Thanks SS> Will do as you say as I don't think there will be sufficient timee tonight to have a calm discusiion without feeling rushed. I will edit out sons email. If you didn't get it let me know when your duaghters have an address and I'll post it again.
Jante

Hi, <p>Just say your prayers every morning and night. You'll be OK. Don't expect to much tonight. Even I am starting to play the "what if" game for you. <p>Let us know how the evening goes. <p>SS

Thanks SS. Well H has been here tonight and we went to school about son. Had a much more positive report than last time then I went off to uni.H stayed and fed the kids, took one son to football and attempted to fix my laptop which i use for work.I came back a little earlier than I expected and h chose to stay and have a drink before going. We only talked about my job and the boys. Have asked H to phone me when he gets back from sailing trip to show he is safe. He rarely phones between visits and i don't usually ask him to but last time he went on a long sail he had to be escorted to shore by lifeboat so wanted to know that he would let me know he was safely back. Shows I'm still concerned for him. (and its genuine concern.)
Then H left. No offer of hug and I felt it best not to ask for one. Now there will be no contact for a fortnight except for his call to let me know he's safe in 10 days.
Thanks for all you prayers. I do pray and trust God for a resolution- problem i'm impatient.
Jante

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Well H has been here tonight and we went to school about son. Had a much more positive report than last time. <hr></blockquote><p>I am glad son is doing better at school. That has to ease your mind a little and make living from day to day easier. Whatever you and H are doing for son, it must be working. Remember to thank son for his improvement. ( I don't know why I bring up these things with you, I think you probably have thought of this.) And thank H for his help also. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I came back a little earlier than I expected and h chose to stay and have a drink before going. We only talked about my job and the boys. <hr></blockquote><p>After thinking about it for a day, it looks to me like H is wanting to have a relationship with you again. Did H lead the conversation in talking about your job? Or did you do it to avoid any other topic that might be difficult for both of you? Was he enthusiastic about talking to you or seem to hang around as a favor to you? <p>I am not a professional, but it looks to me like H is wanting to reconcile. He may not even know it yet. I have thought also what you have said long ago about H not doing well in keeping his finances in order. I wonder if he resents that you are better at some things than he is, and I wonder if he needs to have the reconciliation be "his idea." You would know his personality much better than any of us, what do you think?
If that is the case, asking him what he intends to do would be a good thing, but if he is in a bad mood, he may say things that his pride would prevent him from taking back later. So my belief is that you need to read his mood as well as you are able, and you can make the talk more serious depending on what you think you can take. Just more for you to think about in your preparations to talk. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Shows I'm still concerned for him. (and its genuine concern.) <hr></blockquote> <p>Yes it does, and yes it is. It says a lot about the kind of person you are - hope he is able to see it also. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> problem I'm impatient. <hr></blockquote>
Well, I disagree. I think you feel that way but you don't act that way. It has been a year and a half since he left. You are still working to have him return. That looks to me like a person with lots of patience. Give yourself credit for it. <p>I have noticed in my 46 years that many times life is very difficult. Sometimes we have a great time, we have fun and are very happy. We laugh and talk and it seems like nothing could ever make us have a down day. Then something bad happens, and we worry, and can't seem to find happiness. Here is a quote for you.
John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
When our faith becomes strong enough that this is enough for us, then we can put all the bad in context in our lives, take it for the growth it produces in us, and be happy anyway. There are no promises that we won't have trials, just that we will get help when we need it. Are you happy anyway? I hope you are. May God bless you that you may be so. <p>SS<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Hi SS and as always thankyou for all the sense you talk.
Yes I did thank H and son for yesterdays good news and H's involvement. Can't remeber now whether I raised work it was one of those conversations that develop between friends rather than either raising issues.
I know H would need to be the one to raise reconciliation and so having 'sown' seed of talking about how he feels I'm now going to stand back and wait for him to suggest the time and see what he then says. I know I will have to bite my tongue if it doesn't happen quickly but think it will be the better way.
Thanbks for the verse- another i hold to very closely is
" He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" Phil 1:6
For myself and my walk with God, for H and his walk with God which I know was very real, and for my marriage which began in God.
I will keep you informed of how things develop but don't expect much news in the next 10 days.
Jante

Quote from a conversation I had with my father when I had only been married a few years. <p>"Dad, do these problems ever go away?"<p>"No, but you do get better at solving them."
He had a big grin on his face when he said it. . . . . <p>SS

Heres a link to a story I thought you'd like.
( at least, I enjoyed it) <p>Good / Bad story <p>I don't know how much time you have to look around but I bet most days not much. Three boys and a job and a house to take care of - plus church and other responsibilities that you may not mention here. <p>After H comes back, and things are good someday, let him read all your posts, he will appreciate you more for all that you have done. Save it for a day that you don't mind if he cries, because he will be touched. <p>You should smile more, you really should -<p>Do you ever think about what would have happened if Winston Churchill had died from a cold in 1939? No, thats depressing. <p>How about this one - What if Elton John had been one of the Beatles ? <p>Thats enough for today, don't smack me when you come back. <p>SS

Thanks SS I have long known good has come out of the 'bad' of this situation with H. Its like the bible says- "all things work together for good for those that are called according to Gods purposes." H leaving wasn't good but God is causing it to work for good in my life. Jante

Hi J,
I am going to be gone for a few days camping with my family. If I get my computer fixed at home tomorrow I will post a little then, but Sunday I never do, and I leave early Monday and will be back at work Thursday the 6th. We are going to one of the few wild places in the mountains that you can still drive to. ( takes 1 hour to drive 7 miles after leaving the main road. ) If I can't get my computer at home repaired, it may be a while before my daughters ever send out any mail and you won't see a post from me until Thursday. Give you a rest from having to post back to me every day. - and no, I don't mind talking with you, it is my pleasure. <p>I have thought a little about this thread. I started posting to you after you had bumped your previous thread two or three times without an answer. Then you started this one, and I came over to see how you were. I was pretty new to posting and had not really thought about why some threads get many responses and some do not. There are some like JL that don't ever start up a thread of their own, and just wander around posting where they think they can help. I had kind of decided to do that myself. ( I sometimes wonder how much I help, but I try.) <p>Many long threads have either a big controversy, or a few friends that stay together. So I think now that others are not really afraid for you. I mean, you are stable and well adjusted so they are not afraid that you are going to do something drastic like taking your life or anything, so they go to the threads where they figure they can do some good, because, you seem to be doing so well. <p>Doing so well?
Yes, you seem to be doing well. You are out of the stage where you seem to be needy, and into a stage of quiet strength where you know what you need to do, and you work a very good plan. So you don't get as much attention. You are safe. I believe this fits your personality. You like to be safe, not stir people up. <p>For a while, it seemed like the board was going crazy with new problems. I think it has slowed down a little now. I believe ( but don't know for sure) that many of the old timers check in on threads all over the boards and help where they see a BIG problem. Perhaps it is felt that the responses you are getting are adequate and so they help others. Don't ever feel that you are unimportant, or unnoticed. <p>If you ever want a more broad range of replies, feel free to start another thread. Also, if you ever feel bored with responding daily, don't worry about missing a few days. I don't know if you have any of these feelings, just try to anticipate what might be. At any rate, I am comfortable posting to you and enjoy it, so, will continue. I am not trying to send any kind of message, just want to reassure you about doing what you feel you want to do. ( again, I don't know why I tell you these things, you also always do anything you feel strongly about, don't you. ) <p>I really don't have a question for you today, no homework for the weekend. Just do what the children do with no homework, enjoy yourself. However, if I think of one, I reserve the right to come back later . . . . .<p>SS

Hi Jante, <p>I came into work Saturday night to answer an alarm call. I could find nothing wrong and no sign of a break in, but I did find a problem with the cash registers that required me to come in early this morning ( 5:00 AM) and do some computer work to repair it. Turned out it was not as bad as I had thought and it is repaired now. Also this AM one of our twins woke up ill and my wife has taken her to the Hospital so we may not go camping today. Must wait and see. <p>I was not able to repair computer at home Saturday. I was called upon to be part of a work party at a girls camp in the mountains ( that older daughter (17) attends each summer. ) So I went with youngest son (16) and other men to get the camp ready for summer. We had a good time, but worked hard and I am sore this morning. At any rate, did not get computer repaired. The operating system crashed and I need to re-install it. The data files are still there, but I need to re-install all programs also and it will take 3 or 4 hours to do so. I suspect son had something to do with the crash but he claims not. ( he always claims it was not he.) He installs games weekly it seems like. <p>I have had feelings of "impending doom" as I call them this last week. Usually they last no longer than a day but they have continued all week. By now, I know what, or should I say WHO causes them and I try to ignore them but it takes a lot of energy. I have been praying for them to lift but as yet they are still with me. It is something we endure all our lives on earth but God seems to sustain us and we don't have to let them overcome us. I can't say that real doom has ever happened to me when I have these feelings, so I just go on and do the best I am able to do - just like you do. I don't consider life's little problems to be doom, they are part of normal life. <p>I suspect you know where these feelings come from when you have them and that you have learned to cope also. I am confident you had a good weekend. I did get a little time in my garden Saturday evening and found myself thinking about the people here on MB and praying for all of us. I got the weeds out and prayed, at the same time that God will take the weeds out of your marriage and that your husband will see the light and return to you. <p>Well, I will go home now and see if my wife and daughter are home and what will happen for us the next few days. Wishing you a very happy week. <p>SS

Thanks SS for taking time out while working on problems to send a message to me. And thankyou for praying for me and my marriage. H is away sailing this week and I have been praying that God will give him a Jonah experience when instead of running away from God he finds himself calling on God. ( I don't necessarily mean that they have to experience a storm!!)I know that he will need to return to God to come back to me as the two issues are tied up -at least in his mind.
Have spent weekend working on the ouse and garden and today my In laws have been to visit. They are very much on my side and haven'[t seen H since February. As strong Christians they are disappointed in him but have never said anything to him and still love him and are concerned for him.
hope you fix all the problem equipment jante
ps since then have had a conversation with MIL which shows they would not be willing to meet his new GF whle he is still married to me.<p>[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]</p>

Hi folks had a wonderful time last night at a friends birtday party and catching up with some friends I haven 't seen for 8 years. it was great fun catching up and dancing etc. I realised at the end that I hadn't missed H at all although I would have done not so long ago. I did think it was shame he missed it as he would have enjoyed it. He was invited but told me he was relieved to have a good excuse to miss as he would have been embarrassed.
This whole area of not missing him- is it signs of loss of love and there fore time for Plan B> Jante.

Bump di bump [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Jante,
I posted to you a while back and haven't for a while because I've been away with my H on a trip for 2 weeks. Glad to see that you and ss have been having a good conversation.
Sorry to see that not much has changed with your H. <p>At one point you said that you were afraid to broach R talks because you might push him to ask for divorce. A very scary thought.<p>But after more than a year apart, Jante, I think you need to confront the fear. Because the way your H is acting is probably much the same as if you were divorced. Although if you were divorced I guess he wouldn't fix your laptop.<p>Maybe it would be helpful to make a list. On one side, make a list of your H's actions that are the ways one would act if one were divorced. (No sex, no affection, doesn't call between visits) On the other side, write down any behavior he exhibits that seems "married"- behavior you fear would change if you did divorce. You could then see what it is you fear losing. Would you lose much?<p>I'm not saying push H to ask for a divorce. But I guess I do think- don't be afraid of it if your situation won't change so much. Maybe the consequence of divorce is the cold breath of reality that would force H to rethink what he is doing.<p>I wish strength for you, because I think the current situation gives your husband all the power and thus no incentive to change. It sounds like he comes when he feels like it. If he wants to hug you he can, if he doesn't, he doesn't have to. Why would he want to change something like that?<p>You sound like a really nice person. I'm sad that your husband does not value you the way he should.<p>I've spoken a bit bluntly here and hope I don't upset you. I am not in your situation. Just asking some of these questions as food for thought.

Thanks Espoir and no hurt feelings here. i value all comments that give me insight into my situation from those who are far enough away to see 'the wood for the trees'!
I agree with your comments and will make the list as you suggest. I actually think that someof the things ie fixing laptop would still be done if I asked. Will give some thought to all this and come back later. Jante

Hi J,
It's good to be back. We did go on our vacation camping trip. Wife and daughter stayed home the first two days and came up the last day and spend it with us. ( we were only about 25 miles as the crow flies from home) We found out daughter had pneumonia and were afraid that the altitude would not be good for her. ( also the cold, we are around 100 deg Fahrenheit each day here, and it is almost freezing at night in the mountains where we went camping. ) So, I am home now and daughter is much better. <p>I have done some thinking the past few days as I have hiked, rested, played and prayed, about the people I have met here on MB. I have some more observations and questions. <p>I think it a good exercise to do what espoir suggested, but I don't think you will find out anything you don't know. ( I think it good because anything you do to have your situation clear in your mind will help with conversation with H.) I believe you are not afraid of divorce. I think you want your marriage back, but I think you accepted the possibility of D a few months ago, perhaps about the time you changed your reaction to what your H was doing. <p>1. So what are you afraid of? Or is it really fear? I'm not sure it would be fear of divorce at all. I do believe though, that you are concerned ( is that a better word to use?) or afraid for your Husband. You do love him, and know if he doesn't come back, he will never really be happy again - ever. He has broken vows to you, but has also broken his relationship with God. I think you are more concerned for H and his relationship to God than you are for your Marriage. The marriage problems are just a sign of the greater problem.
I have wondered how a person with so much invested in trying to follow God could turn away so quickly and become so lost. My belief is ( understand that I don't know him well) that he found himself lonely and far from his family, and instead of turning to God, or returning home, took solace in the arms of someone else. Now he has invested some much time in going down the wrong path, he doesn't what to even think about it , because it brings to much guilt and sorrow. Lets leave this one for a bit. <p>2. Another would be fear or concern is that you may halt what may be progress on H's part this last few months or weeks. He has been showing interest in you and in family that he has not shown for quite sometime. You think that what you have been doing ( I still think it's a modified plan A but you haven't commented on it directly that I recall.) may have been working and you wonder if you should "mess with success." Or it other words, if you were doing something right, would you just drive him away if you have this talk? I believe that is your concern. <p>3. This is really part of # 1. It is your sons relationship with their father. But I think you are more worried for your H. If you divorce, sons may become even more distant and even choose not to see their father at all as they get older. This may drive H further down the path he is traveling now. He may loose all ties with what is good and right and their may be no hope for him ever being able to come back to God. <p>I think these are some of your biggest concerns. Not so much for yourself, but for H and sons. <p>I am glad In laws are close to you, and on your side. They know him well, have they given you any suggestions or are they as shocked and hurt as you are? If your Husbands pride prevents him from coming back unless he thinks it is his idea, perhaps there is nothing they can do for him. I suspect you have spoken to them about him more than once in the last 18 months. Do in-laws have any advice for you? Have you discussed what you are trying to do, and why you are trying so hard? Many more questions come to mind but I had best leave this alone for now. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> It was great fun catching up and dancing etc. I realised at the end that I hadn't missed H at all although I would have done not so long ago. <hr></blockquote> <p>It is good you will be speaking with H soon. I believe you need to do it for you, if not for H. You have been strong, but no one can go on for ever working with a spouse that lives with someone else. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I did think it was shame he missed it as he would have enjoyed it. He was invited but told me he was relieved to have a good excuse to miss as he would have been embarrassed. <hr></blockquote> <p>This is one of the things he will have to face if/when he returns. He may have fears that others will judge him harshly and he may be afraid to face those fears. If he ever expresses a desire to reconcile, this is something that should be discussed The bottom line is, if he finally does the right thing, people should be happy for him, not angry or vindictive. Everyone should rejoice when the prodigal returns ( to quote both you and the bible.) <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> This whole area of not missing him- is it signs of loss of love and there fore time for Plan B ? <hr></blockquote> <p>If you have read Forgivers thread on Just found Out, you could see what happens when you wait too long. It seems to me, that she lost her love very rapidly in the end. Does it make a withdrawal whenever you think of H? He is not there, he is with someone else, he is not taking care of you as a husband should take care of his wife. He doesn't meet your needs, you long for affection, love, and kindness to be show you. You want a companion and friend. (please forgive me for bringing these things up, I know they touch wounds.) Is it mostly the things he is doing wrong, or is it the needs you have that he does not fulfill? <p> Plan B??? Do it before you have to confess that you don't care if he ever returns, before you must say that you are done with him.
( edit) I just noticed this link on another thread and thought I would put it in here. When go to plan B, D etc. <p>You still don't know what will happen when you speak with him. None of us here knows that. God however, does know. As both you and I have said, he wants you to succeed in your efforts, he will teach you what to do. This I firmly believe. <p>I had commented that I believe you usually always do things that you feel strongly about doing. You had never really said anything about my observation. Shall I add humility to your personality traits? <p>Well, are you tired of me being so long winded?
I have some homework for you this time. What are your husbands strengths and weaknesses?
What things does he still do right? What led him to where he is now? <p>I believe I have found one strength. I believe he is kind. That he, believes in helping those that need help. Is this correct? <p>If I am off on any of this stuff, correct me. I don't even pretend to know everything, and I would hate to continue on a wrong track. <p>" May the bluebird of happiness sing by your window - until his song is successful." <p>SS<p>[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Hi SS What an amazing read. Its as if you know H and myself and yes I would say you are spoton in most if not all of what you said. Haven't time to comment on all points just now but will come BACK LATER AND READ THROUGH AGAIN AND THEN POST. JANTE

Hi Here are my comments on your post. hanks for taking time to consider my situation.
"I think it a good exercise to do what espoir suggested, but I don't think you will find out anything you don't know. ( I think it good because anything you do to have your situation clear in your mind will help with conversation with H.) I believe you are not afraid of divorce. I think you want your marriage back, but I think you accepted the possibility of D a few months ago, perhaps about the time you changed your reaction to what your H was doing. "<p>Yes I suppose I have accepted the idea of D but really would like to save my marriage. However despite praying and reading all on rejoice ministries I feel my ;hopeis dying fast. I then feel guilty for not having enough faith to see my marriage healed!<p>1.So what are you afraid of? Or is it really fear? I'm not sure it would be fear of divorce at all. I do believe though, that you are concerned ( is that a better word to use?) or afraid for your Husband. You do love him, and know if he doesn't come back, he will never really be happy again - ever. He has broken vows to you, but has also broken his relationship with God. I think you are more concerned for H and his relationship to God than you are for your Marriage. The marriage problems are just a sign of the greater problem.

Yes I think my fear is really concern for my H&#8217;s soul and my own in this situation. I feel that he is at risk because he has turned his back on God but also I am concerned that because I believe D is wrong and yet am coming to a place where I am accepting of it( and wanting to move on with my life including another relationship should that be a possibility) then I am going against God. This is the first time I have felt like this as usually I have been very happy to walk the way God has wanted me to.

2."I have wondered how a person with so much invested in trying to follow God could turn away so quickly and become so lost. My belief is ( understand that I don't know him well) that he found himself lonely and far from his family, and instead of turning to God, or returning home, took solace in the arms of someone else. Now he has invested some much time in going down the wrong path, he doesn't what to even think about it , because it brings to much guilt and sorrow. Lets leave this one for a bit<p>I&#8217;m sure you are right in this assessment."
H is also a very proud person it was an area of his character that many church leaders tried to work with H on. However having &#8216;sinned&#8217; I&#8217;m sure H was devastated at his own loss of ideal and so now can&#8217;t face admitting it and dealing with it. I don&#8217;t think there is much I can do to help H however much I may want to.<p>2.Another would be fear or concern is that you may halt what may be progress on H's part this last few months or weeks. He has been showing interest in you and in family that he has not shown for quite sometime. You think that what you have been doing ( I still think it's a modified plan A but you haven't commented on it directly that I recall.) may have been working and you wonder if you should "mess with success." Or it other words, if you were doing something right, would you just drive him away if you have this talk? I believe that is your concern.<p>
Again I think you are right.
My plan whether A or modified has been to be his friend, to meet those needs he would allow, affirming him and his actions where ever possible. I have refrained from any OR talks for 4 months because they were LB as I became so emotional. He hasn&#8217;t allowed much in the way of meeting his needs for affection, sex or any physical contact but has allowed us to work together as a family unit.I have also got on with developing a liffe of my own and with ensuring that I look after myself.I do worry that by having a OR talk of any kind I will push him away again.<p>3. This is really part of # 1. It is your sons relationship with their father. But I think you are more worried for your H. If you divorce, sons may become even more distant and even choose not to see their father at all as they get older. This may drive H further down the path he is traveling now. He may loose all ties with what is good and right and their may be no hope for him ever being able to come back to God. I think these are some of your biggest concerns. Not so much for yourself, but for H and sons.<p> Yes quite true. H is losing sight of the boys though he doesn&#8217;t realise it. As for them they are starting to object to church etc. partly cos of H&#8217;s actions. H still wants them to go to church and have their own walk with God despite his own actions.<p>
I am glad In laws are close to you, and on your side. They know him well, have they given you any suggestions or are they as shocked and hurt as you are? If your Husbands pride prevents him from coming back unless he thinks it is his idea, perhaps there is nothing they can do for him. I suspect you have spoken to them about him more than once in the last 18 months. Do in-laws have any advice for you? Have you discussed what you are trying to do, and why you are trying so hard?<p> I have talked to MIL about how I feel. They have no suggestions or advice except to pray and hold in there. They saw that we get on so well when together and feel that that gives hope for the marriage..
quote: I did think it was shame he missed it as he would have enjoyed it. He was invited but told me he was relieved to have a good excuse to miss as he would have been embarrassed. This is one of the things he will have to face if/when he returns. He may have fears that others will judge him harshly and he may be afraid to face those fears. If he ever expresses a desire to reconcile, this is something that should be discussed The bottom line is, if he finally does the right thing, people should be happy for him, not angry or vindictive. Everyone should rejoice when the prodigal returns ( to quote both you and the bible.)<p> I know this is probably a concern for him but I also know that all our friends will welcome him back and rejoice that he has returned.<p>I had commented that I believe you usually always do things that you feel strongly about doing. You had never really said anything about my observation. Shall I add humility to your personality traits? <p>Don&#8217;t know about humility I certainly try to do the right thing in any situation and believe that if I can see it is the right thing then I do it.
I have some homework for you this time. What are your husbands strengths and weaknesses? What things does he still do right? What led him to where he is now?
Will go away and think through this some more.Thanks Jante [ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: jante ]</p>

I will wait until you have finished responding to questions about Husband before I comment. I hope to get my computer at home repaired tomorrow and I may post from home if I am able to do so. <p>I have been thinking hard about your sons. They need their father to be doing what a father should. It will affect them badly if things do not work out. ( but I feel they will work out, sorry, no real reason, just a feeling.) <p>Albert Switzer (sp?) said there are three ways to teach children.
1. Example
2. Example
3. Example<p>Husband is teaching wether he wants to or not. <p>Now, about you.
You do seem to be smiling more lately, that is good. It affects everything you do. It will even affect discussion with H for good. Promise. <p>SS<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Well its Homework time.
H's strengths when we were together
- he is kind
very sure of himself
a father who loves his kids and
tries to do the best as he sees it.
Hard worker
Clear thinking
Strong walk with God
Affectionate
Good company
Weaknesses - pride
not good at finishing things
not good handling finance
unwilling to accept blame/being
wrong
these are the obvious ones which spring to mind. Its hard seeing his strengths- these are listed as they were he obviously isn't displaying all of them now.
Jante