Deut, drop in please. - Marriage Builders® Forums

Deut,

Wanted to discuss your marital reconciliation plan. Come on by...

Er... plan? Maritial reconciliation?

It's currently kind of up in the air.

In fact... somehow... and I'm sitting here reeeeeling...

I'm back in limbo again.

Lonely, confused, without direction. Lost.

I know for sure that I can't go on like this. I wish I could say I was a man with infinite integrity and unending stregnth, but clearly I have my limits.

If I had an option that seemed feasible, perhaps I could base a plan on that.

But ultimately the ball for reconciliation is in Dylan's court.

dewt

Deut,

Your wife is currently at home with you. She's been hurt by your recent betrayals (sleeping with xW, girlfriends). You are still dating someone.

How is the ball in her court, exactly? Because she's scared of attempting a reconciliation with you? Look objectively at your behavior and see if you can't figure this out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lonely, confused, without direction. Lost.

I know for sure that I can't go on like this. I wish I could say I was a man with infinite integrity and unending stregnth, but clearly I have my limits. <hr /></blockquote>I wish you had infinite integrity and unending strenght too. In fact, I'd take you behaving with a smidgeon of integrity and a tiny bit of strength---but you don't seem to be able to muster even that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If I had an option that seemed feasible, perhaps I could base a plan on that.<hr /></blockquote>I've given you a feasible option time and time again that is plan-centric. Here it is, one more time.

1. Stop your affair. No more dating. Commit to this for at least one year. You are worse than an alcoholic when it comes to women, and you're going to continually destroy lives until you get a grip on this.

2. Start making regular appointments with Penny to work on a plan for marital reconstruction. Ask Dylan to join you. Empathize with your wife's obvious pain and mistrust of your actions---and do not attempt to push your taker's agenda on a short timeframe.

3. Be committed to this program, and have the patience to let it work. The more patience (less pushing) you employ, the faster your progress will be. It's essential that you not push Dylan, but rather lead with good marital behavior.

4. And on the subject of good marital behavior, that means no women (again). No XW. No girlfriend. No bars. Nothing.

Its my very learned and wise opinion (cough, cough) that you have one more shot at this, in a very limited time frame. If you don't take this opportunity now, but instead keep up with your typical behavior and patterns---I can pretty much guarantee you that you will have a miserable rest-of-your-life existance on this earth. Failed relationship after failed relationship. Teaching your son these patterns so he can be doomed too. Destroying your wife.

You are married, deut. You need to grow up and act like it---without assigning the blame for your inexcusable, abysmal behavior on your wife. You have the plan in understandable terms above you. Your next step is to call Penny and set up an appointment.

[ August 27, 2004, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: K ]

Dewt,

Have you ever read or heard of the book 'Every Man's Battle' by Steve Arterburn? It sounds like you struggle with a lot of the issues that are talked about in this book. You can check out the web site at http://everymansbattle.com/

I'm a serious old timer and I remember you and Dylan from way back. I'm sorry that y'all are still going through this chaos.

My prayers are with you family.

VL/Jodi

K,

First and foremost, and with all due respect, statements like, "In fact, I'd take you behaving with a smidgeon of integrity and a tiny bit of strength---but you don't seem to be able to muster even that." are not only hurtful, but also untrue. A smidgeon, I've mustered... and a little more besides.

As for Dylan being scared to face reconciliation with me... well, uh, I can relate. It's like she's so wrapped up in her judgement of me that she refuses to look at herself and her own actions. This is not the atmosphere that will enable me to show good maritial behaviour. In fact, I think we can safely assume that this type of atmosphere will bring me to an emotional place that is overwhelmingly conducive to disastrous choices.

Your plan is a good one. One that I would willingly undertake providing that Dylan took certain steps too. And made certain commitments. And that's a whole 'nuther post... but I'm so dead serious about this. I will not set myself up in a situation that I know will end in a train wreck. I can't afford anymore trainwrecks.

And this is not about me having one more shot at this. If it is, then I must respectfully decline the opportunity to fail again. If, however this is about us having one more shot... well, I'm all ears. But without her stepping up and meeting me at the plate, there really and truly isn't much point in dragging this out.

And also... I don't blame Dylan for this situation. I don't blame Dylan for my behaviour. I don't blame my mom or dad... I make my own decisions. Nobody I know has that much control over me that they can make my decisions for me. Can we settle this particular thing once and for all? Please?

Jodi, thanks for popping in. Yes, I've checked out their website, but I don't think it's for me. Not to say that there aren't things I could benefit from, this is really not about sexual temptation for me... that sort of temptation is more of a symptom than a cause. Nonetheless, I am trying to be more involved with my church and hope that will help me find and keep some clarity.

dewt

Deut--

I also remember you guys from way back, and have followed this whole sorry mess. I feel for you and Dylan both...you are both hurting.

There's plenty of blame and fault for you both, with some leftover. But none of that matters really. All that matters is what the two of you choose to do today, and the next, and the next...

K has outlined 4 pretty clear steps, and I am in total agreement with them. I also agree that you likely have a window of opportunity here, that will not be here forever. I urge you to take it. Not simply because your current behavior, if continued, isn't going to lead to a happy life for you...but also because I truly believe you and Dylan care deeply for each other, and can help each other thru al this.

You speak of needing certain things from Dylan to be able to commit to following K's suggestions for you. So let me ask...what do you feel you need?

Kathi

Hey Dewt -

This is OT to this thread but wanted to say I got out the bible my friend recently gave to me and read the passages from Mathew that you have in your sig line, and this forgiveness of others trespasses to us is pretty serious stuff. Needed to read that this morning, so thank you for that.

I appreciate what K and the others are trying to do to help you and Dylan, you and are both very nice, likeable people judging from your posts. so it is easy to see why others so much want to see your marriage survive and thrive. I wish you and Dylan both the best and hope that you can find peace.

I too am interested in Kathi's question to you regarding what it is exactly that Dylan needs to do to get you to follow K's four step plan that he has outlined for you.

Weaver

Deut,

I'm sorry if you find these posts hurtful, but I will not mollycoddle you with praise for your behaviors. You know that I feel you talk a very good game, but that your actions are sorely lacking. And that personally drives me crazy---because I know you're not clueless about this stuff---you have an excellent comprehesion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Your plan is a good one. One that I would willingly undertake providing that Dylan took certain steps too. And made certain commitments.<hr /></blockquote>My impression of Dylan is this. She is willing to do no contact. She is willing to engage in MC (with Penny would be my hope). Those are the only two things you need to make a start. And you notice that the steps I mentioned for you are the same. Stop cheating. Start counseling. Be patient, and allow your counselor to help the two of you navigate and negotiate these other issues.

So, as kathi and weaver state---what else do you need?

And finally:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will not set myself up in a situation that I know will end in a train wreck. I can't afford anymore trainwrecks. <hr /></blockquote>I completely agree that you can't afford more train wrecks. However, looking at your situation right now---do you not see this as a situation that is just begging for a train wreck? You've invited Dylan back, you're not working on your marriage, you're openly cheating on her. How is this good, Christian behavior? Christian behavior exists solo, it does not depend on anyone else's actions or reactions. It's beautiful in it's simplicity. You are married. You need to chose behaviors that demonstrate love, charity, fidelity, and forgiveness.

Please put aside your fears, and make an appointment with Penny.

K... m'man... it's not the posts that are hurtful... no. The posts are things I need to hear. Even when I'm argumentative, and seem like I'm 'not getting it' it's because that's the way I explore and evaluate my own thoughts and feelings. By debating them, turning them over, testing them.

Any, my point is that it's not the posts. It's statements that come across as disrespectfully judgemental (not that I'm actually asking for any respect... that I shall earn) like the one I quoted in my last post. Blanket statements/attacks against my character that are, well, um, exagerated and quite unduly harsh. Not even a smidgeon of integrity?

In fact, right now, that's my biggest problem with Dylan. The Thing that is most dissuading me from jumping on that plan of yours.

Which brings me to the first answer of the question everyone is asking...

I firmly believe that the only way this marriage is going to work is if both Dylan and I make a profound commitment to make it work. And then follow that commitment with ACTION.

I've tried doing it alone. She's tried doing it alone, neither of us can claim we've sustained our efforts in the areas that really count. So unless I can be convinced that we'd BOTH be committed and follow up on it with action, then what's the point? Do I wanna go through this again? Does she? I'd bet dollars to dimes Dylan would echo this statement.

But at this point, there seems to be an awful lot of finger pointing going on. It feels like Dylan believes that this is all my fault. I can't take that anymore. Have I screwed up? Oh yeah. But I admit to it... acknowledge it and try to get back on track. I keep falling off, but at least I'm still trying. I feel that if she looked in the mirror she might acknowledge that she's equal to me in the magnitude of poor judgement and bad marital behaviour and be willing to work on herself a little bit rather than shovelling all this onto my shoulders and expecting me to prove myself.

It's hypocritical. And I can understand someone feeling that way... but I also expect them to stop at some point.

I'm getting totally sidetracked and long winded here...

And babbling...

Un-neccesary when the bottom line is I need her to tell me that she wants to save this marriage. That we have a future. That the efforts I put into this are not going to be pointless.

I need a plan. With a start, middle and ending. A plan that is reasonable and takes me into account too.

I need reassurance and proof that our lifestyle will undergo significant changes on all levels.

Please understand that I'm not asking her to do everything... just to seriously meet me at the plate.

There. I just summed this whole post up with 5 words.

Meet me at the plate.

dewt

deut,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Meet me at the plate.<hr /></blockquote>It seems to me that she has and will. I do believe that she would start counseling with you. She's done the no-contact thing, and to the best of my abilities to read the situation she's not backing off of that.

What you seem to be indicating in your post (using baseball terms), is that you want Dylan not only to step up to the plate, but to commit to a 10 year contract where the terms aren't spelled out, and to do so enthusiastically. That's not going to happen---and if you set the hurdle that high, you're just damning your marriage.

If the two of you get into counseling---its your counselor's (coach's) job to help motivate and teach the two of you. It's your job to demonstrate to Dylan that there's a good reason to stick it out with your team---that there are long term benefits for all involved. And it's her job to do the same for you. I also believe that from the tone of her posts, she's not far away from having hope here---but she needs concrete actions from you with regard to the marriage.

The other thing I see in your post is issues with "the blame game". Face it kid---you're to blame here. This is all entirely your fault... Gotcha', didn't I... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You and Dylan have made enough mistakes in the last couple of years to give Bill Harley enough material for a couple new books. But remember what he says about people coming out of affairs---they don't like to apologize. In fact, they're a bit pissed off that they have to come out of fantasy land and face the hard work of restoring a marriage. You are both coming out of affairs. I believe that your affairs are not as emotionally involving for you as Dylan's---the good news is that you come out to face reality more quickly. The bad news is that you shockingly slide back into bad behavior without warning---and if I were Dylan, I'd be scared to death that you'd do it again on me just when I was starting to love you again.

You're both ready to take a shot a recovery, assuming that you can dial the phone and both parties can get on the extension. Waiting will not help your situation. And I'll remind you that you owe this both to your son, and your wife. OK---gotta go to church now...

Dewt...

basically you are asking for the impossible..

a garunutee...
even a garuntee to work on things right now may not be possible from dylan...

but that has nothing to do with you...

you sound like..... I would do
and I could do
all these things to even start and address things...
but until dylan does this or that..
or even says she will do this or that
OR even says she might be interested in a marriage...

then I dewt, will not do a thing....

too much "I won't if she won't" going on...

and no one is talking to you about commmitting 100000% to fixing this thing...

BUT
if you continue to make choices and to actions that self sabotage even the chance of Dylan committing to a n y t h i n g...

then you have to realize that is allll you...

I still am flabbergasted that you are/were seeing other woman socially..
I can barely get past that concept and I am not your spouse..
it is your and mine and our actions that define us...and i for one can not comprehend how on one hand you are asking for and seeking some affirmation from dylan that instills hope....in your relationship...

and then in action doing the absolute one thing that undermines it to the core....

people behave as they should in their marriage INSPITE of their spouses....

and if you tell me that you believe because dylan says right now that she can't or won't commit to the marriage and in your head that means there is no marriage so you are free to date...

that thought
that action
speaks volumes to me about the value you yourself have in marital vows...
and that's all back on you...

Dewt you know I abhor chaos...
and always plead with posters to seek the chaos that they invite, create and allow in their universe and start with what they can control in ceasing...

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
What you seem to be indicating in your post (using baseball terms), is that you want Dylan not only to step up to the plate, but to commit to a 10 year contract where the terms aren't spelled out, and to do so enthusiastically. That's not going to happen---and if you set the hurdle that high, you're just damning your marriage.
<hr /></blockquote>Nope. What I'm asking is that she tell me straight out that she wants such a contract and then sit down and work out the terms with me. Then, with a contract that is mutually beneficaial, we both commit. I don't want to be the only one jumping hurdles, cause then, when I don't make it, the fingers will still all be pointing back at me.

As for her having already met me at the plate... well, no. So far, there's been only assurances that she does not want to work on this marriage. The closest we've come is a two year plan where my deepest needs get suspended until she works out her sh... stuff and decides what she wants to do.

And ya, she's done the NC thing, but after how many months? It finally happened, but only at her convenience... not out of any respect for me or urgent desire to save our marriage - but because I insisted that we couldn't even be friends if that backstabbing skank was involved in our lives. And really, in the end, OP is just a symptom of a bigger problem. I want that addressed.

You said, "I also believe that from the tone of her posts, she's not far away from having hope here."

Well, at numerous points, I've believed that too. But the bottom line is that there is no hope until the two of us conciously decide to introduce some hope. Short of that, we're looking at a repeat of the situation that led up to her affair, to my affair... please, you must understand that I'm petrified of any more false hope...

I do remember what Harley says about people coming out of affairs... I remember reading about John and Sue and how Sue was treating John like he was having the affair... I had to put the book down at that point. It was over a month before I could even pick it up again.

And what you say is true. Affairs are not emotionally involving for me. But I do not slide back in without warning... My patterns are easily predictable. And if Dylan is scared that I'd do it again, well she has the power to interupt that pattern. All she has to do is give me a reason not to. When my path is clear, it's a lot easier for me to stay on it.

It's not fair for her to leave me in (from my perspective) a hopeless situation and expect me to perform admirably. Hey, if I was emotionally whole and undamaged and without the specific issues that I have, perhaps I could pull it off (as many on these boards have) but the fact is I need years of major counselling to get to that point. Right now, I need Dylan's help. I cannot do this alone.

I'm definately into counselling. Penny sounds great.

John

ark, I just posted, and saw that you wrote to me...

I don't have time to reply right now... but I will come back later...

Thank you for posting. Your views are sooooo valuable to me.

J

Mmmmmmmmmm.

Dewt, I've been where you are. Wanting to sit down and work out that contract and get ON with it.

Been there.

Done that.

And you know, I've actually worked out a contract. Not to reconcile our marriage but to work out custody for our daughter.

It was absolutely awful.

It destroyed much of the love we had left for one another, in three months of absolute horror.

If you want a contract... that's great.

But it's gonna have to be an iterative thing.

It takes a long time to build the contract of a marital recovery.

If it took three months just to sort out where one very small baby was going to spend her time, imagine what it'll take for two adults, a child, a bunch of physical objects, monetary considerations, who'll sleep where, what kind of intimate contact you'll have, how many dogs, cats, and goldfish will be allowed to join the family, etc. etc. etc.

The thing is, this negotiation is so hard because what you each want will change as you build trust between yourselves.

The negotiation process itself has to be a trust-building process.

There are different kinds of negotiations. If you're negotiating to buy a car, you don't need to build up a lot of trust with the person you're negotiating with. (When was the last time you trusted a car salesman?)

If you're negotiating for a raise, then you approach it differently -- you have an ongoing relationship with your boss that you don't want to poison by how you handle the negotiations. You want to maintain the trust levels you already have.

If you're negotiating for a complete change of lifestyle between two people who love each other but don't trust each other, then the goal of the negotiation is really different. More importantly than any single negotiated agreement is the importance of building trust. Which means negotiating fairly and honestly, and KEEPING your agreements.

Tough stuff.

You need an expert to get you through it -- I agree with K that coaching is in your future.

And you probably need someone who will stand you in front of a mirror and make you really look at your own actions. You're searching in Dylan for signs that she's willing not to hurt you anymore.

I want to know where the signs are that YOU are not going to hurt yourself anymore.

'Cause this deal with the dating and stuff? That's hurting your integrity a whole lot. It's a slow poison and tastes great as you swallow it... and it's gonna kill you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Affairs are not emotionally involving for me. But I do not slide back in without warning... My patterns are easily predictable. And if Dylan is scared that I'd do it again, well she has the power to interupt that pattern.<hr /></blockquote>Deut---that's cop out city. You are the only one who can change your behaviors. To blame it on what Dylan is or isn't doing is fooling yourself. My major frustration with you (and why I quote "smidgeon of integrity") is because you're not even coming close to dealing with YOU in a way that I think is reasonable. You have much, much, much work to do before you're suitable marriage material. That should be obvious---and apparently you recognize it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't want to be the only one jumping hurdles, cause then, when I don't make it, the fingers will still all be pointing back at me.<hr /></blockquote>Well, I don't think you should be the only one jumping hurdles. But it's pretty clear that you and Dylan aren't at a point to set the hurdles for each other and motivate one another in a positive way to succeed. That's why you hire Penny---she will be able to set the priorities for both of you to rebuild this mess. If you fail---you're right, you will have blame. If you don't attempt this, you'll fail too---and then your family will reap the harvest from this.

Put the fear, blame, and expectations aside and call Penny. Ask Dylan to join you. That's all you need to do---you know that Penny's goal is for people to be in intimately satisfying and sustaining marriages---but she'll have a much better idea of how to get the two of you there than you or Dylan do right now.

I really appreciate all your replies and concern.

I'm still very confused. I sure need to make some sense of all this. And your input helps me sort things out...

Still unsure...

But until I can gain some clarity, you should all know that:

I will not be pursuing intimate relationships with other women.

I will arrange for counselling with Penny (if Dylan agrees) as soon as our finances will allow.

Apart from that, for the time being I will just 'chill'...

take a step back and rethink all this...

Ark, Just J... really glad you're both here.

John

P has a sliding scale for folks who are in tough financial situations. How about e-mailing her now instead of later? Who knows? You might be able to swing at least some time with her sooner rather than later.

John,

Just wanted to let ya know that I'm keeping up with what goes on with you and Dylan. And I'm hoping and pray that you two do what you both know could be the only thing to save your marriage.

I'm glad to hear that you're going to stay away from other women. That's a good first step.

And as JustJ said...why not email Penny and see what she has to say about your financial situation. Maybe she can work out some sort of deal with you!

(((((HUGS))))) to you both!
Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just stopped by to check in. Thanks for answering my q.

It really seems to me that you & dylan want the same things in so many ways...I have hope for you guys.

Glad you are going to call Penny...and let me urge you do so ASAP. You guys need to get a plan in place NOW.

Kathi

First of all, thanks for dropping in...

Secondly, I can't really move on the Penny thing yet as a) I don't have POJA, b) I don't have the budget yet for even a sliding scale (stabilizing my finances will save me the cost of paying someone to tell me to stabilize my finances as part of my road to health and happiness), and c) Dylan and I have agreed to try and 'chill' for a week.

Truth be told, I'm not really 'chilling'. I'm stewing. I've also had a pretty rough couple of days IRL so I'm trying not to take my emotional whitenoise too seriously.

I've enrolled in a Bible course. I figure it'll get me out of the house yet keep me out of trouble. I might even learn something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So there's kind of an update...

Oh yeah... anybody know anything at all about relief for a pinched nerve???

ttfn,

dewt

[ August 31, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]

ice and ibuprofen.

And call Penny and get this set up, now (that's what kathi meant by "ASAP". What the heck is IRL?).

Ibuprofen... I will get some today. Ice, I already have. Thanks.

IRL => In Real Life... that thing which seems to go on apart from this messed up nightmare-fantasy.

J

dewt..
why do you need a poja for counseling??

what if dylan never agrees..

what if you believe her agreeing is committing to working on the marriage...
and what if she is not ready to work on the marriage...

what does that have to do with you?

dewt you know that sometimes we do good things for the bigger picture..
inspite
our spouses...

ARK the excuse terminator...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Deut,[the guy I remember]!!!

[Zippy enters board after excusing himself for not helping a long time buddy because he is busy playing Mr Mom and Nancy Nurse and finally gets a minute to himself to post].

Regarding the muscle pain, it's called STRESS. I've seen it before, ya gotta believe it coming from a DinoMedic, yes, someone in EMS for over 26 years.

Now, WTF!!! Duet? You guys have a third chance here at salvaging a relationship if my old mind is not failing, ok, well it is, but, that's besides the point. Not many of us were given a second chance.

I'm very happy with G and life, sure glad I met her, would I have been happy with Val if we would have been able to work out the speed bumps? I DON'T KNOW because I wasn't really given a second chance. [This is where you get the point, just say yes]

Bottom line.... Zippy's final thought, is Dylan and your M worth it? [Insert answer here]

I give my stepson the best advise I can and now you get it too. Life is full of choices. YOU choose freely, everyone has free will.

Dylan knows what I mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Tell her I said HI!!!

Do what ye will and harm no one.

Ark,

I need POJA on the counselling because it would involve Dylan.

If Dylan never agrees then we're sunk and we should just go our separate ways. And you're right, if she did agree to marriage counselling/coaching, I would take that as a sign that she wanted to save our marriage.

If she is not ready... I dunno...

What does that have to do with me? Well you said, "dewt you know that sometimes we do good things for the bigger picture... in spite of our spouses..." which I agree with, and tried to do, but we all saw how good I am at holding up lofty ideals all on my own...

Dewt... the excuse rejuvenator... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Tim, hey man, howya doing? I passed on your message to Dylan... she asked me to ask you to drop her a line at sacred_rain@yahoo.com

I certainly can accept your diagnosis of stress... (in the absence of stress relief, I'll settle for Ibuprofen)

Ya... the third chance thing... I do feel that it would be worth it, but if, and only if the two of us were seriously committed. Been through this for two long to have any hopes of only one of us being able to pull this all together.

Good ta seeya...

John

Deut---my friend of 1000 excuses

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I need POJA on the counselling because it would involve Dylan.<hr /></blockquote>No you don't. You need to let Dylan know that you would like to join her in the counseling, and you're making the appointment tomorrow. It'd be terrific if it was "mutually enthusiastic"---but it doesn't need to be so.

Hey Gang,

OK, anyone remember when we [ok, it was me, but, I got you guys interested] were trying to figure out who the Card Fairie was? I certainly do. Yeah, that was a while back. So, I'm old, I can still tie my velcro sneakers.

Well, it came to me in a dream who K actually is... [drum roll]

He is ..... Yogurt. Below is my research that backs up my theory.

Video tape evidence code name "Space Balls"

YOGURT: [really K] You heard of me?

LONE STARR: Heard of ya? Who hasn't of Yogurt?

VESPA: Yogurt, the wise.

DOT: Yogurt, the all powerful.

BARF: Yogurt, the magnificent.

YOGURT: Please, please, don't make a fuss. I'm just plain Yogurt.

LONE STARR: But you're the one...

YOGURT: Yes. I am the keeper of a greater magic. A power known throughout the universe, known as...

BARF: The force?

YOGURT: No. The MB Principles.

Just trying to lighten the mood. I had a tough day again, I'm fearing Mom is hitting the Alzheimers gig.

K, you really are someone that I truly admire and respect. I would have to say one of the cornerstones here. Chris123, WAT and more than I can name have really been an inspiration with the outpouring of advice and support. I am so glad that I found this site back in '99.

Sleaze ya later,

Zippy

Tim...

Boy do I remember trying to figure out who the Card Fairie was!!! Some of us chatted on msn and that was the "hot topic of the day!" LOL LOL

Speaking of her, have you or Gina heard anything from her? Just wondering!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey Tim,

Sorry to hear about your Mom. Mine is in the hospital, recovering after having a surgeon take a 9-iron worth divot out of her colon (diverticulitis). She's recovering great, thankfully.

Spaceballs... My kids love that movie.

Hey, I was never in on the original unmasking of the Card Fairie---so if it's not against union rules---spill it.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

dewt...

I need POJA on the counselling because it would involve Dylan.

no it doesn't ...it involves dewt learning how to be a "better" husband/father/partner/person/communicator

sounds like a good thing to me eh? (darn Canadians maybe that's why WE aren't "communicating well..that whole America/Canada barrier.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And you're right, if she did agree to marriage counselling/coaching, I would take that as a sign that she wanted to save our marriage.

well quit thinking that...
quit it
quit it

change YOUR perspective.....and see it as you two learning how to be NICE and RESPECTFUL with one another...if you can't master the basics...you can't master the bigger issues....

which I agree with, and tried to do, but we all saw how good I am at holding up lofty ideals all on my own...

yeah well that will fly with me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I tried...
I couldn't do it
poor me..
I quit

bllleeeeeeeeeechhhhhhhhhh

try again
try again
and then
try again....

you actually dewt have nothing to lose...
cause right now...you two don't have anything but a huge void and stalemate..
ya'll could live for years in that limbo..
blech...

Ark, Just J... really glad you're both here

still thinken that??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ark

Yeah... I'm still thinking that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

J

Hey Deut,

Sorry I went off topic last night, man, it's been tough here with Mom. I have the weekend off, her cousin is taking over for me with the meds and stuff. Just brought my puter down here so it's taking me a little to get it set up. Let Dylan know that an E will be on it's way soon.

Yo Mitzi,

No I haven't heard from the Card Chick since we left VA Beach. Boy, that was a cool trip. I have heard from Marsha thou. It's funny you mention that cause I came across the pics of N'ville this week and was just thinking how great it was to meet all of our MB friends.

Well K,

Glad to hear your Mom is doing well. Hey, who needs all those feet of intestines anyway? My younger cousin had the same operation a few years ago and she was only in her early thirties and a nurse to boot.

I can tell you who the Card Fairie is only because the statue of limitations has expired. Once she was revealed she was ousted from the union, so, the Card Fairie is/was Dawnetta AKA Butterfly.

I love Space Balls too, the kids know the script by heart. I was surprised at some of the stuff they got away with in the movie with that rating.

OK, so Deut,

so what's going on?

Deut -

So.... What are you really afraid of here? You've been an MB member for so long that your membership card wore out about a century before I typed on a computer for the first time (in 1978).

You know this about changing you. You know it's about getting your life in order. And you're still here.

Are you here just so we can all hang around with popcorn and Slurpees and watch the soap opera of your life? If so, hang on, I gotta go get a Slurpee.

If not, uhm, well, what's up with being here and standing there in stasis, unable to take the simple step of calling Penny? Really, look on her web site. Could someone that blond and cute be scary?

(Those of you who actually know Penny, shush. We're trying to de-frighten Deut, not send him screaming into the hills.)

Could someone that blond and cute be scary?

Uh... remember who you are talking to here...

Blonde + cute = trouble

I'm not so much into blondes, but playing it safe is good...

Ok, all kidding aside...

Right now, the only reason I haven't called Penny is financial. That's not an excuse. That's a reason and for the next week or so it will continue to be a very serious reason.

But, having said that, I wish to reafirm to you all that I will call her.

Because I know I need help.

Dylan is not the only one fence sitting. I have such fears and concerns and I cannot sort through them on my own. It's like a cyclone... thoughts and feelings swirling about, leapfrogging each other and coming back on each other till I don't know which way is up, down, forward or backward...

And I'd like to know... really I would.

Because if I had a course I could believe in, I know I'd be doing much, much better...

And I'm past the point where baby steps are going to be enough... I need solid, clear direction!

Tim, please, no worries about jacking my thread... it's all good. Just so long as we don't start exchanging recipes... (heheheheh, remember that?)

J, as to why I'm still here, (I only reg'd in 1999... in '78 I was still playing with GI Joe) I guess it's because I need to be. I need something to balance the overwhelming urge to cut my losses and run for the hills. Yes, my family is of supreme importance, but I feel like I've been running uphill for soooo long... I guess I just need to hear some pro-marriage voices to help keep me on track. If this marriage is not going to work, well so be it, but I don't want to look back and feel like I could/should have done more.

I dunno...

What the heck is a slurpee?

dewt

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Right now, the only reason I haven't called Penny is financial. That's not an excuse. That's a reason and for the next week or so it will continue to be a very serious reason.<hr /></blockquote>It's a reason... not a very good one, however. Penny would work something out for you, I'm sure. And if she won't---just tell her to bill me.

Seriously---make the call first thing tomorrow.

Hey K, thanks so very much for your kind and generous offer.

Dylan and I have discussed the matter quite thoroughly. She is going to email Penny herself and look into the sliding scale and also (I guess) wether coaching is a good place for us to start.

J

ALLLLL RIGHTO!!!!!!

Anyone and everyone, please keep us in your prayers tonight that all this gets worked out...

Thanks.

J

John..

Have been doing that and will continue to do so!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good deal, deut---although I'm guessing that you're just shifting responsibility to Dylan so that I don't bug you anymore... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep us posted...

um... er... ehhh...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

(really there's more to it than that, but that'll do for now)

J

Ok... got a few free seconds...

K... I did not pawn the responsibility off on Dylan so that you would stop bugging me. If I really really wanted to be free of your bugging, I'd just stop posting and reading here. Simpler. Less complicated. Fact is, even if I don't have a chance to reply, I check in frequently. Usually, 2 to 15 times per day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wanted Dylan to call Penny because the fact is what I need most... more than anything... is direction. And as much as I appreciate and see the wisdom in your counsel, the direction I need/want is going to come from Dylan.

I'm aching to exhibit good marital behaviour. Moreso, I desire a reason to exhibit said behaviour. And it's important that the reason have a point to it- not just be another elaborate setup to land me in a situation that I'm ill-equipped to handle.

I understand she's hesitant to commit to saving this marriage. Today, in an effort to step things down, make things simpler, relieve some of the pressure, I asked her if she would settle for being in a 'committed relationship' with me. She said no. Meanwhile though, if she's not willing to commit at least to that, then why is she expecting me to act like it???

I understand how it could be painful for her to watch me date and start building something with someone else and out of respect for her feelings, I've put th'ol kaibosh on the girlfriend thing - (though I'm still seeing her socially- just not intimately) but not for the sake of our marriage, soley for the sake of not being the source of Dylan's pain.

Anyway.... blah blah blah... John goes a ramblin on again...

The point is I asked Dylan to contact Penny because I was hoping Penny could at least help her decide which way she wanted to go. I'd be more than happy to join Dylan in recovery, counselling, heck, anything she wants...

But what the heck does she want???

I'm just not willing to go this alone... and certainly not willing to go this if there isn't any point to it.

So, meanwhile, yay... it's back to limbo-land for me... hoorah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

J

Good deal Deut!!!

Hey, um K... I could really use a hot tub for our M... can I have them send the bill to you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

oh, and a boat... too...

Doesn't have to be a big boat

Dewt,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm aching to exhibit good marital behaviour. Moreso, I desire a reason to exhibit said behaviour.<hr /></blockquote>Really? Truly?? Seriously??? Nothing I've seen out of you in the last few years indicates that this is true. Good marital behavior can exist in a vacuum---and you're not doing it.

Start. The only reasons you should need are because you're married and you have a child together. But---enough lectures for now. I can see why Dylan wouldn't want to "commit" to a relationship with you---you don't have a great track record of behaving well when things get tough. It's the same reason you "need direction" from her. Regardless---if the two of you can show up for counseling at the same time---I have confidence that you can work these issues out. But it's going to be work.

Why should you??? I was just at a co-worker's wife's wake yesterday. She was tragically killed in an auto accident. They have three kids who are all a couple years older than our brood. You never know what life is going to throw you---you don't always have the luxury of waiting until tomorrow. This women didn't---beloved wife, terrific mom, great teacher, community volunteer. There were hundreds of people there yesterday evening.

Medic---you need a hot tub and boat?? No problem... I'm going next week to a meeting to accept an industry award (complete with oversized novelty check). Only bad news is that the conference is in the path of Ivan---so it may get blown out of my hands before I get a chance to cash it...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

"Nothing I've seen out of you in the last few years indicates that this is true."

Well, of course not. It's not like I come here to post about all the great things going on... and neither does Dylan, for that matter. And it's not like I'm going to start up a list of all the terrific things I've done over the years. But please let me assure you that in many ways I'm a pretty decent man. And I have the potential to be even better. I do need some help unlocking that potential though...

[/b]"The only reasons you should need are because you're married and you have a child together."[/b]

Ok... but please consider that 9 months ago my Wife 'left me' for another person. And the fact that we have a child together wasn't enough reason for her to reconsider her actions. And, over the past nine months, she's been consistent in not wanting to approach reconciliation. And again, yes, I've given her plenty reason not to want to... but I've also tried to exhibit good behaviour and when that did happen, it wasn't acknowledged or encouraged... only overshadowed by finger pointing and ambiguity.

Gripe, gripe, gripe, moan, complain, whine...

Also, what kind of Dad do you think I was during her affair, when my heart was breaking and I was losing weight at a record rate. When I was insomniac and cracking at the seams... when I was falling apart and unable to concentrate at work or home... Do you think I want to return to that? How good a parent can I possibly be when all I really want to do is die, or crawl into a hole somewhere and never come out?

I tell you again... for someone maybe less damaged than me, maybe more mature or centered, good marital behaviour can exist in a vacume... but not for me. That vacume is soul sucking and like a huge fog machine for me. It clouds my thinking and makes the most insane, stupid things seem perfectly reasonable and rational.

I tell you again, I am capable of good marital behaviour, and am aching to be a good Husband. But this is NOT something I can do alone. It's not even something I WANT to do alone.

This marriage CAN be saved, but it's going to take the two of us!!!

I'm ready and willing to show up for counselling. All I'm waiting for is for Dylan to say/show the same.

Even the simplest statements from her can make all the difference. But if she's unwilling to take even those basic steps, how in the world can I be expected to put my heart and soul on the line again...

Again, I ask you, how can I be expected to put my heart and soul on the line again?

Believe me, I want to... but not if the only assurances I have are that it will be fruitless and painful?

And I know that we don't always have the luxury of waiting till tommorrow. I myself was in a car accident this winter, and was very lucky that I wasn't tossed through the windshield and killed outright.

I'm also aware that as this insane situation goes on, that daily the pain is deepened. I'm speaking mainly for myself here, but I imagine that it's the same for Dylan.

J

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm ready and willing to show up for counselling. All I'm waiting for is for Dylan to say/show the same.<hr /></blockquote>She's the one working on making the appointment with Penny. I would say at this point she's the one taking the lead...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Again, I ask you, how can I be expected to put my heart and soul on the line again? <hr /></blockquote>Because you want this marriage to continue. It is going to require a great risk on both of your parts to make this work. Believe me, I know this is hard and the thought of sticking your big toe in these treacherous waters is terrifying. You keep saying you need her involvement...well..she needs yours too.

Y'all are still in my prayers and thoughts.

VL/Jodi

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
 She's the one working on making the appointment with Penny. I would say at this point she's the one taking the lead... <hr /></blockquote>Uh... correction: she's emailed Penny to ask about the sliding scale. Nothing was mentioned about making an appointment. Not in her email, and not since. How much 'work' is involved in calling/emailing and setting a time and date? Particularily if you have offered to pick up the first bill? (which I soooooooo much appreciate, btw) Seriously. The 'work' involved in that is about... ohhh, 5 minutes. Plus about 20 seconds to tell me where and when to show up.

And, to just be clear, I'm not asking/expecting her to 'take the lead'. I'm just looking for an indication that we have the same final goal in mind. Direction. Purpose.

It's really quite simple, from my point of view. Just one simple statement of purpose. And then we can set off on this course together. Neither one of us has to take the lead. In fact, as I've said before, and to echo Jodi's statement, this is going to take both of us. We've tried before, alternating between one and the other, taking the lead.

See where it's gotten us? Forgive me if I'm not enthusiatic about more of the same.

John