A long story short: D-day 1.5 months ago, pursuing Plan A with WW, mixed success. Know for certain that contact is still here and she still says that “she is in love with him”. She is sorry for me being hurt that much, and sometimes it hits her badly and she cries over it. At other times she doesn't show any remorse at all. Email/phone contact between her & OM is still there, but less frequent (1-2 weekly as opposed to daily before). She doesn't know that I'm aware of that (snooping).
On the other hand, can now (finally) speak pretty openly, have great discussions without any accusations, LB etc. All the tension which was before in the house (and which I could not fully explain) is gone.
One key feeling she has is that when she is with him “she is full of energy and self-esteem” whilst with me “she can’t accomplish anything and is very passive”. I have to admit, that when she came back from a visit to OM her face was really glowing, whilst with me she tends to be miserable. That, of course, hurts me. So, she suggests that she goes away, tries to become “independent” and then, maybe, at a later stage coming back?
I am sure that I do fulfil at least some of her EN pretty well &#8211; surely the financial & family needs. She doesn&#8217;t earn anything and is financially dependent on me (hence the need of her to &#8220;free herself from me financially&#8221;- needless to say that I&#8217;m not a penny pincher at all & she has and always had full access to all accounts; all our accounts are shared anyway). OM by the way couldn't financially support her at all.<p>So, still doing plan A, still hoping for the best. But it DOES cost me quite a bit in terms of effort, energy, hope and sometimes I just feel like chucking it all in, go to the airport and hitch a flight to New Zealand or wherever.<p>Hopeless or not? Continue with plan A? Or let her discover the &#8216;harsher&#8217; realities herself?

Nick, you're not separated, right? Without a physical separation, Plan B is dern near impossible.<p>One thing you said raised my eyebrows:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong> pursuing Plan A with WW, mixed success.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How are you determining your "success"?<p>What kind of "success" do you expect?<p>This is not a trick question. I'm asking for a reason. Don't anybody else answer for him.

No - not separated. It's clear that if plan B is go that I would move out.
How I would judge success of plan A? I'm thinking of the following:
- having open discussion without LBs [SUCCESS]
- WW to stop contact with OM [NO SUCCESS]
- getting to a common understanding that "we are going to try it" [NO SUCCESS]
- trying my best to become a better husband, fulfilling her needs better [DEFINATELY TRYING]
- therefore, feeling better about it myself [UPS & DOWNS]

OK, Nick, let's review Plan A a little.<p>If you are trying to change anything other than yourself thru Plan A, you will not be successful.<p>Thus, trying to accomplish, "WW to stop contact with OM" is not going to happen due to any Plan A actions, or inactions, or your part. There is NOTHING you can do to influence this, other than to promote it by interfering.<p>Understand?<p>Similarly, "getting to a common understanding that "we are going to try it"" also will not be successful solely by virtue of your Plan A. Yes, you have to do Plan A to set the stage for this, but this will not occur until your W is dern good and ready. You cannot make this happen.<p>Plan A is all about YOU making changes and improvements to eliminate those things YOU have control over that contributed to the favorable environment for the affair to occur. This means YOU fixing YOUR faults.<p>A "successful" Plan A is YOU taking a thorough inventory and making self improvements. It is not definby the status of your marriage.<p>Good luck,
WAT

Thanks Worthatry,<p>Point taken. However, "WW to stop contact with OM" and "getting to a common understanding that "we are going to try it"" is for me still a desired outcome of the whole excercise. But I agree with you that it would be wrong to expect it as a direct outcome of plan A. <p>This still leaves me a bit in limbo.... waiting & praying & being as a good sport as possible is all I can do now, which is - over time - mildly frustrating.<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</p>

Guess I have just to grin and bear it, and be patient?<p>Any views on at what point in time / trigger you felt it was time to move from plan A to B?

The way I understand it is, you need to set a time limit for Plan A. You move to Plan B when you are in danger of losing your love for your spouse.
I heard the suggested time for Plan A is six months. I don't know if I could have done it that long.
The fact that your W is spending less time contacting OM sounds good. Remember progress will come slowly.
Hopefully you won't need to go to Plan B. But if you do, maybe your wife should be the one to move out, not you. After all she's the one who wants out of the marriage.

Good point about WS moving out instead of me....
However: that would be disruptive for our daughter. she is likely to stay with WS as I would have to give up my job to look after her (and WS wants D with her... no illusions here on my side - men lose out always in these cases, even when the "guilty" party by law is the W). <p>Similarly, kicking WS out cannot do really as she has no income.
So that's why I assumed me moving out is best, with me looking after D weekends.

Nick - I'll plan on offering a more detailed answer later, when I have some more time, about the decision on when to go to Plan B. OK?<p>But for now, ditto espoir about you NOT moving out. Can you explain your rationale for being willing to do this?<p>WAT

Nick -<p>I have been Plan A'ing for 6 months. There was contact between H and OW but I didn't know.<p>Anyway, I don't think I really did a true Plan A until about a month and a half ago. In the beginning I was meeting H's ENs and the only focus on myself was directly related to his needs - my attractiveness for example. For me I would do things to stay sane - stress releiver type things, baths, tea, come here to vent, etc. <p>Then somehow Plan A became about me. I decided life was too short for this baloney. I decided to do the things I had always wanted to do or used to do but didn't do anymore. My D and I would make plans and go. We were always sure to invite H, but if he declined we still went saying we wished he could go but we understood. And don't get me wrong - I planned our activities carefully - things I know H liked, used to enjoy or always wanted to do [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] At first - he was suspicious, then confused and as I kept going and having fun - then he wanted to go. He even said he caught himself having fun with me! One time he couldn't make an event and he said he really wanted to go but couldn't but would I please go again sometime with him! We were laughing again and I would see a glimpse of the fog lifting here and there.<p>I have found out since H was still talking to OW during all this and she started to become frustrated. H was becoming in OW words "hollow" and "distant". It was turning around [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] He was having fun with me and distant with her!
We have since since hit another bump in the road, I discovered contact and OW is becoming a fatal attraction case but I have decided not to quit. In 10 years I will look back and no matter the outcome in my heart I will know I tried my best. I will have no regrets or what if's.<p>Plan A is hard work and takes time. Make sure it is about you. As far as a time frame - everyone is different and only you know what's best for you.<p>Hang in there - success is possible. I will prove it!

Nick -- Give yourself a bit more time. It is frustrating and incredibly hard to do a good planA. I definitely had many occurrences of one step forward/two steps back, but am starting to see that my WH is at least remorseful, a bit less confused, and maybe willing to try and sort this out after a little over three months since dday.<p>For the first two months I heard the same things you wrote -- "I'm in love with OW -- I love you, but not in love with you", "I feel alive with OW", "I am a different person with OW", "Our marriage has never been good", blah blah blah. They all say THE SAME THING. That has stopped. <p>I definitely did not do a good plan A (frankly no plan A) for the first few weeks. I had been lied to for so long when I tried to confront him over many months about the suspected A that when I did discover it I kicked him out of the house. This has made it much harder to do a good planA and I think probably facilitated the continued EA/possible PA.<p>So, my advice is to hang a little longer and only move to plan B when you really feel like you cannot control your emotions much longer/cannot possibly not LB. I thought I was at that point last week and then my WH revealed that he was trying and was sorry and couldn't understand why in the world he would do this to me/our marriage, etc. etc.<p>We've all felt like chucking it and that this is too hard. It is hard, but I feel like I needed to try/you should try -- what is six months of plan A in the scheme of your life and your marriage? You can do it.

Espoir, Worthatry: About the me or her moving out part. My thoughts are:
- Daughter would be with WW, I can&#8217;t look after her & work at the same time. But maybe the situation calls for more radical changes? But leaving my job (a business which I have co-founded, which I like) would raise a lot of other problems &#8211; financially.
- I also think that if Daughter would move out, that would be seriously disruptive for her. And whatever WW and I do, our Daughter shouldn&#8217;t suffer (so much we agree about)
- WW has no financial means whatsoever, her OM neither. So if WW was to leave (with D), then they would have a very hard life. (in fact, maybe that&#8217;s the only reason why she still sticks with me&#8230;..??)
- Obviously, would pay during separation for Daughter, but not for WW.
- On the other hand: OM lives in US whilst we live in Europe&#8230;. If WW wants to be with OM, then they would move out by definition.
Looking at my list above, thinking about it again, maybe you guys are right. WW longs to be with OM, so why the hell she doesn&#8217;t just bugger off. If she comes back, good, if not &#8211; too bad. Ouch, what a mess.<p>UnsureHeart, Twinkles: Many thanks for the suggestions. Will try to make me happy more in the coming weeks rather than focusing on being miserable. Problem is, if I&#8217;m really frank, that at this point I truly don&#8217;t know what I like at all doing, what I enjoy at all in my life. The things I truly like are pretty lonely affairs, like reading books or long distance running.<p>Update on relationship between WW & OM: WW tells him that she is only sticking with me so I won&#8217;t go out of my mind. Not sure what I&#8217;m supposed to think about that.
On the one hand, it means she DOES care about me. However, sort of motherly feeling towards me is not a solid basis moving forward, is it? OM on the other hand waits &#8220;for a decision from her&#8221;. And she waits &#8220;until he grows up&#8221; before she moves to him whatever on earth that is supposed to mean. Looks like he is unsure whether he could care for her/MY daughter at all or not.<p>
Does anyone have a dictionary Plain English &#8211; Alienese??

Nick -- I know the hardest part for you right now is that you feel that your WW is only staying with you out of financial or motherly care for you. What you need to remember is that at this stage, the WW is not operating in the real world. The fact that she is still there is because deep down she does care and probably more than she is letting on to you. <p>You are just one month past dday and I can tell you that things get a bit more sane. You are actually fortunate the OM is not in the same country. You have a much better chance of doing a good plan A than if the OM were right under her nose.<p>I don't really have any sage words of wisdom because I'm only a few months ahead of you in all this. Mostly I wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you and encouraging you to keep trying because there is much in your situation that is more positive than most. She has not left yet. The OM is in another country. <p>Keep trying and keep posting.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>Nick -- I know the hardest part for you right now is that you feel that your WW is only staying with you out of financial or motherly care for you.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Exactly - that's how I&#8217;m feeling.<p>Sometimes I think that if she would leave me & move to OM it might be easier? After all, then OM would have to take care of all her needs fully [which I believe, over all, I do a much better job at], and reality/clarity would settle in faster.<p>As it is now, it just seems to me that the agony is continuing forever&#8230;. Even if she would emotionally return to me, won&#8217;t she always have the feeling that, as she didn&#8217;t try it out for real with OM, she has missed a chance and that after all, life with OM might be better?<p>It seems to me that this is the point of going to plan B&#8230;. that plan A followed by plan B is really the answer in cases where the fog doesn&#8217;t seem to lift forever.

Nick - sorry I have been so long getting back to you. It's been a busy week.<p>Having a HUGE separation between the affairees may present some different strategies to you. It's almost silly for either one of you to move out unless either OM or she will swim across the big pond. What's the point? So, perhaps you have a captive audience to demonstrate your Plan A improvements. If you stand your ground and don't leave, I doubt she will unless she has some family who will take her in. Here's my suggestion: wait her out and be the best Dad you can be to your daughter. The affair will end. Your challenge will be avoiding those LBs and biting your lip. Maybe by immersing yourself TOTALLY into your daughter's life - not that you're not already being a good Dad - you will have a bit more distraction to ride this out. I highly recommend you get some professional counseling rather than relying solely of us amatuers.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>WW tells him that she is only sticking with me so I won't go out of my mind. Not sure what I'm supposed to think about that.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'll tell you exactly what you should think: horse hockey. She's sticking with you for one prominent reason: she's not one bit sure that she wants to do otherwise. She's a few fries short of a happy meal right now and she has NO IDEA you can see right through her.<p>Keep us posted.<p>WAT

Given that the OM lives in the US, I definitely would NOT move out. Would you allow your daughter to move to US with WW?<p>You don't have to quit your job.
Plenty of single mothers work and have custody. They have daycare or babysitters + school. Spend the support money you would give your wife on caregivers.Or your wife can move into an apartment and care for daughter (at your house or her apt) while you're at work, if she wants to maintain contact with D.<p>It's all about CONSEQUENCES. If your wife wants to leave the marriage, life might be less comfortable for her. That is a consequence of her choice. Why should she continue to live comfortably in the marital home with your D, while you support them from afar? What if OM moves in- how do you feel about paying for him to live with her?<p>If she wants this OM so bad, she can move out, move in with him. She can get some kind of crappy job and live in a crappy cheap apartment with him, or live with his parents. I'm sure that when the reality of moving out hits her, she will not take action. OM will get tired of waiting, and his attempts to force her hand will become a major LB.<p>>>Update on relationship between WW & OM: WW tells him that she is only sticking with me so I won’t go out of my mind.<<
She tells him this because she isn't at all sure about what she is doing with him. It's an excuse to fob him off and avoid taking action to destroy your marriage. <p>During the time my H was thinking about moving out "to think and get in touch with his feelings", OW was drooling at the idea of getting her claws into him. I found out I had a possible health problem- something that could be serious. (Fortunately I was fine). H told OW that he couldn't possibly move out when I might be ill. It was a way for him to buy time. He was looking for any excuse to avoid moving out.<p>Plan A your little heart out baby. Think about the marriage you want and who you want to be. Concentrate on being a great dad. Look at the ENs of affection, admiration and conversation- I bet that is what's making your wife glow. Do some fun exploring of the world and try to get your wife to go along with you. Ignore the continued contact with OM for the moment. Just focus on you, and on your wife. Remember, she is sleeping under your roof and not under his.<p>Question: OM lives in the states? Where is he staying right now? In your country or the US?<p>Your position must be: "I love you, I love our family. I'm willing to work on the issues in our marriage. I want to create a wonderful marriage with you. I believe in us.
In the meantime, I want to grow and learn, explore the world, and I hope you will come with me on the journey.
If you need to leave your husband and your family in order to find happiness, I can't stop you. I will miss you and feel very sad."<p>Given the impracticality of the relationship with OM, give this Plan A several months. Eventually he will tire of waiting and start committing LBs.
If you get to the point where you can't take it any more, you will have to move to Plan B. Which is, "I love you, but you have to move out, because I can no longer live with a liar and a cheat- it's too painful. I can not allow you to continue to demean yourself in this way by lying and cheating. You must move out to pursue your love." <p>Don't assume the courts will necessarily side with WW. They usually will side with the parent who shows a better ability to provide a stable home life for the child. WW with her inability to support herself, pursuing an adulterous realtionship with an OM who can't support her, hardly seems like a stable candidate. Uprooting your child to move to the states doesn't seem like it's in the best interest of the child either. Not to mention all the immigration issues. Come up with a reasonable plan of how you can provide a stable situation for your daughter.
By the way, how old is your daughter?<p>I suspect that deep down, you're daunted by the thought of taking full responsibility for D, because it seems like a mother's job. Again, remember how many single moms hold down jobs and care for their children too with little help from the father. You can do it. Remember, if you do march all the way to divorce, you can always renegotiate for shared custody. (I'm sure your W will be fighting to get more custody). Don't sign away your fatherly rights so quickly, and accept being an every other weekend dad. <p>I know I spoke a bit strongly in this post, this is just my opinion, you must make your own decisions, and you are the one who truly knows your situation, and I respect your judgment- so I hope I haven't offended you with this advice.<p>Best of luck, hope the FOG burns off soon-

Hi Nick123, I was reading your original post and you wife seems to be expressing a desire to become independent from you - well you said she said that, actually. If that's the case, let her. Yes, you do provide a good home and salary, but that statement could be fog or it could be her saying "I need a life", I need to feel worthwhile or whatever. Notice she chose an OM that can't support her.<p>Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.<p>I do think she should be the one to leave, you're going through enough turmoil with all this, you need some stability. If you love your job and really don't want to leave, then why should you? There are ways you could keep your daughter and still work.<p>Another 2 cents...<p>Good luck

Nick 123, I second the motion for counceling, It's the best thing I do for me. I have someone I can tell what is on my mind, and his only bias is that I'm thinking clearly and doing right by me.<p>Your wife needs you for the home life she has now, and can't see the rest. Your daughter needs her daddy. Put your efforts into time spent with your daughter. It fills your need to be appreciated, and helps her at this time. Reading and running are both things that can help right now. Reading can "take you away" for a bit, and running is good for you. The rush from running is a great antidepressent. The main side effect I know of from running is a good looking healthy body. Not bad.
After my wife and I separated, I started running and watching my diet and with the stress took off 52 lbs. That and some new clothes did get her attention and made me feel better about me. Feel good about YOU, and do things you like. Find something to laugh at.
Good luck D.

Many thanks everybody for all your feedback, for taking time and giving me some advice. It really helps me a lot, and I appreciate it very much.
Sorry for getting back only now, have been quite busy the last few days.<p>Some answers to questions you have raised plus a few additional points/remarks:<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by worthatry <strong>
The affair will end &#8211; your challenge will be avoiding those LBs and biting your lips
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>...errr right. They did it for 2 years, know each other well (EA?) for 10&#8230;. Maybe they think they can continue for another 20 behind my back? Will monitor situation & draw consequences.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by espoir <strong>
would you allow your daughter to move to US with WW?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, maybe. Daughter definitely loves WW a lot, at that age (5) surely a closer bond than with me. Removing WW from picture would definitely be hard on daughter.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by espoir <strong>
what if OM moves in- how do you feel about paying for him to live with her?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No f***ing way. Wrote him, that if he sets foot on continent I will wait for him with a cricket bat. Am seriously looking forward to meet the chap in a dark alley.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by espoir <strong>
where is OM staying now? Visa issues
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OM is in US, myself, WW and daughter in UK.
Visas ARE a problem &#8211; WW couldn&#8217;t stay longer than 1-3 months in the US anyway. As mentioned, WW might feel forced to stay with me rather than by her own will&#8230;<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by espoir <strong>
Given the impracticality of the relationship with OM, give this Plan A several months. Eventually he will tire of waiting and start committing LBs.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, that&#8217;s the point isn&#8217;t it. As long as OM appears to be an ideal pipedream far far away and disconnected from any reality of life, how can reality settle in? As said, maybe it would be easier if WW would try it out with OM and discover reality much quicker.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by Seahorse <strong>
you need some stability &#8211; she should be the one to leave
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Seahorse &#8211; first of all, I am very sorry for your mum. When it rains, it pours, doesn&#8217;t it.
All you guys are right of course &#8211; she&#8217;s the WS, she would have to leave me. But equally I could leave as well &#8211; I don&#8217;t really mind. The leaving-everything-behind, don&#8217;t-look-back option crossed my mind a few times, I have to say. Would find a new job in, say, Australia quite easily. Radical method, I agree, but a tough situation calls for tough measures, doesn&#8217;t it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by Seahorse <strong>
Notice that she chose an OM that can&#8217;t support her
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good observation &#8211; absolutely true. But that&#8217;s even a reason more for WW to feel compelled/forced to stay with me, rather than for her to re-connect emotionally with me by her own will. Again, maybe her discovering the reality (in a plan B) setting might help?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally posted by Daniel <strong>
Running is a great antidepressant
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely! Get these Beta-endorphines flowing! Done a marathon & feel great.<p>
Many thanks guys &#8211; further views/comments very much appreciated.

And about Espoir's comment:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by espoir:
<strong>Don't assume the courts will necessarily side with WW. They usually will side with the parent who shows a better ability to provide a stable home life for the child. WW with her inability to support herself, pursuing an adulterous realtionship with an OM who can't support her, hardly seems like a stable candidate. Uprooting your child to move to the states doesn't seem like it's in the best interest of the child either. Not to mention all the immigration issues. Come up with a reasonable plan of how you can provide a stable situation for your daughter.
By the way, how old is your daughter?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's the hardest part, really. D is 5 years old, soon 6. If there is a plan B, a separation and/or a divorce, daughter will be uprooted, suffer, miss one of us, for sure. Everybody who thinks the contrary is just not sane in his mind (especially WS who contemplate that living with OM will provide a better family setting.... how ridiculous). If it comes that far, I will launch another thread - complex problem indeed.