As some may know, I recently decided to “confront the elephant” a bit. I’ve let it wander around freely for about 8 months now. I used to confront it a bit in the early days, but over the last 3 months or so, I’ve just let it be. Well, I’ve learned that for a true fence sitter, that’s just peachy – and enabling. So I decided that it’s time to shift my focus… to start moving towards something – start changing our dance.<p>I crafted a letter for WW last week. I decided that I’d continue to avoid the R talk, but… if she were to start into anything – then I would change my tactic from trying to diffuse the tension, to being willing to stand up for myself…. to shift from the constant apologies for past wrongs, to more loving toughness. And I decided that if things got deep enough, I’d give her my note, and we’d talk about it.<p>I didn’t have to wait long for the opportunity. On Saturday morning, she said something (can’t recall exactly) that led in perfectly. I was calm, cool and collected – and met the issues head on. Some excerpts from my letter follow:<p>“I am willing to talk. But I’m not willing to accept anything that’s remotely hostile anymore - from either of us. If we can’t talk honestly and openly, where we value the other’s views as true friends would, then we don’t have the marriage that I want - period.”<p>“I certainly am so very deeply sorry for having caused you such great pain, over the many years. I had no right to hurt you over and over again and make your life miserable in any way. But I also cannot refuse to move forward either. I need to accept myself – flawed as the human being I am – and learn and grow. If I’ve hurt you to the point where forgiveness is not possible, then we must part ways. What other choices do we have?”<p>“So what am I trying to say? Simply put, I see only three paths ahead of us right now. One is for you to leave. One is for me to leave. The last is for us to work on things together, as a team, as partners, as equals, as the friends and lovers we could be. There are no other options I will participate in any longer. If you want to pursue a different one, I will make my decisions accordingly.”<p>“And I don’t expect or demand forgiveness or repentance from you. But I do have demands and expectations of myself. I understand more clearly than ever what I need from my life partner. These things include: being well adjusted, understanding life from a healthy perspective, willingness to learn… and respect – both self-respect and respect for me.”<p>Quite blunt, but I’m tired of compromising my integrity. And with no signs of her even being willing to TRY… it can’t continue.<p>And what was her reaction? Well, she was upset, cried a lot – enough to give her a headache. But then she drew closer to me, wanted to be more affectionate, and started talking about “us” in positive ways. But I was looking for some key statements… that was my entire intent: to really figure out where we are. And what I got was something like: “A part of me really wants to hold you, make love to you. But another part of me makes me pull away” and “I’m paralyzed – I can’t make a decision.” Interestingly, she admitted that she’s behaving like a 4-year-old, and sometimes needs to be treated that way!<p>So I think I got my answer: things haven’t changed much. Even if all isn’t well in A-land, she’s still “stuck” – captivated by the illusion. That’s all I need to know at this point. I needed to solidify my basis for leaving before going there.<p>After our little safari, things were fairly calm for a while. Being at this point really does force a “settling down” – she knows what I will and won’t tolerate.<p>Later in the day, a difficult situation developed. I’d put out a digital recorder in an inconspicuous place quite a while ago – and forgot about it! Of course, coincidence would have her stumble across it. When I’d placed it, I’d been focusing heavily on her – and when I started focusing back on me, priorities shifted. Let it stand as a lesson for others! (Lesson being you can only control yourself – extra knowledge won’t buy a lot, unless you’re prepared for the possible consequences!!) Ironically, I’d never listened to it – and I’m glad I hadn’t. In a way, too, I’m glad she found it – rather than my finding or remembering it later.<p>What was her reaction to that discovery? Once again, showing that we’re not exactly “typical” – she cried a bit and admitted, “I [WW] deserved it.” I explained clearly and calmly why I’d done it, that I was sorry, that I felt it reflected my own character flaws, and that she had a right to be angry. Again, surprisingly, it didn’t cause a major blow-out. Mind you, the tone did change a bit – from pretty up-beat to fairly quiet. I realize it must seem improbable that I'd forget about such a thing... I guess it started with complacency - thought about it less and less. It was stupid of me.<p>Sunday reflected that same quietness in many ways. I think we were both “processing.” I also think her “4-year-old” was starting to come back and resist the “controls” that were seemingly starting to settle in from the day before. We did end up going out for a hike, got some fresh air, and had a drink after at a pub. I let her initiate much of the conversation – it seemed like the thing to do.<p>At this stage, I realize I’ve possibly hurt my efforts by everything that happened the past weekend – or maybe I helped it – I don’t know. I can see many cringes out there… but I find it interesting that the overall tone had potential. She actually thanked me for my letter – said it helped her understand me and my position better. In one of her dark moments of sobbing, she admitted that I’ve bared my soul to her, and she saw it as “beautiful” – and that she sees hers as black and ugly… but she’s not prepared to do something about it.<p>So this any many other things only confirm for me what I already know… that my efforts have given her many reasons to question herself. But I also know that she isn’t going to be happy so long as the illusion of the A possesses her, and it will do so as long as she doesn’t have to “live it.” As such, it is definitely time for Plan B – for me, it’s becoming essential. My weariness is taking its toll. WW also admitted that she’s horrified at what this has done to my love for her – so I think she’ll understand why I need to leave. (Yes, she KNOWS I loved her before this happened - what she sees is the potential loss, despite my love for her, because I'm doing everything I can to continue showing it.)<p>I’m strangely calm and determined right now. I’ll continue to keep updating as things develop.<p>[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]<p>[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

J.R.<p>WOW! Total heaviosity!<p>I'm curious. Can you point me to your thread about your conversation with OM? I can't remember where it is. I am cogitating about sending my W's OM an email, now that I KNOW he knows I know (W told me on Friday that she told him on Wednesday). But, since I don't know what was also said in the emails (like did they promise to care about each other forever, that kind of crap?), I think I may need to send one of my own to clarify things a bit.<p>I remember your tactic was to start with something like asking OM "What are your intentions?" and "My W's happiness is foremost on my mind". I like the idea of derailing any expectations that I might "attack" him verbally, which he might just be able to show my W and say "see what a jerk your H is?"<p>In the end, I'm not sure I would ever say anything to him, and my W has an IC session today and we have our MC tomorrow, and a lot could evolve after those two meetings. But, just in case, I want to have my options carefully thought out and rethought before I do anything. I don't want to be hasty at all, just careful (but firm).<p>regards,

JR!<p>My personality leans toward bluntness. I don't like to sugar coat the truth. I have learned (over the years, after suffering many blunders via my bluntness) that tactfull bluntness is a pretty effective communication style for me. I think that's where you are now too. <p>Your letter is an example of tactfull bluntness. You kept the focus upon yourself, where it should be. You did not point fingers of blame, and you did not grovel. You wrote an eloquent personal mission statement of how you have decided to live your life. You remained respectful of your WW and of yourself. This is not romantic drivel .... and, depending on what your WW's current top ENs are ... this approach will either draw her to you, or she will wander down the yellow brick road looking for the wizard.<p>I really like your letter ... it is written FOR YOURSELF ... and is not intended to cajole, manipulate or threaten your WW. It demonstrates your integrity, as well as your chutzpah! <p>All this crying business going on ... detatch yourself from ownership of her reactions. Her emotional currents are not within the bounds of anything you are responsible for. You may support her in any way you choose that does not compromise your integrity.<p>You have grown tremendously ... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Personally, I think it sounds like the talk went better than I would have guessed! She's afraid of her feelings...and she's afraid to make a decision. Been there done that. When I finally full out panicked at the realization that my marriage was about to be completely gone and there most likely wouldn't be any "do-overs", I took a chance. I opened up to my H (very scary), he asked me to come over (scary scary), he asked me to be intimate as a sign that I meant what I'd said (EXCEPTIONALY SCARY)...and the days after, as happy as I was to have another chance, I was petrified with fear. What if I was making the wrong choice, what if I would just hurt my H more, what if I would just hurt my son more. But the panick gave way to relief...relief to finally MAKE A DECISION. I'd learned a lot by then, though...and I had rational thoughts to help quiet down the panicky voices. <p>Your wife needs antidepressants, and to do some serious soul searching. Hopefully this will all sink in and she'll start thinking in that direction....SOON!<p>Take care!

2long,<p>Hmm... Not sure where that pesky post went... I can summarize how it went, though:<p>- I tracked down his address by reverse phone lookup (I felt it important to do this face-to-face - less opportunity for him to avoid me - he needed to SEE me, and I needed to SEE him. A very large part of this was about that.)<p>- I drove there directly from my work - I knew WW would be at home. That's important: if she were there, I'd have to abort the mission!<p>- I knocked on the door, one of his roommates answered, he came out, sheepishly. I made sure he knew who I was!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>- I started off asking him what his plans were - did he / they actually have any? or was it all "day-to-day"? He replied along the lines that he wanted to marry WW, but couldn't until she was divorced! No s*** Sherlock! This led into my learning a bit - that WW had led him on a bit - to believe she had every intention of Dv'ing me.<p>- I then made the point that I was doing NOTHING to hold WW here (with me).<p>- He noted that he'd "fallen in love" very quickly. That statement tended to confirm in my mind that what he'd fallen in was INFATUATION.<p>- I made the point that I loved WW, that I was concerned for her mental health. I made sure he knew she was going for counseling, and that we attended TOGETHER also. I expressed concerns that she has issues that need to be addressed regardless of who she's with. (I.e., she has baggage, even if she doesn't show it!)<p>- I explained that this was dropped on me out of the blue, so that's why I didn't just run off. He said something (can't recall) and I replied along the lines that "I don't abandon my family."<p>- One of the key moments was when I suggested casually that he look at WW's ACTIONS, not words. He started to say he was trying to, and I redirected him to realize what I was saying: she hasn't made any moves to leave me - WHAT DOES THAT SAY? That stopped him quickly.<p>- He admitted that he wanted WW to decide QUICKLY. I didn't say much to that, other than that I thought WW needed to make some decisions. I saw it as yet more LB fodder between him and WW.<p>- I asked him if he had any questions of me. He asked if WW wanted to come back in a few months, whether I'd take her back. I became vague and said, "There are no gaurantees in life, are there?"<p>- I can't remember too many other specifics. It was the overall experience that was intended to provide impact - REALITY! It was ackward - I tried to maintain eye contact and did well at first - got progressively worse for both of us. I did stare into his eyes enough for both of us to feel very - bad? He even expressed remorse to me...<p>- We parted ways with me kind of letting him off - patted him on the arm and said, "well, thanks for your time."<p>- Later, I learned from WW that OM didn't sleep a wink that night... I didn't do so well either, but was very satisfied with my decision to do it. It was very planned in my mind, and I give myself a A- for execution.<p>If you have an IC / MC, I'd recommend talking to them first. I think the KEY elements that made my doing this "reasonable" were:<p>- WW's "dual life" was very obvious - we live 50 miles from where each of us works, so she could spend time there, completely isolated.<p>- I'd been doing Plan A for a while, no LB'ing, and building a good record - this was an EXPENSIVE LB$ withdrawal for WW - she really did freak out. What was possibly more important than the confrontation was how I handled her AFTER - patient, no LB'ing!<p>- OM is young and naive. He had been given little (accurate) information about me or our marriage. The fact that we were in counseling together was a good example - something I'm certain WW would not have told him.<p>- I was no threat to go off the deep end and harm him!<p>Hope this helps... It's not for everyone, for sure, but it helped ME at very least, not sure about my M yet.<p>PepperB,<p>That's a good way to look at it... a personal mission statement. My mission is to care for WW, and to do that effectively, I need her to care for herself, too - enough care to stop this A. Until then, we're not going forward or backward, as I've come to see. My Plan A efforts have born fruit for ME, as intended. Beyond that... there's nothing out there but the truth, right? That's what my new attitude is about... the truth, honesty and bluntness. We're dealing with lives here, after all!<p>H4F,<p>I'd love to think she's as far along as you were just before your "awakening" - but I have my doubts. But that's okay... This isn't over yet, just entering a new phase. She admits she's behaving like a 4-year-old - so maybe that just confirms that my philosophy does need to be more shifted to the "loving toughness" end of the spectrum!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As for the anti-deps - would love for her to do that... I got her to promise to look into it if it "got worse" for her. But she's pretty stubborn, and likely thinks she can "handle it". Of course, if I do go, I think it WILL push her over the edge. She admits that she's emotionally dependent on me - not exactly a "good thing!"

JR, Great letter! I'm thinking of plagiarizing part of it. I feel in the same place with my H. He doesn't want me to divorce him, but doesn't want to commit to rebuilding relationship, and lies about continuing to see OW. We don't live together and I do much better when I don't see him or talk to him. I lose my resolve to have no contact when he does or says something nice, but then I pay and pay and pay. <p>I liked what pepperband called it: a mission statement. I think it's important for us to know what our boundaries are and not to be afraid to let others know too.

Oh you are very right that she is not where I was. BUT...I had been on my own for a year! She's further along than I was when I moved out...and H and I "enabled" ourselves to move slowly apart so that it didn't hurt as much. Bad idea! A new phase for sure...a HUGE fence shaker.

Hey JR---<p>On the anti-deps...after nearly a year and half of putting herself through hell my WW is on the verge of taking them.<p>She was totally opposed to them... She would say: "People shouldn't need drugs...should be able to deal with life...I caused my own problems I should be able to fix 'em...yadayadayada..."<p>Finally she has hit bottom and her counselor called her gyn and both have suggested she take them so she is going to try.<p>She also talked to another gal in her office who she found out was on anti-deps and this other gal recommended them saying they saved her life. <p>I don't know anyone who was more opposed to taking them than my WS.<p>Perhaps you W could talk to someone who is taking them to get a full picture.<p>I don't know if the anti-deps will help our relationship or if they will help my W, but it has to be worth a shot, right?<p>I know it is hard to get them to do anything they don't want to...in fact you can't. It has to be something they want to do or see as something they need to do for themselves. My WW had to find the bottom first before she could think of anti-deps as a possible help.<p>Maybe yours does too...<p>Hang in there...<p>E

I was extrememly depressed for over a month, and then on a roller coaster of depression for almost a year. I was totally against it too, for many reasons. I mentioned it to my aunt, only to find out she'd been on many for years. She informed me that most of my aunts and uncles on my mothers side were on, or had been on, some sort of antidepressant. It seemed to be hereditary! So I went to the doctor, she informed me of an extrememly mild one that she herself uses! All of a sudden everywhere I turned someone was taking them. I only took them for a few months...mainly because we never could get it regulated right and I was having side effects galore (weight gain and sleepiness)...but it did what it needed to do! Now I recommend it to anyone who is obviously in a hole. Just DO IT...you don't have to stay on it for goodness sakes...if you have a migraine you'd take some tylenol, so just TRY IT! I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if I were on that roller coaster for more than a month. My clearest thinking happend the 3 months following.