JL - I guess my initial post did sound a bit hopeless. Well, today's a different day. I'm glad I didn't go with her to Vegas, because I've needed this time alone to pray and absorb all this new information. Rest assured I am NOT giving up. <p>I know tomorrow is not going to be easy for her. Or me, for that matter. Since D-day #1, I have not threatened, not raised my voice (too much), not put demands on her (except for no contact, which worked for six weeks). I plan on being calm (I'm pretty good at that) and allow her another opportunity to come clean. I know the lies have to be eating her up, too, and maybe by finally purging everything from her brain she can start to see through the fog.<p>She's a smart woman. I think she will come to understand that the lies will have to stop before God can dispense His healing grace on all involved.<p>Tomorrow is bound to be an interesting day, to say the least! I am going to stay positive and rely on God's strength to get me through. Who knows - maybe He'll work a miracle tomorrow.

SiSF,<p>You said something that set off bells in my head. You said you will give her a chance to come clean.<p>When you said this: I envision you asking, "Do you have something else to tell me?"<p>Man I hate that. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You see if you know what has been said tell her, don't play the I'll give you a chance to come clean thing. I find it very annoying and so would she is my guess. It will raise up her defenses and her protectiveness.<p>Tell her what you KNOW. And then let her do the talking, don't ask much. Just tell her what you know and ask what she feels the situation really is. And let her talk. When she stops, don't say anything, let your silence do the talking. You will very likely get more information that way. And you haven't attacked her and put her on the defensive.<p>Glad to hear you have calmed down, but don't be afraid to let her see your emotions. I think sometimes people can appear more calm than they should. The trick is not to lose control of your emotions to the extent that you miss important information from her: either verbal or by visual clues. <p>Must go, I do hope things work out as you hope tomorrow. Hang in there SiSF.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Shattered there is another individual here that has gone thru a very, very similar experience like yours and I beleive that his input can help give you some strength in this most difficult time. I posted a thread and he responded saying that as soon as he can he will be posting his comments to you. So hang in there.<p>Joe

TMCM - thanks for looking out for me.<p>JL - Guess I should clarify. In the letter, I detailed all the things I heard on the tape that concerned me. When I said, "allow her another opportunity to come clean", I meant to see if there was anything else she needed to tell me that I didn't already know (any other OMs, etc). I'm not into playing head games - I know they usually backfire. <p>And hopefully she'll feel safe to open up more, as I actually was holding her in my arms when she first told me of her affair. I stayed quiet and just held her while she talked. Really hard to do, but she thanked me later for handling it that way. Just wish she had divulged everything then so we wouldn't have to have round 2. Oh, well...<p>Thanks as always for your concern and good advice.

SiSF,<p>Good, I am glad I misunderstood. You are a good man SiSF. I think your strength will help your W and you to get this marriage back on track.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Thanks for the validation, JL. I know I'm a better man than OM is. He actually slipped up on the tape. When my WW asked if he had told his wife about A, he said "no" because his marriage "wouldn't survive another one of these." My wife picked up on that and asked if that's what their A is, just another "one of these"? He backpedaled pretty fast and she let it go, but I know the seed is planted in her mind. <p>By the way, OM's wife was an OW in his previous marriage. What a guy! Wonder if he's ever NOT had someone on the side. Anyway, I may probe a bit (gently, of course)to see if there's a way to exploit what he said and get WW to seriously consider his pattern of infidelity. I'll let you know how it goes.

shattered in SF,<p>Hmmm, just another point of view ... You know this A will not last ... would your plan actions interfere to let A dies naturally ?. Would it make it harder for you to snoop in the future ?. You could win this battle but you might have a hard time to win this war. I know you are hurting soo much and you still standing there and waiting 'till she come home. I am 100% in contact w/ OMw helping her to plan A her H, it is eating me alive hearing my WW is OW from hell, she has learned 4 gifts of love from Steve and use it for OM !!!!. OM from love you to unsure to not in love with you to doing mean thing to his wife of 20 years within few months. I never these info. to interfere w/ her A ..., my WW tries to figure out if I talk to OMw !. I could win my war if my WW didn't filed. I am running out of time ... information from OMw, OM is very skillfull and it will take him about 3 years before he showed his true color. I was willing to wait but she will shut that door by Dv.<p>I know it is hard, I took paxil for a while. It helps me out tremendously, I eliminated my panic attack and I could avoid LB'ed. Have comforts in other and take refuge under HIS wing ... you know their A will not last and will never work. Let HIM work it out and let time reveal OM's lies. File this information in your journal ... let OM LB'ed ... let WW repents on her own.<p>Just MHO -RH-

SiSF:<p>Got a few moments, finally!!<p>You've gotten some great advice from JL and others so far. JL helped me stop myself from ending my M after D-day #2. I was within minutes of sending the fateful email to BOTH of them. I notice that your latest D-day is the same as mine!<p>In my case, it was revelation to me after the fact that my WW had contacted OM and told him I know about their A. This from my W, so I don't know what exactly was said (through email, presumably, at least that's what she said it was). He works for her, but in another state, and his report was due to her last week, but never got dropped off. It's supposed to be mailed this week, or that's the latest story.<p>Giving my W the benefit of the doubt here: JL has had to jerk my reigns several times in the past month or two, and rightly so, because I do have a tendency to overanalyze my situation. My W appears truly torn between her love for me and our family and her desire to remain "friends" with OM. She has said she loves him, by saying things like "I care too much about him for you to expect me to forget him" kinds of comments, but I noted with great interest a couple months ago that she said he's NEVER said he loves her ([censored]!). <p>My W is seeing her IC today, and we see our MC tomorrow. I think it's time for us to shoot the damned elephant tomorrow, and I'm planning to lay it out on the table then. I have talked honestly about how I feel and what I "expect" my W to do, and SOON, because she has seemed to have been hoping that I would just eventually get over the A and she could then go back to her "measured honesty" nonsense and continue to meet with OM at conferences and work together the way they have been. She believes, apparently, that she can keep from ever getting physical with him again, and that she won't ever go places alone with him, but she expects me to allow them to work together and go to lunches and dinners with other people. I'm not going to. Too much has happened and our family has been too adversely affected. <p>Your situation sounds somewhat similar, although her OM is much more available than my W's OM (though he still has family in the area, and so has an excuse for coming to So. Cal. periodically). I think JL's advice here is very good. Ultimately, though, you have to decide what you will put up with and for how long. You HAVE TO put up with your W's timeframe for ending her A to some extent. You can't make progress by being demanding of her. At best, you'd end the A by being threatening, and she'd resent having to "settle" for you and your M. If it's her choice, she'll feel better in the long run for being allowed to make it. She probably needs to be jolted a bit, like by telling her about the tape as JL suggests. In my case, I jolted my W awake last week by reiterating to her, using radical honesty, that I am NOT demanding she do anything about OM, but that I CAN and DO PROMISE her that I WILL NOT put up with OM in any part of our future together, whatsoever. No EA, no PA, no friendship, no "colleague." NOTHING. I do not care if that sounds harsh or like I'm punishing OM (like, what's with that? I don't hate him, but I DON'T like him either, and I have NO qualms about punishing him for what HE did to our M). I don't care what she thinks about that choice of MINE, because I *DO* care about our family's future and I am CONCERNED that I will get so tired of waiting for her to make a decision that I will LB bigtime and just want out of our M at some point. <p>In short, I'm telling her that I won't enable the cakewalking any longer. She knows enough now about how this rebuilding works to know that, until the elephant is dead and buried, we can't START on working on our M. She also knows, or is starting to realize, just how much my performance at work has been affected by having to deal with this. I can't do this and stay employed and compete in the workplace indefinitely. DV won't be "fun" but if I have to "get over" my M at some point, I'd rather not have to wait too long to start THAT withdrawl (and the longer it takes to kill the elephant, the harder it's going to be to not get angry with her). <p>In the end, I think your W does need to know "where you're at" right now, so she can get started thinking about her own alternatives and stop eating her cake and having it too. <p>And keep posting to this forum. Particularly listen to what JL says. Me too, but be careful of what I say when I'm depressed, as I use my posts for journaling as well as getting ideas from others here. My W and I are very loving to each other right now, and it does seem she's trying her best to do the right thing about OM, but it's clearly not an easy thing for her to do (her A happened 2 times over the past 11 years, lasting a year or 2 each time, with a "friendship" in between) so her withdrawl isn't easy for her.<p>warmest regards,

Hey, 2long - thanks for taking the time to help me. Our situations are pretty similar. The only difference in my wife's 12 year affair is that it has been ongoing the whole time. It's like she had another husband for half our married life! <p>When she first disclosed her A, she said they were good friends at work (I knew that), yada yada, became physical about 2 1/2 yrs. ago, she felt like she was mostly meeting his need for moral support, physical part wasn't that big a deal to her, she was relieved it was over, no withdrawal feelings at all, etc. Based on that information, we immediately began work on restoration and recovery, and we were actually doing great. That is, until she finally gave in and called him while I went to pick up my son from college. <p>If you could listen to the tape from Thursday, you would hear two people pledging their eternal, undying love for each other, pining for each other after being apart for 3 months, saying (at least from OM) that this R will never be over and "I know we'll be together again. I promise you that." And a whole lot more. Just makes you wanna puke - which I did, twice.<p>The lies are catching up with them, and I know they're both still terrified of the prospect of their A becoming public knowledge. They're dancing on the razor's edge, trying to cover up their lies with more lies, which eventually will catch up to them. WW knows what her girlfriends would say and how they'd chastise her if they found out what she's been doing, especially since they all know OM, too. My wife has said on several occasions in the past that I was used by her friends as an example to follow when they told their husbands they didn't like the way they were being treated. They'd let her have it, and she knows it.<p>Well, my wife returns in about 5 or 6 hours. I know we're both in for a rough night. I'm pretty confident I can keep my composure. Not sure what her reaction/response will be.<p>redhat - thanks for the alternate suggestion. I know by telling her about the tape that the snooping becomes more difficult. I think that after this episode, I'm really not all that interested in snooping any more. I found out what I suspected and needed to know, and now it's up to her to decide if she wants to try to work it out with me or not. If they really want to talk/see each other, there's not much I can do about it except let my wife know that I will not be part of a 3-way R and hope that she will see contact as detrimental to any recovery efforts. <p>I cling to the hope that she will realize that life with me is way better than with OM. I think in her gut she already knows that. I know God will sustain me in any event.

SiSF:<p>Good luck to you when your W gets home!<p>Got to run again. I'll check back when I can.<p>In the end, this decision, whether to reveal your snooping or not, is up to you to decide. In my case, it ALWAYS resulted in a LONG angry outburst. After the last one (early march email), she started using her work account, so I don't know anything she doesn't tell me about contact. But in our case, she's starting to really recognize that radical honesty is my only policy, and I think it's time to bring the elephant up in front of the firing squad tomorrow at our MC session. If we dont' shoot it then, at least we can indict it. My W will know, in no uncertain terms, what I need for ME to stay in this M. <p>I just hope that Kaiser's MC doesn't use some strange "plan" that allows contact to continue if they promise not to poke again, or some such nonsense. I think she's better than that, though, and hopefully won't be too gentle with my W from now on (she did say we need to get onto the same page, last time we saw her).<p>Take care,

Oh, SiSF. I just stopped to say a prayer for you. I wish I was full of wisdom, but honestly this just brings back too many painful memories. I--and many others here--know all too well how you feel. I guess my only advice would be not to make any rash decisions right now, while your emotions are in an uproar. And antidepressants might help you get past this latest hurdle. I was crying constantly after dday #2, until I went on Prozac. Walking also helped alot.<p>You are getting sound advice from the others. I just finished a book that might also be helpful to you, When Godly People Do Ungodly Things, by Beth Moore. It has helped me a lot in understanding the battle that must have been going on in my FWH. <p>We are anxiously waiting for your update. Until then, you--as well as your wife and kids--are in my prayers.

shattered in SF,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I cling to the hope that she will realize that life with me is way better than with OM. I think in her gut she already knows that. I know God will sustain me in any event.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, she will in time but do you need to interfere w/ A ? It might make recovery longer and harder.<p>God Bless you and pray hard and even fasting !. Let HIM guide you and let the Holly Spirit prepare you and use you according HIS will. I will check back later. -RH-

Thanks, P. I know you understand how difficult it is when the OP is a member of your church family. Brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to look out for each other, but, unfortunately, we're all human and the evil one has a field day tempting believers.<p>Appreciate so much your prayers. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

RH - I guess I don't look at it as "interfering" with the A. It's letting her know that I am aware that the A is much more than she originally led me to believe, that I won't be a doormat or be #2 in her life, and that true love is right here at home where it always was. <p>She is very smart and knows what she loses if we can't reconcile. I think she needs this gentle shock to let her see how the compounding of lies is making things so much worse, and that she is letting her soul slip away in the process. She struggles mightily with the spiritual aspects of this situation, and I pray that she will eventually come to know just how damaging this has been, to me and to herself.

Hi SISF,<p>Been watching your thread and see that you are getting good support here. I don't have much to add but just wanted to let you know that I think despite the odds you are handling yourself quite well. <p>It is very hard. You have shown that you maintained composure during some very trying times and this is commendable. Most don't know how difficult it is to be told about and A while holding onto one's mate. It is such a conflict of interest. <p>Just a side point. I did let my H know about some of my activities. He guessed about the others but I did not confirm. His wondering kept his mind back on his family and eventually he came home. By home I mean not just physically but emotionally as well. He still has a ways to go but at least it is in the right direction. That is all we can do sometimes, just show them the way. But in a respectful manner. They need to know (the WS) that our families are not a 2nd choice but 1st. Keep your values up there. <p>JL and others have posted well. You are in the same area as myself and a few others. Sure wish we could make this fog go away. <p>Take Care,
L.

Thanks, Orchid - I admit I'm getting a little anxious as the time draws closer for her to come home. It helps a lot to feel so encouraged by others who have experienced the same things I have, even worse.<p>The ability some people have demonstrated to overcome horrible situations is truly inspirational and gives me so much hope. I pray that someday I'll be able to return the favor as a happy, healthy survivor.

Shattered,<p>Does your pastor know about the relationship between your wife and the other man? Maybe it's time to approach your wife with your pastor. Matthew 18:15, 16 speaks about talking to the person who offended you alone at first and then with one or two others. You probably really need the support of your pastor at this time. Also, it may help to lift the fog if he is there.<p>I really tried to bear this pain alone, but I needed someone else desperately. <p>I have also been reading the book recommended by Persevering. As a Christian, I have really had a hard time understanding my husband's deception and betrayal. This book by Beth Moore helped me understand how hard satan tries to destroy our testimony and especially the testimony of church leaders.<p>You are in my prayers tonight.

FSB - thank you for your prayers. Only problem with approaching our pastor is that he was WW's + OM's boss and there was some conflict there. Have to take this complicated mess one step at a time.

Well, I'm exhausted. WW came home around 4:30. Son was there so I couldn't talk right away. She wanted to go for a walk with me, but I said I needed to have her read something first. So I gave her the letter and left her alone. She came out about 5 minutes later, told her we should walk now, and we went off to discuss everything for a few hours.<p>I'm too tired to get into all the details right now. Let's just say that, after praying my behind off all day, God came through big time! He is so good. Hope appeared on the horizon again, my wife emphatically said that her future is with me, and she wants me to help her figure out the best way to let OM know that the fantasy is over and he needs to start taking care of his own wife again.<p>Praise God from whom all blessings flow, and many thanks for all the prayers and support from my wonderful MB friends. The road ahead is bound to have more potholes and speedbumps, but at least now I think we have the car turned in the right direction.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Praise God from whom all blessings flow,...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I am so glad you are hopeful and encouraged and that things went well yesterday. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>The road ahead is bound to have more potholes and speedbumps,...</strong><hr></blockquote> <p>Hang on tight! It's quite a ride, with more twists and turns and detours than you can imagine. <p>Hang in there, SiSF. You're doing great!