<hr></blockquote><p>Pray hard about this one, and if you feel God wants you to go ahead with it, then he will help you to be strong enough. You can take time to get yourself ready. <p>I had asked you about your sons, and how they were doing. I see in previous posts, you had already commented about that. Perhaps many of these problems have gotten better. I have 4 sons so I will comment on this one. ( four sons, four daughters also.) Our sons also sometimes refuse to respect their mother but will usually do what I tell them to do. We have tried many things to teach / train them to do better but sometimes it is a problem. It is something normal for some boys and not caused by your situation. ( only two of our four had this problem, not all of them) It can be made worse by what has happened to your family. <p>We have tried different ways to enforce the rules but the only thing that has really worked with the boys has been massive doses of encouragement. Find what he / they do right and praise it. Tell him you love him. - same thing as plan A - only for your son. ( not as extensive as for your husband. ) Mostly though, praise him when he does what you want. When he does wrong, enforce what ever rules you have in place but also express your feelings. " I feel disappointed in you when you are rude to your teachers." Use the form to express what you are feeling after he does something " I feel ______ about ________. The first blank is what you feel, the second is whatever he did. <p>This did not come natural for me, I have had a hard time with it, but it is starting to work well for us. I am the father, I always have been able to get them to obey by speaking sternly to them but this works better and they mind for their mother now also. They are less likely to challenge either of us. <p>The other thing we have learned is to always do what we say we will do. My W used to threaten and never do anything. They learned that there were no consequences. We are very careful what we say now. We only say what we are willing to do, and what we actually can do, and never use idle threats. <p>When you talk to the boys, tell them that you don't know what will happen, but express your faith that God can do things that we cannot, and that their is still a chance. Tell them that's why you are treating their father well. That you have not given up. <p>I don't know if you needed any of this, Just my thoughts after reading some of your posts.
Will pray for your marriage. God will help you do what is best for your family. <p>SS

Thanks Still seeking your thoughts and observations are very helpful. Will bear in mind all you have said about sons and about plan B. Will give much prayer to it all and then come back and post- in particular wqill ask for help on plan b letter if i decide that that is the way to go. jante

Praying for strength for you, Jante. Don't rush into Plan B, make sure you are completely ready for it. Make your Plan A really wonderful for the remaining time. Just concentrate on trying to have some fun with your H if possible.<p>As for your children, try to keep the lines of communication open. The advice about positive reinforcement is good. You can also try to get your sons to open up. If you see they are troubled, you can comment, you seem really frustrated? Can I help, what's going on? There a technique called reflection you can use as well. If one of sons for example said, I really hate my English teacher. You would repeat or paraphrase what they say "You really hate Mrs. X" It shows you are listening and that you've heard them. You can also say, Tell me more. Encourage them to express themselves. Your reaction must be non judgemental. You can try to help them with problem solving or ask them "How would you feel about....." If you need to be firm, try to keep your cool. Lay down the law, but lovingly.
Another technique is positive reinforcement. If your son acts out you can say, "I'm really surprised at your behavior, I've always thought of you as very considerate." Instead of "Why are you acting like such a jerk?" I learned alot of these communication techniques in nursing school and I have to say they have helped me in life.
I feel bad for your sons, they must be so confused and hurt by their father. And scared.<p>You mention alot of financial problems. Does OW support your H, or have money? Usually divorce/separation makes financial problems worse. Is H paying child support?<p>Also sometimes you will have to let go. It might be hard allowing your H to assume the responsibility of taking care of the boys. We mothers figure no one can do it better than us. But our Hs have no qualm to leave us on our own dealing with a brood of children. They don't lie awake at night wondering if the kids are being properly cared for. <p>I don't know if it's better to go into a Plan B with a letter or just "go dark" without saying anything. The problem with going dark is it can be misinterpreted. The WS just says- well she doesn't care anyway, so it justifies what I'm doing. Or they withdraw, you get scared and start calling or initiating contact. It can be inconsistent and not deliver the message. Maybe you should get more advice on that one.

Hi Espoir and thanks for all your thouhghts. Yes communication between me and sons is fairly open alt though oldest son does go into grunt mode frequently but I know that that is teen speak rather than the problem with my M. They are growing apart from H and he doesn't seem to recognise it which I find particularly sad.
Re money- H is not supported by OW- in fact if they are still togther I know she was made redundant at Easter and as yet hasn't found a job. H pays mortgage on old home, fince on the car he insisted on buying me when he left me and £350 towards the children. I work fulltime and pay my own mortgage house costs etc. I am managing fine but H seems to be getting daily into a deeper financial mess. But finance was always a problem throughout our marriage.
As for plan B being distant etc still workking out what will be best. I am sure he is very happy with the status quo and I suppose what I really want to do is make him sit up and think.
More prayer I think. Jante

bump bump

So, What are your thoughts ? <p>Where do you think you are? <p>What are you feeling lately, are you OK? <p>What can you forsee happening in the next few months?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>So, What are your thoughts ? <p>Where do you think you are? <p>What are you feeling lately, are you OK? <p>What can you forsee happening in the next few months?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>So, What are your thoughts ? <p>Where do you think you are? <p>What are you feeling lately, are you OK? <p>What can you forsee happening in the next few months?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My thoughts are that I need to distance myself because nothing else is breaking through his hard core of selfishness which is happy with the statur quo.
I woke up this morning and no longer cared whether he divorced me or not- never thought I'd feel that!! Of course don't know how long I'll feel like that LOL.
Also saw him yesterday and he had new clothes on which he pointed out to me- I think he wanted me to admire them but actually I thought they looked awful
[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
I must admit I have started to be a little distant but haven't actually written a plan B letter yet but thinking about what to write.
Where does this sound like I am????
Jante

It sounds like you need to wait a week and see if you still feel that way in a week. <p>But I am just a fellow "board member" not a professional councilor. <p>How's the Love Bank? <p>You are a strong person, I suspect you could last longer, but that you think it won't do any good.
So, it sounds like you want to force a change. <p>If you feel the same in a week or two, then - perhaps plan B. Official plan B is a big step. Are you ready for it? <p>I would have to say after a year that it may be time for you to move on. <p>Those are just my thoughts. Do you have anyone Counseling you? <p>I have another question I'll ask tomorrow. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]