My WH and i are "seperated", he is still living withus and i am plan a very hard, most of the time well. almost every day he wants sf. i am really having a hard time with this as i feel like i am crossing some sort of line, cake and eat it to. he says they aren't (SF) but i don't know if i believe him (probably another lie). also, it is starting to make me resentful. what do you think, keep plan aing and try and meet all his needs, even that one??? HELP HELP HELP

I don't know that this'll be much help, but I am having sort of the same/sort of the opposite problem.<p>I have had a much higher sex drive since d-day. I guess it makes me feel safe and loved and connected to H. The problem is afterward. Then, I feel like a complete idiot. I don't let H know this, but it really bugs me. Makes me feel like I'm "using" sex to manipulate him into staying. I also lay there and wonder if I "measure up" to what he had with OW. I know SF is probably his #1 or #2 EN.<p>He's not doing anything to make me feel this way; he doesn't, like, ignore me after sex. He's very attentive. I just feel that way.<p>This is so hard...

well, gang, it works both ways...<p>I need SF to feel connected...and she has to feel connected to want it...and while she has come a LONG way, the few times we made love, later she felt that it was "too soon" and that she wasn't "there" yet. so we don't...<p>which frustrates me, but she is worth waiting for in my mind....soo.....<p>everyone is different. If you feel you are being used, you had better talk about it...I am in the situation where to "check the temperature" would be "pushing". I am just going to have to sense my way through this...but then we are trying to clean up many years of crap with what we are doing.<p>these kinds of questions show how important communication is...almost can't resolve the other ENs without it!

For me SF is very important. Even if all my other needs are being filled if I dont have SF occassionally, I do not feel loved. However, I do have other EN's, (which my WW rarely fills now), that can outway to a certain extent the SF.<p>IMHO: You need to find a comfortable balance for you. Plan A can work without SF but it will probably take much longer. A few tips to make the SF stonger for him: Try not giving it to him every day. Tease him about it a little, he will appreciate it more when he gets it. Take control during SF. I LOVE [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] it when my wife does this!! It makes me feel great for weeks!!!! Where lingerie and tease him with your body a little. If you do this, you will drive him nuts, and when he finally gets some, his love bank will fill up fast. Be carefull not to be too much of a tease though. There is a point where you will drive him over the edge. <p>Keep in mind though, that you need to take care of yourself now. If that means no SF, then you will have to crank up the other EN's. Good luck.

hmmmm.<p>In my case I'm still intimate with WW, feelings are definately stronger than before D-Day.
However, SF is still low - on both sides presumably - it's just standard stuff (no kissing, no cuddling before/after, no teasing whatsoever).<p>Guess that she just "let's me have a go" so I wont go mad..?

Thanks for the post everyone,<p>Any advice is appreciated, i never realized how alone i would feel. (except here of course) these are just not things you can discuss with WS or family LOL (((( hugs and prayers))) for everyones sanity

hang in there cloudy...I keep going back to what Dr. Harley says...if there is no feeling behind the SF, then you aren't really meeting their EN, you are meeting yours! And in the end, you are only going to fully recover when you BOTH want to meet each others ENs. Now, as in Plan A, you may have to "prime the pump", but at some time, there has to be reciprocation or, as the good doctor says, you "feel like a chump." Only you can sense accurately what is going on here. Are you rewarding good behavior or helping spouse to see what they are missing if they chose OP over you?

another thing...does he look into your eyes...do you connect while SF? Or is he fantasizing while he is with you? I felt this was going on with W the few times we had SF...so, although I missed it, I think she was smart enough to realize that until she was WHOLLY WITH ME, that we would abstain. Think on this too...

thanks,
you have some really good points, i think he is a mmmmvisual person, he is into pictures and would like to video kind of a little kinki for the school teacher in me, plus its a trust thing. i know that this is his # 1 en and if i don't meet it i am sure it will get met elsewhere, everyday when i wake up i think how the H*** did i get into this crazy situation. somedays i would really like to fly away and never come back. SF isn't really an EN of mine, truly i would love to snuggle and talk. I really do feel like a chump alot. How can i be so stupid. I know i can take care of me and mine, i am a good parent and we are a family, ( he has never really participated in "family" stuff) so

What helped me was realizing that if I had left him and was dating someone, I'd have no way of knowing if the guy I was dating was with someone else when he wasn't with me either, so I tried to imagine how I'd handle it in that situation. You don't feel so entitled OR as used then. You are better able to decide what YOU want.<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

cloudyday,<p>I feel like a chump quite a bit myself. I give and give and I feel like my WW is taking advantage of this. However, every once in a while she will do something to show improvement for our relationship, and that makes all the diference. All my hard work seems very worthwhile.<p>Be very attentive. Look for signs that what you are doing is making a difference. Is there any signs?

up, still need help with this, it gets harder every time
I AM THE CHUMP AGAIN.

I can relate to your problem. That is my husbands reason for having an affair. And i accepted the blame. I gave him SF whenever he wanted it and most of the time i initiate it . He was very happy alright but i am not. I also got EN which he is not giving me. I talked to him about it and his response is he's not the affectionate type blah..blah..So here i am standing firm with my decision that if he's not gonna make an effort to my EN then we have to separate no matter how much i love him. If he's happy me giving him SF i want to be happy too by him giving me EN.
Separated...? in what way..? I guess i cant blame you for giving in to his SF as you live in the same house but you have to realise in the end you'll get hurt more than you are now. I dont really know your story but is there hope in reconcillation ? 'coz if it is then Give in but if theres no hope you have to think twice because you give him SF because it will be harder to cope on your part.

Cloudyday --<p> I had exactly this same issue with my H while he was living at home and in an on-again, off-again affair. I strongly believe that sex should take place in the context of a loving relationship. I never thought that I could or would have sex with someone who did not love me. My H however was very interested in continuing this part of our relationship. In fact he considered my prior lackluster interest in sex to be THE reason for the affair.<p> At first I was so freaked out by the affair that I was DESPERATE to please him. As time went on I continued SF with the thought that so long as I felt love for HIM I was comfortable with it. However, as my love for him was lost, I found it increasingly difficult to keep at it. I nolonger desired him AND I felt I was compromising part of myself. For me that was the sign that I was ready to move to Plan B.<p> We have only recently begun counseling with the Harleys and were fumbling along with traditional MC during the period I describe above, so I don't know their take on this type of situation. But I know that their books say that one spouse should never have to suffer to meet the ENs of the other. IMHO, you shouldn't have SF with your H if it violates your sense of yourself or makes you feel humilated or degraded. I think that participating in that will only make you more resentful and make it harder to forgive.<p> I wasn't clear about the state of your recovery from your post. We are just beginning ourselves. SF remains a big issue for us. With help from Steve we are trying to address this by accepting that EACH of us must take steps to meet the other's EN. Knowing that my H is willing to address my needs makes it easier to trust him and meet his needs. Meeting his need for SF is made harder because I went too long giving SF when it did not feel right to me. It left me with a very sour taste and alot of trust issues. It's taking some doing to overcome those.<p> I hope this helps, I suspect this an issues for many, many people dealing with an affair and its aftermath.

Thank you for the reply,
I am not sure we are in recovery, he hasn't agreed to no contact,and states that we are seperated. you know what is weird. our relationship is better, he is trying to meet my needs, he once said i deserved to have a husband that would spend time with my family now, he hasn't missed a dinner or anything. He is spending time with our children, talking to me asks what i need ect.. im definitly confused. if i could just let this go, and stop bringing HER up i am sure it will die. HOW DO YOU DO THAT?? I know he went to see her at the strip club sat night but was home at midnight, (i pretended to be asleep not lb was to hard if we talked at all) you know this is undescribable. I am not in love anymore, but then again, i believe that love is a choice, that even when i don't feel "LOVE" that love is a commitment to a feeling that comes and goes. I am providing SF, trying to meet his needs, PLAN A for now, plan B soon if he is still in contact with her.

Cloudy, <p>For most men SF is #1, but, for me at least, it is also reassurance of "her loving" and being connected. During one of our many talks, WW told me that many times she did it but didn't want to because she didn't feel like loving me enough to have SF. That hurt. I would rather she had told me how she was feeling. we could have worked on WHY she didn't feel that way toward me. We could have stayed TRULY passionate.<p>Instead, for years it went on, And built up. I never knew, then A. I'm more sad than mad, it was so largely unavoidable, if she had only told me!!
She never gave me a chance [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (now that makes me a little angry)<p>It is best to be honest with your H. It will be much better later and you won't build resentment...you will give him (and you) a chance to work with you. If he doesn't, then you tried.<p>I also don't know your situation, but if he is working to come back he will work with you. If not then there is a definate, cake and eat it too, thing going on. A thought,,, SF is the strongest way to be connected/intimate, it is also at times simply a lot of fun. How is it for your H with you? For you with him?<p>IMHO, If the feelings are not right about SF, before, during, or after, figure out why, (MC or IC) and then be honest with yourself and H.

There is alot to consider,
Good luck,<p>DRS

Cloudyday -- <p> Oh my God have I been where you are!!!! First a couple of things that Steve H. told me that helped: 1) love IS conditional, it's the feeling you have when someone meets your needs. If your H doesn't meet your needs you won't, can't love him; 2) it's not YOUR job to feel love for your H, it's HIS job to make you feel that way by meeting your needs (And it's your job to do the same for him.)<p> As to your particular situation, I've been there as well. It took 7+ months for my H to end all contact. It was horrible, every time we seemed to make some progress he would back slide. I firmly believe that you can't make any real progress until the OP is out of the picture for REAL. So long as your H is seeing this woman you are fighting a battle you can't win. -- But once he stops, you've got a shot, and the boards are full of stories to prove it. Get some counseling if you haven't already and think hard about how much more you can take. If you've really given Plan A your best try and you feel your love for your H disappearing, I don't think you're doing yourself or anyone else a favor. Plan B requires you accept the possibility of divorce, but you don't have to want it as your first choice. Others may have better views, but for me Plan B was saying, I love you and want to save our marriage, but I nolonger love you enough to continue the way things are.<p> I would never presume to advise you, or anyone else to move to Plan B. You need to make that decision for yourself and IMHO with the support and insight of a good counselor. This stuff really sucks, but it shows you what you're made of at the same time. Maybe you should read the thread on fence sitting WSs if you haven't already? You'll see how much company you have!<p> I'm thinking good thoughts for you.

Everyone seems to be throwing the word "love" around using it generically for all types of love. Unfortunately the English language has only one word which means four different types of love. We seem to confusing "feelings of love" with real love. The love that is keeping my WW and I together has nothing to do with the feelings that we talk about when we mention Love Bank. The love that is true is unconditional and is similiar to what cloudyday says about love. All too often we all want to "feel good" about our spouse and we feel neglected when the spouse does not make us feel good. Well life is not all a bunch of good smelling flowers (obviously). When we said till death do us part, for richer or poorer, in sickness etc. where we really serious here or just mouthing the words. Of course we were serious, otherwise none of us would be at this website trying to make things work, and if you are here just for the children, then you are here for the wrong reasons. If the Love Bank was all that love is about, there would be no need for this forum. None of us would be with our spouses right now. <p>Does this mean we should put up with all the crap our WS's give us. Of course not. We do what Dr. Harley says, Plan A, Plan B etc., and if none of this will work to make our WS's love us back then we consider cutting our losses. We are not expected to be emotionally abused throughour our entire lifes. <p>Just remember, if none of the Plan A is coming from the heart, it will be very difficult to work and that includes sex. Plan A to be effective and to prevent LB needs to be an outward expression of the heart. I have learned this time and time again when I try to have sex with my WW, It is not working because it is not coming from the heart. I am just trying to get at least one of my EN's taken care of. We need to work on ourselfs while doing Plan A so that Plan A is realy effective.<p>Well sorry for the rambling. The last few posts just struck a chord in me.
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Cloudyday,<p>We are not chumps (even though we may feel like chumps and I too may post the same feelings), and we should never feel this way. We are just expressing our LOVE for our WS the only way we know how (and even inventing knew ways). Do what you think is right for you. Love the way you want to LOVE and get to a point where you can do it from the heart and do it unconditionally. I hope your WH can clear his fog long enough so that he can see this LOVE in you. I wish and hope that deep inside my WW has the same kind of LOVE you have been demonstrating with your WH. If she did, then I would have no concerns about a long and happy future with my wife. <p>You should be encouraged of the progress your WH seems to be making with him trying to fill your EN's and helping around the house, etc.<p>Thanks for all your understanding and encouragement on my posts.

Perhaps I should have been more clear when I attempted to pass along what Steve Harley explained to me and my H when we began counseling. I am certainly no expert!! As Steve described it, there are two types of love, romantic love and caring love. While it goes against everything most of think of as true, Steve insists that romantic love IS conditional. It is the love that makes marriages work and without it you cannot maintain a healthy relationship.<p> I didn't have any problem seeing the truth in that since for me after months of Plan A, I myself lost my feelings of love for my H. However I kept my intellectual committment to our marriage and a hope that the romantic love could be restored. The fact that I nolonger feel love towards my H doesn't mean I don't want our marriage. For me that's where the concept of committment comes in. I am committed enough to him to work like he** to restore our feelings of romantic love. But the fact is, if the two of us cannot regain romantic love for each other our marriage doesn't stand a chance -- nor should it.<p> I struggled with this idea for a while before counseling with MB. For me the problem was distinguishing between love and committment. I got some very clear headed advice from someone here and my later talks with Steve reinforced that. In a funny twist it was my H who had a harder time accepting that romantic love is conditional! But if love were really unconditional, H and I wouldn't be in the fix we are today.

stickingw/it,<p>I am sorry if I offended you. I was not really directing any of this to anyone. It was most in part something I have been dealing with. I just wanted to make a distintion between the different types of love and how important true love is in all of this not just romantic love. Romantic types of love are fleeting and conditional and must be reiforced by true love for marriage to work. It is not enough to have romantic love in a marriage. Remember that the WS has romantic love for the OP. When the light shines on the romantic love, the romantic love disolves and since there is no real love, the relationship dies, or so we hope.<p>If anyone researches the bible, you will know that the greeks had four words to describe our one word love:<p>Eros: Sexual passionate love
Storge: Natural bonding love with children, etc.
Phileo: Love of affection. (probably closest to the romantic love, but I think romantic love is the combination of Eros and Phileo.
Agape: Unconditional Love. Love that God has for us.<p>Agape love is the love that will keep a relationship together forever. IMHO: I think this is the love we need to revive for our WS in order to get the EROS and PHILEO working properly. The first day after D-day I had to determine if I still had Agape love for my WW. I saw that it was there and I have been working on reviving this in order to do Plan A and mean it.