Has anyone visited the TOW site? - Marriage Builders® Forums

After reading Inga's story, I went to the TOW site and read from their topics. I feel dirty. These women & men believe that they found "true love"? One women confessed to being the OW 4 times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I don't know why I even went to it - stupid I know! But they actually are coming to this site & going back to that filth & saying that we (BS) are angry & un-christian-like. They think Plan B is the best thing - gives them are WSs. Quoting Harley as a fool.

I feel like crying and I feel like a DDay has occurred. People actually enjoying being a OW. Oh why did I go there? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It's pretty shocking, isn't it? That is a sewer of humanity over there where they openly celebrate evil.

Last time I broke Plan B I was talking to WH about TOW site. I wanted him to go there to see what the OW were up to, how they sometimes purposely break up marriages while only pretending to care about the wife and kids. MY husband is a serial adulterer who always defends the OW, believes they really believed all his lies... So I wanted him to see he might be being decieved by the OW just as much as he thought he was deceiving her.

I suspect 'Inga' is Gina, my WH's current OW.

[ June 04, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

BB2, you have God on your side and us as well. prayers to you and God bless, RR

Am I allowed to say that as a FWW I went to have a look once because I'd heard it talked about on here - NOT because I wanted to join it. It was curiosity because it always stirred up such a strong reaction from people here.

Filthy is the only way I can describe how I felt after I saw it. And not because I'm a WW but for exactly the same reasons you say Betrayed - the women on there made me feel physically ill.

Jenny

Where do I go to see the TOW site....I'd like to show my husband so he can get an idea of what the OW is still trying to do to our marriage. She's calling almost daily to his work, telling them she is someone else so they will put the call through...it's horrible.

It just makes me mad that they have this holier-than-thou attitude. I love my H so much and am devasted that he has done what he did. But I do know that if my so-called friend didn't lead him on and ostracized me at the same time, that maybe I would not be here.

My OW calls me a "creepy bit*h" - what did I do to her? These women are using foul language and belittle BSs for wanting to work on our Ms.

I can't stop crying thinking about what my OW would write- I am soooooooo sick of this carp.

LJB0801 -

The TOW site is gloryb.com - but I warn you, it is an extremely ugly site. I have tried to see all sides of an A, but these OPs think they are so perfect and right and their MM are their "soulmates". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Thanks!!!!

I believe they think they are perfect. I have talked to the OW several times and man this woman just blows my mind at some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth.

The latest, she called to let me know she was going to be in town and wanted me to let my husband meet her to watch her son ride motorcross. Talk about wacked.....she's been told numerous times to not call, no contact what so ever and she just won't go away. It's almost scarey.

Thanks again!

OMG I've just had another look.

I'm shaking. It's revolting, it's beyond words.

Jenny

Since all but Melody posting on this thread are newer posters to MB, we have in the past experienced a kind of "board war" where MBers post on TOW and are flamed & vice versa.

You can, of course, post anywhere you want I merely want to inform you of a past pattern.

Please, my friends, don't go there anymore. You are just giving your power away by even becoming a number on their "This Site has over ##### hits."

I have heard about this site since I first came to MB in February. I have no desire to see it. I already know the mindset of people justifying the unjustifyable.

Just don't go! That is your strongest fight against them. Give them no attention. No energy. No nothing!!!

SS

Point taken thanks Arch.

I can see how that would happen.

Subject closed as far as I'm concerned.

Jenny

B by II,

Yea I go over there every once in a while.
Guess I just need to remind myself just where the OP and WS are Really coming from. (I mean while they are in the A, not all the remorseful speech given here).

However, I can't stomach too much of it.
Its really tough to read how these people live and think?
Tough to stomach that my W actually thought the way these persons do.

Going to that site will really make you think twice about the whole "FOG" theory.
READ what they are doing and then tell me they are in a Fog. (Many there are Both WS as well as OP).

Any of you ever read about what they write about the good folks at this site??

They make fun of and run down MBers.
I was actually surprised about that.

I think you must have an open mind when you go there.

When i first visited it...yes it was horrible to read their stories but after the next time i find i am able to understand a little bit about their feelings. i use that understanding to fight in my own war with OW..for example believe or not...most OW do not want MM(our WS) to leave their wife(US) for them. OW wants MM to leave because their marriage is bad. Another knowledge is that OW is jealous of MM always going back to wife...this is good to know when you are doing plan A. Too bad i did not know this then perhaps i could have done a better job at plan A.

Another subject which i think all of you MUST read is the Q&A part...the Q&A is not about the site...it is regarding frequent questions that people always ask about their affair..for example does ow/m ever feel guilty about their affair? Who ends the affair and why? etc etc

I think we must learn about the OW. How to fight the enemy is we do not know anything about them? Knowledge is a weapon and we must have that advantage.

COULD SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME ADVISE??/

I went to look a while back and I was repulsed also. I read one post where someone gave an OW some advise and said "you aren't really hurting anyone, I mean not really. It isn't like you have physically hurt them. And as far as the kids, they will get over it and adapt to a new life".

I almost puked, and died. I never went back. I just can't imagine thinking that about children.

HINY

Ya know, Like I told them, if you don't like it, dont go. The bottom line is, there are a LOT of people in PAIN out there.

I defended THIS site on TOW, so turnabout is fair play. TOW has helped me tremendously. I wish the internet and THIS site was around when I was a BH. I lurk here, and gain knowledge and compassion by doing so. Im glad i found TOW when I needed it. Are there really "flakey" people there? Sure, and here too.. and everywhere, just like "real life" people. Hell Im probably one of em myself.

as Arch mentioned, "board wars" ain't good. Emotions run high, objectivity is lost. For those who want and need to see whats happening from other angles, and remain sane... I encourage board hopping, for those who are teetering on the edge, or just found out, its probably a bad idea.

I think I'll c/p my own post from there to here... since its MY post, I assume its ok, and if it isn't, feel free to delete it mods. no hard feelings.

hugs, c

"clarkie
Member
Member # 53

posted June 04, 2004 05:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually like the site. PLEASE don't stone me to death! You HAVE to understand, that if the WS chooses to reconcile and remain in the marriage, it is NOT bad advice. DOES IT SUCK [censored] for the OP? You bet your [censored] is does! THAT said, most (not all) of em will "play the game", and call you tomorrow with a big huge apologysaying he/she made me do it.

Ya know, I am getting sick and tired of this OP ONLY attitude here. YES TOW is FOR the OP ONLY, and it has been a blessing to me, for 5+ years...

but in those 5+ years, I have learned a LOT. It usually IS a TRIangle folks... there IS a BS out there, somewhere... and THEY are most likely in PAIN too. (if they know, or are confused as hell as to what the f*cks going on if they dont)

again, my apologies... but I have been the H, the BH, the OM, the B OM, the x OM, i have never been the MM or WS, and that one I can't relate to. I CAN relate to the BS, as i was that long before I was the OP, and it just plain sucks. Don't like it? Don't go there. And I feel like I have paid MY DUES to this particular site, a thousand times over, and have NO GUILT whatsoever, relating in a non PC TOW way. I just try not to be TOO judgemental, as there is no telling what HAT life will find you wearing next.

hugs, c"

My H came home, I told him that I went to the site (he knows I have been reading everything & anything to gain perspective from all sides) and told him that how sick it made me. He just hugged me and stated he believes that having an A is wrong and that he was sorry for everything. He went onto say that there are people out there that it is a way of life and I should just read from positive sites that want to rebuild.

However, that site left an awful feeling with me. I know about the children - saw quite abit about that it was good - A, Dv, etc. - sick comments from sick people. They were bashing the MB site, calling all BSs angry bit*ches, etc. What did we (the BS) do to them? Get the man first?

Clarkie -
Your post at TOW, I did read. You and I think one other person actually stated that there was more than one side to this story. I was always raised to believe more than what one person stated - there are three sides to a story - yours, mine & the truth. That's why I went to TOW - but it was a dark ride.

JMHO
BB2

BB2, "OW - Closest friend" ... NOT!

hugs, c

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by clarkie:
 BB2, "OW - Closest friend" ... NOT!

hugs, c <hr /></blockquote>Clarkie -

My Ow broke up w/ her longtime BF one month before my hell began. My brother was here visiting, she set her sites on him, he declined. He went home to my Mom, first person that walked by her, she'd pounce.

My brother went on to say that she was pathetically jealous of me, wanted my life, but the sad thing was even if WH wanted her & she got him, she still would not have my life, because she wasn't ME! So friend - I definitely would say NO WAY!

BB2

And so it has begun . . .

HE also said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Ease up a bit, people. I am a BS and go over to TOW site. I have registered and occasionally post there. I originally went there for some insight into my WW’s motives and actions, thinking that it would be like getting a look at the other side’s playbook. At times the posts are tough to read, but I have always gotten honest though often painful answers to my questions. The OW there have helped me to understand just how strong the power of the A can be.
Just like here, you will find people in and out of all A stages. Most care no more about the BS than we do for them. But most of the women (and some men) who are currently in As there are very much in love with their A partners. It’s difficult to hear, but don’t doubt it. Those who are in NC or the early stages of withdrawal struggle with it in the same way we do here. Those who post in the Endings section are hurting and trying to find a way to move on.
If there is one positive I have found on the TOW site it is that very few there would ever advise anyone to begin an A. On every occasion when someone new has posted that they are considering an A, the advice is always the same. RUN, and don’t look back.
I cannot sympathize with those at TOW. They are either our WS, or would not be there if not for our WS. Most will live to regret the decisions they have made.
23down

"If there is one positive I have found on the TOW site it is that very few there would ever advise anyone to begin an A. On every occasion when someone new has posted that they are considering an A, the advice is always the same. RUN, and don’t look back."

MANY "will regret..."

good post 23D, hugs, c

Isn't it amazing that people who often quote the Bible obviously haven't read or understand it!

When God tell us not to judge, what He's saying it not to judge people's motives. Only God knows the heart. We can judge people's actions. Why do you think He set up a judicial system. (Duh read the book of Judges)

Twisting and isolating scripture to use to one's own advantage has always been around. I continue to be shocked at how people can twist scripture to justify their behavior, but the bottom line is we'll all be accountable for our own actions when we stand before God. No excuse will work there-not childhood abuse, not emotional needs being met, or not genetics causing bad behavior. While that gives me solice it also terrifies me.

Going to TOW and trying to "educate" is a waste of time. You can't communicate with the dead-people who are dead to the truth. It's incredibly sad and I thank God that I'm not in that mess because by the grace of God, go I.

I never heard of the TOW site, but from everyones comments I don't think I even want to go there. I spent way too much time trying to understand why he lied to me.

I saw a movie once where and Amish man said that the Amish don't try to understand evil, they turn their head away from it. Because by understanding evil, you risk becoming it.

I love this site because I need to understand how people remain faithful and how they keep themselves from hurting other people. I want to relate to people who have it together and have learned what it means to be honest and strong. And also what it takes to get there.

I don't even know how I found this site, but I'm glad I did!

About a month ago I found a sent e-mail from my H to someone on the MB site. This person had recommended a site WSs could go to where they would be with like minded people who are struggling too. At the time H was heavy into withdrawal. I don't think he ever got the site address, and I now wonder if it was the site mentioned here. All I can say is I'm glad he didn't. It sounds like more justification and encouragement to just go back to the A because it's God's will. I don't think I'll be visiting this site in the future. CV

CV55 -

I truly wish I didn't! I laid awake most of last night and thought way too much about what was going thru my former friend's head. She claimed to hate my WH, claimed that he was stalking her - but why was she sleeping with him??

I will never go back - definitely no help in understanding that side of A. Just caused more damage to my ever over-analysing brain! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Okay, I've avoided it for months, but you guys made me have to check it out.

SOME of the posters bothered me, but that's common everywhere.

HOWEVER, I did find SOME help in it as well. Let me tell you why, it FUELED me, and my anger. And I can rant and rave when my FWH isn't around because we ALL need to vent, as much as we can, without LB. I didn't flame there... boy was I tempted, but I won't sink to that level.

They do alot of MB bashing over there, which I don't think is right, BUT... MB paved the way to recovery for us, so they can call it what they want, and criticize all they want. Harley saved my marriage...maybe that's why they hate him so much, because in the end, if Harley's methods DO succeed, what are they left with?

I also went to the site (could not resist!)...and honestly just felt empty. Not angry (although I am the BS)...their lives just seem very empty....kind of like mine right now.

Part of me would like to hate the OW, but I can't. I just feel sorrow, and sadness. All I really want to do is heal, and that's what is so sad about that site...there is no healing possible there (and I guess if there are lurkers from that site reading this, they will probably flame me. Fine)

cc

PUKE. BARF. BLECK!

Checked it out.

Not ever doing that again. Not worth it.

They are lost, and going there will not help them be "found."

Betrayed. I don't need to go to the dark side to know it exists. I've been living under its reign for a year now. CV

SerendipiT -

I read your post on Inga's thread - I felt the exact same way. I am sorry I posted this thread - I think I made alot of people go where they probably shouldn't. I also see some of the TOW posters here. So Arch was right.

What bothered me so much was that the TOW posters love Plan B and with me heading that way - I guess nerves got the best of me. Also, my OW called my 70 yr old mother and left a nasty call requesting "she get her ******' daughter out of California".

Love the new name, by the way Chrissy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Inspiring! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
BB2

Betrayed, I posted on the other thread (Inga) my feelings re: that site.

I did check it out. I am astonished that someone even created it and have to wonder about the values, outlooks, and mental state of the creator of the site. I also noticed the "F" word everywhere, constantly. I also thought that very few posts lacked much depth or substance. It struck me that... well, how much can you say when you are having an affair? It's like going to a prison where people have committed crimes. You don't hear lots of encouraging, positive, depthful conversation going on... except with those who have humbled themselves and seen their crimes as wrong and want to change (they've repented).

When what someone is doing is wrong, their heart is hardened and their mind is deceived... and I also think their "claws" are out and they are defensive and not in a healthy state of mind. They lack peace and they are defensive because they don't want to hear that what they are doing is wrong. That's what I sensed among alot of them on that site.

But I also felt very, very sickened to my stomach and just "gross" after reading there. There is a huge difference between a person who's had an affair and either felt bad or repented and the one who's having/had an affair and is boastful, without shame, without regret, and/or justifies it... and that was how alot of those women there seemed. To me, well, there is evil in that and after reading there, I felt like I'd been in the presence of evilness.

Anyways, I am glad that your husband responded to you like he did when you shared with him how you felt. I am sorry that you went there and pray that God will wipe the memory of it from your mind and give you an overwhelming peace of mind.

I also wanted to comment on something someone here said (can't remember the name... it had a 23 in it). They said, "If there is one positive I have found on the TOW site it is that very few there would ever advise anyone to begin an A. On every occasion when someone new has posted that they are considering an A, the advice is always the same. RUN, and don’t look back." And then someone else (I think it was "Clarkie") said that they'd mention regret.

However, from what I read... well, there is a poll there asking if they'd do it again (the affair) and the majority said "yes." I sensed very little regret at all. The only "regrets" were that many of them, in the end, didn't get their "man"... either he stayed with his wife or they broke up anyways or he had another affair. It wasn't regret expressed over hurt caused towards a wife, but hurt that they themselves were left with. I also saw very little of anyone asking advice on a possible affair. I did see though posts like one that said the man was leaving the wife and all the posters congratulated the woman. Wow... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Personally, I saw nothing positive in that site. And any heartache/regret expressed there wasn't heartache over what they'd done (the affair) but was heartache over the man not leaving his wife and regret that they'd gotten involved with a married man with the hopes he'd leave and then he didn't. The regret was 100% self-centered... all about what they lost, not over the losses that they caused by having the affair.

God bless you Betrayed and I pray that God gives you peace and comfort.

(I also highly recommend others do NOT go there).

[ June 06, 2004, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]

I went there too....and I actually feel sorry for those people! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

How could anyone live in such denial, and with such lies and call it "love"...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think a lot of parents must NOT be teaching their children morals while growing up today.....could be because of such high D statistics they don't have the "time" for raising good, decent children to be moral adults!!

It's a shame....I really pity these people who think being 2nd fiddle is somehow a "soul-mate" position!!?.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My "head image" of the OW was so reinforced by my visit there..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm wondering how my H could have lost his mind for the short per. of time that he did??? OW has got to feel soooooo USED!

TOW is not a place to go if your still struggling to get to recovery...IMO. It could very well be a good learning ground after one has been in true recovery for several months. Otherwise it may trigger you beyond belief!!!

Life in "reality" and truth is so much sweeter. No lies. No deceit!!

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My opinion only to follow....

I really think that bashing the OW site accomplishes nothing. I know that fresh after discovery I hated the OM. I understand the hurt but holding onto the fact that OP are evil scums is unrealistic. How many of us knew the OP, were friends with them or even related to them. Crap happens to all of us.

In my case I chose, by default, to not pay attention to my wife like I promised. She chose to have an affair. We have to live with the choices we make and often times with the one's others make as well. I have been to that site twice once after I discovered my wife's A and once from this thread. Later I became a WS....read the history for background.

People hurt. Just as we like to come here and vent about the OP, TOW is a place for them to vent about our spouses.

I lived through a year and a half of my W's A. I know how hard was for her to let go of the OM. I have no doubt that it hurt her immensely. I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair.

We are free to to express our opinions here and disagree with whatever we want as our they. On both sites there are those that are hurt and post with the pure emotion that they are feeling at that moment. And there are those that post to them calming them down.

I'm not defending their actions, just the fact that they can feel how they feel. I have seen some pretty outrageous behavior on this site. Just because we are on this side of the A, doesn't put us on moral highground.

just my $.01

God Bless

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
When what someone is doing is wrong, their heart is hardened and their mind is deceived... and I also think their "claws" are out and they are defensive and not in a healthy state of mind. They lack peace and they are defensive because they don't want to hear that what they are doing is wrong. That's what I sensed among alot of them on that site. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>This is exactly what I was looking for at that site. I did not go there to bash anyone. I went to seek the why? My OW was a friend, I wanted answers about why she could do this, why was she so cruel now and then. She is calling my 70 yr old mother leaving nasty messages - no one is calling her. She was like family - it hurts so much that I loved and cared for her and I felt like I meant absolutely nothing to her.

I know I have to let go of that thinking - I am nothing like that - I will never have all the answers and the only thing I can do - is learn from the past, change for the better, and move to a better place.

I have always lived my life with NO REGRETS and I intend to grow w/ what God has given me. The A happened for whatever reason and I think there are many answers that will never be enough for my whys. The A was not about me - it was about my H and his issues. What I need to do is help him find him. And just love him.

I definitely think we belong here and the OW/OM belong on their site. They do need assistance as do we. Going there did not accomplish anything. What I needed I got from MB.

Thank you all so very much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
BB2

[ June 06, 2004, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: betrayed by 2 ]

This thread is so full of pain that I don't know where to begin. So... I'll just try to get to a couple of points, and hope that y'all will fill in the blanks.

I was the OP. I know the struggle and awful feelings that go with loving someone you're not "supposed" to love.

I was the wayward one. And I am the betrayed. Not in the ways that most people here were wayward or betrayed, but that's a story for another time and place.

What I do know is that no one is free of pain -- the affair triangle is agony for everyone involved. What we call love is often just a desperately needy clinginess. What we call hate is often that desperate need turned inside out and upside down.

Compassion for the other person is, perhaps, the best thing in the world. Compassion -- combined with acceptance that the dynamics between the people in the relationships of a marriage/affair mix are incredibly painful and intense at the same time -- will allow you to see more of the truth as it really is, without judging it.

A lot of the pain on this thread has turned into disrespectful judgments of the people who post on TOW site. Because the OW might actually love your WH -- might actually believe that your kids will be okay -- might really think that your marriage is a destructive place.... is not a reason for disrespectful judgments.

Never mind that you think the OW or OM "deserves" it and that you "had" to vent. Consider, instead, your own pain and despair. That's what drives these attacks, isn't it? It's the fear, the awful sinking terror, that they might be right, that the OW really, truly believes these things and maybe they're actually right.

Maybe they are.

Does that eliminate your pain? Does it eliminte THEIR pain? Does it make things any easier on the wayward one who is caught in the most terrible of situations, where there is NO WAY to avoid hurting someone you love?

Nah. Being right really doesn't help one bit in this situation.

Finding compassion and serenity does.

So... really FEEL the pain that you may feel when reading TOW site. Really feel the pain that you may feel when reading these words. It's not going to work to rationalize that pain away. It's not going to work to attack it away. It's not even going to work to express it away (thought that's the closest to the mark). It's going to stay with you until you accept that it's there. Until you really, truly accept the pain of these moments and know that this pain isn't going to heal today or tomorrow or next year. It's always going to be here, in some form. Maybe dormant, maybe active, it's WITHIN you and no matter how far you run, it's still going to be there.

Better to sit with it and listen to it than to use it to attack other human beings.

Thumbs up to JustJ!

Perpetuating the anger just feeds the belief that they are justified in taking what they want, but know is not theirs. And not all feel that way. Better to turn your focus someplace positive - there's plenty of negative out there already.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair. <hr /></blockquote>Lets agree to disagree.
When a WS or OP calls one another THEY CHOSE to have social contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to meet they CHOSE to have contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to sleep together THEY CHOSE to be intimate without the BS knowing.
They both chose to do every action so that it could lead to the affair. JMO

You're assuming a lot about how they are thinking or feeling in that situation. I ABSOLUTELY did not 'set out' to have an A. Which is why I left my marriage - BECAUSE I found myself having feelings for someone else. The problem was that something in my gut kept pulling me back to my marriage - and the chemicals in my brain would then kick in and pull me back to feelings for OP - and back again. I did not conciously set out to do that. Nor did I conciously set out to use and hurt the OP. I didn't CHOOSE to do the wrong thing ON PURPOSE - I most definatly did make bad decisions that ended up hurting everyone. I wasn't the only one in our triangle making bad decisions.

My WH told me that he and the homewrecker DID disuss what they were about to do and did it ANYWAY despite him being married.They both had a CHOICE and made it,destruction all around.Infidelity,Adultery.

I have also visited the TOW site on a few occasions and it is a wretched display of evil justification,rationalization and denial.If anyone is hurting on that site it's because of their ACTIONS,their CHOICES.Screaming out loud or talking in a whisper for what they have done empowers me because I KNOW I am right and always will be.They are,and forever will be WRONG until they(WS) stop being selfish,hurtful persons and end the adultery.Painful? Yes, for the betrayers.Necessary? Yes.I DO take the moral high ground because of my actions and comittments.I have not broken any vows,any commandments,any promises,any rules,etc.I did not make a conscious decision to hurt a loved one like my WH did.

Do I want to be right or do I want to be married? Well,in my mind I am both right now.I may not stay married much longer but at least I know what I did and tried to save was the right thing to do.I can live with myself at the end of each day.I honestly do not know how some of those women on TOW stay in an A for years.It's mind boggling.

O

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by trying2_4give:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair. <hr /></blockquote>Lets agree to disagree.
When a WS or OP calls one another THEY CHOSE to have social contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to meet they CHOSE to have contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to sleep together THEY CHOSE to be intimate without the BS knowing.
They both chose to do every action so that it could lead to the affair. JMO <hr /></blockquote>No need to agree to disagree. Once the affair starts if they continue that is a choice. I wasn't saying there wasn't a choice to continue an affair. I was saying that in most cases that having an affair isn't the intent.

[QB] <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair. <hr /></blockquote>I do not think my wife sat at work one day and said "I'm not happy, I think I'll have an affair."

Hi Folks,

I joined the TOW site and posted there as "RESILIENT" a few years back. And as most of you know, I am a BS. They, TOW, knew me from reading here on MB and allowed me to post.

I went there at a point in my recovering from my ex-H's betrayal and subsequent divorce to understand what went on between him and his OWs.

I have to say what I learned was most the long time OWs there do not advocate or encourage the new members to continue in their affairs, on the contrary, they discourage them.

I'm posting this because I would like to advise our members here to not post on TOW. Off and on over the years we have had several board wars and once it starts it's very hard to calm things down again.

I kindly request, if you do post there please be respectful.

God Bless,
Jo

I don't really view people's "disgust" at the other site as "attacking." I also don't think it's beneficial to know that things such as "The Other Woman" site exist and to say nothing in order to "keep peace" or extend compassion to a WS.

I don't want to be the blind, deaf, and dumb monkey with his hands over eyes, ears, and mouth. That's often what we are encouraged to do when we see things we "don't like." Our negative response is minimized or dismissed with "stop judging" or "it doesn't help to attack," and we are told not to get upset, don't attack, don't judge, etc. In other words, say nothing, do nothing, and let it be. If we all did this, how would society ever change or ever improve? This was the very mentality that led to years of slavery and oppression of black people by us Americans... and other such acts.

When Hitler was killing the Jews, and America decided to not be the dumb, blind, and deaf monkey, lives were lost. It was a WAR. In my opinion, there is a similar "war" on marriage. There is in essence, a type of war being fought between a OW and a BS. The BS is fighting to keep a marriage that the OW is wanting to end. And the MM who's seeing the OW is betraying them both. There can be NO peace, NO good feelings, NO "turn the other cheek" because it is literally a type of war... a war for a marriage and a family, a war for what's right, a war for truth and integrity. All those things are compromised with infidelity. Wars are ugly and painful and they aren't fought by showing "compassion" or by saying nothing. And there WILL be casualties and contention along the way.

Anyways,I might be confused about the purpose of the OW site but I did not get the impression that it was for the healing or recovery of an OW, but more for the encouragement to continue in an affair... to "hang in there" while dating a married man. Lots of posts about, "This is so hard. He didn't call me today. I am afraid she [wife] is watching his every move." And others responding with, "Hang in there." Compassion says, "LOOK at what is going on! Open your eyes and listen to what you are saying!"

As for "feeling" their pain, like I said, I do not condemn WS's. I would offer any WS forgiveness if it was sought. I would encourage any BS to extend forgiveness. We are all sinners and all capable of very heinous sins. And bitterness can eat a person away.

However, there is something to be said about the boastfulness of a sin. The lack of shame and the lack of regret or remorse. I can't "feel the pain" of someone who has or is doing wrong and yet boasts of it or delights in it and/or has no shame and no understanding for what destruction they are causing. IF we give such a person "compassion," that person will not get out of that situation. Compassion sees the whole picture. Compassion goes far beyond just feeling pity for someone.

It's not good or healthy to be filled with anger, hate, revenge, bitterness, etc. That's not what I would recommend for anyone nor is it what I am advocating. But it's also not right or healthy to see what's going on with a WS and minimize the heinousness of it. Yes, HEINOUSNESS. We are so used to reading about affairs, hearing about affairs, etc... that I think it often loses it's "shock" and we just accept it and shake our heads not really knowing what we can do. Or we have a totally twisted mentality and think that the BS "deserved" it anyways. And we even find ourselves sympathizing with a WS. I read in some comments here an encouragement to sympathize with a WS.

The time to give a WS sympathy is AFTER they have ended an affair and have been broken by what they have done and not a minute sooner. To do so would only cheapen and twist what compassion is really all about.

[ June 06, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]

LMX, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! GREAT POST!

BB2,

I honestly cannot know the depths of your pain. I have not gone through what you have and can only imagine how it has tormented your heart and mind. In the Bible, adultery is always talked about VERY VERY harshly. It is a completely grievous and heinous sin with absolutely NO excuse whatsoever. It does not matter if the marriage is bad. That still does not justify having an affair... basically having a girlfriend and a wife at the same time. If it were okay, it'd be polygamy.

Sure, things might "drive" a person to have an affair, but EVERY person is capable of making a choice to NOT have an affair (unless perhaps they are mentally hindered in some way... perhaps are on drugs or mentally challenged and don't understand right from wrong, etc). I realize that a very bad marriage can be a very painful thing that can cause a person to become discontent and unhappy, but an affair is not the answer... and it's not even a "normal" answer. Millions of people survive bad marriages by either going to counseling or perhaps getting a divorce. Millions of people don't have affairs. Many simply don't have them for the sake of integrity, dignity, and repuation. All those things are completely lost and compromised in an affair. It's simply not worth it.

Okay, I'm getting on my "soapbox." I really just wanted to tell you that I am sorry for your pain and can't imagine how it must feel to have been betrayed by both husband and friend. You might never get the answers you desire, but I do hope and pray that your friend will one day see what she has done and will be broken over it and seek your forgiveness. I also pray that God gives you the strength to forgive and the wisdom to know how to do so and what that entails.

All you can do for now is walk uprightly in your own life. You cannot control either OW or husband, but you can make choices for the good of you and your family. One day at a time. When things are bad and feel miserable, try to remember that each day is a new day and "this too shall pass."

"I went to seek the why? My OW was a friend, I wanted answers about why she could do this."

I am an OW, and I post on TOW.

I can tell you that a visit to TOW can't give you answers about your husband's OW.

We are each completely different people who share one thing in common: a relationship with someone who is married. That's it.

I think, though, that since she was your friend, you have every right to press HER for answers.

Cecily

Just J,

That was a lovely post.

I totally see what you're saying... but I think there's a world of difference between venting anger and bitterness TOWARD people (as in, going to their site to be hurtful) and venting it ABOUT people on a site that is your place to rant and rave and deal with your pain...

TOW gives that to OWs... it's the only place many of us have.

MB (and other places) give that to BSs.

There have been times I've written on TOW, almost throwing a temper tantrum out of pain... venting...

But it's my PLACE.

I think that it's very painful and self-destructive to hold that stuff in.

Discussion boards give people in horrible situations a place to just let themselves BE nasty, sometimes... harsh, illogical, blaming...

To just BE free to be ANGRY.

From what I've seen of Plan A, there are plenty of people here who have a lot to BE angry about.

Cecily

Originally posted by Cecily:

"From what I've seen of Plan A, there are plenty of people here who have a lot to BE angry about."

What are you talking about??

Pep

[ June 06, 2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LoveMyEx:


The time to give a WS sympathy is AFTER they have ended an affair and have been broken by what they have done and not a minute sooner. To do so would only cheapen and twist what compassion is really all about. <hr /></blockquote>This is one of the most outstanding posts I have ever read on this forum. Thank you for that truthful, articulate, poignant post. I am glad you are here, LME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hear, hear, LMX.

"Did you know your lover was married when you started your affair?"

"About eighty percent of us knew that our lover was married when we got involved. The ones who did not know usually found out within the first few days or weeks. Occasionally, it went on for a few months."

From the Q&A section at TOW.

This confirms my suspicion that most OW are only pretending to believe the WH's lies, to make themselves appear innocent to the MM they are involved with. Therefore when the WH defends and feels sorry for the OW, it's not only more cruelty for the BW, it's uncalled for, IMO. Most OW know and just don't care. They have CHOSEN to indulge in adultery for their own selfish motives, they apparently decided the stolen pleasure was worth the risk of possible emotional pain later. And if they thought there would be no pain, it was because they were counting on breaking up the marriage/family to fulfill their own selfish desire. By contrast, the adultery brought no pleasure, only pain, to the BW and the children, without them having any choice in it. Under those circumstances, it's difficult for the BS and children to witness the WH expressing any concern for the OW. A more appropriate message for the WH to give his wife and children would be that he has learned how to protect himself, his wife, his marriage, his family, from such temptations in the future. Everything possible should be done to ease the emotional suffering of the betrayed spouse and the children, including acknowledging that the OP, in almost all cases, is responsible for their own choices and the consequences of those choices. I am not in any way saying the WS didn't do anything wrong too. I just don't see why anyone should ignore the obvious fact that MOST adult females are very aware that sometimes MM tell lies to get women to have affairs with them. Just because a MM tells a lie to an OW, that does not automatically translate to the OW really believing him. There are motives for the OW to pretend to believe however... PART of the WH taking responsibility for his part in the affair is to stop being naive about the ability of adult women to also be deceptive when it suits their agenda. IMO the WS has a responsibility to acknowledge all the weaknesses that led to their involvement in the affair, including being naive about the OP's supposed innocence. A WH who keeps the OW up on a pedestal has not yet learned all he needs to know to protect himself from adultery. Especially if offering sympathy, wanting to be a knight in shining armor (armour?) to a woman other than his wife, is part of how he got in trouble. The BW who needs the assurance that her WH understands that women ARE intelligent enough (but sometimes unwise enough) to be just as deceptive as men can be. The BW doesn't need to hear her husband admit this because she is being vindictive towards the OW, but because she's scared that if her WH doesn't get this he will just fall for another 'innocent' OW's act.
Plus it REALLY hurts to have the WH in any way put the feelings of the OW above those of the BW.
The WH has to make a choice, not in just who he is going to break up with and who he is going to stay with, but in who he is going to defend and honor.

[ June 07, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

I visited there today. I guess one of my posts there really had them stired up. I posted here how I thought it was sick.

[ July 11, 2004, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]

P.S. I honestly question the motives, values, worldview, and mentality of a person who creates a website in which OW can go to share their struggles in their affairs and can give suggestions and encouragement, NOT to end the affair, but to survive and get through the "hard" things (i.e. wives finding out, pregnancies, sneaking around, etc). AMAZING. Why would a person create such a site? I have read comments of some saying it's a "helpful" site and that the OW's encourage others not to get into an affair, but those people must be reading different posts than I am... because what I read where OW not feeling regret, not feeling shame, but rather wanting the comradery of other OW's so that they can "hang in there" in their affairs. How will these women ever be convicted of what they are doing unless someone says, "DO YOU NOT see what you are doing??!! STOP! Wake up! Open your eyes!" Etc. I don't see any of that on that website. None of it.

Anyone who is having an affair with a married person has hardened their heart because if they had any empathy, goodness, kindness, compassion, understanding, etc., they would NOT have that affair simply because of what it is doing to the MM's wife and children. Only a hardened heart can say, "But I love him. I know he's got a wife at home, BUT..." NO!!! No "but"! It should be "I know he's got a wife and home AND thus I am NOT going to enter into an intimate relationship, either physical or emotional, with this person."

Hardness leads to more hardness. Depravity leads to more depravity. Wallowing in a pig sty full of mud (which to me is what an OW and MM are doing in their affair) only takes your eyes off of cleanliness and makes you think, hey, this mud ain't so bad... at first I didn't think so, but I'm kinda getting used to it now and I think I look quite nice all muddy. Who cares about the mud anyways... I'm "in love!" That's love?

You lose perspective. Lose empathy. Lose a clear, sound mind. What's wrong becomes right and what's right becomes wrong. And that to me is scary because it affects all of society. It affects children, and children grow up to be adults, some of them unstable, disturbed adults because dad cheated on mom and they saw that people don't keep their promises.

People have got to stop being desensitized to things like infidelity. We've got to stop justifying, stop sympathizing with the adulterers (not until after they've stopped and been broken and repentive), stop covering our eyes, stop psychoanalyzing the reasons that these two are having the affair, and just say, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!" Be shocked, be disgusted, be appalled. Because it is shocking, disgusting, and appalling. And yah, those are very "harsh" words, but affairs are very "harsh" things.

[ July 11, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]

LME -

You are absolutely right.

I've only visited the TOW site twice in the past year. The messages that challenged adultery are there but most definitely in the minority. You have to read through a LOT of endorsement for keeping the affair going, 'support' for trying to get the MM to leave his wife and kids, and the F word tossed in here and there, before you find a message pointing out something like the betrayed wife is just trying to save her marriage so maybe she (the BW) shouldn't be treated like the enemy.

For example, there is a thread about the no contact letter that this site advises the WS to send to the OP. Posters at TOW were saying it was just cruelty to the OP if the WS sent such a letter. And they were not exactly saying it in a way that showed any respect for Steve Harley, the posters here at MB, or BS's. ALL they cared about is how no contact interferes with them getting what they wanted: to destroy a marriage and stay involved with somebody else's spouse.
There was no doubt these OW felt entitled to be involved with MM and were angry that anyone would try to encourage the MM to stop all contact with them. Only after a LOT of messages were posted, flaming Harley, MB's, BS's efforts to save their marriages, did some posters start defending us and our efforts to save our marriages.

And there's a strong undercurrent of seeing themselves as the victim (and in many cases portraying the wife as the enemy), not necessarily because their married lover lied to them and they were just too naive to realize they were being lied to... MANY of the TOW posters KNOW they are/were committing adultery and just don't/didn't care. They seek sympathy because their married lover has not yet left his wife and kids, or because he went back to them. TOW provides them with sympathy for that and for support to keep the affair going until the MM's marriage/family is destroyed.

And IMO they are pretty darn good at getting the MM to feel sorry for them. WH's need to realize that the OW do manipluate the WH's guilt in order to keep contact with the OW going.

One poster shares how she has successfully gotten the MM she had an affair with to keep agreeing to meet with her one more time... because she NEEDS him to for closure's sake. She keeps contacting him and tells him she thinks maybe if he will see her again THEN she will be able to leave him alone. Apparently the MM is feeling guilty for hurting her and hoping if he does meet her demand to meet again then maybe she will finally get enough closure to leave him alone. MOST of the posters who responded to her were congratulating her on her success at getting to see him again (and again). And they were gushing about how much enjoyment she was going to get out of being with him again. EVENTUALLY somebody posted something that challenged what she was up to.

While I would agree that it would be inappropriate for the MB posters to post something challenging or inflammatory on the TOW site. I do not agree that there is something wrong with us reading there to learn about the OW mentality and motives and then coming back here to discuss it. IMO it's very educational. It is a good thing for us to see evidence that the OW is not as innocent as they pretend to be.
IMO we not only should be allowed to discuss OW motives and tactics here at MB, we would be wise to do so. Our marriages have been attacked and the attackers do intend to destroy our marriages and families.

So what if they sometimes feel some remorse about what they are doing? If they don't feel enough remorse to STOP what they're doing, then the remorse is fake and/or ineffectual. They may as well not feel any remorse at all if it doesn't cause them to stop their wrongdoing. Ah... but their proclamations of remorse do serve some purpose after all, don't they? It helps them con the MM into believing they are good, sweet, innocent women, the sort of women you might consider leaving your wife for after all. And it's obvious the OW nurture the MM's guilt to further their own agenda - NOT the MM's guilt for hurting his wife and kids though... No they 'support' the MM to try to help him get over feeling guilty about what he's doing to his wife and kids. The OW entertain the MM and try to make him feel good so he won't think about the wife and kids when he's with the OW. But the OW hope to exploit the MM's guilt over hurting them, the OW, until he finally feels so sorry for the OW that he leaves his wife and family.

The majority of the posts at TOW reveal a hostile attitude towards the BW's. The posts are littered with profanity. Then they criticize the posters her at MB for 'judging' them... I do agree that board wars are a waste of time. But sharing and discussing info that helps BS's and WS's understand that the OP often is indeed anything but innocent, is intentionally exploiting the WS's guilt for the purpose of detroying a marriage/family, is not only something we should be permitted to do here at MB's but should be encouraged to do. I think the moderators just want us to be careful to do so in a way that avoids profanity or bashing minus the educational/helpful aspect. JUST venting our hurt and anger when we see blatant evidence of the OW's undisguised motives is not enough. And of course a nasty board war is not something the moderators here want either.

I don't post at TOW and I don't think anyone who endorses adultery should post here (with the expectation that they will find support for adultery here).

[ June 08, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

Faithful Elisabeth,

The site is:

www.gloryb.com

But don't go there unless you haven't eaten lunch.

I just spent the last half hour over there reading again and the OM/OW Only portion of the board is the worst.

And,I didn't learn anything new and am still just as disgusted.

O

[ July 11, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]

Sorry to bump this up to the top by my reply, but yes, I have visited this site.

I was very disturbed to read some of the comments that the OW's have toward their lover's wives.

Either they feel that we don't exist, or that we're something to be disposed of. I guess the hurt that we go through when finding out our spouse has cheated on us doesn't matter?

Well, if the OW can convince the man to divorce his wife and marry her, and he ends up cheating on her, she'll find out how it feels, won't she?

HUGE hugs to my old friend (((Resiliant))) HEY, dont blame her! it was all MY fault! and a HUGE high 5 to the mods here, for not locking this thread!~ I LIKE IT! PAIN SUCKS, and its all around, hugs, c

i don't know why i'm posting really...i always get flamed here when i do.

but i'm reading this thread and i just have to add my two cents.

just as sickening as it is reading a thread on TOW about what an OW would like to do to a BW, it's just as sickening to come here and read about a BW wishing the OW's baby would die.

then why am i here???
to learn.

do i think all BS's are evil? no.
have i learned by reading here? yes.

people go through many emotional phases during this situation. these boards are a place where we can go to express what we're going through.

just because ten OW want to terrorize the BW doesn't mean we all do...and it doesn't mean that these OW are always thinking these things. we have emotions and that is our place to express it when these emotions arise.

a BW here posted that she wanted her H's OW to miscarry. it was brought up on our board and the women there thought it was disgusting. i too think the *statement* is disgusting, however, this woman is driven by emotion. i'll bet my last penny that under normal circumstances this BW would not wish death upon a baby. she's hurting and she's angry, with every right to be. THIS is her place to express those emotions.

we're not all crazy bunny boilers.

neither are you.

we're just at opposite ends of the situation.

and just like you, we are lied to.

many BW's read and post at TOW. we appreciate the majority of them for giving their insight.

i think it would be nice (flame away) if we could all just understand that we are driven by emotion right now. everyone has evil thoughts, anyone who's taken psychology 101 knows this, but we need to recognize these thoughts and deal with them so they do not become something we act upon (insert Glenn Close icon).

all three parties are confused in this process...all three parties hurt, all three parties have anger, all three parties are bitter, all three parties are sad....

this isn't *who* we are, as people, these are *phases* that we go through....and we express that on TOW and on MB.

i, along with other xOW, am thankful that both sites exist...and i know there are a lot of BS's who feel the same. these boards can help everyone involved heal and move on....because we are all learning from each other.

that's all...i'll go back into hiding now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
 Meremortal,

I totally hear you. And agree. Lots of good insights in your post.

I think that website is a "sign of the times." What I mean by that is that the internet is so unmoderated. Kids can go online and find out how to make a bomb and kill other kids at their school. Anyone can access free pornography very easily. People can have affairs via the net. You can read profanity, etc. on the net. Etc.

Morals aren't very moderated on the net, which is sad. If they were, that TOW site would not exist. I think I actually first went there awhile back when someone mentioned it. I was flabbergasted that such a place existed and I beleive I wrote an email to the creator of the site sharing my disgust as politely as possible (if that's possible!).

I wish there was something I could do to get rid of a site like that. I wish there was more I could do in the fight for the family... one that many people fight... not just BS's and those in troubled families, but even those in healthy families. The breakdown of the family unit affects all of society in umeasurable ways and the impact of infidelity can extend through generations. But more and more, our society is desensitized to things that once were appalling and totally unacceptable.

<hr /></blockquote>As I posted @ TOW

There are far worse sites for marriages out there than this one (TOW)... have you looked at the ones I mentioned in my earlier post?

Here they are again in case you missed it:

www.adultfriendfinder.com
www.meetawife.net
www.ashleymadison.com
www.philanderers.com
www.aspd.net

Those sites help people get into affairs (and worse!) - If you'd really look around at all the messages here @ TOW, you'd see that there are many many instances where TOW members are trying to help people get out of affairs.

Those other sites do far more damage to marriages than this one (TOW).

on the side lines said...

we're just at opposite ends of the situation.

all three parties are confused in this process...all three parties hurt, all three parties have anger, all three parties are bitter, all three parties are sad....

true enough...but only two of three involved...(more when if children are involved..)

CHOSE the situation..

onto some it is thrust...

ARK

Yes, I was there today and liked it - helped me in a way... Not that I don't know that there are different kinds of OWs, but... it kind of confirmed my opinion - my X cheating is HIS fault not hers even she contributed to it big time!
Cause, OW usually don't know us, never loved us, and, why would she care if she hurt us so unknown (not talking about moral now... anyway, what's moral nowadays anyway???)
So, no OW is guilty for our pain but our spouse who we gave love, devotion, kids, family, Home...

And I'll go again there, maybe even post...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayed by 2:
These women & men believe that they found "true love"?<hr /></blockquote>Don't forget, so some WSs think the same.
Actually, didn't WSs 'convinced' them to think so??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't know why I even went to it - stupid I know! But they actually are coming to this site & going back to that filth & saying that we (BS) are angry & un-christian-like. They think Plan B is the best thing - gives them are WSs. Quoting Harley as a fool.<hr /></blockquote>Why? What did you learn you didn't know already??

Also, aren't we (BSs) angry??
And OWs are too once they see that 'our' WS cheated them too as well!

Un-christian-like? Do we ever forgive them???

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel like crying and I feel like a DDay has occurred. People actually enjoying being a OW. Oh why did I go there?<hr /></blockquote>It isn't so bad to face the TRUTH... about what kind of women OUR spouse chose to be with...

It'll always be women like that, who don't care if they make their "happines" on someone else's unhappiness... also those that are stupid and naive to believe WS's lies... and those ones who feel guilty and break up A...
And the burden of guilt will never ever be bigger than the one on our WS's part!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Going to TOW and trying to "educate" is a waste of time. You can't communicate with the dead-people who are dead to the truth.<hr /></blockquote>I understand and I agree - no communication with the dead-people who are dead to the truth.

Then, why we try to stay married with WSs who CHOSE to be with those " (&$#&#)$& " ones???????
Aren't they the same than?

I mean... I really don't get it... the way you are looking at OPs but not at your own WSs...

Sorry, this was talk from my heart... never ever defending neither OW or A, but moreover the main and maybe the only cause of our pain - our WS's doings.....

Sorry my post look like flood, but I read responses after I write my opinion, if I feel to reply to them...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cciyer:
I also went to the site (could not resist!)...and honestly just felt empty. Not angry (although I am the BS)...their lives just seem very empty....kind of like mine right now.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly how I felt.
Some stories reminded me of kinds of women I already knew existing (wh....), and some of them were stupid to believe as I was with my XWS... and some of them even honest... but, in the essence, unhappy, miserable and bitter as we BSs are...

And the main cause (WS) stays protected by both sides, wanted, fought for... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I just got wish that OPs and BSs unite and kick them out with no return to any other woman/man EVER...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ June 10, 2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

I stumbled upon philanderers.com when I was searching for articles on philanderers and it was awful-- I can't imagine why anyone would wanna help others to lie, cheat and be sly-- like it is a wonderful thing. That site, I wanna flame. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

"Going to TOW and trying to "educate" is a waste of time. You can't communicate with the dead-people who are dead to the truth."

education is a relative term. the TRUTH, is not. SEEKING the truth, is education. TOW ain't all that bad folks.

kudos to the mods here (and there) for not kneejerking. hugs ,c

Oh yes, some of you BW's would find some of Onthesidelines earlier posts very eye opening. She has taken great pleasure in the fact she got pregnant while MM and his W were having fertility issues. She rubbed it in at great length that wifey couldn't do it for her H but she could.

Yeah, they are really nice people over there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

PS - ARK, The situation was very much forced upon the W of OTSL's MM.

[ June 10, 2004, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: findingmywayback ]

Originally posted by OnTheSidelines:

i think it would be nice (flame away) if we could all just understand that we are driven by emotion right now. everyone has evil thoughts, anyone who's taken psychology 101 knows this, but we need to recognize these thoughts and deal with them so they do not become something we act upon (insert Glenn Close icon).

I wonder....

if you would ever considered commiting yourself to a purpose / principled driven life?

Emotionally driven lives are often run into the ditch.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Originally posted by findingmywayback:
Oh yes, some of you BW's would find some of Onthesidelines earlier posts very eye opening. She has taken great pleasure in the fact she got pregnant while MM and his W were having fertility issues. She rubbed it in at great length that wifey couldn't do it for her H but she could.

<hr /></blockquote>YIKES!

That's an ugly story. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It's all there in black and white for anyone who wants to do the research.

I don't really think a lot of them understand the full magnitude of the hurt and devestation they cause, or they just plain don't care.

In my opinion,it is very simple.

The SECOND that a woman or a man knows that a person they are about to be involved with is MARRIED,they should walk away and no longer be involved,ever.Whether this happens right away as it did in my case(WH told HW that the was married) or if it happens 8 months down the road.The solution is the same.

I don't care if these OP/WS's are emotionally involved.Until we start making it a crime or close to that by people getting involved with married people,this trend will continue and they will make a mockery of marriage,which is what many men and women apsire to have.If we all just did what we wanted with a blatant disregard for other's peoples feelings and families,etc then why do we develop a conscience or why do we have rules and vows and boundaries??

Some may say that it's not that easy and I agree BUT it is necessary.Some hard decisions in life are NOT easy and even hurt.Adultery is a case study in right versus wrong.Plain and simple.So to know that there is a website(TOW) that allows OP's to discuss and support adultery is appalling.

I do appreciate the few at TOW that have stood up for us at MB and why this website exists but until OP's get real and stop the bad behavior,many more hearts are going to be broken over and over.And yes,this applies to our WS's too.They are as much to blame as the OP IMO but we as BS's have a marriage with them and families and much more at stake.I cannot think of anyone here that blames the OP SOLELY for the A.If there is then that's simply not true.

So with all due respect,ahem,I don't appreciate a TOW member(s) coming here to explain their reasoning for such decisions in causing pain and destruction in our marriages and families.

O

"So with all due respect,ahem,I don't appreciate a TOW member(s) coming here to explain their reasoning for such decisions in causing pain and destruction in our marriages and families."

Agreed. Marriage Builders is a SUPPORT forum, meant to provide suggestions, advice and support for those attempting to rebuild & recovery their marriages!!

However, they don't appreciate our presence on their board either. The TOW forum is their SAFE place. PLEASE do not go to their forum intending to "enlighten, inform, instruct, guide, condemn" etc....

I agree with you Octobergirl.

And, Yes, we shouldn't go over there and post on their threads complaining about MB. We have every right to complain over here (if we stay within the guidelines of course).

I am a remorseful WS who is very embarassed by my actions during the A. I am committed to keeping my M together, and really wish I had never gone down that road to begin with. I come to this site to read about Marriage Building, not Marriage Destroying.

I never have posted there and never will.I only read from time to time.

O

Octobergirl,

Just so you don't misunderstand,,, my comment was not meant for you in particular but to our forum members in general.

Okey Dokey.I thought my mouth was going to get me in BIG trouble! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for the message.

O

I am a FWW who had an EA, and while going through a particularly hard withdrawal, I visited that site. I can tell you I was appalled and disgusted by what I read.

I know I'm the last person to act self-righteous...HOWEVER...when I was involved in the EA, I felt shame and sadness that I was a married person in a relationship (even though not sexual) with another married person. I KNEW it was wrong.

The last thing I would have done is actually glory in my infidelity, or boast about it in any way. There are women on there who brag about it without any shame whatsoever.

So even though I was an OW at one point, I cannot relate to those women at all.