Sorry SS rtealised that your comment about 3am was in answer to my post about good ideas not the time i made my last post!!
I only wake up some nights at 3am and then usually get back to sleep fairly quickly.
Jante

Hi J,
Yes, I was speaking of you being awake and thinking early in the morning when you should be sleeping. You are six hours off the MB Server (it time stamps all posts with it's local time) and 7 hours different than my time zone. Still, 11:30 is late, perhaps I SHOULD STILL ring your mum.

No, really, I was worried that you were not sleeping well at night. It is common but I believed you were past that. From what you say, I suppose you are past it, so I will worry about someone else.

Tomorrow I will try and make some statements about where I think you are and where you need to go from here. I have just finished a deadline at work (about five minutes ago) and it will be easier to take some time for part of a day. I won't travel again until next week. (Actually, I may have to go this Friday but I don't think so.)

SS

Hello Jante,

Today I'll talk about you a little bit. ( I am taking this all from things I remember that you have said. )

You seem to have done a good plan A for 6 or 7 months. H has responded in some ways It seems to me that he trusts you on a day to day basis not to LB.

Some things seem out of the ordinary. He visits his parents with you. He comes and does things for you still. He converses with you and seems to enjoy it. He goes on outings with you and the boys, he actually invites you !

I would say you are still meeting some of his needs. I think that is good.

Lets see, you .......
Support yourself. You do all of the children's care as well as keeping up the home and working full time.

Study regularly ways to improve yourself. Also, ways to recover your marriage.

Put in to practice what you learn.

Went back to school to improve your job skills.

Remain active in church service and help others.

Support your boys in their sports activities.

Still suffer from low self esteem sometimes because H left.

Now, it's this last one I wish to address for a short time. J, it's not your fault. Part of you that is so kind to him - is because you are a kind, caring person. Part of it is from Guilt. You need to see if you can get past this guilt part to go on. I believe you need to make some changes in the way you relate to him. I believe you are probably getting this same advice from others. I don't mean plan B. ( as I have said before, this would be logical, but lately, I don't feel it is right for you.)

Isn't it time for him to see what he would be loosing? I also suggest you ask MIL one more time if she has any advice for you. I know these things are never far from your mind, so I won't ask you to concentrate on them.

That's all for today. Next time, will discuss H and his progress ( or lack of it)
There are other things you can try that may help him to see.

SS

Hi SS .
You seem to have done a good recap of where I and H are at so I'll just say yes to all you said. The letting the children go and stay with dad/making him take more ressposibilty I think falls into your last category for me. I have made a big change here rather than carry the load myself I have pushed dome of it on to him. it will make him realise what he is losing / and having to do himself. i do feel guilty about it but feel it is the right thing to do so have gone with it. Recently we have spent little time together and this is likely to continue through August so again it may just make him wake up and realise something is missing.
We will also have a few hours together at our old scottish home next weekend- I am wondering if this may just jolt some awareness into him as it will be the first time in over a year we have been there together.
Will keep you posted about developments but I am in fairly good spirits despite the impending disappearance of children.
jante

Hi J,

It's always good to hear from you, see how you are doing. Someday I believe many of us will have a chance to meet in a far better place than this and have a chance to express our love and admiration for each other, and our thanks. It helps me a lot to see your courage and strength. Keep it up.

I find I need to take yesterdays post a little further. You are making some changes in the way you react to him. However, it is a deeper thing than that. I believe he still sees you as dependent on him. I think he sees you as being kind to him because you are afraid of his being completely gone and you want him to stay at least a little in your life.

We often see others actions in light of our own point of view. You have so much good in you that you see his coming back and helping as love that he still has for you. Is it love, or some other motivation? Some do it out of guilt, some out of kindness, ( a twisted kind of kindness) some out of love. I happen to think his is out of love, but I think you get the idea. He does not always see your actions for what they are. I believe he sees you doing all these kind things, spending time with him, remaining nice etc. etc. as being weak, not because you love him. You and I and all your friends and your MIL and FIL know it is because of strong you are. You could have left, but out of love and concern for him you have tried to help him, get him to come home.

His ideas and point of view are so affected by what he has done, he doesn't understand you at all. That's why he has asked you " how could you still love me after what I have done." He can't understand that kind of love, so he has this false image in his mind. " She is weak, and I am so great she can't let go of me." Does this fit? Make sense to you?

So, it is a deeper thing than a few changes in actions will fix. You actually need to make SOME OF the changes inside yourself that you would make if a divorce was final. Now think of it, how would you really act if that happened? What would be different? We tend to think of external changes, and indeed that is where I have focused. You would not get him from the train, he would not eat meals with you. You would not go on outings with him any longer. As I think, that is not where the changes need to be. You have as much said you couldn't do plan B as long as you are married to him. I believe you can continue to do those things but that he needs to see a different you emotionally. That is mostly what I am referring to.

So, lets discuss that part. What kind of changes would take place inside you. Many of them have been done, and he has seen them. We discussed them yesterday. Job, home, education.

Others changes that would be still to come. And remember, these are mostly changes that would take place inside of you.

You take care of the problems with the children yourself. Sure he will always be their father, sure he has a big effect on them. However, if you were divorced, even you would look at it differently. You would simply handle the problems. I don't think you would call him as much about it, when you did discuss it, it would be for information, to let him know, not for advice. Especially if you were to remarry. ( I say this for effect only )

Posture, Body Language, the words you use, the way you say things.
People are very different when they are committed, and when they are detached. You are not a good actresses where your feelings are concerned. He knows you are committed, but as mentioned, I believe he takes it wrong. This is a hard one and there is only one thing I can suggest to change these basic behaviors. You need to start making plans to change your life. What would you do if D was final? How would your life change? As you study and find answers to these questions, you will change.

The down side is, it will also drain your LB somewhat. Your mind will say it is over, why not make the changes. But still, even with the danger, I think you need to emotionally detach. This is hard thing for me to explain, I know you are very intelligent, but I worry that I have explained it well enough for you to understand. I don't mean you should change many of the things you do for him. But with the change inside of you, many of the small things will change and he will see it.

Lets move on:
The letting the children go and stay with dad/making him take more responsibility I think falls into your last category for me. I have made a big change here rather than carry the load myself I have pushed dome of it on to him. it will make him realize what he is losing / and having to do himself. i do feel guilty about it but feel it is the right thing to do so have gone with it.
This is a good thing. There are perhaps others you can do like this. Please don't feel guilty, I feel God helped you do this, for his ( Husbands) good.

Recently we have spent little time together and this is likely to continue through August so again it may just make him wake up and realize something is missing.
Also good, at least it will give you a baseline of whether less contact helps, or hurts.

We will also have a few hours together at our old Scottish home next weekend- I am wondering if this may just jolt some awareness into him as it will be the first time in over a year we have been there together. All kinds of suggestions come to mind, but I find I can't say any of them. I feel very strongly that this is a good thing. God will give you feelings of what to do there, you need to follow them and not hold back. I hope he ( God) lets you feel this as strongly as I do right now.

Will keep you posted about developments but I am in fairly good spirits despite the impending disappearance of children. jante

They are most of your world right now. I think you will miss them a great deal when they are gone. But let me perhaps expand your horizon a little. We sometimes say " do things for yourself" Expecting you to take your mind off of the bad. Thoughts come to mind of buying new clothes, or taking up a hobby. There is a lot more depth to this if you think a little. What would see if you had the ability to see the smallest physical things on the earth., if you could see everything that God sees. I mean, it would take you a long time to be bored, wouldn't it. If when you walked by the trees, you could see the bird in their nests. If you could see the bees in the hive, the fish in the ocean. There is a lot more to this - I know you can imagine it.

Now, what is in the spiritual world? What does God understand about you, that you can't see. What does he know about your H, about your sons? Can you see ? If you asked God to tell you things about yourself, could he do so? Could he tell you more about your H?

One of the things I suggest you do for your self is find out more about yourself that God knows that you do not. Ask him to show you things you need to know. He will do so. I believe he has already shown you in the last year that you have more inside than you thought. I would like to say more but cannot. So I'll close again.

J, so often we limit ourselves. You are doing well, these things you are doing are good. God sees the very best that you can become and pushes you to be that person. So, heres a gentle nudge in that direction.

I am very glad you are in good spirits. I admit I still worry about you.

SS

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS and thanlks for your thought provoking words. have not been able to send h a copy of his testimony as i can't find it,. I've looked where i last remember seeing it and every where else i can think of! Not sure whether this is a sign that its wrong time to send it, enemy action or H found it on his last visit and removed/destroyed it.I understand what you are saying about detaching emotionally but find it difficult to do further than I already have. That said I haven't been phoning H for advice recently and ewven when he has offered advice on certain things ( not children) have decided for myself the best way ahead and not necessarily taken his advice. this is a big change for me and ihave observed a startled look on H's face when it has happened.
The children have now left with dad to visit scotland and i am pursuing my own life and praying for gudance as to direction for the future. Will pop in again later in week to let you know how I am doing. Jante

<small>[ August 04, 2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: jante ]</small>

HI J,

I don't know what to say about the missing testimony. Perhaps it would be enough to remind him of his own healing and ask him to pray for his father. That may get the point across???

I understand what you are saying about detaching emotionally but find it difficult to do further than I already have.
It is a very hard thing to do. As I have said, I marvel about what you have been able to do. God has granted you some great blessings. ( some would not think them blessings, but look at all you have been able to accomplish.) When all of these marriage problems are over, you will still have all that you have accomplished, and you will still be a much improved person. .

BTW, I have never heard the story of his healing, is it something you can tell us?

........and not necessarily taken his advice. this is a big change for me and I have observed a startled look on H's face when it has happened
That would be fun to observe. Did you grin after he left?

I think I said in the last big post all that I needed to say about H for now. I will let you think about that one for a time.

SS

Hi SS, thanks for replying feeling low today- lack of human contact as all friends ,neighbours and other staff at work all on holiday!!
however will tell the story of H's testimony and it may well help to lift my spirits- as I remember Gods goodness and grace.
H was diagnosed with Krohns disease just after we were married. This is a disease of the digestive tract and although similar to IBS much more severe. the result of the disease is continual flare up of infection and inflamation of the digestive tract. this in turn results in lack of absorbtion of nutrients and a loss of weight. The other problem is the inflamed and infected areas of the digestive tract have to be removed.
After one such op h developed abscesses of the anal passage- very painful. these in turn had to be operated on and cleaned and packed. After a number of these episodes and when our eldest was just 5 months old H had to have another abscess operated on. (Durng this time we and the church and constantly prayer for his healing and God had promised the healing would come as H prayed for others to be healed. In obedience he prayed and saw many healed as he prayed!!) After this last op H developed a post operative infection. ythree others were on the ward with himat the time with similar infections. One died , 2 were permanently paralysed. H was suffering from creeping paralysis and on one evening had to be put in the IC unit because it was so serious. The elder and a couple of other men went in from the church and prayed for H. Within a week he left hospital fully recovered from the paralysis and since that day has had no sign of Krohns disase. he has also doubled his weight- at his lowest he reached 7 stone and now is hovering on the edge of 14 stone.
He for years has given glory to god for this healing but when we went for m.counselling last yr, shrugged his shoulders when it was mentioned.
That is the story and i've used it many times in the classroom when discussing the miracles of god and whjether they still happen today. the children always have trouble refuting this one!!
Hope this gives you more insight into where h has come from and the problems he now has in admitting his need for god. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jante

Hello J,

Hi SS, thanks for replying feeling low today- lack of human contact as all friends ,neighbors and other staff at work all on holiday!! however will tell the story of H's testimony and it may well help to lift my spirits-
This is a hard one, if my feelings are correct, you will struggle with this during your whole holliday. My experience says the only cure for this is to do something for someone else. Find someone that needs help and help them. Seems that the very times we most want time to ourselves, the only way we can be happy is to help others. If you are who I think you are, you will know what I mean.

Thank you very much for the story of T's healing. It was a very good read and I feel that he does owe his health to God.

That is the story and I've used it many times in the classroom when discussing the miracles of god and whether they still happen today.
I agree, they still happen today. I could tell you stories also. God hasn't changed any since the days of Moses. He can still do the miracles, if we have the faith.
It's just that so many of us on this earth lack the faith to get the help we need.

Hope this gives you more insight into where h has come from and the problems he now has in admitting his need for god. Jante
Yes it does, and I believe you should remind him that he was healed, and his father can be also if he is willing to have faith and pray for his father as everyone did for him. You and I both know that he cannot do it in his present condition. I don't think you should "rub it in" but just make a simple request and tell him from time to time that you are praying for FIL and hope he is lending his faith also. I believe God will imprint the message on his heart so that he cannot escape it.

I remind you again, that God knows not just everything about who you are, but he knows who and what you can become. When he prompts you to do something, I hope you believe that he knows what he is doing, and that you trust enough to go ahead with whatever it is. Sometimes he will lead you along so fast, you will struggle to keep up. When you have to run to keep up, run. He will give you a rest later.

Happy Holiday.

SS

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS and i agree helping others would help- just need to find the others!! However did chat on line and give support to others who face this situation yesterday and that helped me- so it does not need to be face to face.
Today I have had my house valued- prices are soaring in England- mine has been valued at 50% more than I bought it for. I am going to see my pastor tonight to talk to him about my plans ( or lack of them) for the future. I'm still weighing and praying about scotland but this equity in the house- especially as it appears scottish prices haven't risen as much, does help make the impossible seem possible. I would need a quick sale and a job to make the move but the boys like the idea and I feel peaceful about it- but then i feel peaceful at staying here as well . So thats not an indicator this time as it has been in the past.
I do know my church situation has to change in some measure but will allow God to speak about that as well.
Will pray carefully about the timing for speaking to Tr about his father- I'm not afraid to but want it to be the right time to have maximum effect.
Thanks again for your prayers and support it really does help.
Jante

Hi J,

There are a lot of things I don't know about your situation. I don't know all you have to juggle each day. I don't know when you go to bed sad, or when you wake up happy, although some if your feelings are reflected in your posts.

I do know that God knows you and your situation and is helping you directly. I can't explain how strong these feelings are right now as I am writing this. He is helping you and will keep helping you as long as long as you are listening to him. I believe you know this, I don't expect you to comment on it, just want you to know that these feelings are coming to me and wanted to pass them on to you . Perhaps it will help you to be strong when the bad days come.

I want to say again that I only try to help. I am not any better than any other that comes here. I came because I needed help, and I have found a great deal of help for myself. I strongly believe that you are doing a very good job at this most difficult task that has been placed before you. Please don't think when I recommend something that I am saying you were not doing a good job already. I usually recommend something so you will look at it perhaps from a different angle, or because I feel prompted to do so. J, I believe you are doing a very good job. ( I would comment on your face turning red, but my mum told me a gentleman never says anything.)

I say again, I believe you are doing a very good job. I know you don't get that kind of feedback from H and you need to hear it from someone besides FIL and MIL. Yes, I pray for your family each day, and for many others here on MB. I pray for my own family, for myself and my W. I need the help as much as anyone. You mentioned the enemy in one post. I could tell you stories about that also, it is a very real thing to me. That is why I worry about so many here on MB. We stumble and they are quick to knock us down and stomp on us. I pray for you to keep your feet when you must travel a very rocky road, often in the dark of night. I keep asking the Lord to give you a good torch with new batteries, and running shoes.

I hope you are smiling when you finish this, smiles help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

See you tomorrow,

SS

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
jante

Have a nice time traveling,
I will be away myself.

bye,

SS

[ Appropriate greeting for time of day, good morning, good evening etc. ]

Hi J,
I don't remember you saying how long you would be gone, but when you get back, I (for one) want to know what happened.

I trust enough that you are in good spirits that I only worry ( a little) about you today. Wishing you good health and happines.

SS

Hi SS and anyone else who might still read my thread!!
Had a lovely weekend and think I may have just about decided to move to Scotland!! Its hard to know what to do for the best but certainly enjoyed my time there. My old friend and an elder in the church there told me after I had shared how I was feeling that the senior elders wife had felt God calling her to pray for me recently as it was time for me to return! She had no idea from me that I was thinking about it!!
I have also spent a couple of days on my own in the Lake District praying- I feel quite peaceful about moving but a little concerned about the boys education. So wull pray some more tonight. Jante

Hi Jante and Still Seeking,
Wow! I read through all your threads tonight and I was so impressed! Still Seeking you are such a great friend and your advise has been very interesting and I am so sure helpful to Jante.
Jante my Grandmother was from England, New Castle area. My Mother still talks about it and misses it much!
I have had a rough go of my WH also and I tried to do a longer plan A but he continued to come and upset me till I though I'd be hospitalized with a breakdown. He would say nasty things, kiss and hug me, blamed me for all, wrote me a very disrespectful letter so last Tues I gave H another Plan B letter and this one worked as I have not heard from him since. (He also is hiding from me, no address, no support and I am on workers comp with surgery for a bad tendon pending on the 26th of this month. I have to go by myself as no one to do it). I hated to do plan B as I love him with all my heart. He still deny's ongoing A! I hate all the lies! Thank the Lord we do not have children. I would have someone around though as I live in New York State in the country on 5 acres without people around for a mile! Family are so far away. I do go but they are an hour away. No friends. I come on here nightly and I just love this site! I have had such a support team and if not doing posts I read which is great for uplifts! God is very close on here and makes me feel so loved. Well I just had to pop in and say hi and that I loved your thread! It encourages us all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi LoveNcare,
I am a guest on this thread but thank you for your comments, Jante is on holiday and I don't know how often she will post right now. I believe she would welcome you here on a permanant basis if you want to come back often.

I am sorry for your troubles, sorry for your H and his A, sorry for your pain. Will pray for you also. I hope God gives you help from day to day to get through and grow and have many positive experiances along with the bad you are going through.

I can see you are a lot like Jante, you have faith in God, you are strong enough to do what needs to be done. It's hard to make a statement like this from one post ( that's all I have read of you) but I believe it is accurate.

Welcome to this part of MB, I hope you continue to find help and comfort here.

SS

Hello J,
Let me speak about the said, then I will comment on the unsaid.

You may move - well, let me say "God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform." I have always believed he would show you the way, I think he is doing it. I can't say I understand why, but he always does.

Unsaid -
No word from you about what you are doing so I believe you are very busy on holiday. I think you have about 2 months worth of things to do and you are trying to get them to fit into 3 weeks. Knowing you, you will get at least 6 weeks to fit in the three, at least that many. Keep working on those most important things. As they say " Put first things first."

You will have very little time after the boys get back. I agree that you need to make this time count for all you can.

All the best,

SS

Hi SS and welcome LoveNcare.
Have tried today to put things in motion to sell my home and look to moving to Scotland but can't get to the point of asking the estate agent to put house on market. I know in my head all the reasons why it seems to be a good move- and while i was there went from saying if i move to when i move but now I am fearful of making a mighty mistake. I just don't want to do this on my own. I don't feel strong enough to cope with the practicalities and worry that by moving I am going to disrupt my childrens education even more.
Its one of those times when i wish my H as alongside me making the decsions with me not leaving me to make them on ny own.
I know no one else can do it for me- I have to do so but find it very painful at the moment.
Jante

Hi J,
Glad you are back home safely.
Many, Many times I have wished that I could help you with these kinds of things. I cannot directly, so I pray for you. The feelings we have at these times cannot be adequately described with words. All alone in the world - I agree you should not be alone in this. Really you are not, you have unseen friends ( earthly and heavenly.) Your heavenly friends are helping directly, I wish you could see them, and speak with them. Someday you will and you will thank them. At that someday, you will know the extent of their help and you will be very grateful. I think you are grateful now, but it will feel different when you embrace them and thank them personally. One of the things they will tell you: " J, we always had faith that you would make it - we never doubted you."

Having said all this, and it is true, I wish your H was there with you as he should be. I am sorry he is not. You did not comment on your meeting with him in Scotland. I know you had hopes it would perhaps spark some feelings in him. No comment probably means it did not - at least visibly. As I recall, you intended to have H come in to Elders home while you were there with sons. Perhaps none of it worked like you intended.

You were also to spend a little time with sons, hope they are well. Just them saying they are well would tend to make you sad, I ( were I in your place) would probably hope they had missed me and - well, you know what I could go on saying. So, after thinking about it some what longer, sad may be the order of the day if you let yourself dwell on the bad.

Perhaps we could take things a more positive direction. Jesus said " I am the way, the truth, and the life, he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." J, I don't think he means we will live in sadness or misery - do you? I can see you shaking your head no, no you don't believe that. He means in glory and happiness. He means all our troubles will be taken away, and we will have rest. ( this quote was from memory, don't have the bible here for reference today, so If I am off a little, I believe you know the quote anyway. )

Meanwhile, you are in that VERY HOT refiners fire, and it BURNS. He won't protect you from those cleansing burns, but he will heal them all in the end. I believe that in this, as in all the other things you have overcome, you will reach down inside, and bring up the strength to make work whatever he whispers for you to do.

I recommend (and remember, I believe you already know this stuff, I am just providing positive reinforcement) that you should make a decision based on the information you have gathered. I recommend you take that to him in prayer, and ask him if it is right. I believe if it is, you will feel a comforting feeling wash over you, if not, you will feel dark, not sure, troubled. I believe you will know in this way what to do. Please don't be afraid, he won't let you fall as long as you reach for him with all your heart. If he wants you to go, he will help the details work for your good.

I do have a question for you - but it is purely out of curiosity. I believe I remember you once said you teach religion. What exactly do you teach, I mean, what is the broad overview of what you will cover in a year, and what would you teach on a day to day basis ( like, what is covered this week? - additonal notes, I realize you are on holiday, I mean in a typical week) I work in a retail store from day to day selling camping equipment. Perhaps I bore you with all the scriptures I quote. It occurred to me that you may know far, far more than I do. You don't have to answer this one, (none of them really) I was just curious, so I asked.

And by the way, are you getting enough sleep? your Mum wanted me to check on you.

SS

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>