Come on, folks! MORE!!! I figure I've only got a couple of thousand more posts to go to surpass persistent's JFO thread!

2Long:<p>You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> 1) Honesty is not just the best policy, there's no reason to have any other policy if it's not the number one policy.<p>2) Radical Honesty may "hurt" for a while, but it saves great pain in the long term (and it's fair to both parties in a M), and it's conducive to CHOICE.<p>And now... (drum roll, please) we have 2LONG'S POSTULATE:<p>3) Measured Honesty, by definition, has a "hidden" corrollary, which I will now label "MEASURED DISHONESTY". By metering out "honesty" one is employing dishonesty at the same time. Lies of omission. It's that simple.<p>Having an A is just as much "measured honesty" as it is deceit, again In My Humble Opinion! I will have NONE of it.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>100% in agreement. No question, no exceptions, no nuthin'<p>And I'll tell you why; 1st, In "Measured Honesty" who decides what I "need" to know? My WW? Her IC? my mom? I mean this is ludicrous! If I am to be able to forgive, support, re0build, I need all the information. That does not mean I nn=eed to know every littl gory detail, but I need all the info. Period.<p>2nd, and perhaps more importantly, any time there is a major secret that stands between 2 people, the very nature of their honesty and openness is damaged. If my W has a secret she has to guard from me, by nature, she'll have to be guarded all the time. This is not conducive to real open and honest communication, it'll damage even the truth when she's saying it, because she had to choose her words carefully, she had to plan what she was going to say in order to make sure her secret remained secret. The mere act of having to do this makes it impossible to have honest communication.<p>If there is ONE thing I feel VERY strongly about in this whole mess; it is this point about true honesty. I have seen how so many things in my life have been distorted because my W could not just say everything that needed to be said.<p>To the point of not asking for what she needed, because asking for it might elicit questions like "why didn't you tell me this before?", or "if it's so important, why haven't we talked about this before?" How would she answer that? She could not answer it becasue if she tried, it might become evident that that need was being met some other way...and the cat, as they say, would be out of the bag.<p>Measured Honesty? BUNK!!!
Hurt me, baby!, hurt me now, hurt me hard; we'll work it out, but don't create a situation where you'll just be creating an interminable series of hurts just waiting to happen.

Hookie; (LOVE you handle!)<p>You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The TRUTH is for people who are STRONG. Weak minded people need not apply cause they have no strength to deal with the other person on a honest level. The cannot take responsibility for their actions and face the consequence. Hence you find people who like to mix it up a bit. Add the Truth to a Lie so it seems not so dishonest and they can live with it, and make themselves feel better by not causing the other person distress or hurt. <p>RESPONSIBLE for thought and deed will prove no need to lie. I believe this strongly. COnsequences happen when people make mistakes. That is human nature. Lies remove the consequences, hide the actions.... allow the person freedom from learning their mistakes are just THAT "mistakes". <p> <hr></blockquote><p>With all due respect; I disagree. The truth is for everyone, every time. Even weak people will become strong by doing it. It is only by the truth that they may one day make themselves responsible for their actions. While they lie, they need not take responsibility.<p>And don't hand me that baloney about lying "to protect your feelings" the ONLY person liars are trying to protect is themselves.<p>The act that they are lying about has already taken place; the damage that this act caused is already done; lying about it to "protect me" damages me more, not less. It damages me more because I'll be trying to cure cancer with Tylenol if I don't have the complete information.

2Long; MB needs to make mugs with this on it:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> "What the BS doesn't know is a deliberate effort on the part of the WS to rob the BS of the opportunity to make intelligent, difficult decisions that will forever affect their lives, on their own."<p> <hr></blockquote>

I agree.... the lies create a evil space between spouses..... and ruins intimacy. I don't know why any person would choose that ... lies vs intimacy ... unless they have never had a wonderful nurturing INTIMATE relationship. Cause the imtimacy thing can be overwhelmingly AWESOME.<p>My WH would always say... if I didn't tell you something and you didn't ask it isn't lying. Well I don't buy that at all. It built the foundation for a wall to be placed in our R and M that I didn't want and had no choice about. It is a lie... and camoflauging it doesn't change it. I wish sometimes people would fully understand THAT.<p>Now... that this A has happened, there will always and i do mean ALWAYS be stuff we cannot ever be fully able to talk about and be honest about. There will always be that little 1% of his life he is unable to speak about or want to with me. That is sad but true. And I on the other hand tell him everything and always have. <p>I am contemplating since this thread to ask WH for a night of 'wiping the slate clean' so to speak to see if he will divulge all those nasty little "THINGS" I never asked and he didn't want to tell. I would love if he would decide the safety of our marriage could be held if he would use honesty. <p>Done rambling...<p>J~

Ok... I didn't mean it that way.... but you seem to KWIM anyways. HE HE<p>BTW... the hokee refers to my husband's primary obsession... Hockey! LOL just clearing some mud so people get it. = )<p>But thanks!<p>J~

Baffled:<p>You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> But now I find I'm a hypocrite. In my "investigative" process, I've found that I was certainly withholding the entire truth about how I discovered her activities because I wanted to be able to use those techniques again - I didn't want to lose a valuable tool. So now I'm the "white liar". Is there a difference between her lies and mine? Are mine more moral because I'm trying to uncover hers?<p> <hr></blockquote><p>This is tough. My position is this; if she had been truthful from the start, I would never have snooped or spied. There would have been no need, I didn't have anything to hide, and I didn't expect her to either.<p>I snooped only to confront her with the evidence in the hope that she would stop lying and decide that the it was time for the truth. Not to hurt her, not to give me pleasure, not for ANY other reason.<p>Since she continued to lie, then it became my responsibility to myself and my family to protect us from my W, because her actions were putting us in jeopardy. If she was unable to see the danger she was putting all of us in, I had to take the responsibility for doing it. And I continued to snoop for that reason.<p>I stopped confronting her with it when it becasme clear that putting the truth in front of her and exposing her lies did not move her heart to accept she'd been lying and to realize the damage she was doing.<p>Does this qualify as breaking the Radical Honesty rule? Probably. But I'll tell you what; the day this is all over, I'll show her everything, even what I've posted here about my strategy, thoughts, everything. So it'll be belated Radical Honesty. Right now, I'd take that from her too!<p>[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Hot DAMN!<p>If I ever print out any thread and show it to my W on purpose, this will be IT!! Great input people! ...(but I'll take a whole lot MORE! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Yep. You know, I can actually think of some things I don't need to know about in my W's life, or that I don't need to tell her, that by not telling her I don't think I'd be "lying" to her.<p>For example: If I fart in the elevator at work, and let the poor sod standing next to me take the blame for it when the boss gets in... ...my W doesn't need to know about that li'l detail of my daily life. (on the other hand, I might just get such a kick out of it that maybe I'd go out of my way to tell her! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...more of my revolting sense of humor, I know!)

<<<But now I find I'm a hypocrite. In my "investigative" process, I've found that I was certainly withholding the entire truth about how I discovered her activities because I wanted to be able to use those techniques again - I didn't want to lose a valuable tool. So now I'm the "white liar". Is there a difference between her lies and mine? Are mine more moral because I'm trying to uncover hers?>>><p>You are not a hypocrite. You acted in self-defense. And "marriage-defense."<p>Would you have secretly snooped and spied if your spouse had not cheated?<p>I didn't think so.<p>Psycho_B***h

There is nothing wrong with sweeping things under the carpet....<p>......unless you want to figure out why everyone keeps tripping.<p>I hate lies. It is the most flagrant form of abuse and manipulation of another person. IMO, no one ever lies to protect another person. They lie to protect themselves. My H says he lied about his A to protect me from hurt. Nuh Uh...he lied to protect himself from getting divorced if that's what I chose to do with that information.<p>He went to his priest and confessed his affair 3 years into the affiar. The priest asked if he would ever do it again. Husband said "no." The priest said "Then don't tell you wife and add anymore pain to your marriage." <p>What the priest didn't recognize was the addictive nature of affairs and that without my help to hold H accountable for his time, my H fell back into his affair for another four years. It finally resulted in the birth of a child by that affair. My H has learned his lesson. Wonder if that priest is any wiser?<p>MJ

JL: Any thoughts? (I just KNOW you have some!) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I will add this, before a WS drops another bombshell on their BS, it would only be polite to say, "Honey there is something else I'd like to tell you that will probably be painful to you. Would you like to hear it now, or wait until a different time?" Sometimes I think WS manipulate their BSs by revealing hurtful things at a time that they want a return reaction of sorts from the BS. WSs, please don't be this way. Even if it's the truth, don't wait until you've got your BS down and then kick them harder. Sometimes we BSs need a little time to recover between blows. But also don't tell them there's no more and then reveal more later. If there's more, it can be postponed without lying to them about there not being anything else.

jamup:<p>I agree! <p>D-day for me was Jan 18th. But that day was pretty weird as far as D-days go. When I found the sexually explicit emails by accident, my W told me that they were playful jests between friends, and that was it. She also said that "there was a lot more and a lot worse" and I didn't want to know any more. She then deleted all the sensitive messages from our "sent mail" folder on the server. Well, the following week was pretty good for me. I started out believing what she'd told me, because I really, really wanted to. We also had great SF nearly every night that week. In retrospect, I think I was trying to bury the growing fear by doing what we did best together that didn't involve much thought. The following weekend, she actually was encoraging me to buy a $30K car that I'd been talking about (and we've had a couple of bad experiences with my impulse in that area!). For some reason, though I was at the dealer looking at a specific car that was even the right color (and she saw and liked, too), I didn't feel right, and didn't take the car home. The following wednesday, I was helping her type a cover letter or something for work, and she took a break to take a shower, so I looked at her netscape folder on her computer and WHAM!!! A LOT more, and a lot more painful. <p>Confronted her and she admitted to the EA/PA over the past 1.5 years. Then, a while later (can't remember off hand) she admitted to an EA/PA with him starting 11 years ago (I thought only the EA had happened then), on the night before our first MC session together. <p>Big blows each time. Then, after telling me she'd inform me of any contact via email after that (and did a couple of times) I intercepted another email from him to her, replying to her very personal email sent on my birthday! Just Learning literally stopped me (with the help of emergency calls to my two ICs) from ending our M right then and there, on the spot. But at least since then I've been feeling pretty proud of my Plan A efforts and how I feel about myself. <p>Now? Well, we've been getting along great, and W is at least a bit understanding of my need for no contact, but I'm not sure at this point whether I'll get it or not. When I think about how predictable WSs (and BSs) are, I reassure myself that she's probably coming out of the fog and just has a little bit farther to go. But I remain concerned about the honesty and personal privacy issues. And, yes, I am concerned that she stopped saying the ILYs a few weeks ago, even though we've been having better times together. Don't quite understand what that means, if anything.<p>Thanks for your thoughts!

2long ... excellent post!<p>I bumped my thread "magnanimous deception and lies" .... which has a similar theme.<p>I wrote that thread after following a story in the pregnancy/OC forum about a woman who has not yet decided whether or not she's going to inform her BS that he is is a BS and that their child is biologically the OM/MM's child. Her reasoning for NOT telling the truth is that her BS will suffer pain from hearing the truth ... not to mention she will then face the consequences of her actions.<p>I think your IC was seriously ill-informed on the subject of honesty ... seriously!<p>As far as radical honesty when "snooping" on the WS goes .... Well, this is what I think. If a thief broke into your home, and, he asked you for the combination of your safe containing valuables ... I think radical honesty with a thief would be ill-advised (AKA stupid) ... The WS, by their careless and reckless behavior, has placed his/her self into the position of a thief within the marriage. Until the WS is no longer a thief within the marriage ... radical honesty about such things as MB techniques, Tough Love techniques, and snooping strategies is optional in my opinion. <p>2long ... you're a "righteous dude" .... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (a line from Ferris Bueller's Day Off)<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Pep:<p>"2long ... excellent post!<p>Thank you! I really enjoyed that one (and that day) myself! I feel like I evolved like Wesley Crusher did in a single episode of Star Trek TNG. Surpassed the IC on the evolutionary ladder in one session!!<p>"I bumped my thread "magnanimous deception and lies" .... which has a similar theme."<p>I'll look it up, for sure!<p>"I wrote that thread after following a story in the pregnancy/OC forum about a woman who has not yet decided whether or not she's going to inform her BS that he is is a BS and that their child is biologically the OM/MM's child. Her reasoning for NOT telling the truth is that her BS will suffer pain from hearing the truth ... not to mention she will then face the consequences of her actions."<p>Must be CMiranda's story. Oddly, I like her, and am hoping we'll see her soon posting about her H and her recovery!<p>"I think your IC was seriously ill-informed on the subject of honesty ... seriously!"<p>I may just have to fire his sorry a$$!<p>"As far as radical honesty when "snooping" on the WS goes .... Well, this is what I think. If a thief broke into your home, and, he asked you for the combination of your safe containing valuables ... I think radical honesty with a thief would be ill-advised (AKA stupid) ... The WS, by their careless and reckless behavior, has placed his/her self into the position of a thief within the marriage. Until the WS is no longer a thief within the marriage ... radical honesty about such things as MB techniques, Tough Love techniques, and snooping strategies is optional in my opinion."<p>It really does need to be handled with some care, because the WS isn't a rational person. Heck, I KNOW my W can be very rational, and would normally just love to talk about these issues, but doing so now would only allow her guilt for what she's done to come to the surface. Nobody wants to crash and burn like that. <p>"2long ... you're a "righteous dude" .... (a line from Ferris Bueller's Day Off)"<p>I remember the line!!<p>"The Dude Abides" (from The Big Labowsky)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Pepperband:"I think your IC was seriously ill-informed on the subject of honesty ... seriously!"<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah I second that. Why are you wasting good money for such bad advise?<p>Joe

Coffee Dude Unit:<p>Yeah, I'm starting to ask myself that question AGAIN. First time was when he asked me what I thought about how Europeans have a more casual attitude about As?<p>Tweaks my Gain Knob, just thinking about it.

Just thought I'd revitalize this discussion with some synonyms I've thought up for "Measured Honesty" How about:<p>1) Measured Dishonesty.
2) Measured Bull$hit.
3) Measured Cruelty.
4) Rewriting History.
5) Radical Dishonesty.
6) Measured Lying.
7) Radical Lying.
8) Moderate torture.
9) Measured Cakewalking. (to have and eat the cake, maybe even to have and eat the icing, too!).
10) Loving Hatred.

2long,<p>How are you doing? <p>THANK YOU SO MUCH (& the other posters as well) for this thread.<p>Wow. Wow. Wow.<p>I finally have the precise words for what has most held back my recovery from FWH's affair:<p>M-E-A-S-U-R-E-D H-O-N-E-S-T-Y.<p>Aaaaaaaacccccccccccckkkkkkkkk!<p>Now that it has an official name (along with all the synonyms you provided!), I can hopefully address it with him more coherently -- rather than fumbling with it all over creation as it slips & slides through my fingers.<p>The end of September will be 5 years since D-Day for me, & I have all but GONE CRAZY due to FWH's lingering practice of Measured Honesty. It is no longer measured honesty concerning an on-going affair (thank God), but it IS all the little things FWH feels are better left unaddressed; day-to-day things which FWH would rather not discuss/share in effort to keep from experiencing turbulent waves. Avoidance.

I keep hoping & praying FWH will one day realize the danger of me learning of things (plans, feelings, whatever) "after the fact". Seems he has experienced the ensuing unpleasantness plenty enough, but still he would rather "take his chances" & at least be able to avoid those items I won't later discover.<p>I CAN'T BELIEVE "the new language" among "certain" mental health professionals is leaning more toward this type of deception. This just blows me away, but really shouldn't surprise me at all. Our first MC apparently subscribed to such idiocy, since he was very supportive of FWH being allowed to "protect his privacy" regarding anything he wasn't "comfortable" sharing with me. The more I look back on the counseling/messages we received, the angrier I get -- because I KNOW how very little of it actually helped ME.<p>Truth, Truth, & More Truth is what has helped me. I must have it. I am addicted to it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>'Tis not encouraging for me to realize, let alone say, that FWH still doesn't quite get that about me, even after this long.<p>Honesty is Imperative, & there is slim to no rationale for "degrees thereof". <p>Measured Honesty = Measured Deception, & anyone advocating measured honesty is advocating deception. Period.<p>Again, Thank You. I needed this thread so much. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>~bliss~

borb:<p>Things are going pretty well, considering. My W and I are headed to her grandparent's old home out of state for the week BY OURSELVES for the first time in a long time. Coworkers of hers were going to to, but bailed, so we're both delighted to have the time away (and work on the house together). <p>As for progress? Well, not much of late. Since an argument a few weeks ago, we've decided not to talk much about things like OM and NC, but since he's not around he's not much of a "threat" at the moment, at least until my W goes to a conference he's at, and the next one might be in August. <p>So, I'm hoping we can talk about things more this week without the distractions of daily life. She does seem to agree that measured honesty is what enabled her As, and so I've got limited agreement on radical honesty and POJA. Not much else. <p>But overall, signs of closeness and comfiness are increasing. Our next C appts are next week, after a pretty long hiatus (numerous other distractions for teh past 3 or 4 weeks). I think we're both looking forward to those.<p>Thanks for checking in!<p>I'm glad to hear that RH is working for you! (if not your H!)