I found out about the affair almost 3 months ago. Now I believe I found my wife has been trying to decieve me as to how many times she got together with OM. she has only admitted to once and that was after I found hard evidence. Now I'm 90% sure she is decieving me even after we went through counsuling and the policy of radical honesty. She seems to be ready to deny it to the end. I'm starting arguements with lots of love busters killing everything we have worked on this morning. Should I just forget about it and make on I believe her or is there something else I should try. I'm now in a fog again and she seems to be hurting worse than me. This makes me feel terriable but I don't want any more deception and lies. Any ideas on what I should do?

TD;
Sorry to hear about this. But have faith, it is normal for WSs to continue to lie until they reach some of the same conclusions you have reached about your M.<p>Counseling helps, especially if they follow the Harley guidelines, but these things take time. Be patient, don't LB, don't argue about this, Plan A the very best you can.<p>She is probably still scared that if she says everything she may hurt you in a way that would be irretrievable; time, patience, and your Plan A will help her get there.<p>I know it is hard, I found out about my WWs A 8 months ago, and we haven't even reached the point of her agreeing to No Contact and Radical Honesty...it's a long slow road.<p>Work on you, your Plan A, and give it time.
Keep posting here, vent here, not at her!

TheD:<p>3 months isn't all that long. Not surprisingly, you're still pretty suspicious (she hasn't opened up to you to your satisfaction). How did you find out about the A? What was the hard evidence? How are you "90% sure" she's still deceiving you? Have you "blown your cover" by revealing your hard evidence? Could you use that same method, whatever it was, again? Snooping can be useful, depending on what stage of the A or plan A you are in. At some point, you may come to the realization, as many do, that continued snooping only confirms what you already know, and that eventually you get to the point that you know what you're going to do about your M whether you snoop or not, and so you may decide to quit. Snooping just made me crazy, because of what I found or thought I might find. Doesn't really help me much anymore. But that may be very different for you.<p>She needs to come to understand your need for complete honesty, resulting in questions that she might not want to answer. WSs nearly always want the BSs to "get over it, already" whereas BSs nearly always want the WS to "feel remorse, and give me a reason to trust you, already". <p>You didn't say how long your W's A lasted. Maybe you don't know. What you should do may depend on how long it's been going on. If it's only been a short while, it may be very addictive for her still, and there may not be much you can do to stop it, if she doesn't want to stop at this point. <p>This is hard stuff to deal with, for sure. Read all you can about As from this site and the books (lots of recommendations from people here that have been through what you're going through), and post often to this forum. There are people that can help! Just need a litttle more information.

It was through e mails phone and public functions until 12/30. I found out from her saved emails. She said it was terriable and only physical the once that I read in the emails. I'm sure she isn't still going on with it, the guy was a looser. However she has said a lot of things based on the one PA and I found some items marked in her calender that I think indicate two or three other times back four months ago. there is no more snnoping left to do and I'm sick of it any how. Should I drop it since she is done and move on knowing she isn't 100% honest or should I leave her.

TheD:<p>Your question: "Should I drop it since she is done and move on knowing she isn't 100% honest or should I leave her." leaves a lot of guessing to be done here.<p>I'd drop it if it bothers you to snoop. Then, since you don't intend to snoop, you're not blowing any cover by confronting her with these other dates you're suspicious about. Talk to her. Try to get her to be honest with you? Should you leave her??? Well, that's a heck of a question. Depends. Do you love her? Does she love you? I wouldn't just leave her at this point if you love her at all. Even if you DV, you both stand a fair chance of repeating your mistakes in future Rs, so it behooves you to deal with your M problems NOW, and TOGETHER, with a good Counselor. <p>Don't just give up, unless you really don't care.

I will not be able to commit to my M unless and until I feel I am on equal footing with my H, and that includes knowing everything that he knows about how he betrayed me--everything and every time. The reason for this is RESPECT. I will not remain married to someone who has so disrespected me as a human being as well as the covenant of M and then continues to do so by not disclosing the information I find necessary to make an informed decision about my life.<p>I would be a fool to marry such a person, so it follows that I would be a fool to remain married to such a person. If this aspect of his character and way of relating to me does not improve within a reasonable amount of time (Plan A/Plan B), then we are not rebuilding and are instead working on the next A, hence no reason to remain married.<p>Here is how I have handled it: I finally got tired of trying to get blood from a turnip. They will only disclose when they're ready to disclose. So I just stopped asking questions. I told him that unless HE follows the extraordinary precautions to prove to me that he is NOT having an A, I will assume he is and that will negatively affect my feelings for him and my commitment to the M. I pointed out that so far, all of my gut instincts have been correct, so that is what I trust in now.<p>I figure he will either get it or he won't, and if he doesn't get it by the time my Love Bank is so in the red that I'm ready to divorce rather than remain married to him, then that is his misfortune--he will have bypassed a golden opportunity, and I will be able to leave the M with a clear conscience that I did what I could to protect my children from the fate of divorce.<p>We are going to feel what we feel, and the WS's behavioral decisions are going to affect our feelings for them. Dr. Harley recognizes the drain on the Love Bank of Plan A, which is why it is limited to giving the A a reasonable time to die a natural death and/or until the BS is in danger of losing all feeling for the WS.<p>As he explained to me, without following a specific plan of recovery that adequately addresses the A and other marital issues, then we are working on the next A, and we are both vulnerable--me because I'm being LB-ed to death by the disrespect of his denial about the A and refusal to process it in a healthful way and him because without that processing he is not gaining insight into why he had an A, so he has no plan for preventing a future A.<p>I think it is appropriate to share this insight with the WS--that the BS is willing to follow a plan of recovery that cares for and protects both partners, but that if the A is not fully examined and processed, it will detrimentally affect the R because of the LBs the lack of honesty inflicts on the BS and the failure of the WS to understand how and why s/he failed to protect the BS and the M from his/her weaknesses.<p>It should be apparent to the WS from their own experience with the decisions they made that depleting the BS's Love Bank will result in marital failure in the form of an A and/or separation/divorce. How long they want to keep the R at risk by continuing their non-rebuilding behavior is up to them, but at least they cannot claim they were not informed ahead of time of what was likely to happen. Or maybe they can claim it as some are wont to do, but it won't be true. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheD:
<strong>I'm sure she isn't still going on with it, the guy was a looser. .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How are you sure of this? Are you absolutely positive? Can you verify this? Has she sent a No Contact letter you both wrote? Did it elicit any reaction from the OM?<p>This is important and makes a big difference; If you ARE sure, then beating her up about the "whole truth" is probably not worth it, and it's a big LB. (besides I know how much hearing this stuff hurts). Snooping is also not necessary if you're sure, unless it's to "keep her honest" by checking up on her every once in a while.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheD:
<strong>However she has said a lot of things based on the one PA and I found some items marked in her calender that I think indicate two or three other times back four months ago. there is no more snnoping left to do and I'm sick of it any how. Should I drop it since she is done and move on knowing she isn't 100% honest or should I leave her.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you're sure the A has ended and there's no more contact, dwelling on whether they met 1 time or 5 is not going to make any difference, and will only hurt you more.
She'll get more honest with time and when she sees you're loving, supporting, understanding...let it be.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>I will not be able to commit to my M unless and until I feel I am on equal footing with my H, and that includes knowing everything that he knows about how he betrayed me--everything and every time. The reason for this is RESPECT.<p>As he explained to me, without following a specific plan of recovery that adequately addresses the A and other marital issues, then we are working on the next A, and we are both vulnerable--me because I'm being LB-ed to death by the disrespect of his denial about the A and refusal to process it in a healthful way and him because without that processing he is not gaining insight into why he had an A, so he has no plan for preventing a future A.<p>[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Agreed, Conqueror, but only in theory. Everything you say is correct and valid. I think the ONLY places you are going overboard is in 2 things: knowing "...everything and every time." is not necessary. Knowing enough to be able to make an informed decision, yes. Knowing EVERYTHING AND EVERY TIME, is unrealistic and too painful for both of you. Probably more to you than to him.
Think about it; does it make a difference if the made love 3 times or 5? If they were together 20 times or 30? To your sense of injustice and human desire to "know it all", yes. To re-build your marriage, I don't think so.<p>And the next paragraph demonstrates this. It reads "...adequately addresses the A..." Operative word ADEQUATE. Not complete and absolute, adequate.<p>At some point knowing every single detail, of every single encounter, to the Nth degree is too painful, too draining, and will only provide you with a wider assortment of "movies" you will play over and over in your head forever...and the recovery itself will probably become SO painful to both of you, that you won't survive it. Or your M won't survive it.

Space,<p>That's me, he knows how my mind works, that's who he wants to be married to, AND that's radical honesty.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Dr. Harley from SAA:
<strong>When you follow this rule, you should reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know [emphasis mine]--your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.<p>[and further down the page]
Historical honesty: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure[once again, emphasis mine]</strong><hr></blockquote> <p>I want all the pieces to the puzzle, just as I did BEFORE we were married. There is nothing new or unique about it. Pretty much everything I've read says it is up to the BS to decide how much they want to know. I want to know as much information about him as he knows, as Dr. Harley states above. Have you read the Personal History Questionnaire?<p>I'm not asking for any more than I give. I'm not invested in whether my M survives or not. My M died. He killed it. I embarked upon this journey from a divorcing posture. I have absolutely no interest in resurrecting the old M. I am trying to build a new M upon the foundation of care, protection, time, and HONESTY. I'm not interested in any other kind of M, and I told my H that on D-day. He has no obligation to participate in that with me or meet my need for radical honesty. It is his free choice, just as it was when he wanted to marry me in the first place.<p>You can have the M you want, and I am entitled to have the M I want or none at all. I'm not interested in any other alternatives. So far, I'm surviving and the M is intact in its present form. I choose not to settle. If something else works for you, then fine. You are entitled to your opinion and to make dire predictions based upon it, but there is no way you can know what I and/or my R can or cannot handle. Only *I* can decide what is adequate for me, as you are the one to decide for yourself.<p>There is a reason for historical honesty, and this is my take on it and why it is a marital requirement for me: INTIMACY. Knowing each other and everything about each other and loving each other because of and IN SPITE OF that knowledge I would think would be the best kind of intimacy--to be totally revealed to your partner and be wanted and accepted by him/her.<p>It does create the crucible Dr. Schnarch talks about to be that honest, and some marriages will terminate from the pressure and heat of the crucible, but those who stick it out will reach a greater state of intimacy and fulfillment in M. That is my hope and why I'm willing to stay in the crucible.<p>And BTW, I WILL survive and find contentment whether I am married or not. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>