Just Learning posted this remark in another thread. I thought I'd quote him here and offer some of my thoughts regarding a conversation about honesty with my IC this morning:<p>"Personally, I like the point that pain of radical honesty is better for a marriage than the bliss of ignorance. I am a strong believer in the concept that there is no free lunch, and that hiding things causes damage although often very rarely recognized until it is too late."<p>In my IC session this morning, I talked about my concerns that my W may still be in contact with OM even though she's been clearly devoting a lot more attention to US recently. I told my IC that H&O is my #1 EN, and that it doesn't appear to be nearly as important to my W as it should be, and so I wonder about our future, even if OM is "served" a no contact letter at some point. <p>He talked about As that end without the BS knowing anything ever happened, and I noted that my W thought she had done that (twice!), but that my discovery of their email traffic in January punctured all her balloons of "telling me in her own time when things were better between us". He told me that he often counsels WS that have had As and ended them without the BS knowledge, NOT to tell them about the A. That these days the literature recommends "measured honesty" in a relationship, and that this would be one form of measured honesty, whereby the BS is only given the "truth" that they "need" to know, as an effort to protect them from the pain of the whole truth (radical honesty). <p>I pointed out a number of arguments that we've all participated in regarding this very subject - dealing with As and how they end and whether and what the BS should be told about what's transpired. I pointed out that, by NOT telling the BS about an A, if the BS then finds out about it, say years later, the devastation is all the more severe and perhaps "unrecoverable." Like, what if I hadn't found out about my W's A until I was 70 years old? Could I start over with a new "life partner" then? Similarly, if I had been TOLD of her A when (or better, BEFORE) it started 11 years ago, I COULD have done plan A THEN, and either had a better M the past 11 years or had ANOTHER one by now. <p>Point being, though D-day was extremely painful for me (and everybody else I've ever talked to that's lived it), I now have a CHOICE that I didn't have 11 years ago, and would possibly never have had if I hadn't found out what I did when I did.<p>In summary, in my humble opinion (I like to spelll things out - takes less time than holding the caps key and typing the acronym [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] :<p>1) Honesty is not just the best policy, there's no reason to have any other policy if it's not the number one policy.<p>2) Radical Honesty may "hurt" for a while, but it saves great pain in the long term (and it's fair to both parties in a M), and it's conducive to CHOICE.<p>And now... (drum roll, please) we have 2LONG'S POSTULATE:<p>3) Measured Honesty, by definition, has a "hidden" corrollary, which I will now label "MEASURED DISHONESTY". By metering out "honesty" one is employing dishonesty at the same time. Lies of omission. It's that simple.<p>Having an A is just as much "measured honesty" as it is deceit, again In My Humble Opinion! I will have NONE of it.

AMEN!!!<p>H&O IS MY #2!!! And I agree wholeheartedly! Not giving full disclosure of anything that is important in your life or your spouses is definately a LB and DISHONESTY at its core.<p>I love this post. I think I will email it to WH.<p>*smile*<p>J~<p>[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: hokeewife ]<p>[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: hokeewife ]</p>

Thanks, hokeewife (love that moniker!).<p>Honesty has been very much on my mind of late, but I haven't been able to sort out what I think about it re our M since I've been so distracted with OM for the past 4 months!!! It all came to a head at my IC this morning, and I'm feeling pretty good so far about the outcome (I think I "educated" my IC today!). I can't wait to hear others' thoughts on this issue. Particularly because "radical honesty" gets people on the defensive (particularly the WS) when they first hear about it, but also because so many people, I find, don't seem to think that a "little white lie" is anything to worry about, and even can be a "useful tool" at times!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Great post. I agree with you 100%. H&O is also my #1 EN. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> He told me that he often counsels WS that have had As and ended them without the BS knowledge, NOT to tell them about the A.<hr></blockquote><p>I disagree with this completely!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> That these days the literature recommends "measured honesty" in a relationship, and that this would be one form of measured honesty, whereby the BS is only given the "truth" that they "need" to know, as an effort to protect them from the pain of the whole truth (radical honesty). <hr></blockquote><p>Did you ask him who determines the "truth" and "need"? It would of course be the WS, and as if they're in the right frame of mind to determine this for the BS!<p>H&S

H&S:<p>"Did you ask him who determines the "truth" and "need"?"<p>No, but I sure as heck will when I visit him next! Heck, I may bring it up before, when WE visit our MC next week!<p>"It would of course be the WS, and as if they're in the right frame of mind to determine this for the BS!"<p>Isn't it amazing how primitive we humans are? Even those of us with advanced degrees?<p>P.S. I remember the day OJ was on his "slow speed chase" across LA. I was on the same freeway going toward him. People were already abandoning their cars and running across the freeway or gathering on the overpasses to get a glimpse of the excitement of a white Ford Bronco going by at a blistering 45mph. Fortunately, he switched freeways before I got caught in a jam. But I remember thinking: "Humanity needs another 3 million years of evolution to be worthy!"

white lies to me are a means to manipulate people to do what you want.... ie not get angry, hurt, sad, etc.<p>I hate selfishness and manipulators....<p>this post is making me think too much<p>bleh!<p>*giggle*<p>J~

Ok... I don't feel like editing to add... one more thought on this topic<p>The TRUTH is for people who are STRONG. Weak minded people need not apply cause they have no strength to deal with the other person on a honest level. The cannot take responsibility for their actions and face the consequence. Hence you find people who like to mix it up a bit. Add the Truth to a Lie so it seems not so dishonest and they can live with it, and make themselves feel better by not causing the other person distress or hurt. <p>RESPONSIBLE for thought and deed will prove no need to lie. I believe this strongly. COnsequences happen when people make mistakes. That is human nature. Lies remove the consequences, hide the actions.... allow the person freedom from learning their mistakes are just THAT "mistakes". <p> We all learn and grow from our experiences. Lies do not allow the growth to be productive. It causes guilt and frustration in our lives. <p>I love the RADICAL HONESTY thing. I fits "ME". <p>*thinking about the possibility that H&O might be tied for #1 EN*<p>hrmmm<p>J~

Now, it's time to edit the saying:
"What the <BS> doesn't know won't hurt them"
to forumlate:
2LONG'S SECOND POSTULATE:<p>"What the BS doesn't know is a deliberate effort on the part of the WS to rob the BS of the opportunity to make intelligent, difficult decisions that will forever affect their lives, on their own."

I totally agree about the radical honesty thing. I constantly tell my wife that I would rather hear the most painful truth than the most comforting lie. Of course, she continues on the comforting path [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But now I find I'm a hypocrite. In my "investigative" process, I've found that I was certainly withholding the entire truth about how I discovered her activities because I wanted to be able to use those techniques again - I didn't want to lose a valuable tool. So now I'm the "white liar". Is there a difference between her lies and mine? Are mine more moral because I'm trying to uncover hers?

Baffled:<p>How are you man?<p>I agree with you about the snooping issue, and not telling W about what you're doing. In my case, I've still done a little bit of snooping, but for the most part I come right out and ask her what I need to know. If it's a LB question (most are, if you have to snoop to get the answers otherwise), I wait until we're in our MC sessions together, if there's time. But I think I'd say that I don't snoop (certainly not like I did at the beginning), because I already KNOW my W would rather not break contact with OM, and I also know that I'm doing my best plan A I could possibly do, such that I'll "make it" no matter what my W decides to do. <p>I even tell her I post to this site, and I think I even told her my username. She's just not interested. If, at a later time she becomes interested, she's going to have to sift through several hundred (at least) posts from me if she wants to know what I've "said about her". And in so doing, she'll learn a lot about this site, the people on it, and ME and how I've evolved over the past 4 months. If she wants to do that, I have no problem with it anymore, because if she gets angry and wants to quit our M because of something she finds I said, then it will be clear that a R with her isn't something that I desperately need.<p>I don't think she'll ever come here, though. But if she does, I don't think she'd react negatively to what I've participated in, overall.<p>Again, Baffled, glad to hear from you again! Let us know how you're doing, eaukeigh?

Let me add my 2 cents. I agree that honesty is the best policy, however, rushing to reveal honesty may in turn tell a lie. Here's what I mean:<p>I contemplated telling my WH that I might have had an EA a year ago. But after research on this site, discussions with posters here and soul searching, I've come to realize that I DID NOT have an EA. Instead I had a friendship and I was placing guilt on myself based on what COULD have happened, not what did. If I had rushed to tell my WH my suspicions when I first developed them, he would be as paranoid now as I am. He would be having the classic BS symptoms. And there's no need for that. I did not have an EA, I am not having an EA, and I have no desire to have an EA. <p>I just think when we start delving into feelings, that sometimes we aren't real sure what our feelings are. Especially when we are so emotional as BSs. I try to be very careful when telling him the truth about what I think, because tomorrow I might change my mind and see things differently. Talk about confusing a FWH that wants to do the right things for recovery!!

2long - <p>I'm doing OK, thanks. We had our first session with Steve H. on Tuesday, and it was a very quiet couple of days after that. One thing that happened is that she overheard me telling Steve that I used a GPS to keep track of where she was going. She went out and searched the car for it and ripped out what she thought was it. Unfortunately, it was the power supply to the DVD player. To her credit, she patched up the wires and got it working again (with phone help from OM [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>So I don't know if the quiet was due to finding out about the GPS or the talk she had with Steve. When I asked her, she just said that she thought that Steve was going to want her on a timeline - and then said that it really was probably my timeline. I said I had no timeline, but I couldn't take this (her continuing contact) indefinitely. She replied "That's what I mean". Fog talk. Common sense is not in play here.<p>Anyway, I've kind of decided that, like you, there's no point in snooping. She freely admits she won't ("can't") stop contacting OM, so what's to find out except the gory details. So I guess I can go back to radical honesty.

jamup:<p>You're right. When in the thick of trying to survive an A, there's a lot of flopping around that goes on while you get your bearings. For example, I haven't told my W just how close I came to throwing her out and ending our M at the beginning of March, because she doesn't know about my plan A (and just how badly I was doing with it at the time!), or anything else about MB principles really. Also, plan A isn't necessarily as effective if the WS knows what the BS is doing, unless they know ALL ABOUT what plan A is (and so are aware that the BS could become completely independent of them at any moment!). Eventually, I plan to tell my W about Early March, but not until we're really in recovery and making progress. I definitely WON'T do what she did to me - keep it from me for 11 years!<p>I think that radical honesty on a daily maintenance basis would work completely, because none of the "news flashes" could ever get to be so serious a threat to the M before they're dealt with, if they're being dealt with that often. Surviving an A, particularly one that's been secret for years, is different. There's a lot of picking up the pieces and getting back on track to do first. But timing the radical honesty "revelations" to the WS, in particular, is nothing like using "measured dishonesty" as a means for the WS to "protect" the BS from painful truths.

2long,some of you quotes just crack me up."Humanity needs another 3 million years of evolution to be worthy!"<p>lol good one.

Baffled:<p>"I'm doing OK, thanks. We had our first session with Steve H. on Tuesday, and it was a very quiet couple of days after that."<p>My W was very quiet for over a week after our MC told her she needed to choose who to be committed to, R-wise. But then she felt "better" when she thought her IC validated her reaction to my "demanding" no contact as "prepostrous." In short, I haven't, and it isn't.<p>"One thing that happened is that she overheard me telling Steve that I used a GPS to keep track of where she was going. She went out and searched the car for it and ripped out what she thought was it. Unfortunately, it was the power supply to the DVD player. To her credit, she patched up the wires and got it working again (with phone help from OM )"<p>I'm picturing Yoda ripping stuff out of Luke's
luggage!! Sorry, that just struck me as funny is all.<p>"So I don't know if the quiet was due to finding out about the GPS or the talk she had with Steve. When I asked her, she just said that she thought that Steve was going to want her on a timeline - and then said that it really was probably my timeline. I said I had no timeline, but I couldn't take this (her continuing contact) indefinitely. She replied "That's what I mean". Fog talk. Common sense is not in play here."<p>I think that, based on what you've said, her quiet is more due to what she thought Steve was telling her she'd be on a timeline than the GPS thing. If the GPS/snooping thing is an issue, you KNOW what the WS does (mine screamed bloody murder at me for several minutes in a stretch!). Maybe she did that, too, but the quiet wouldn't have been due to the GPS. It reflects some inward thinking (a good sign, when they've done so little of that for so long!)<p>"Anyway, I've kind of decided that, like you, there's no point in snooping. She freely admits she won't ("can't") stop contacting OM, so what's to find out except the gory details. So I guess I can go back to radical honesty."<p>You'll be better able to read her with time, as you get more comfortable with your self-esteem. So, even if she appears to have stopped seeing him, you'd probably be able to tell from her behavior toward you whether it's actually true or not. Hopefully this will happen before you go to a plan B. <p>I think, in my case, my W is just starting to really come out of the fog, and it shows because she's been so sweet to me. Not only is she calling me from work, just to say hi, but she's actually enjoying her work better (and she supervises a bunch of whiners!!!). We've been closer in the past week than we have been in over 11 years, I'm certain!<p>But I'll stay on my guard.

I have been using radical honesty in many ways, and I'm demanding it of him. (fortunately I think he's being honest). I've been telling him when other men compliment me, not to make him jealous, but to help protect me from having a retaliatory affair. I have not explained to him that that's the reason since I have no desire to have an affair. I just feel like when I tell him what these men say that I'm not hiding anything from him, and lies build upon lies, deceit builds upon deceit, so the best way to keep those things from entering my life is to tell him when someone gets a little to personal with me. Also when a co-worker seems a little to approving, I try to dress down for a while so their image of how attractive I can be will subside.

jamup:<p>"I've been telling him when other men compliment me, not to make him jealous, but to help protect me from having a retaliatory affair."<p>I've done some of this too, lately. After D-day, my W tried to make me feel bad about some professional Rs that she thought were more than professional on the part of the OWs. I told her all I knew about them, even if it included incidents that I now think may have been "passes" of sorts on the part of the women. I've also made sure that any "innocent" forwarding of sexual email jokes from one of these gals gets trashed right away, or, if I reply to her with a joke of my own, OTHER PEOPLE are included in my reply, so she knows I'm not thinking of her that way. <p>"I just feel like when I tell him what these men say that I'm not hiding anything from him, and lies build upon lies, deceit builds upon deceit, so the best way to keep those things from entering my life is to tell him when someone gets a little to personal with me."<p>Good for you!!! I do this too, but I'm not a woman and so it's not very often it happens.<p>"Also when a co-worker seems a little to approving, I try to dress down for a while so their image of how attractive I can be will subside. "<p>I find this sad. My W is still pretty attractive (to me at least) and is rather well endowed, but recently told me she decided against buying a low-cut dress because she didn't want ME to be worried about her wearing it and having guys stare at her in it. I'd really LIKE TO see her in a dress like that!! (maybe I should offer to pay for it if she'll wear it only when she's with me if it will make us both feel better?).

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> she didn't want ME to be worried about her wearing it and having guys stare at her in it. <hr></blockquote><p>This has nothing to do with why I dress down for a while. The thing is that I'm getting compliments from 3 co-workers when all I've done is put on a nice shirt (dressy T-shirts), tucked them in to snug (not tight) jeans, put on makeup (not thick, just regular), and fixed my hair. Since I'm a secretary, none of this is out of the ordinary for me to do. I know there is underlying meaning in their compliments especially one who is single and who knows about my Hs A. (the others don't know). His compliments make me uncomfortable along with one of the other 2. The 3rd guy is just nice and friendly, I only work with him 1 day out of every 3 weeks, so I don't think he's contemplating a serious move. His compliments don't come with underlying meanings, and he doesn't always compliment me. Usually what happens is I dress up for myself and end up getting these compliments. Since I don't always have to dress up to boost my spirits, it works ok for me to dress down the following days. Oh, dress down is - plain T-shirt, untucked, tennis shoes, hair pulled back, same makeup. As you can see when I'm in a down mood, this type of dress doesn't do much to cheer me. That's why occasionally I spruce up. It also depends on what else I have to do after work that day.<p>I said all of that to say this, I want my WH to be aware of these OM. If I'm uncomfortable, I want him to know it. That reduces the chance of me ever getting "comfortable" with it!! And it keeps me from feeling like I have to "be nice" and return the compliments!!!

jamup:<p>I sit corrected.<p>Good points.

I just thought of something:<p>Every important concept needs it's own acronym, right??<p>So, "measured honesty" should have one, too! I propose "MFO". The "F" is silent, doncha know.