<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>Hi J, Good evening. <p>My clock shows it is about 10:30 am here, but about 5:50 pm in GB. <p>So where did you live before moving back? <p>Hope today was a nice day for you. Did H visit last night? If so, do you have any comments? <p>If I was a close friend of yours, and had known you for many years, would I think you were shy? <p>SS</strong><hr></blockquote><p>HI SS We moved from Derbyshire up to Scotland to work with the church up there. Then due to various 'happenings and moves' H's job brought him back to England and he returned at weekends , after he had the A and the chose to move out I came back to Derbyshire with the children. There were a number of reasons- family, friends, church , and H's job which enables him to visit the children more regularly than if we were still in Scotland. Where are you?
H visited last night, I left earlier than usual but was home earlier than usual as well and H commented. he was also very defensive about a shirt he wore last week as if it mattered what I thought about it! Not much elkse happened.
Althoiugh inately shy I have made myself be friendly to people in every situation- I used to be onm the welcome team at church and have always enjoyed opening my home to peeople so i think most people don't realise i am shy.
Tomorrow i have an interview for a new job. What about you- how would people describe you. jante

Hi J,
I am trying to build a profile of you in my mind - and perhaps if it is accurate, see if there is something I could suggest to you that may help. <p>We do a number of things on these forums. We learn, give general support, give suggestions, we vent, and listen to, and validate others vents. I gave a number of suggestions to you before I felt I knew you very well. They were "off the cuff" kind of things. It would be nice to do a little better. ( but remember that we are just fellow learners, trying to improve ourselves.) <p>It looks like you have an A type plan in your heart that won't let go of you. I say this as an observation from what you report. I would think you do not easily get angry ( or perhaps never.) <p>Have you asked Husband in the last few months if he would come home? Something like this -
"I love you, I want you back, and feel it's time for you to come home. Will you talk about it with me?"<p>I will answer questions tomorrow morning - and ask some more.
BTW, good for you, ask away. <p>Have to go now, bye<p>SS

One other thing, if this reaches you soon enough -Good luck on your interview. We all wish the best for you.

Jante,
I intended to answer your questions and explain why I asked about being shy. But I am behind this morning - will come back. How did interview go? Is it one of those that you won't find out the results for a few days or weeks? <p>Bye
SS

Hi SS and thanks for the good wishes. I heard today that I didn't get the job but I have been offered supply work in the school for the rest of this academic year which will give me the necessary experience and some extra cash.
No havn't discussed H moving back to me or our relationship in any way since February. Didn't want to appear to be pursuing and neither did I want to LB which if I got upset it could become. Afraid as well that if I raise the subject it may push me into issuing an ultimatum before i'm really ready. that said i would love to raise the subject to feel as if i was moving things forward- but then it may just put everything back 3 months!.
Am continuing to pray about my options at this point.
Jante<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]</p>

Hi Jante, <p>Hope your past few days have gone well. I have had some deadlines at work to meet, so this is later than I intended. I have posted a few short posts to others but knew I wanted to do a long one to you and didn't have time to do it. <p>About being shy.
Some of the things you have said got me to wonder about it. At times you will mention that you would like to try something but can't bring yourself to do it. So I thought that either you are a shy personality, or you have another plan in your heart and feel to keep on with it. ( Perhaps some of both) <p>And yes, I am shy also. I have also worked myself out of it ( no one who knows me now would think of me as shy. ) In school, I couldn't bring myself to ask girls out for dates. I only went on a few with three different girls before college. In some ways this, as a part of my personality still limits what I try to do. <p>However, to live in the world and succeed we transform our selves. I was a leader for the Boy Scouts of America for many years, and some thought I was one of the most outgoing people they had ever met. I did things differently from what I feel, because I knew the boys needed someone dynamic to lead them. You have been a on the Welcome team. Most people don't know that you feel shy. But inside you still feel that way. So, does this limit what you are willing to try with H? Is it something you need to think about and adjust your plan to take into account? In other words, someone might give you an idea of something to try, it just might feel wrong. But it may feel wrong because of your personality type, not because the idea is bad.
It's not something I know the answer to, just wanted you to think about it.
Sometimes these feelings come from God, and we need to listen to them, sometimes they come from us and limit us. <p>You should also examine what I said about having a plan already in your heart. Deep down if you already feel you know what has to be done you may not accept suggestions from others. This is not bad, but turning down suggestions from others will not make you so - uneasy, if you know why you are doing it. <p>I don't think you need to give these things a lot of time. I think your mind, having been exposed to these ideas will take them into account. <p>Questions -
These and other questions today are just for you. You don't need to reply unless you would enjoy doing so.
I have found that sometimes, asking questions and letting you think is the best way to help. So that is what I am going to do today. <p>I don't really know what your communication with your husband is like right now. You talk to him when he comes and goes, but it might just be small talk. I read that he sometimes tells you about his job. You must have discussed things when the utilities where shut of on the castle, and then you got the letter about the possible fine and jail time. When I suggested your asking him if it was time to come back I had an idea in mind. In many of my large posts, I try to give a background for my thoughts, so here goes. <p>H has to think about you sometimes, but who knows what he is thinking ? YOU would love to know, all BS's would. So here is a simple way to take his temperature so to speak. You don't even have to ask him to come back, just ask him if he is ready to talk about it. Remember to ask an open ended question, not a yes or no question. Something like "I'm ready to have a talk about you coming home, what are your thoughts about discussing it?" Not, "can we discuss you coming home?" - because he could just say "NO." and you wouldn't learn anything.
So here's what it could produce - what he could say.
1. I think it's a good idea. ( what could you make of that one? )
2. No ( He could still say it, but you could say, " I asked you what you think about it."
3. I think it's a bad idea. and you say "why"
4. Maybe we should discuss it - and you say "when"
5. I'm not ready to discuss it yet. "OK, I'll wait." But the word yet would be an interesting qualifier.
6. It's not something I will ever be willing do discuss. ( often said by WS's ) If he says something along these lines it won't help much to know where he is headed, but you won't be any worse off than you are now. <p>There are more possible answers, but you get the idea.
So, I thought it was an easy way to find out just what some of his thoughts are. I can't see any way for it to be an LB.
There are other things you need to discuss, so, if he won't go for the other discussion you could try
" We need to have a talk about the boys" Re, getting distant, you are loosing them.
" I'm thinking about moving on." ( can't go on like we are.) Discuss lessening contact.
I suspect you have other topics you could insert here. <p>Are you still sending him notes ? If so, does he ever reply or acknowledge them in any way? <p>You seem to be in a kind of modified plan A. You are nice to him, but you are starting to withdraw somewhat. I haven't had anything to do with DB's. Perhaps some of what you do is from them. I hear good things about the material, but since I am not, and was not headed for Divorce, I have not really studied them. So my next question now is, What is your plan, and are you happy with how it is going? <p>In the beginning, you were more emotional, or at least you communicated your feelings more. In the last little while, you have been pretty level. This could be because you no longer express your feelings, you have progressed and grown and it doesn't bother you as much, or because your love bank is down so low, you don't care so much. ( saw other couples, but the face with you was fuzzy and no longer H's ) If you do believe in the LB$ concepts, you need to watch your bank, and go to plan B soon enough that you can still care for him.
Do you know what your feelings are for him now, and based on those feelings, can you continue to run the same plan? <p>Radical Honesty.
This relates to asking him if he is willing to talk. If your love bank is dropping, and you are becoming distant from him, you should tell him. I believe that right now, he thinks things will just stay the way they are. If they begin to change, you need to tell him how you feel so he has a chance to react. I know and agree that this whole mess is his fault, but you would never feel right if you wanted untill your bank was drained, and just dumped him. ( no one ever thinks that will happen, but it does.) Thats another thing for you to ponder and pray about. Are your feelings changing and do you need to tell him? <p>But lets change the subject <p>Answers:
Where am I? I live in St. George Utah, USA. That is 120 miles from Las Vegas Nevada ( which most people have heard of ) and about the same Climate as Las Vegas (desert.) I am over 300 miles from where the Olympics were held, so they didn't affect us very much. Lets see, we are close to the Grand Canyon ( less than 100 air miles) If that helps for a frame of reference. If your youngest son ever needs a pen pal project ( our school sometimes does this ) , I have twin daughters that turned 9 years last week. We have S 24, S 23, S 22, ( about 18 months apart) D 20, D 17, S 16, and twin D's 9 ( surprise, surprise.) <p>Who am I? ( you didn't really ask that, but - ) I don't have an A story like many on these boards. I came to MB to improve my marriage, but we were not close to D and no A for either of us. This is a link to most of my story. SS Story
It has now been about 4 months for me. And things are working well for us. The first few months, I worked on my own, but my W could see it was a good thing and joined my efforts, and we are falling back in love and it is as Dr Harley says it can be. ( I have a hard time saying much about this, so many are in pain. Sorry.) <p>Well, this should keep you busy thinking for a few minutes. As I said, you don't need to answer the questions to me if you don't want to. I mostly asked to get you thinking. From what I read, you are doing well, and have a good attitude. I know you will have bad days, but they always end, and the good ones always come again. ( is that what Heaven is, no bad days? ) <p>As long as you believe, there is still a chance for both of you. Keep believing. <p>Bye for now,
SS

Thanks SS for taking time to post to me. I appreciate the concern and the questions. they have certainly given me a lot to think about and at the moment that is waht I will do. I may take time to answer them later in the week when I've had time to digest and 'find' my answers. As you say thewy give plenty of food for thought.
H is here tomorrow and original plans for his day with the boys has fallen through so i'll see where God takes us. Jante

I may be able to pull off one more quick post and give you a new tool to use with H. <p>I have a retail background. One of the things I have learned in classes about talking to customers ( and proved it to be true on the sales floor) is that you can do almost anything with a customer if you just ask them first. <p>You get a phone call - it is really rude to leave someone and talk to someone else, so you ask them. " would it be all right with you if I take this call, I'll be right back." If they say yes, how can they be angry with you? They always say yes. <p>Or I need to speak with a sales person who is waiting on someone - " Can I interrupt you for a minute to speak with SP?" I have never had one customer say no, and as I said, they have given permission, so they are not angry. <p>So, if your plan permits, try it with H. <p>If you end up going out with H and Sons tomorrow, ask -
" H, can I hold your hand?"
Or "H, can I give you a kiss good-bye?"

Or if you ever get time alone, "H, will you make love to me?" <p>Or whatever you think would help.<p>You don't have to show emotion in any way, no matter what he says. ( but I would smile if he says yes) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Now, I know this is a different thing than a retail floor. But you never know !
I have tried some of them with my W and it works pretty good. If she wants, she says no, and we go on. But there are no LB's associated with it. Easy and simple. I am not pursuing, just making a simple request. She just gives a simple answer. ( and often she says yes ! ) Actually, W and I are beyond this stage, but for a while, it worked pretty well. <p>As always, these are just ideas. Always do what you feel is best for you. Never feel bad for not trying them, if you are not comfortable with some idea you are given here. <p>May you have a very happy weekend ! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Bye
SS

Thanks SS for suggestion will most probably use it cos now you mention it on occasions in past when I've felt upset and have asked for a hug H has always said yes and last twice we've only pulled apart cos child came in room. I haven't thought of using it in any other situation but may well work. I'll let you know how things go. jante

SS definitely think its time to ask if he will talk about how he feels. Hes just mentioned OW who I had begun to think was no longer around,. Not only that but didn't seem to think I cared. Time for openess and radical honesty I think. I do care, there is still love in the bank but its definetly lower than is was. Plan B seems on the horizon. jante

Well H has just left but before he went I asked him if he thought that some time at his convenience we could sit down and talk about how he was feeling about the situation and where we were going. I told him I was happy in my life and not at all traumatised now but that I needed to feel I could move on.
H said he understood that, was glad I wasn't traumatised and that we would talk after hes been away sailing for a week- he leaves for his trip next Saturday.
Feel a bit flat now and worried that Ive given him go ahead to distance even more from me but then again i really need to move on I'm finding this limbo land stalemate is getting me down.
As a Chrisitian I do find it hard to think I may end up pushing H to divorce and though I want to stay strong for my marriage I'm finding the idea of leaving it all behind and moving into a new rel. increasingly attractive propsition.
Think my fog is back. jante

I suppose doubts were bound to set in this am I've woken up thinking I must be mad to change status quo as now I risk him insisiting that he wants a D. Need some encouragement. Should I send him a love letter to remind him of me while he is away sailing?! Jante

Hi SS mentioned penpal ideas to sons and 11 year old thinks its a great idea.l Wants o know what he should do. Jante

Hi, Jante, <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Feel a bit flat now and worried that I've given him go ahead to distance even more from me but then again i really need to move on I'm finding this limbo land stalemate is getting me down. As a Chrisitian I do find it hard to think I may end up pushing H to divorce and though I want to stay strong for my marriage I'm finding the idea of leaving it all behind and moving into a new rel. increasingly attractive proposition. Think my fog is back. <hr></blockquote><p>You aren't pushing H to Divorce. Remember who broke their vows. It was not you. It has to bother you, it has to make you worry. You would not be normal if it did not have an emotional effect on you. <p>If you feel whatever plan you have been using is working, you can have your talk with H be as simple as " H, tell me your feelings about our situation." and listen to him and say nothing. <p>If he asks your feelings, be honest, and tell about your hurt and pain, but be careful what you say. Practice first a few things that he might ask. It makes it easier. <p>If the talk goes well, you can tell him that you believe you can fall in love again and have a stronger marriage than before and that you would like him to come home to try it, it is much easier than driving so far two times a week, after all, you still love him, and after a D, things would be very hard on him. ( he may have to take Sons back to his residence if he wants to see them. ) And so on, and so on. Limit what you say, limit how long you talk. DON'T LB.<p>I expect you will pray about these things. Only God knows for sure what will be best. I hope you have a good relationship with God and that answers will come to you. Many times in my life, that is all that has sustained me. He is there, he loves you and he knows you personally. He knows your name and all about your life and troubles. He knows if you will be able to help make your marriage right again, or if H is lost, and you should fine another. You will feel strongly about Gods love for you as you read this. He will help you to understand what you should do. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I suppose doubts were bound to set in this am I've woken up thinking I must be mad to change status quo as now I risk him insisting that he wants a D. Need some encouragement. Should I send him a love letter to remind him of me while he is away sailing?! <hr></blockquote><p>I am sorry that I don't post on weekends. Family and Church responsibilities are demanding on the weekend. I wish someone had posted on this site after your post to reassure you. Remember, you have done nothing wrong. This mess is not of your making. Even if we are not perfect, God says there is no reason for an A. YOU SHOULD NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT THIS. <p>I believe if H asks for D, he would have done so in the future no matter what you have, or have not done. Even if he does, you can wait 6 months and try again. <p>Love letter ? I honestly don't know. You have sent notes in the past. Has he ever commented on these? Ever said thank you? Perhaps if you think about that, it will help you to know. <p>You have been talking to H every week for over a year, but it is hard to step back and look at what is happening without your feelings clouding your judgment. ( I know it is, because it is the same for all of us.) So let me talk a little about it. <p>I believe that early in your separation, you cried, yelled, and did other things to get H's attention and try to get him to return. ( I am trying to remember just exactly what you wrote.) For a time now, you have not done any of these things. H has let you give hugs, ( this is a good thing.) You wrote him notes but we don't know exactly what you put in them or how he accepted them. <p>If he has taken hugs, and notes well, then I believe a Love note would be a good thing. <p>If he pulled away from hugs, or rejected notes, then probably not. <p>Most men like admiration, and I believe that a love note before a talk would be a good preparation and set the mood for the talk. But I think you should put a disclaimer on the end of it. Something like this: <p>" H, these are my feelings, I thought you should know how I feel about you before we talk. I don't want to have this talk to tell you it is finished, But, I need to know your feelings so I will know how to proceed. It has been quite some time since you have left us, so I want to see what you are thinking about things. I will not pressure you or make demands of you during our talk. Thanks, Jante." This is just an example, you should say it so It sounds like you. <p>Again, all you would be doing is discussing your feelings (love note) and telling him you want to discuss his feelings and intentions. I don't know how he could take that as LB. <p>When you pray about this, you will have a strong feeling of love come to you from God to let you know that he is helping you and that he loves you. Whenever you have doubts, pray for help, he wants you to know what to do, and he will help you. <p>Remember we are in his hands, he will take care of YOU. <p>SS<p>PS, will get back to you later about pen pal idea. Actually, this is a day off for me, I just dropped in to get a book, and didn't want to leave you hanging.<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Thanks SS<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]</p>

Thanks SS for your message it really helps to have someone to listen to my ramblings and point out the positive and negatives.
Love letter ?
I honestly don't know. You have sent notes in the past. Has he ever commented on these? Ever said thank you? Perhaps if you think about that, it will help you to know. <p>He has occasionally thanked me for a card or message but more often than not he has ignored them. I haven't sent any since the end of March.<p> <p>
If he has taken hugs, and notes well, then I believe a Love note would be a good thing. <p>If he pulled away from hugs, or rejected notes, then probably not.
Most men like admiration, and I believe that a love note before a talk would be a good preparation and set the mood for the talk. But I think you should put a disclaimer on the end of it. Something like this: <p>" H, these are my feelings, I thought you should know how I feel about you before we talk. I don't want to have this talk to tell you it is finished, But, I need to know your feelings so I will know how to proceed. It has been quite some time since you have left us, so I want to see what you are thinking about things. I will not pressure you or make demands of you during our talk. Thanks, Jante." This is just an example, you should say it so It sounds like you
That sounds a positive way of ending the letter sand I will certainly pray about it before writing.
I have a strong commited faith ( as did H before all this) and it has been God who has kept me going . Whenever i felt like giving up, threatening D etc.God has always stopped me- with a strong sense that it would be the wrong thing to do. I fear one problem for H in coming back is the fact that he wouold have to face his sin, repent and then recommit his life and at the moment he isn't prepared. But i keep praying for my " prodigal" to come home.
I did get very tired this weekend of standing strong and came to a point of wondering if it really was worth the effort. Then i felt guilty cos i know that to do anything else is to deny my faith in what God can do.
thankyou for what you posted it helped a great deal.
Jante<p>[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have a strong commited faith ( as did H before all this) and it has been God who has kept me going . Whenever i felt like giving up, threatening D etc.God has always stopped me- with a strong sense that it would be the wrong thing to do. <hr></blockquote><p>Actually, my wife said this same thing after I started to change and improve. We are both very glad she stayed. We don't always understand Gods timetable, or his reasons, or know what he intends, but he is never wrong. And we will always be happier if we listen to him. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I fear one problem for H in coming back is the fact that he wouold have to face his sin, repent and then recommit his life and at the moment he isn't prepared. But i keep praying for my " prodigal" to come home .I did get very tired this weekend of standing strong and came to a point of wondering if it really was worth the effort. Then i felt guilty cos i know that to do anything else is to deny my faith in what God can do. <hr></blockquote><p>I feel very strongly that this needs to be a part of your conversation with H. I think you should weave parts of both of the above included quotes into your conversation. God is not finished with your H. He needs to be reminded of that. <p>Now, when ever one of these talks comes up, we all get our hopes up. WE HOPE SOMETHING GOOD WILL HAPPEN. But sometimes it does not. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it is bad, and often, nothing changes. <p>You need to spend the few weeks before this talk being calm. Block out some time to think about it, go over in your mind things that could happen, what he might say, how you will react. Write down the main points that you want to cover. Then after you have done what you can, forget about it, don't dwell on it all the time. ( I suspect by now, you have already learned to do this.) <p>Mostly you want to find out his feelings. He may say very little, he may say it's over, he may say you are wasting your time. Try to detach from what he says, and not react to it if it is negative.
On the other hand, he may say he misses life with you. We don't know at this point. <p>
If it doesn't go well, you don't need to say anything at all about how you feel. Just say, "H, thanks for telling me how you feel," and end the conversation. If it goes well, and you can tell your side of the story, I believe you need to communicate two main points. <p>1. What your feelings are about him and your marriage. and as a part of this, what you intend to do. ( Wait, hope, pray? ) As I said before, a love letter will help this part of it In fact, if you don't get to say much in your discussion, this letter could already have told him what you wanted to say.
2. Gods will for you stay and be patient and have hope, and that God will do a good work in H's life and that you have faith in God and what he has communicated to you. <p>If you have done all that you could, and if you pray about it and take time to think about it, all these things will come together in your mind as God wants you to say them. When we come to him, he never lets us down. You will know what to say and how to say it if you will prepare properly and pray for conformation. <p>Now, there are two forces in this world, God is only one of them. When you are discouraged, when thoughts come to you of failure, it is not from God. If the time ever comes that God releases you from your effort in your marriage, you will have a feeling of relief, and peace and will know that you are doing the right thing. You will not doubt, or wonder about it.

So remember that those negative feelings come from someone that seeks to destroy you and your marriage. Whenever those bad feelings, and thoughts come, you need to resist them, pray, and seek for help from friends that can support you. These bad feelings always pass, we are tested, but God does not permit them to overpower us. Never give up hope. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
About the pen pal relationship for children. Would you like them to write on paper so they could have the letters to keep, and have stamps, postmarks etc., or use e-mail which is quicker, and where they could respond in real time? Talk to son and have him respond, and I will talk to daughters and get back to you. We can probably set it up by e-mail either way you want it to go. I can see good / bad both ways. In my teen years, I met a girl from Mexico on a vacation trip to Hawaii and corresponded with her for a number of years. It was a positive learning experience for me. <p>Hope your evening is a nice one.
SS

Hi SS and thanks as always your comments and advice are very helpful. H tonight called about seeing sons school tomorrow and talked in terms of meeting me at 'home' not 'your home' as he has in the past. He said this more than once which was quite a surprise. Also he could have met me at school which is what I expected. This house has never been H's home as I moved here after he left. It shows I think that he is feeling comfortable here. <p>Thanks
Jante<p>[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]</p>

Got it, thanks. <p>My daughters don't have address yet, but will set them up for them and see if they can have a little fun and learn something. Right now my computer at home is dead. It may take me a few days to get it running again. ( probably Saturday) <p>It must feel good to have him say "Home." Even if it is something he did not try to do. Who knows what it means? Make sure you are calm tomorrow. (Always - I bet.) When God sets a task for us, he knows what we can do, and doesn't ask more from us than we are able to perform. You will be OK. <p>SS

BTW, if he wants to talk tomorrow, be careful what you say, unless you have already had time to think about it.<p>If he does want to reconcile, you need time to think about that also. There are many things to consider, such as, will you have to move? <p>Now, I am not saying that you will even have to deal with any of this tomorrow when he meets you at "home," but just keep it in the back of your mind and be ready. <p>If it was me, and he started and I wasn't ready yet, I would just say, " Well, I am glad you want to talk about it, lets do it after you go saling so I have time to think about it." (one of the reasons I am shy is because I don't think fast enough to answer sometimes.) <p>I am not trying to get your hopes up, and I don't know any more than you do. Just be careful and protect your feelings. <p>SS