I called the OM - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I blocked the OM's instant message address... I didn't answer my phone when he called... but he contacted me anyway. His message basically said "Please just tell me that you don't hate me?". So I called him. I have been concerned about him thinking that I hated him ever since writing the NC letter... I've told my H that I was concerned about that. So when he asked that exact question... I felt like I had to call him. I told him up front that there was to be no "love" talk or anything, and he respected that. He actually said that he's going to try to work out his marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I was so happy to hear that! He said that he had already decided before he contacted me that if we ever spoke again, we would be JUST FRIENDS. I told him that I had just wanted to let him know that I didn't hate him, and that he shouldn't contact me again. He was grateful to know that there was no hatred... and said that now he would be able to respect my wishes for him not to contact me again. I believe him.
I called my husband and told him that I had called OM and why - and exactly what OM and I had talked about. He was upset... he didn't yell or anything - kept his cool... but there was some silence... and his voice sounded strained for a bit. He said "thank you for being honest with me" and "you realize that this sets us back to the beginning...". *sigh* I know that he's right according to everything that I've read... but at the same time, I feel so much lighter! I don't have that "what happens if I run into the OM" fear, or the "does he think that I hate him?" thoughts running around in my head. I guess that time will tell whether I am back at square one with the withdrawal or not...
SMH

It will appear to your husband that you have put the OM feelings once again above his..

that you compassion for the oM...outweighs your compassion for your own husband...

I am telling you this because your post if full of explaining if I am being kind...rationalizing if I am being truthful as why you contacted him...

perhaps if you can see it from you husbands point of view...
to crawl inside of him and feel the beating of his heart....so to say...
you will be able to help your husband heal...and not be so concerned with the OM's healing process....

much luck to you...
ark

Why did you care what OM thought?

Editted to add:

Not knocking you, xOW pulled the same "do you hate me" line a year after DD. MANIPULATION to get a response that would make HER (not WS) feel better..take take take. You OM did the same, and you walked right into it willingly it seems. You H is right you and H (especially him) are back at square one in recovery.

With hope,
AG

[ January 21, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: A_Grace ]

smh:

"He said that he had already decided before he contacted me that if we ever spoke again, we would be JUST FRIENDS."

This is no longer a possibility. Once you and the OM had crossed the line at the start of your A, you ruined any "friendship" you may have shared before that.

Was it not clear in your NC letter that you didn't hate the OM? It should have been sufficient. His efforts 2 contact you were selfish, pure and simple.

Having said that, it is good that you told your H, the only one who's feelings you need be concerned about anyway. Yes, your H is right and your recovery has been set back. I don't know whether I'd call it "square one", but it doesn't matter how I feel. It matters how you and he feel. (it also doesn't matter worth a hill of beans what the OM feels).

Focus on the progress with your H that you HAVE been making. That's where recovery lies.

best,
-ol' 2long

So much Hurt

I hope you don't expect a pat on the back. Instead of protecting your H from further pain, you choose to break NC by listening to a message from the OM, and then choose to respond to that message. What makes you think it isn't a setback.

The OM is married, does his wife know of the A? Or even know of the phone call. Good now you have some concern lifted off your shoulders, and your H now knows that you really don't believe in NC, nor will you keep your word. Your call lets him know that the A can restart. And, if the OM does call again, and he will I don't have any doubt on that one what will you do. What will be the excuse next time.

There is no friendship with the OM. You crossed that line when you had the A. There can never again be just friends. No friendly conversations, no just saying Hi. What will you do if you run into the OM? How can you even concider a friendship with a person that was helping you to destroy your M. And you were helping him destroy his.

NC is NC is NC. Learn it, live it. No more contact for the rest of your life. Look at what he did, you wrote an NC letter and yet his needs to make sure he could get to you were more then your wish to work on your M. He knows that now that your willing to not follow through with your NC letter. He knows he can get to you. Don't believe him when he says he wants to work on his M. If he did he would have NC with you also. He didn't even respect your wishes. What does that really say. It tells me he doesn't respect you but only used you. And, that he is quite willing to use you again. This contact should make you mad, not relieved. The OM wasn't thinking about you, only himself, he is still in the meeting of HIS selfish needs. Time to wake up, your being played.

Ark -

It will appear to your husband that you have put the OM feelings once again above his..

that you compassion for the oM...outweighs your compassion for your own husband...

*sigh* You're right. I didn't think of that. How could I not have thought of that? I don't know... I guess I was busy thinking about myself and my own concerns again... I really need to be thinking about my H's needs more. I've been trying... but I guess I still have a long way to go.

I am telling you this because your post if full of explaining if I am being kind...rationalizing if I am being truthful as why you contacted him...

Thank you for putting that kindly. Rationalizing... you think so? I'll have to really look at that. I really didn't see it that way... but that's what rationalizing is all about, I suppose.

perhaps if you can see it from you husbands point of view...
to crawl inside of him and feel the beating of his heart....so to say...
you will be able to help your husband heal...and not be so concerned with the OM's healing process....

*nods* I need to concentrate on my H now. You are exactly right. I feel like I have some closure now... so I THINK and I HOPE that it will be easier for me to move forward... and leave behind those things in the past.

thank you...
SMH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by A_Grace:
 Why did you care what OM thought? <hr /></blockquote>Grace-
why did I care? I cared because I care about him. I wouldn't like to think that someone hated me... especially someone that I care about. Therefore, I didn't want him to think that I hated him, either. :-)

SMH

I agree with ark^^

I will add the following warning: your H may well have decided that your actions vis-a-vis placing the OM's emotional well-being ahead of his are a clear sign where your heart truly is - in spite of what your mouth may say. I wouldn't be surprised if he mentally checks out now.

Hopefully it won't be a permanent thing, but it will be up to you to DEMONSTRATE there is no wavering on your part. Otherwise, you will find yourself on a slide. He will become more distant and everything you do will simply prove the case "See? She doesn't give a damn about me."

The worst thing my WW did - yes even worse than intercourse with another man - was the constant invalidation of my feelings. Whatever I said I felt or wanted was constantly negated, qualified or denigrated. Moreover, I was chastised for not wanting or feeling the *right* thing, according to her. This was particularly true during recovery, as it didn't stop after d-day.

Finally, I got tired of it. I checked out, first mentally then physically. I figured that my W really didn't give a damn about me. Not me the father or our kids or the primary income earner, but me as a person.

I saw then I that not only did I not have her love; I didn't have her respect.

So, be careful what your actions say. Be careful how you minimize or invalidate your husband's concerns. If he is silent, it could because he feels he truly can't be open to you with his emotions.

Originally posted by 2long:
smh:

Once you and the OM had crossed the line at the start of your A, you ruined any "friendship" you may have shared before that.

ok... I've never understood that. I am friends with other x-boyfriends (from before I was married), and it is not a problem (we're not good buddies, but we do talk)... so why would it be a problem with the OM? I understand that it would be very hurtful to my husband to have him around as a friend, and that is enough reason not to attempt to carry on the friendship. I have no intention of holding on to it. I don't understand why everyone says that you can't go back, though. If both people are committed to rebuilding their marriages, I truly don't understand.

Was it not clear in your NC letter that you didn't hate the OM? It should have been sufficient. His efforts 2 contact you were selfish, pure and simple.

yes, his efforts to contact me were selfish on his part. I can see that. As for the NC letter, though, it did not say anything about hating or not hating him. It was very unemotional, which I believe that it was designed to be by the Harleys. I understand the reasoning for that... except that just the day before, the last that the OM had heard from me, we were talking very intimately. Then he gets a very cut and dry letter saying basically "don't contact me". It would have sounded to me, if I were to receive a letter like that so abruptly - that the other person was very angry at me... or hated me. Maybe I'm rationalizing again? I'm really trying to look at this objectively, though. I really am.

Having said that, it is good that you told your H, the only one who's feelings you need be concerned about anyway. Yes, your H is right and your recovery has been set back. I don't know whether I'd call it "square one", but it doesn't matter how I feel. It matters how you and he feel. (it also doesn't matter worth a hill of beans what the OM feels).

Focus on the progress with your H that you HAVE been making. That's where recovery lies.

Yes - that's what I plan on focusing on from now on - the progress that my marriage has and is making. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you...

SMH

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> why did I care? I cared because I care about him. I wouldn't like to think that someone hated me... especially someone that I care about. <hr /></blockquote>My first thought was "present tense"...care not cared. Then I looked to see when your DD was..so it became a little clearer. I think that if my S was willing to stay with me through this I wouldn't give a rat's behind about whether the person that helped me destroy a marriage, no make that two, my H's reality, and myself (read you) hated me or thought that I hated them.

This I think is the harshest I have ever gotten, maybe you caught me on a good day...Look I've been through this several times with contact bc one or both were worried about what the other thought, in the end SMH who do you want to hurt? My FWH actually became more and more angry with contact bc it HURT HIS WIFE, your OP does not have you, his wife, or truly even his concept of his selfworth at heart, he is still in A land and taking all he can from the R.

How are you going to prove to your H that you believe in NC?

REspectfully,
AG
Editted to respond to

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If both people are committed to rebuilding their marriages.... <hr /></blockquote>It is called respect

[ January 21, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: A_Grace ]

Hi SMH,

I read all the posts and somewhat understand your delimma and empathy for OM as a human being, although I don't agree with your actions.

I'm wondering when your feelings will stop dictating to you to contact the OM whenever OM sends you his withdrawal experiences.

What about the next time he contacts you and says he "REALLY" needs to talk to you because he's hurting so bad, or when he says something like "you are the only one who REALLY understands me", or if a crisis arises and he feels you're the only one that can support him.

Is this fair to your husband, or your marriage? You did good by telling your husband of the recent contact, that's a very good sign. Please try to understand that every time you contact OM your husband feels the incredible hurt of the affair all over again, regardless of what he demonstrates to you, it's there.

Sending you continued strength.

Lv,
Jo

[ January 21, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Silverthorn-
no, I didn't expect a pat on the back... I just needed to share.

Instead of protecting your H from further pain, you choose to break NC by listening to a message from the OM, and then choose to respond to that message. What makes you think it isn't a setback.

I can't argue with you about my H's pain... somehow I guess I didn't think of that, though. I was being selfish. I admit it. I didn't see it at that time.

The OM is married, does his wife know of the A? Or even know of the phone call.

yes, she does know about the A, and the phone call. He actually asked if I would talk to her if she called me... we used to be friends, and she appears to be willing to attempt a return to friendship.

Good now you have some concern lifted off your shoulders, and your H now knows that you really don't believe in NC, nor will you keep your word. Your call lets him know that the A can restart. And, if the OM does call again, and he will I don't have any doubt on that one what will you do. What will be the excuse next time.

I hope that you are wrong, and that the OM will not call again. I suppose that time will tell on that one.
As for my husband knowing that I don't believe in NC, etc... wow... I really must be in a self-centered fog or something. I was thinking that when it was said that contact with the OM puts the recovery back to the beginning, that it was just talking about me and my withdrawal... I guess it would affect his recovery as well - possibly more than mine! I seem to be missing some important parts of this whole process.

What does that really say. It tells me he doesn't respect you but only used you. And, that he is quite willing to use you again. This contact should make you mad, not relieved. The OM wasn't thinking about you, only himself, he is still in the meeting of HIS selfish needs. Time to wake up, your being played.

I was not used any more than I was using him. I cannot be angry at him for that. OM and I made our mistakes together. No, neither one of us deserves a medal for what we've done. I cannot blame him, though. I was a willing participant.

Thank you for your candor... you've given me quite a bit to think about...
SMH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Uphill:


I will add the following warning: your H may well have decided that your actions vis-a-vis placing the OM's emotional well-being ahead of his are a clear sign where your heart truly is - in spite of what your mouth may say. I wouldn't be surprised if he mentally checks out now.

Hopefully it won't be a permanent thing, but it will be up to you to DEMONSTRATE there is no wavering on your part. Otherwise, you will find yourself on a slide. He will become more distant and everything you do will simply prove the case "See? She doesn't give a damn about me."

Finally, I got tired of it. I checked out, first mentally then physically. I figured that my W really didn't give a damn about me. Not me the father or our kids or the primary income earner, but me as a person.

I saw then I that not only did I not have her love; I didn't have her respect.

So, be careful what your actions say. Be careful how you minimize or invalidate your husband's concerns. If he is silent, it could because he feels he truly can't be open to you with his emotions. <hr /></blockquote>wow... thank you, uphill.

I will watch out for that. I think that his silence this morning was mainly because he was trying not to yell or anything... but I'll keep that in mind. I'm realizing from the responses to my post that I may have really crushed him this morning. I didn't mean for that to be the result. I guess I should have come here to the forums BEFORE calling OM.
thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience,
SMH

My FWH actually became more and more angry with contact bc it HURT HIS WIFE
How are you going to prove to your H that you believe in NC?

*nods* I should have thought of that. Unfortunately, I didn't... so now I will have to do my best to pick up the pieces of the new mess that I've made. *sigh*

I don't understand what you meant by this, though?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If both people are committed to rebuilding their marriages.... <hr /></blockquote>It is called respect [/QB][/QUOTE]

are you speaking of respect for my H? or respect between OM and I?

thank you for your honesty.
SMH

[ January 21, 2004, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: so much hurt ]

For what it's worth, I would give anything if my wife would call the OM and put a resolution to her affair. Instead, she is having lunch with him right now. Says it's a "job interview"...

2 years ago I had an affair on her, and although I have steered clear of the OW I am not too sure there was ever any real resolution between us ending it. I think our last communication was "we know what we have done is wrong, and we've learned from it, but maybe sometime we might forget what we've learned"

But since then I have come to realize that I'll never cheat again. I would call her and say NEVER AGAIN, but at this point it's kind of ancient history.

I think it is good to have that resolution, so even though I am not aware of your situation I applaud your honesty and willingness to end it.

[ January 21, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]

[ January 21, 2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]

SMH,

Well you almost got it right. Your honesty in telling your H that you called and why is critically important.

What could you have done to make this better. Called your H BEFORE you called OM back so that you could apply POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) to your decision. By this you would have taken your H's feelings into consideration. The way you handled it instead is just a continuation of the selfishness required to support an affair.

You've inflicted more pain on an already wounded husband. It sounds like you understand that he's going to need to recover further from this additional betrayal.

In my case the night my husband told me about his affair; when I asked him her name - before he would tell me, he got up, left the room and called her on her cell phone to let her know he was telling me her name.

It felt at the time and in reality it was - an additional betrayal where he put OW ahead of me. You see his "integrity" made him keep his word to her that he would call her first if her name became an issue.

Almost 2-years post d-day my H "gets it" now. I hope you will too. Blessings, CSue

smh:

"ok... I've never understood that. I am friends with other x-boyfriends (from before I was married), and it is not a problem (we're not good buddies, but we do talk)... so why would it be a problem with the OM?"

Very simple answer: Your x-boyfriends were NOT your BFs WHILE you were M'd 2 your H! Your R with your OM was based on lies and deceit. It was an illicit A, no more, no less. The OM will forever be a "threat" 2 your M, whereas your xBFs may not be, so long as you don't hide anything about them from your H.

"I don't understand why everyone says that you can't go back, though. If both people are committed to rebuilding their marriages, I truly don't understand."

In very rare cases I'm aware of, all parties affected by an A have sat down and thrashed it all out, put all the cards on the table, and remained friends. I suggested this 2 my FWW many months ago, as an alternative 2 NC. But in my case, RM was not a friend of mine before the A. He was/is lower than a nobody 2 me, so NC is the only viable path - just as it is in 99.999999% of all As.

-2long

Thank goodness you responded, I was thinking I might have scared you off. I think you telling your H was extremely important and made the best of a 'bad call' on your part.

You were asking in a previous response why it was not possible to be friends if both are committed to rebuilding. My answer was Respect - as in it being a matter of respect for your Ss, and for yourselves. I think it is very common for WS to want to go back to being friends, but truth be told, were you being a friend when you asked MM to begin lying, decieving not only his family, but himself and YOU? That is what your actions did ask him to do. That is not what the spirit of friendship is all about. Your friendship ended when you crossed the 'line'. SMH, every word after 'truth be told' are my H's. About 2 months after DD2 and on the eve of my baby's birth he saw the true nature of an A (heck, over a year later HE still has to tell me to stop romanticing it, and explain, yet again, the falicy that an EMR is. SMH a relationship where you are asked to lie and deceive is not true loving one.

You are still 'new' at this I just don't want you to stumble bc it not only hurts your H's (a feeling I know too well), but it will also further undermine your feelings about yourself (something I have seen and heard in my H's sobs). There is no closure SMH and each time there is contact of any sort there are no winners.

AG

[ January 21, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: A_Grace ]

-nut-
thank you.
I'm sorry to hear that your wife is not ready to let go of the OM... it will hopefully be just a matter of time.
SMH

CSue-

Well you almost got it right. Your honesty in telling your H that you called and why is critically important.

What could you have done to make this better. Called your H BEFORE you called OM back so that you could apply POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) to your decision. By this you would have taken your H's feelings into consideration. The way you handled it instead is just a continuation of the selfishness required to support an affair.

You've inflicted more pain on an already wounded husband. It sounds like you understand that he's going to need to recover further from this additional betrayal.

yes, I definitely should have called my H first. I was being selfish, and wanting my own way. I am certain that he would not have wanted me to call OM.
I never realized how selfish I was till all of this started. *sigh*

thank you for the support <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
SMH

Your x-boyfriends were NOT your BFs WHILE you were M'd 2 your H! Your R with your OM was based on lies and deceit. It was an illicit A, no more, no less. The OM will forever be a "threat" 2 your M, whereas your xBFs may not be, so long as you don't hide anything about them from your H.

thank you. I can understand that.

In very rare cases I'm aware of, all parties affected by an A have sat down and thrashed it all out, put all the cards on the table, and remained friends.

I guess somewhere inside I've hoped to be that rare case. I don't see it really happening, though. I think that OM's wife might be up for it - but I don't see my H going along with anything like that. In fact, I wouldn't even suggest it to him. I can already see the look on his face if I were to mention something like that. I'll just work with my H on us, and let THEM work on themselves.

SMH

AG-

You were asking in a previous response why it was not possible to be friends if both are committed to rebuilding. My answer was Respect - as in it being a matter of respect for your Ss, and for yourselves. I think it is very common for WS to want to go back to being friends, but truth be told, were you being a friend when you asked MM to begin lying, decieving not only his family, but himself and YOU? That is what your actions did ask him to do. That is not what the spirit of friendship is all about. Your friendship ended when you crossed the 'line'.
A relationship where you are asked to lie and deceive is not true loving one.

True... I've never thought of it in those terms. I guess that the lying and deceiving was such a part of my life by that time that I didn't even realize what a twisted relationship it was. Of course, I would probably tell my daughter that same thing if I found her in a relationship like that... it just always seems different when I'm talking to myself!
Thank you for clarifying what you had said earlier. I'm really glad that you did. It makes alot of sense!
They told me that this wouldn't be easy... but this is downright exhausting! Thanks for being here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
SMH

Hi So much Hurt

Telling your H about the call was a good thing. As for being friends with the OM W, that to is impossible. NC is with both of them. They are no longer any concern for your. Reread your NC letter and apply it as if they sent it to you. If he is serious about redeeming his M then he should have sent you an NC letter. If you were the BS would you even consider being friends again with the OW? Somethings very wrong with their M or what with what he is saying.

Yes, you used each other, but his lack of respect for your NC letter speaks a lot for him. It shows that he really doesn't care for you, only himself.

You do show a loving and caring heart. That is to your credit, but it can also be your worst stumbling block. Look at you H, and know how much he Loves you, that despite the indescribleable pain he is feeling he still chooses to Love.

I do think that you do Love your H. I do know your H loves you. I can tell you he is worried, concerned, afraid, in pain, and angry. That is something to think about.

Of cousre Hind sight is 20/20. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Time to put in some extra effort on meeting your H's EN's.

Time, Patience and Love. (I think I type this to remind myself as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

dumb newbie question:

NC is not in the list of abbreviations. What is an NC or an NC letter?

Thanks,
Dying_in_Dallas

NC is "no contact"

there are NO dumb newbie questiona! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Silverthorn-

As for being friends with the OM W, that to is impossible. NC is with both of them. They are no longer any concern for your.

I've never thought of the NC as referring to her... but I guess that it only makes sense. She hasn't done anything wrong, though... I feel so badly about ruining our friendship in this process. It's difficult to think about telling her "no" if she were to try to repair our friendship.

If he is serious about redeeming his M then he should have sent you an NC letter. If you were the BS would you even consider being friends again with the OW? Somethings very wrong with their M or what with what he is saying.

yes, there are many things wrong with their marriage. He (obviously by his contacting me) doesn't quite comprehend the need for NC. He has, however, agreed to it because I asked for it. I don't know if I would consider being friends with the OMW if I were the BS... but with going through this, I think that I might have more of a heart to forgive and be her friend if I felt and saw signs that she were sincere.

Yes, you used each other, but his lack of respect for your NC letter speaks a lot for him. It shows that he really doesn't care for you, only himself.

true... I suppose that WAS disrespectful.

You do show a loving and caring heart. That is to your credit, but it can also be your worst stumbling block. Look at you H, and know how much he Loves you, that despite the indescribleable pain he is feeling he still chooses to Love.

thank you, and yes... my "sensitivity" can be a major stumbling block for me. It has gotten me into trouble in the past... and it appears to have gotten me into more trouble today. *sigh*
I do need to look more at my H's love for me... I wanted him to show it to me in ways that I could comprehend for so long... and now he is showing it to me in the midst of all of this. It's really difficult for me to comprehend sometimes. Maybe that's part of why I can't seem to accept it fully... because I can't understand it?

I do think that you do Love your H. I do know your H loves you. I can tell you he is worried, concerned, afraid, in pain, and angry. That is something to think about.
Of cousre Hind sight is 20/20. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Time to put in some extra effort on meeting your H's EN's.

yes, it is something to think about. That is what I need to be focusing my attention on. Our love, and meeting his EN's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As much as I don't really like being told that I'm wrong... I really do appreciate your sharing your wisdom and experience with me. I feel like my eyes are a bit more open now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

SMH

D in D-

I agree with Pepperband. There are no dumb questions!
An NC letter is a "no contact letter" which the WS hopefully writes together with the BS to send to the OM or OW, stating that their relationship was wrong, and asking that they not contact them anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Welcome!
SMH

[ January 21, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: so much hurt ]

Somuchhurt, you have similar thoughts as my W. Why are you so worried about what the OM thinks? Is it you still love him? or is it you don't want anyone to be mad at you? sort of just out of kindness? Why?

SMH, no matter what you may believe right now, you are still in a fog. The OM W will never want to be friends with you, EVER. You slept with her H!!!!If her friendship was important to you, you would have considered it before the A.

If the OM was really your friend, he would have not had engaged in an A while the two of you had other spouses. Concentrate on falling out of lust with him and back in love with your husband.

I hope you are able to keep moving forward in your recovery, good luck!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So I called him. I have been concerned about him thinking that I hated him ever since writing the NC letter... I've told my H that I was concerned about that. So when he asked that exact question... I felt like I had to call him <hr /></blockquote>Too much concern about the OM's feelings is the problem in the first place. While you are giving all this concern to the OM, you are re-establishing contact and running roughshod over your husband's feelings.

You do not have to call him. The point is that an affair is addictive and you will be looking for reasons to talk to him to get a 'fix' as you go through withdrawal.

Have you told your husband about this contact?

Whether or not the OM's wife would ever want to be friends with you (which I find rating up there with h*ll freezing over in the likelihood category), you cannot have anything to do with any of his family, friends, etc. You need to be out of his life completely.

Your reasoning narrows down to basically somehow having him a part of your life. No now. No tomorrow. No next week. No next year. I think you get the picture.

This isn't only for you. It is for your husband, respect for his healing, and it is the only way you will ever again establish any type of trust in your marriage. Your H has no reason to trust you while you are in any type of contact with OM or his immediate family - and should not trust you if you are.

[ January 21, 2004, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

Hi 'So much hurt'.
I have been reading your thread all day and decided to write you.

My husband was unfaithful to me YET I am not going to rake you over the coals for your phone call to the OM.

Many here compare affairs to drug addictions.
There are two ways to get off drugs: cold turkey and gradually.

For my husband to have an affair, it had to be because he cared very much for this other lady.
During the recovery, I gave him all the love I could (and forgiveness) and he returned the love with a repentant heart HOWEVER he still missed and worried about HER!

Several times during those first few months I actually encouraged him to call or e-mail her, in my presense!
I was critised here at the MB by many, for doing it this way but it worked for us.
Many here have mates that are actually still seeing the OP, this was far better and done IN THE LIGHT not in secret.

I found if I DEMANDED 'No Contact' he would just withdraw and go into a depression and build up an obsession in his mind. The contact helped!

I KNOW this is NOT MB rules but it worked for us.
We are VERY happy, our marriage has healed and thrived!

The OW is now married (she was single and she is the one that stopped the affair) and is expecting her first baby.
All of our lives have moved on!

So dear sweet 'So much hurt', please stop kicking yourself. You did not do such a TERRIBLE thing calling the OM after he called to ask if you hated him.
Human kindness is what you did, no matter what you are being told here.
I hope you have an understanding husband just as I was understanding with my husband.

You sure did the right thing to tell your husband that you called and to not keep it a secret from him.

It did NOT put you back to square one in your recovery, maybe it will actually get you further along the recovery road in your marriage, then if you had not called and had let it build up in your mind.
I truly believe you have made it clear to him now not to contact you anymore; you had good closure!

Now you can LET HIM GO and move forward with your life and build a safe and happy marriage.
Sincerely, Julie

SMH,

You said something that I would like to bring back up and have you reflect on. You said <blockquote>quote:<hr /> perhaps if you can see it from you husbands point of view...
to crawl inside of him and feel the beating of his heart....so to say...
you will be able to help your husband heal...and not be so concerned with the OM's healing process....

*nods* I need to concentrate on my H now. You are exactly right. I feel like I have some closure now... so I THINK and I HOPE that it will be easier for me to move forward... and leave behind those things in the past. <hr /></blockquote>Has it occured to you that your H is the one that needs closure? And you just opened up the whole thing again. Whatever closure he was starting to get, just went out the window. You see NC is for your H as well. It provides "closure" for him to start to heal and hopefully forgive.

You also mentioned that you cannot comprehend your H's love or feel how he shows it. First, part of that is the "fog" that comes from rationalizing what you have done. The other part is you NOT/NEVER recognizing your H for who he is. Until you do, you will not understand how he shows love, why he does it this way, and why it is important for YOU to see that he is. In short, this life is not BURGER KING, you don't always get it your way, but you do often get it, IF you will simply look.

Someday, ask your H what he wanted in a marriage. It may open your eyes. My guess? He wants what most men want, yup sex, but much more. He wanted safety. He wanted to come home and KNOW that home was safe for him. It no longer is.

He probably wanted to be able to look back and realize that giving his effort, his fidelity, his love was a smart thing to do, and a good thing. What he feels now is like a prize fool. His marriage will NEVER be one of fidelity and he knows it. How will he handle that, it is a quandary he is trying to address even as we speak.

He wanted to be respected and loved even with his faults. Your actions showed that was not the case, including you calling OM without having discussed with him. He now knows that your love and behavior as a W is very conditional, and will fear that if he ever fails again, then you will do the same thing: there goes that safety thing again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He probably feels like he completely failed, and very very impotent right now. You chose OM over him.

SMH, you need to start to consider what your H is dealing with, not just with OM, but with YOU. All of your words don't mean much, and your actions continue to show that you are selfish and he was a fool.

The issue is when will your actions and your words, match the image of a W? They are not so far. I know what you say, but then I read your thought processes and they are about you, and when they are not they are about OM. Don't think your H doesn't see? You are very foolish to think he doesn't.

To some extent this is part of withdrawal, but it is an extremely painful time for the BS, AND it is a time when BS's often just leave. You focusing on your OM, and how he feels, and how you feel about him is pretty short sighted. The man you may lose is your H. OM can be had for a phone call. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please think about this. It is time for a perspective change.

God Bless,

JL

Blessed time with all due respect...
you said...

Many here compare affairs to drug addictions.
There are two ways to get off drugs: cold turkey and gradually.

Can't imagine any drug rehab encouraging or advocating gradual withdrawl from drugs to beat an addiction...
one minute
one hour
one day at a time....

with drugs it is all or nothing...
using is using...regardless of amount consumed...

and there is also a big difference between poja-ing contact...and making contact without your spouses knowledge or consent....

Also BS don't demand no contact...
demands don't work..they set their boundary...and those professing wanting to work on the marriage decide alone...

each chooses their own path...

so much hurt has been offered glimpses of what effects her actions may have on her spouse....
none was offered in malace...

posters here wish only peace for her and her husband...
they also speak from their hearts and with human kindness.......

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wokeup:
 Somuchhurt, you have similar thoughts as my W. Why are you so worried about what the OM thinks? Is it you still love him? or is it you don't want anyone to be mad at you? sort of just out of kindness? Why? <hr /></blockquote>wokeup-

well, of course I can't speak for your wife - but for me, I guess it's a bit of all of the above. I DO still feel that I love OM to some degree. I also, however, have always hated to have people mad at me. I do what I can to make peace. Even if he were someone that I didn't know, I would not want him to think that I hated him, though. It is just not a good feeling to think that someone hates you... and if I can keep someone from feeling that way, I do my best to save them from that pain.
I now realize, of course, that I helped OM to feel better by sacrificing my H's feelings... and that was the wrong thing to do. H and I talked last night... about this and about a lot of things. It was good.
SMH

If her friendship was important to you, you would have considered it before the A.

I understand what you're saying, Nita - I do... and I should have considered her feelings. Just to set things straight, though - she was not my friend before the affair. We became friends DURING the affair. I know... very weird and twisted... but that's the way that it happened.

Concentrate on falling out of lust with him and back in love with your husband.

Exactly. That is what I am concentrating on now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope you are able to keep moving forward in your recovery, good luck!

thanks, nita!

SMH

Takola -

Too much concern about the OM's feelings is the problem in the first place. While you are giving all this concern to the OM, you are re-establishing contact and running roughshod over your husband's feelings.

*nods* I know that now...

You do not have to call him. The point is that an affair is addictive and you will be looking for reasons to talk to him to get a 'fix' as you go through withdrawal.

I know THAT now, too... unfortunately.

Have you told your husband about this contact?

yes, I did - I told him afterwards. I should have told him before... but that didn't occur to me at the time.

Your reasoning narrows down to basically somehow having him a part of your life. No now. No tomorrow. No next week. No next year. I think you get the picture.

*nods* I hate to admit it, but everyone has been right all along. I find myself wanting terribly to call him today again. I really did think that that call yesterday would make things better. It didn't. Now I don't worry about if he thinks I hate him... I just want to hear his voice and the way that it makes me feel again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This isn't only for you. It is for your husband, respect for his healing, and it is the only way you will ever again establish any type of trust in your marriage. Your H has no reason to trust you while you are in any type of contact with OM or his immediate family - and should not trust you if you are.

I'm starting to wonder if I will ever be able to trust myself again. *sigh*

SMH

SMH

You have got some excellent advice from people here. I will not add anymore to what you did, why and the consequences of it.

What I will say though is I applaud your ability to listen and take on board what everyone has said to you. That is the key. You have addressed why you did it, and the potential consequences of that. We can all slip at times. I think you just didn't really think it through, but I am glad you are clearly learning from what you did.

It takes time, it truly does. Your feelings for OM and the kind of person you are won't change overnight. They way that you reacted was because, as you say, you wouldn't like anyone to think you hate them. Of course it was silly to think of OM above your H, but what I am glad to see here is you have truly thought it through and I don't think you will do that again or anything else impulsive without thinking through the consquences of your actions towards your H.

I am happy you two managed to talk well last night. You will need to give him loads of extra reassurance right now.

Take care and wishing you well from London.
Lisa

Just wanted to say "good for you". Not for contacting OM. But, for posting what you had done, and then listening to these posters and trying to see it in a new light!
You are very brave!

Julie (blessed)-
thank you so much for your kind reply. I really did have hopes that I could let go of the OM gradually as your husband did. I really did think that I could do it. There are at least 2 reasons that I have come to see why I can't do that, though. *sigh*
1. My husband would be devastated. After reading everyone's thoughts here, and then talking to him last night... I realized that in my husband's mind, every time that I talk to the OM - I am putting the OM first. It is like I am starting it all over again, no matter what my "motives" are. I think that a gradual release can only work if BOTH spouses are willing and able to go that route.
2. I wanted to call the OM more this morning than I have since I sent the NC letter. I thought that I would feel better after calling him yesterday... and I did for the day. Now today, I am battling the withdrawal all over again!! I want to call him desperately, just to hear his voice. *sigh* I really DO need to get him out of my life... out of my system... for good.
I appreciate your kindness, and your sharing your experience! I am so happy to hear that you and your husband have been able to work through your problems together! :-)
SMH

Hi SMH

Glad to hear that you and your H talked. Communication is very important. Always be open and honest, and yep, he needs to be open and honest with you.

When your having desires to call the OM, call your H instead, or post here, but really give you H the first shot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I comforted Poe when she was still in the fog. Yes it does hurt, but I was also glad to help. I'm sure your H would feel the same. Seek him out when your down, or when your thinking of the OM, seek out his comfort. And, if he is down, hug him also. You know when he is down. (Of course a hug just because you want one is always good) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Poe and I also didn't know how to show our love for each other. Now she knows that I Love her, and I know she Loves me. Its good that you can see your H's Love now.

It does take time to heal, and it can't be rushed.

Are you and your H going to MC? It could help if you find one that believes in saving M's.

You are doing very good, and you are stronger then you think you are.

You'll be in our prayers

Silver

Has it occured to you that your H is the one that needs closure? And you just opened up the whole thing again. Whatever closure he was starting to get, just went out the window. You see NC is for your H as well. It provides "closure" for him to start to heal and hopefully forgive.

wow... nope, I have to admit that I hadn't thought of that. I was so busy thinking of myself (and OM) again, that it didn't occur to me that the NC was for H, too.

The other part is you NOT/NEVER recognizing your H for who he is. Until you do, you will not understand how he shows love, why he does it this way, and why it is important for YOU to see that he is. In short, this life is not BURGER KING, you don't always get it your way, but you do often get it, IF you will simply look.

*stomps foot* But I want it MY way!!!

sorry... just kidding... I know you're right. I've always looked at it that if he loved me, he would find out how I needed to be loved or shown love, and love me that way... but I also need to learn to recognize who HE is and that he's probably been showing me love all along.

Someday, ask your H what he wanted in a marriage. It may open your eyes. My guess? He wants what most men want, yup sex, but much more. He wanted safety. He wanted to come home and KNOW that home was safe for him. It no longer is.
He probably wanted to be able to look back and realize that giving his effort, his fidelity, his love was a smart thing to do, and a good thing. What he feels now is like a prize fool. His marriage will NEVER be one of fidelity and he knows it.
He wanted to be respected and loved even with his faults. Your actions showed that was not the case, including you calling OM without having discussed with him. He now knows that your love and behavior as a W is very conditional, and will fear that if he ever fails again, then you will do the same thing: there goes that safety thing again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
He probably feels like he completely failed, and very very impotent right now. You chose OM over him.

*nods* He has said that he feels like he's walking on eggshells, and he is afraid to get me angry. I admit that at first, the obnoxious attitude of "now I can make him do whatever I want!" passed through my mind... but more recently (even before I called OM) I've realized how sad that is and how difficult it must be for him.

You need to start to consider what your H is dealing with, not just with OM, but with YOU. All of your words don't mean much, and your actions continue to show that you are selfish and he was a fool.

I'm slowly starting to see what he must be thinking. He tries to tell me - but he doesn't have a long history of sharing these things, so he doesn't always express it well. Reading the posts here are helping.

The issue is when will your actions and your words, match the image of a W? They are not so far. I know what you say, but then I read your thought processes and they are about you, and when they are not they are about OM. Don't think your H doesn't see? You are very foolish to think he doesn't.
To some extent this is part of withdrawal, but it is an extremely painful time for the BS, AND it is a time when BS's often just leave. You focusing on your OM, and how he feels, and how you feel about him is pretty short sighted. The man you may lose is your H. OM can be had for a phone call. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Please think about this. It is time for a perspective change.

Yes, JL, it definitely is time for a perspective change. I've been good in the past at putting myself in other people's shoes... but somehow I've forgotten how to (or just not bothered to, maybe?) do that with my H.

I appreciate your insights,
SMH

Lisa-

Thank you.
I am so grateful for the thoughts and experience that have been shared with me by the people here. There was a time when I would have considered it harsh. Now I realize that I needed someone to be honest and tell me exactly what was going on.
Thank you so much for your encouragement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SMH

thanks for the insight. But i can add, that the most hurt comes from not being honest. If you do nothing else, always be upfront with your H. It will deposit loads of love units. Even if he don't agree with what you are saying or even doing, being honest about it is so so important. Its the sneeky behind the back that really rips at the heart. good luck.

I have to throw my two cents in here.

I agree 100% with what wokeup wrote, be honest even if you know he will not be happy with it. Your hubby is going through some major stuff right now. More then I think you realize. I know this is no picnic for you either, but I do not think you really get what he is going through. You are BOTH busted up better then two cars in a head on collision on a hiway. Or better put, you were driving a Mac Truck and he was driving a Corola. You both have damage, but one has more to repair then the other.

All is not lost as the damage can with time be repaired.

One of his major repair jobs is trust and it is a big one. You have the only tool to help him with this repair, and that is the honesty tool. Give it to him always and you will be one step closer.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say the OM calls you one day, just to say hi. He says "hi" you say "hi" and that is it. You say to yourself, things have been great at home, why should I ruin it by bringing this up? I will just keep it a secret and no harm done.

Well, now you are starting to lie again. Slippery slope, one can easily lead to another. You can no longer say to yourself post D-Day that you have been honest with your H, and that can not feel good to you, and it is not good for your M. What if, he finds out, what if the OM tells his W, your old friend about it and she tells your H. The conversation was not big deal, but nonetheless you have just dropped his Corola off of a cliff, and maybe it can no longer be repaired.

If you tell him, it will be a set back, but he can then say to himself, at least she told me and that means alot. One step back, two steps forward.

My FWW had the same problems with withdrawal that you have now. She had to call him, and explain stuff. She asked me if she could, and I could not deny her. I hated it, and it was definately a set back for me, but she was straight forward with me and that showed something.

The OM sent her a few love e-mails and my W forwarded them to me, only because she said she would. Again did not like it, and wanted to rip his head off, but she was honest with me, and that did alot for us. She put us above them, and that was huge. Did not see it right away, but did and my little car was that much closer to being repaired.

I write all this only because you are still in withdrawal.

So much hurt, you made a mistake, but it seems to me that you are trying really hard to deal with it, and I get the strong impression that your H is doing the same.

PTM-

I have to throw my two cents in here.

believe me - it's worth much more than 2 cents! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

be honest even if you know he will not be happy with it.

that is sooooo difficult! I'm finding that it's a good thing, though... you're right.

Your hubby is going through some major stuff right now. More then I think you realize. I know this is no picnic for you either, but I do not think you really get what he is going through.

I know that you are right. I'm sure that I don't understand what he's really going through. He's been opening up more and more with his thoughts and feelings... and the intensity is something that I've never heard from him before.

You are BOTH busted up better then two cars in a head on collision on a hiway. Or better put, you were driving a Mac Truck and he was driving a Corola. You both have damage, but one has more to repair then the other.
One of his major repair jobs is trust and it is a big one. You have the only tool to help him with this repair, and that is the honesty tool. Give it to him always and you will be one step closer.

I like that visual. thank you.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say the OM calls you one day, just to say hi. He says "hi" you say "hi" and that is it. You say to yourself, things have been great at home, why should I ruin it by bringing this up? I will just keep it a secret and no harm done.
Well, now you are starting to lie again. Slippery slope, one can easily lead to another. You can no longer say to yourself post D-Day that you have been honest with your H, and that can not feel good to you, and it is not good for your M. What if, he finds out, what if the OM tells his W, your old friend about it and she tells your H. The conversation was not big deal, but nonetheless you have just dropped his Corola off of a cliff, and maybe it can no longer be repaired.
If you tell him, it will be a set back, but he can then say to himself, at least she told me and that means alot. One step back, two steps forward.

*nods* I had to face that dilemma a few days after the NC letter (we didn't talk, but he tried to call my cell phone)... and it took me 24 hrs to tell my H, I must admit. I thought that I could just keep it to myself. I finally realized that I couldn't, though... it was eating me up inside. I needed to be totally honest. I have to give my H lots of credit - he has become very good at not reacting instantly to things like that. He might not always like what I have to say, but he is learning to stop and think and not "fly off the handle" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> as they say.

My FWW had the same problems with withdrawal that you have now. She had to call him, and explain stuff. She asked me if she could, and I could not deny her. I hated it, and it was definately a set back for me, but she was straight forward with me and that showed something.
The OM sent her a few love e-mails and my W forwarded them to me, only because she said she would. Again did not like it, and wanted to rip his head off, but she was honest with me, and that did alot for us. She put us above them, and that was huge. Did not see it right away, but did and my little car was that much closer to being repaired.

thank you for sharing that.

you made a mistake, but it seems to me that you are trying really hard to deal with it, and I get the strong impression that your H is doing the same.

*nods* We are both trying. My H has been trying harder than I have up to this point, I can see that now. I am fixing that, though... I am trying harder... thinking about the things that you and others have shown me... and most importantly, thinking more about my H. What I can do for him... finding out what he's going through and doing what I can to help.

Thank you for sharing your experience and your wisdom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SMH

SMH:

" My H has been trying harder than I have up to this point, I can see that now..."

You see that, good! Act Now!

My WW didn't see that, and eventually our recovery stalled. On New Year's I told her I was leaving, and I am searching for an appt I can afford. I plan to be out of here in Feb.

In all honesty, I am pissed and disappointed. My W's A hurt me deeply, yet she really did nothing to make up to me. I did all of the changes, especially after D-Day. At first I felt that I was the lousy H and I "drove" my W to an A. It was all my fault, my failings, and I was bound to improve.

But then I realized that I was unhappy in the M, too. I had plenty of unfulfilled ENs. But, I didn't go out of the M to get them filled.

I also reflected on why I didn't bring up my unhappiness. Then I recalled that I had tried, but I was met with a emotional closure and invalidation. When I said I was unhappy, I was told that either I was wrong and I didn't know what I was feeling, or that I had no right to be unhappy and therefore my unhappiness was not valid.

The emotional closure came up whenever she'd say to me, "Well what do you want me to say?" I didn't *want* her to say anything specific; only what was in her heart. Open up to me.

So, in the end, I reached the end. Maybe it's my failing, but I only had so much patience. The biggest thing was realizing that I am not getting any younger, and if I want an intimate relationship and my wife does not, I have to move on. Otherwise it is a unilateral process.

My point in this is: put the effort. Don't take it for granted that your H will have to make all the changes. Don't take his capacity to forgive as infinite.

Keep it in your mind that you wronged him; in fact I would go so far as to say you emotionally abused him. You have to make amends for that. You are obliged as the perpetrator to make this to the victim. You damaged him; it is your moral obligation to help him heal.

Listen to him. If you feel he shouldn't be thinking certain things or feeling certain emotions, say nothing. Validate his betrayal.

Last summer, our community was beset with a series of random acts of vandalism. Cars were keyed, tires slashed and a couple of rear windows smashed (mine included). The police found the culprits; they were a bunch of kids from "good" families, so one can't use the claim of neglect or abuse. The victims in fact had done absolutely nothing to these kids to warrant these acts. In fact, at youth court the kids admitted they didn't even know the people who's property they were damaging.

But what really struck me was the total lack or remorse the kids and their parents displayed. In fact, they couldn't understand why we (th victims) were so pissed. After all, no one got hurt and we all have insurance - what's the harm?

I did nothing to these kids to deserve getting my window smashed, but it cost me $250.00 (deductible), the loss of the car for 2 days, and my insurance company then boosted my rates because I live in a "risky"neighbourhood - $90.00 a year!

Of course the kids and the parents are vehemently denying they should be covering those costs. One father even said to me, "Hey, it's not my son's fault you left your under-insured car out!"

What an @sshole.

I am using this to illustrate that sometimes perpetrators are unaware of the damage they cause. Don't be like these punks (or their sociopathic parents); own up and take charge for the consequences of your actions.