Thumbs up to JustJ!

Perpetuating the anger just feeds the belief that they are justified in taking what they want, but know is not theirs. And not all feel that way. Better to turn your focus someplace positive - there's plenty of negative out there already.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets agree to disagree.
When a WS or OP calls one another THEY CHOSE to have social contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to meet they CHOSE to have contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to sleep together THEY CHOSE to be intimate without the BS knowing.
They both chose to do every action so that it could lead to the affair. JMO

You're assuming a lot about how they are thinking or feeling in that situation. I ABSOLUTELY did not 'set out' to have an A. Which is why I left my marriage - BECAUSE I found myself having feelings for someone else. The problem was that something in my gut kept pulling me back to my marriage - and the chemicals in my brain would then kick in and pull me back to feelings for OP - and back again. I did not conciously set out to do that. Nor did I conciously set out to use and hurt the OP. I didn't CHOOSE to do the wrong thing ON PURPOSE - I most definatly did make bad decisions that ended up hurting everyone. I wasn't the only one in our triangle making bad decisions.

My WH told me that he and the homewrecker DID disuss what they were about to do and did it ANYWAY despite him being married.They both had a CHOICE and made it,destruction all around.Infidelity,Adultery.

I have also visited the TOW site on a few occasions and it is a wretched display of evil justification,rationalization and denial.If anyone is hurting on that site it's because of their ACTIONS,their CHOICES.Screaming out loud or talking in a whisper for what they have done empowers me because I KNOW I am right and always will be.They are,and forever will be WRONG until they(WS) stop being selfish,hurtful persons and end the adultery.Painful? Yes, for the betrayers.Necessary? Yes.I DO take the moral high ground because of my actions and comittments.I have not broken any vows,any commandments,any promises,any rules,etc.I did not make a conscious decision to hurt a loved one like my WH did.

Do I want to be right or do I want to be married? Well,in my mind I am both right now.I may not stay married much longer but at least I know what I did and tried to save was the right thing to do.I can live with myself at the end of each day.I honestly do not know how some of those women on TOW stay in an A for years.It's mind boggling.

O

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I don't want to close this thread, because I feel this is a valid topic, but do follow our TOS and check your posts to see if you have followed the rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trying2_4give:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets agree to disagree.
When a WS or OP calls one another THEY CHOSE to have social contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to meet they CHOSE to have contact without the BS knowing.
When they decide to sleep together THEY CHOSE to be intimate without the BS knowing.
They both chose to do every action so that it could lead to the affair. JMO </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to agree to disagree. Once the affair starts if they continue that is a choice. I wasn't saying there wasn't a choice to continue an affair. I was saying that in most cases that having an affair isn't the intent.

[QB] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that what they did was wrong and in most cases I think that they, our spouses included, didn't set out to have an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think my wife sat at work one day and said "I'm not happy, I think I'll have an affair."

Hi Folks,

I joined the TOW site and posted there as "RESILIENT" a few years back. And as most of you know, I am a BS. They, TOW, knew me from reading here on MB and allowed me to post.

I went there at a point in my recovering from my ex-H's betrayal and subsequent divorce to understand what went on between him and his OWs.

I have to say what I learned was most the long time OWs there do not advocate or encourage the new members to continue in their affairs, on the contrary, they discourage them.

I'm posting this because I would like to advise our members here to not post on TOW. Off and on over the years we have had several board wars and once it starts it's very hard to calm things down again.

I kindly request, if you do post there please be respectful.

God Bless,
Jo

I don't really view people's "disgust" at the other site as "attacking." I also don't think it's beneficial to know that things such as "The Other Woman" site exist and to say nothing in order to "keep peace" or extend compassion to a WS.

I don't want to be the blind, deaf, and dumb monkey with his hands over eyes, ears, and mouth. That's often what we are encouraged to do when we see things we "don't like." Our negative response is minimized or dismissed with "stop judging" or "it doesn't help to attack," and we are told not to get upset, don't attack, don't judge, etc. In other words, say nothing, do nothing, and let it be. If we all did this, how would society ever change or ever improve? This was the very mentality that led to years of slavery and oppression of black people by us Americans... and other such acts.

When Hitler was killing the Jews, and America decided to not be the dumb, blind, and deaf monkey, lives were lost. It was a WAR. In my opinion, there is a similar "war" on marriage. There is in essence, a type of war being fought between a OW and a BS. The BS is fighting to keep a marriage that the OW is wanting to end. And the MM who's seeing the OW is betraying them both. There can be NO peace, NO good feelings, NO "turn the other cheek" because it is literally a type of war... a war for a marriage and a family, a war for what's right, a war for truth and integrity. All those things are compromised with infidelity. Wars are ugly and painful and they aren't fought by showing "compassion" or by saying nothing. And there WILL be casualties and contention along the way.

Anyways,I might be confused about the purpose of the OW site but I did not get the impression that it was for the healing or recovery of an OW, but more for the encouragement to continue in an affair... to "hang in there" while dating a married man. Lots of posts about, "This is so hard. He didn't call me today. I am afraid she [wife] is watching his every move." And others responding with, "Hang in there." Compassion says, "LOOK at what is going on! Open your eyes and listen to what you are saying!"

As for "feeling" their pain, like I said, I do not condemn WS's. I would offer any WS forgiveness if it was sought. I would encourage any BS to extend forgiveness. We are all sinners and all capable of very heinous sins. And bitterness can eat a person away.

However, there is something to be said about the boastfulness of a sin. The lack of shame and the lack of regret or remorse. I can't "feel the pain" of someone who has or is doing wrong and yet boasts of it or delights in it and/or has no shame and no understanding for what destruction they are causing. IF we give such a person "compassion," that person will not get out of that situation. Compassion sees the whole picture. Compassion goes far beyond just feeling pity for someone.

It's not good or healthy to be filled with anger, hate, revenge, bitterness, etc. That's not what I would recommend for anyone nor is it what I am advocating. But it's also not right or healthy to see what's going on with a WS and minimize the heinousness of it. Yes, HEINOUSNESS. We are so used to reading about affairs, hearing about affairs, etc... that I think it often loses it's "shock" and we just accept it and shake our heads not really knowing what we can do. Or we have a totally twisted mentality and think that the BS "deserved" it anyways. And we even find ourselves sympathizing with a WS. I read in some comments here an encouragement to sympathize with a WS.

The time to give a WS sympathy is AFTER they have ended an affair and have been broken by what they have done and not a minute sooner. To do so would only cheapen and twist what compassion is really all about.

<small>[ June 06, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

LMX, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! GREAT POST!

BB2,

I honestly cannot know the depths of your pain. I have not gone through what you have and can only imagine how it has tormented your heart and mind. In the Bible, adultery is always talked about VERY VERY harshly. It is a completely grievous and heinous sin with absolutely NO excuse whatsoever. It does not matter if the marriage is bad. That still does not justify having an affair... basically having a girlfriend and a wife at the same time. If it were okay, it'd be polygamy.

Sure, things might "drive" a person to have an affair, but EVERY person is capable of making a choice to NOT have an affair (unless perhaps they are mentally hindered in some way... perhaps are on drugs or mentally challenged and don't understand right from wrong, etc). I realize that a very bad marriage can be a very painful thing that can cause a person to become discontent and unhappy, but an affair is not the answer... and it's not even a "normal" answer. Millions of people survive bad marriages by either going to counseling or perhaps getting a divorce. Millions of people don't have affairs. Many simply don't have them for the sake of integrity, dignity, and repuation. All those things are completely lost and compromised in an affair. It's simply not worth it.

Okay, I'm getting on my "soapbox." I really just wanted to tell you that I am sorry for your pain and can't imagine how it must feel to have been betrayed by both husband and friend. You might never get the answers you desire, but I do hope and pray that your friend will one day see what she has done and will be broken over it and seek your forgiveness. I also pray that God gives you the strength to forgive and the wisdom to know how to do so and what that entails.

All you can do for now is walk uprightly in your own life. You cannot control either OW or husband, but you can make choices for the good of you and your family. One day at a time. When things are bad and feel miserable, try to remember that each day is a new day and "this too shall pass."

"I went to seek the why? My OW was a friend, I wanted answers about why she could do this."

I am an OW, and I post on TOW.

I can tell you that a visit to TOW can't give you answers about your husband's OW.

We are each completely different people who share one thing in common: a relationship with someone who is married. That's it.

I think, though, that since she was your friend, you have every right to press HER for answers.

Cecily

Just J,

That was a lovely post.

I totally see what you're saying... but I think there's a world of difference between venting anger and bitterness TOWARD people (as in, going to their site to be hurtful) and venting it ABOUT people on a site that is your place to rant and rave and deal with your pain...

TOW gives that to OWs... it's the only place many of us have.

MB (and other places) give that to BSs.

There have been times I've written on TOW, almost throwing a temper tantrum out of pain... venting...

But it's my PLACE.

I think that it's very painful and self-destructive to hold that stuff in.

Discussion boards give people in horrible situations a place to just let themselves BE nasty, sometimes... harsh, illogical, blaming...

To just BE free to be ANGRY.

From what I've seen of Plan A, there are plenty of people here who have a lot to BE angry about.

Cecily

Originally posted by Cecily:


"From what I've seen of Plan A, there are plenty of people here who have a lot to BE angry about."


What are you talking about??

Pep

<small>[ June 06, 2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong>

The time to give a WS sympathy is AFTER they have ended an affair and have been broken by what they have done and not a minute sooner. To do so would only cheapen and twist what compassion is really all about. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of the most outstanding posts I have ever read on this forum. Thank you for that truthful, articulate, poignant post. I am glad you are here, LME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hear, hear, LMX.

"Did you know your lover was married when you started your affair?"

"About eighty percent of us knew that our lover was married when we got involved. The ones who did not know usually found out within the first few days or weeks. Occasionally, it went on for a few months."

From the Q&A section at TOW.

This confirms my suspicion that most OW are only pretending to believe the WH's lies, to make themselves appear innocent to the MM they are involved with. Therefore when the WH defends and feels sorry for the OW, it's not only more cruelty for the BW, it's uncalled for, IMO. Most OW know and just don't care. They have CHOSEN to indulge in adultery for their own selfish motives, they apparently decided the stolen pleasure was worth the risk of possible emotional pain later. And if they thought there would be no pain, it was because they were counting on breaking up the marriage/family to fulfill their own selfish desire. By contrast, the adultery brought no pleasure, only pain, to the BW and the children, without them having any choice in it. Under those circumstances, it's difficult for the BS and children to witness the WH expressing any concern for the OW. A more appropriate message for the WH to give his wife and children would be that he has learned how to protect himself, his wife, his marriage, his family, from such temptations in the future. Everything possible should be done to ease the emotional suffering of the betrayed spouse and the children, including acknowledging that the OP, in almost all cases, is responsible for their own choices and the consequences of those choices. I am not in any way saying the WS didn't do anything wrong too. I just don't see why anyone should ignore the obvious fact that MOST adult females are very aware that sometimes MM tell lies to get women to have affairs with them. Just because a MM tells a lie to an OW, that does not automatically translate to the OW really believing him. There are motives for the OW to pretend to believe however... PART of the WH taking responsibility for his part in the affair is to stop being naive about the ability of adult women to also be deceptive when it suits their agenda. IMO the WS has a responsibility to acknowledge all the weaknesses that led to their involvement in the affair, including being naive about the OP's supposed innocence. A WH who keeps the OW up on a pedestal has not yet learned all he needs to know to protect himself from adultery. Especially if offering sympathy, wanting to be a knight in shining armor (armour?) to a woman other than his wife, is part of how he got in trouble. The BW who needs the assurance that her WH understands that women ARE intelligent enough (but sometimes unwise enough) to be just as deceptive as men can be. The BW doesn't need to hear her husband admit this because she is being vindictive towards the OW, but because she's scared that if her WH doesn't get this he will just fall for another 'innocent' OW's act.
Plus it REALLY hurts to have the WH in any way put the feelings of the OW above those of the BW.
The WH has to make a choice, not in just who he is going to break up with and who he is going to stay with, but in who he is going to defend and honor.

<small>[ June 07, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

I visited there today. I guess one of my posts there really had them stired up. I posted here how I thought it was sick.

<small>[ July 11, 2004, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

P.S. I honestly question the motives, values, worldview, and mentality of a person who creates a website in which OW can go to share their struggles in their affairs and can give suggestions and encouragement, NOT to end the affair, but to survive and get through the "hard" things (i.e. wives finding out, pregnancies, sneaking around, etc). AMAZING. Why would a person create such a site? I have read comments of some saying it's a "helpful" site and that the OW's encourage others not to get into an affair, but those people must be reading different posts than I am... because what I read where OW not feeling regret, not feeling shame, but rather wanting the comradery of other OW's so that they can "hang in there" in their affairs. How will these women ever be convicted of what they are doing unless someone says, "DO YOU NOT see what you are doing??!! STOP! Wake up! Open your eyes!" Etc. I don't see any of that on that website. None of it.

Anyone who is having an affair with a married person has hardened their heart because if they had any empathy, goodness, kindness, compassion, understanding, etc., they would NOT have that affair simply because of what it is doing to the MM's wife and children. Only a hardened heart can say, "But I love him. I know he's got a wife at home, BUT..." NO!!! No "but"! It should be "I know he's got a wife and home AND thus I am NOT going to enter into an intimate relationship, either physical or emotional, with this person."

Hardness leads to more hardness. Depravity leads to more depravity. Wallowing in a pig sty full of mud (which to me is what an OW and MM are doing in their affair) only takes your eyes off of cleanliness and makes you think, hey, this mud ain't so bad... at first I didn't think so, but I'm kinda getting used to it now and I think I look quite nice all muddy. Who cares about the mud anyways... I'm "in love!" That's love?

You lose perspective. Lose empathy. Lose a clear, sound mind. What's wrong becomes right and what's right becomes wrong. And that to me is scary because it affects all of society. It affects children, and children grow up to be adults, some of them unstable, disturbed adults because dad cheated on mom and they saw that people don't keep their promises.

People have got to stop being desensitized to things like infidelity. We've got to stop justifying, stop sympathizing with the adulterers (not until after they've stopped and been broken and repentive), stop covering our eyes, stop psychoanalyzing the reasons that these two are having the affair, and just say, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!" Be shocked, be disgusted, be appalled. Because it is shocking, disgusting, and appalling. And yah, those are very "harsh" words, but affairs are very "harsh" things.

<small>[ July 11, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

LME -

You are absolutely right.

I've only visited the TOW site twice in the past year. The messages that challenged adultery are there but most definitely in the minority. You have to read through a LOT of endorsement for keeping the affair going, 'support' for trying to get the MM to leave his wife and kids, and the F word tossed in here and there, before you find a message pointing out something like the betrayed wife is just trying to save her marriage so maybe she (the BW) shouldn't be treated like the enemy.

For example, there is a thread about the no contact letter that this site advises the WS to send to the OP. Posters at TOW were saying it was just cruelty to the OP if the WS sent such a letter. And they were not exactly saying it in a way that showed any respect for Steve Harley, the posters here at MB, or BS's. ALL they cared about is how no contact interferes with them getting what they wanted: to destroy a marriage and stay involved with somebody else's spouse.
There was no doubt these OW felt entitled to be involved with MM and were angry that anyone would try to encourage the MM to stop all contact with them. Only after a LOT of messages were posted, flaming Harley, MB's, BS's efforts to save their marriages, did some posters start defending us and our efforts to save our marriages.

And there's a strong undercurrent of seeing themselves as the victim (and in many cases portraying the wife as the enemy), not necessarily because their married lover lied to them and they were just too naive to realize they were being lied to... MANY of the TOW posters KNOW they are/were committing adultery and just don't/didn't care. They seek sympathy because their married lover has not yet left his wife and kids, or because he went back to them. TOW provides them with sympathy for that and for support to keep the affair going until the MM's marriage/family is destroyed.

And IMO they are pretty darn good at getting the MM to feel sorry for them. WH's need to realize that the OW do manipluate the WH's guilt in order to keep contact with the OW going.

One poster shares how she has successfully gotten the MM she had an affair with to keep agreeing to meet with her one more time... because she NEEDS him to for closure's sake. She keeps contacting him and tells him she thinks maybe if he will see her again THEN she will be able to leave him alone. Apparently the MM is feeling guilty for hurting her and hoping if he does meet her demand to meet again then maybe she will finally get enough closure to leave him alone. MOST of the posters who responded to her were congratulating her on her success at getting to see him again (and again). And they were gushing about how much enjoyment she was going to get out of being with him again. EVENTUALLY somebody posted something that challenged what she was up to.

While I would agree that it would be inappropriate for the MB posters to post something challenging or inflammatory on the TOW site. I do not agree that there is something wrong with us reading there to learn about the OW mentality and motives and then coming back here to discuss it. IMO it's very educational. It is a good thing for us to see evidence that the OW is not as innocent as they pretend to be.
IMO we not only should be allowed to discuss OW motives and tactics here at MB, we would be wise to do so. Our marriages have been attacked and the attackers do intend to destroy our marriages and families.

So what if they sometimes feel some remorse about what they are doing? If they don't feel enough remorse to STOP what they're doing, then the remorse is fake and/or ineffectual. They may as well not feel any remorse at all if it doesn't cause them to stop their wrongdoing. Ah... but their proclamations of remorse do serve some purpose after all, don't they? It helps them con the MM into believing they are good, sweet, innocent women, the sort of women you might consider leaving your wife for after all. And it's obvious the OW nurture the MM's guilt to further their own agenda - NOT the MM's guilt for hurting his wife and kids though... No they 'support' the MM to try to help him get over feeling guilty about what he's doing to his wife and kids. The OW entertain the MM and try to make him feel good so he won't think about the wife and kids when he's with the OW. But the OW hope to exploit the MM's guilt over hurting them, the OW, until he finally feels so sorry for the OW that he leaves his wife and family.

The majority of the posts at TOW reveal a hostile attitude towards the BW's. The posts are littered with profanity. Then they criticize the posters her at MB for 'judging' them... I do agree that board wars are a waste of time. But sharing and discussing info that helps BS's and WS's understand that the OP often is indeed anything but innocent, is intentionally exploiting the WS's guilt for the purpose of detroying a marriage/family, is not only something we should be permitted to do here at MB's but should be encouraged to do. I think the moderators just want us to be careful to do so in a way that avoids profanity or bashing minus the educational/helpful aspect. JUST venting our hurt and anger when we see blatant evidence of the OW's undisguised motives is not enough. And of course a nasty board war is not something the moderators here want either.

I don't post at TOW and I don't think anyone who endorses adultery should post here (with the expectation that they will find support for adultery here).

<small>[ June 08, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>