I'm the BS. I definitely need to ackknowlege and apologize to H for a myriad of things I have done to hurt him and our marriage. <p>Do you feel that step 9 is compatible with MB? A good idea during plan A? It would be wholehearted, sincere, with no expectation of a certain reaction from him. <p>There IS one thing that really annoys me though. In the AA steps and traditions book it says, "We cannot, for example, unload a detailed account of extramarital adventuring upon the shoulders of our unsuspecting wife or husband." <p>The above quote seems to go completely against MB principles. Lack of radical honesty is why most of us are here to begin with!

From the basic concepts on Historical Honesty:
Historical Honesty <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I carry this Policy of Radical Honesty about your past all the way to the disclosure of all premarital and extramarital sexual relations. That's because those experiences are among your most important experiences in life, and your spouse should know anything you regard as important. Past sexual experiences also create a contrast effect in marriage, and it's inevitable that you will compare your spouse sexually with all other past sexual relationships. Knowing your sexual history can make present sexual problems much easier to understand. <p>I've had clients argue that if they tell their spouses about mistakes made decades earlier, their spouses will be crushed and never trust them again. Why not just leave that little demon alone? <p>My answer is that it's not a "little demon." If you've had an affair, it's an extremely important part of your personal history, and it says something about your predispositions. If you've had an affair in the past, your spouse shouldn't trust you -- I certainly wouldn't. <p>But what if you haven't strayed since it happened? What if you've seen a pastor regularly to hold you accountable? Why put your spouse through the agony of a revelation that could ruin your relationship forever? <p>I'd say you don't give your spouse much credit! Honesty does not drive a spouse insane -- dishonesty does. People in general, and women in particular, want to know exactly what their spouses are thinking and feeling. When you hold something back, your spouse tries to guess what it is. If he or she is right, then you must continually lie to cover your tracks. If he or she is wrong, an incorrect understanding of you and your predispositions develops. <p>Maybe you don't really want to be known for who you are? That's the saddest position of all. You'd rather keep your secret than experience one of life's greatest joys -- to be loved and accepted in spite of your weaknesses. <p>Some counselors have argued that the only reason people reveal past infidelity is because of anger. They are deliberately trying to hurt their spouses with that information. Or they might be doing it to relieve their own guilt at the expense of their spouse's feelings. <p>While it's true that the spouse usually feels hurt, and vengeance or feelings of guilt motivate some, whenever correct information is revealed, an opportunity for understanding and change is presented. That opportunity is more important than unhealthy motives or momentary unhappiness. <p>Some revelations may need to be made in the presence of a professional counselor to help control the emotional damage. Spouses sometimes have difficulty adjusting to revelations that have been kept secret for years. In many cases, they're not reacting to the revelation as much as the fact that they'd been lied to all that time. <p>Some spouses with emotional weaknesses may need personal counseling to help them adjust to the reality of their spouses' past. The saints they thought they married turn out to be not so saintly. But the most negative reactions to truth that I've witnessed have never destroyed a person or a marriage. It's dishonesty that destroys intimacy, the feeling of love, and marriages
<hr></blockquote><p>Cali

Thanks Cali, I dont have anything sexual to reveal to H, but I DO need to make amends for other things I have said and done to hurt him. <p>I am very unsure of the details of H's sexual history. That is something I simply need to ask him for, I dont expect he will offer it on his own. <p>I'm feeling very ashamed of myself for some of my past behaviors, and want him to know I'm truly sorry for very specific things.

Replaced,<p>Interesting, I had just read the same thing. <p>The Big book of AA does say that in step 9, however it further explains that every situation is unique, to seek God's guidence in what you should reveal. Many stories in the book are about people who did tell all, were completely honest and risked themselves. AA suggests that the alcoholic go to any length, that . It is a program of honesty.<p>Just out of couriosity, why do this now in plan A? In the book SSA, it would come later in radical or rigorous honesty. You know yourself & your WH better than anyone, so think through what do you hope to accomplish by doing it now? Is this part of working your program? That might be a different story. I have almost 10 years, feel free to email me or post more on this subject if you would like.<p>
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My personal opinion is that you address those shortcomings or failures by your actions in Plan A. I think just as it is for us, it is important for the WS to SEE our remorse and behavioral changes for the better that remain consistent over a period of time. I would make sure that foundation is built first, then it will mean a whole lot more when you hearken back to specific hurtful things you feel responsible for.<p>When the WS has noticed your changed behavior and attitude first, then the words, "I'm sorry" will have so much more meaning and value. The changed behavior shows that you really have contemplated it and internalized it and that it isn't just a manipulative gambit. WS do a lot of projecting, so they tend to color what you do with their own motivations.<p>Of course, within the 12-steps context, since it is step 9, that presumes the foundation of steps 1-8, so that would be consistent with what I was trying to say above.<p>[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Replaced,<p>The 9th step says to make amends "except when to do so would injure them or others."<p>We know from our own experiences that information can cause pain, but is it truly "injury"? If it is then I guess you have to decide which injury is greater: the injury the information inflicts, or the injury caused by your spouse believing you are someone you are not? <p>MB would insist that not telling is always more injurious than telling. Many scenarios have been discussed on the forum about how the spouse would be "better off" if they didn't know. I've always been convinced by these discussions that the only person who might be better off is the person doing the telling. Mostly because they avoid suffering consequences due to their past actions. The spouse also misses out on the opportunity to show their true love by offering forgiveness.<p>The only type of situations that might lead me to think there were exceptions are the following.<p>Suppose by "injury" al-anon is referring to physical harm (or something equivalent) that may occur due to the response of the person to the information. Like, chasing down and beating up an OP, or hurting themselves, reverting back to drinking, etc...<p>In that case the information is clearly very important to the spouse and it is even more imperative that they be told. The circumstances of the telling probably have to be managed carefully in this kind of situation. <p>You could continue this further and say that the person might be so out of control that there would be no "managing" them. I guess now I'm stuck and can only think that we have someone that is only one "discovery" away from being a menace to society. They need serious treatment, not just protection from some "secrets". Maybe I'm way off base here, because isn't that what alcoholism is?<p>Ya know, I think it's sort of interesting that al-anon got the principle right, but then made a mistake in their application. Of course, from the MB point of view, lots of people mess up on the honesty issue.<p>I would love to see BrambleRose's take on this issue. <p>Jeffers<p>[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: jeffers ]</p>

To all,<p>I am slowly digesting your replies, as I tend to be impulsive with how I manage things.<p>I personally believe that disclosure of serious wrongs is essential UNLESS there is a significant chance that it could cause a DANGEROUS situation to someone. I'm sure there ARE situations where that is the case. Especially if dealing with unstable people, volatile situations, etc.<p>In marriage I have learned the hard way that timing, approach ,careful thought, and being sure of ones motivation etc. are very important.<p>I simply feel the need to let H know that I admit my mistakes, that I am not lording his A's over him(and not excusing them), that I am just as human as he is, I simply have different behaviors that need to be admitted and changed. When I apoligize, I will be VERY specific pointing out situations, attitudes, stuff I said, etc. <p>I just couldnt believe that statement about affairs in AA, hadnt remembered that it was in there. I'm sure different people will interpret it different ways, maybe decide what THEY want it to mean.<p>Luckily for H and myself, the things I need to make amends for are not things that could hurt or injure him or anyone else. They are average, everyday issues and behaviors. I do know it could open back up some feelings of resentment he has for me, but he has been bringing that stuff up anyway. I need to start listening more and take responsibility for ME. I just thought making amends could be a part of plan A.<p>Also need to reread SAA, not go off half-cocked and overwhelm him. I need to see again what it says about the timing of this sort of thing. I probably have misinterpreted a lot of stuff in that book.
<p>Twelve Step Programs are great but that statement about infidelity just got under my skin. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks, Replaced

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Replaced:
<strong>Twelve Step Programs are great but that statement about infidelity just got under my skin. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I lost all respect for Promise Keepers when I discovered something in their book about keeping past infidelities a secret. The LEAST you can do when you've broken a promise is to let the other person know that you're NOT a promise keeper!

Hi Replaced ~<p>Yes Step 9 is very compatible with MB, along with the other 11 steps.<p>My first question to you is - have you worked steps 1-8 with a sponsor?<p>Because if you haven't, then you've jumped the gun by going to Step 9.<p>The underlying princple behind Step 9 is to "do no harm". How you carry that out is up to you. No one working a healthy 12 step program is going to tell you that you shouldn't practice radical honesty in your relationship with your spouse. There very well may be times that one shouldn't tell. For example, what if a WS confessed an affair to a BS, knowing the BS has violent tendencies and the BS not only physically harms the WS, but harms or kills the OP?<p>There ARE times when telling is NOT the best policy. The 12 steps are not rules. How you choose to apply them to your life is up to you.<p>I also believe that the example of not confessing adultery may meant for those who aren't interested in repairing a marriage, but simply dumping their own guilt on an innocent spouse. The 9th step CAN be abused that way. <p>Every situation is different. The 12 steps are not MUSTS and MUST NOTS. They are simply steps to serenity, and how you choose to apply them is up to you. There is no one right answer even in a 12 step program.<p>As for your situation: If you haven't done the other 8 prior steps carefully with a sponsor, I don't think step 9 is what you should be practing in plan A. You see, there are 2 other people you should be making amends to first: yourself, and God.<p>If you haven't worked the prior steps, and you haven't made far enough spiritually to understand this and to do this, then you aren't ready to make amends to your H either.<p>The problem with an unprepared Step 9, with someone who only partially understands it, is that apologies and amends are made for things that shouldn't be owned, and other things are not. <p>The first time I jumped the gun and apologized to my H (thinking I was doing a Step 9) - I simply justified and enabled his behavior. I willingly took responsibilty for things that weren't mine. I didn't show myself respect, I made myself into a doormat. He walked away thinking that I had simply confirmed what he knew all along, that it was all my fault that he was miserable.<p>Looking back now, I can see that I actually harmed both of us with that "apology and amends".<p>later, I was able to do a real step 9 with him, after alot of work on myself. When I did that step 9, it was like night and day. I understood truely what I had really done wrong in my marriage and what I had really done to him, and I was able to not only apologize, but then my Plan A was my amends, it was my acting out my resolve to treat him differently.<p>So my thought is that you should tread very carefully here. Before you try to apologize and make amends, you need to have many long talks with a 12 step sponsor.

BrambleRose,<p>Thanks for clarifying. I did steps 1-8 years ago, not thoroughly enough, too quickly. I have no sponsor to work with. D is in AA, I was looking in steps/traditions book, that is what got me thinking about amends.<p>I HAVE already taken WAY too much responsibility for things that arent mine, I have done this in a very misplaced effort to take a load off him. Why I feel the need to do this I dont know yet. Carrying his load AND mine is way too much, and completely unnecessary. This behavior is exhausting me, and yes he seems to resent me for things I have nothing to do with. <p>Dont worry, I wont be doing anything rash. I need to take care of myself really bad. Im not doing very well. <p>I know each situation is different when it comes to disclosing infidelity if there is possibility of violence, etc. the wording just rubbed me the wrong way.<p>Thankyou, Replaced [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Replaced,<p>Well then, alot of hard work is in order before you get to that 9th step.<p>Also remember that the steps are not written JUST for marriage, but are meant to cover every type of situation.<p>The MB priniciples are specifically MARRIAGE builders. While some of the concepts apply to other types of relationships, not all of them do. Radical honesty is one of those. Radical honesty is something to be practiced with a spouse, and not anyone else.<p>So Step 9 is covering alot more than a marital relationship. It's application is far broader than a single situation.<p>If your daughter is in AA, then you qualify for Al-Anon. Get thee to a meeting and find a sponsor. Co-dependents make a mess out of Plan A without alot of help and guidance. You'll need it - and actually you'll find that if you try to work the steps and Plan A, your Plan A will be far more effective.<p>Take care of yourself FIRST. Your first priority should be helping yourself through meetings and sponsorship while working a formal 12 step program.