WH coming over to "Talk" tomorrow - Marriage Builders® Forums

WH is coming over tomorrow to "talk". Originally, he told me he wanted to talk when we were discussing what time he would spend with the baby when she was born. I told him he could spend as much time with his daughter as he wanted, I would never deny him time with his child. But he said he still wanted to talk in person. I have no idea what to expect. His actions of late have been:

*He had given me three CD's
*He gave me a picture frame for the baby's room
*He gave me a book that he read and enjoyed (The Five people you met in Heaven)
*Yesterday he left me a funny e-mail to read
*He was off from work this week so he came over to the house and took care of the dogs so I didn't have to come home for lunch and do that
*He bought a new cover for our pool table
*He picked up the crib and changing table for the baby's room
*Last Saturday he came over and hung out for over 6 hours

His actions of late have been very positive, but there still is not R talk and he hasn't even so much as hugged me in months. I get the feeling he is nervous about something, I just don't know if it is good or bad. I am going to prepare for the worst (he says he wants a D) and hope for the best (that he wants to work on our M) but expect something in between. Everyone says actions speak louder then words, but we will see tomorrow...

I'll be thinking about you tomorrow. Who knows what he wants to talk about? He might say he wants a divorce, and then next week say he wants to reconcile.

Whatever he says, just remember (like everyone tells me), watch his actions.

Kloe,

Now take Ark's advice, and wear something sexy, act very charming, funny and sexy. Flirt with him and then leave. Tell him you are meeting friends and can't talk right then, but you would love to talk on Sunday.

Then leave...

leave him guessing
leave him wanting more
make him wonder what is going on with you

If what he wants to talk about is important to him than he will come back on Sunday after he has thought about the mystery of YOU all night.

I will be thinking and praying for you tomorrow. Hope your weekend goes well. Take care of yourself and that little one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow!
If mine did what weaver suggests (or Ark?) I'd be left all a flutter... and mine is a WW! (well FWW)

And that's a good thing, right Painter?

Thats what Kloe wants, "all a flutter". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Weaver

Hmmm,

I disagree tremendously with that statement. There is nothing wrong with trying to dress attractively for him, and to show him you are still hot! However, don't play games. THat is deceitful, and honestly, not what you want to establish in your home, especially with child on the way.

Biblically, we are told what adultresses are....they are (oh man, help here guys) deceitful, lying, cunning, snakes (?) .... while the ways of a wife are solid, stability, honesty, strong character... those are what you want to exhibit. Why make him wonder what you are doing? If you want to play games like that, it just makes me think of high school. Sure, you could go out on a date, and perhaps your husband might have a change of heart and come rushing home, out of jealousy? Man, no thanks. I can take being here, amongst all the misery and pain, on the hopes and promises of the future and the good it can bring. But, if you manipulate (that is what the Bible says, they are manipulative) your husband home, then, I think you set yourself up for a repeat down the road.

If actions speak louder than words, then you have your answer, be encouraged. He is showing you alot. I would just tell him thank you. Don't gloss it up, don't make it mushy mushy, just say thank you, it helped you out. He knows how wrong he is...just try to go on as if you are ok. I know that is a crappy spot, but, it sounds like it's where you are at. I think you are in a plan a? Definitely not plan b with him coming over...lol.

So, continue on with actions appropriate to plan a.

Hang in there.

Wow, RK, I sure disagree with you.

The usual ways of communicating with our WSs do not work. What you call deceit and manipulation and game-playing I consider just another kind of communication. When we are acting out of love in what we believe to be the best interests of ourselves, our children, and our spouses, I don't see anything wrong in it.

WSs are incapable of empathy, and rationality escapes them. When you are dealing with somebody in a state like that, you reach them in the ways you think might work.

I'm not very articulate about this, but oh well.

Kloe, good luck tomorrow.

GC

I think Ark's methods are more about mystery and making the WS think, rather then being deceitful or manupulative. It's about planting the seed of doubt in the WS mind that you will always be there waiting for them, because we won't always be there. Plus I don't think WH would buy I was dating, seeing how my stomach is getting bigger by the hour and I can barely stay awake past 10 pm!

Well, absolutely nothing. WH came over around 5 pm but had his/our 4 year old nephew with him, he is babysitting until 9 pm. We watched some football and that was nice. We are both big sports fans; although we were rooting for opposite teams - I like Michigan, he likes Notre Dame. Towards the end of the game he asked me a few questions - Do you think I should take 6 weeks off after the baby is born? I said that's up to you. He then asked what my parents would think about him being around. I told him that it is his baby too. He asked if they hated him. I said he probably was not their favorite person but they didn't hate him. He asked if they knew why he left and I said no. He said something after that but I couldn't hear him and then our nephew interupted. He later asked if I was going to take a lamez class and I just shugged my shoulders. You need a partner to take those classes and I don't have one.

I really didn't feel comfortable talking with our nephew sitting right there, so I hardly said anything. We were able to laugh some and watch the game and it was nice, but once he started asking questions I just wanted to cry so I didn't say much.

So I guess that was the big talk that got us nowhere and now it's back to the same old. Some days I just think it would be easier if he just came out and said he wanted a D and got it over with, I hate living in limbo.

kloe - Well these things happen a lot. My WH came over to settle our financial arrangements, and would not agree on anything. Then he asked me why I wanted to talk to him about things. The funny thing is that he called me to set up the meeting.

So this is how they think.

Kloe,

Do you think maybe you are being a little too passive?

Why don't you just come right out and ask him if he wants a divorce? Just because the words are said does not make it so, and just because the words are unspoken does not make it so either.

I really think you need to open up some honest communcation here, otherwise what is the point?

Don't let your fear paralyze you. How can you fight something when you don't even know what it is your fighting?

These are just my thoughts on this, so take them with a grain of salt but I think your continual silence might be counterproductive. It is not only about what he wants, what he feels, it is also about you feel and what you want.

Weaver - You are absolutely right. I am paralized by fear and need to get over it. I tried this week, I reached out to him to see if he still wanted to talk. He said he did and we set up the time for today. But then he had our nephew with him and I couldn't talk openly in front of him. He is going to the Redskins game tomorrow and will be there all day so I won't be able to talk to him tomorrow. I should just call him now and ask him to come back tonight, I don't know why I don't.

I also wanted to say, don't listen to me, I just feel very frustrated for you, and it bothers me to hear you say that you wish he would just ask for the divorce and get it over with. You don't even know if that is what he wants.

It sounds so defeated, and so not you, as I read you when you post to others, your posts show how caring and very smart you are.

Weaver

We were posting at the same time.

Just don't underestimate yourself and what you are to him. He needs a little push, in my opinion.

O-k I have to do something or I am just going to let my M slip away while I do nothing. Then I will always have to live with the knowledge that I was too scared to do anything.

Here is a letter I have typed up and I am going to send to WH:

We still need to talk, but neither of us seems capable of making the first move. You seem like you want to say something to me, but I don’t know what. I don’t know if you are afraid of hurting me or afraid of what I will say. Obviously not being able to communicate about difficult issues is our biggest problem. But I can no longer let my fear of what you might say keep us from talking.

Maybe it would help you if I told you where I stand. Despite everything, I still love you and want to make this marriage work, but this is not something that I can do on my own. And I can not live like this forever. I want us to be a family again and I am willing to do my part to make this happen. The problems we have are not insurmountable and we can get past the mistakes of our past, if that is what we want and are willing to work towards.

If this is not what you want, we still need to learn to talk. We are going to be parents and have to be able to communicate for the sake of our baby. If we can’t talk now, I don’t know what we will do when she is born. You asked me today if I was planning on doing Lamaze. I didn’t know how to answer you. I want to do it, but to do Lamaze you have to have a partner and right now I don’t have a partner. You asked me if you should take six weeks off after that baby is born, but you never told me what you wanted. These are the type of things we have to talk about, we can’t just ignore these things.

So let me know when we can sit down and really talk.

Kloe,

I think that is a very good start.

Thanks Weaver that is what I needed to hear, I just hit the send button. WH has a Blackberry so he will get the e-mail shortly.

Here is his reply:

Maybe we can go out after work one day next week to talk. With "nephew" there today and being in the house makes it difficult.

I am bad at communicating, but will promise to talk to you next week.

I'll know my schedule for the week on Monday.

I DO want to take the six weeks off to help take care of the baby and you if need be. If I need to take any longer, I can do so.

We can talk more about everything next week.

Have a good rest of the weekend

I still don't know if this is good or bad, but at least it's something. I just can't keep going in limbo for the next three months.

This sounds good Kloe. Well done.

GC

Kloe, here's a rule that you have to remember always, always: do not allow fear to guide your actions. Learn to take it out of your decision-making at times like this. Just say goodbye to your fear and do what you have to do. You'll change so much by doing this, and you will raise a child that will be guided by your example.

GC

I'm not going to even comment until you have the conversation with him, then there will be more of an idea of where his head is right now.

Kloe, I know this is hard for you but I strongly recommend that you get everything out of him that you can in this conversation even if it is like pulling teeth.

I have been reading everything I can read from Cerri (aka Penny Tuppy) and I think that once this happens you should contact her at SYMC and get some coaching. She is incredible, and if my ex and I ever make it to recovery I am going to go to her for coaching, even if I have to take out a credit card to do it.

I know that one way or another you and baby girl will be happy, but it would be wonderful if you could be in recovery with your WH during the last three months of your pregnancy, before she is born.

I am really rooting for that for you, as I know everyone else here is also.

Weaver

Thanks guys. I know I need to be strong and not guided by fear, easier said than done. I've always been a conflict avoider. I'm just back to feeling so horrible today. Plus my birthday is next Saturday and I am alreadying starting to dread that.

Hopefully, I'll feel better after church and maybe my Redskins will win the season opener for me!

We will be meeting for dinner on Thursday at a Pizza place by the house. We'll see how it goes. I want to be hopeful, but it just doesn't seem good. I know his actions say one thing but I'm afraid his words will tell me that nothing has changed and he doesn't want to come home. I don't know what will be worse, knowing or not knowing.

Kloe,

To me nothing would be worse than not knowing. How can you know what you are dealing with if you stay in the dark? This is your life kiddo!

Just remember that we are behind you every step of the way, you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

I guess my ignorance is bliss policy just isn't going to cut it anymore. I know I need to be strong on Thursday and I will probably hear things I don't want to hear. However, if we don't get them out in the open we can't deal with them and move on, one way or another.

Kloe, be calm, cool, helpful, understanding. Don't be afraid to tell him how his A has hurt you, but don't dwell on that either. Let him direct the conversation once it gets going.

You know the routine. Compassion and self-respect, in good balance. No fear, sister!

GC

Well tonight is the night, I'll be meeting WH for dinner after work. Any last words of advice?

Kloe, I think you will be surprised, after this talk, no matter which way it goes, at how much the "unknown" has been sapping your strength and energy. The more my conflict-avoider H shares with me, giving me his honest opinion (not just what he thinks I want/need to hear), the more I realize how much the unsaid can rob from us.

My handle here, Spider Slayer, came about when I physically faced my worst emotional fear - being alone, without a partner, for an undetermined amount of time. The night I stopped panicking, took matters into my own hands, and realized that I was going to be fine no matter what, was a HUGE turning point for me. I let the fear go.

Isn't it so silly how we can fear something we don't even know for sure? He might do this, he might do that.

My H took me out to a very nice lunch, that I couldn't even eat, to tell me he was sure he wanted a D. Then he came home a month later. And my story is not atypical. It is the norm around here.

You did excellent, IMO, by sharing YOUR feelings with your H. When he was over that day with "nephew," his questions seemed to me to be probing you for information, for where he stood. Asking if your parents hated him. And reply about talking, he said 6 weeks to take care of the baby, and you if needed. He could take off more than 6 weeks if needed. This sounds to me like someone who definately has his head in the game, your game, not someone else's.

I remember how excited I was the first time H did a house chore, when he started hanging out around here more. He fertilized the yard. No biggie normally, but his head was in the game again. And it made me smile.

So, go slay something, and let the fear go. Just think of it all as a "wonderful learning opportunity." That is what our MC always says, and most of the time when he says it I want to rip his head off! BUT, when I am calm, it sounds much more encouraging. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Go into that pizza joint tonight with peace, love, and compassion in your eyes. It sounds to me like he is afraid of hurting you. Show him you can take it, you are strong, you can get through this with him - together, as a team, as partners. He is scared too, I betcha.

My thoughts and prayers are with you tonight.

SS

Thanks SS, I was hoping you would reply. I always get such encouragement from your posts. He really does seem to be coming around and I put it all out there so he has no excuses. He called yesterday with what seemed to be some made up question just to confirm for tonight. I guess I'll know soon enough. If it's not too late when I get home, I'll post tonight and let you know how it went. Take care.

I just got home and things went alright. After dinner we sat outside at the restaurant and really talked. He says he is just not ready to come home. He knows when/if he comes home it will take a lot of time and work and right now he is so busy at work that he doesn't have the time to put into our M that he would need to. He also said that he was afraid that he would hurt me again and couldn't come home until he knew he wouldn't do that again. He says he knows he made a mistake. He also said he was worried about it being awkward around my parents and family. I told him that I was responsible for myself and my choices and he couldn't let that guide his decisions. I also told him that yes it probably would be awkward around my parents at first (but they don't know about the A) but they have never intereferred before and won't now. They want their grandchild to have a father.

I asked him if he would consider going to counseling now before any decisions were made. He said he just didn't have the time right now. I know he is extemely busy at work right now; however, I think this is just an excuse he is using. I did make it clear that him coming home would not be as simple as him saying he wants to move back in, that we would need to go to counseling and do some of the work first.

He is very frustrated with his job and that was hard for me to talk about. I make enough money that we could live on my salary alone but I told him I didn't want to go there because it seemed like a bribe. He has been at his job for 16 years and it is all he knows. I told him he has a lot more skills and opportunites then the he thinks he does. He is talking to two of his friends this weekend about a business opportunity, but without me he doesn't have the money to invest. I also told him that if we got back together I don't know how comfortable I would be with him staying at his current job since that is where OW works and he said he knew and has considered that.

He did admit that he does think about coming home. But he says one thing that he likes now is he doesn't have any responsiblities, he can work as late as he wants or go out (but he says he doesn't do that much) and then go home when ever. I told him that is because I have to take care of everything and that is hard for me and getting harder.

I did a good job listening, I just wish I knew how to better draw more out of him. I tried to ask some questions and that did open him up a little but I just couldn't think of enough questions. I teared up a little bit but didn't lose it. When we left he did give me a hug, something he hasn't done since June 23rd (our anniversary). He'll be coming over this weekend to do some stuff around the house. My birthday is Saturday so we'll see how that goes.

So we seem to be at the same place we were before, but I know a little more about what he is thinking. It's just so hard, I miss him so much.

I just checked my e-mail and had the following message from WH:

"It was good to see and talk to you tonight. I'm glad we started to talk about "us" again.

See ya later. Good night."

Kloe, that's wonderful. Don't sweat whether you questioned him enough. Maybe that was a GOOD thing.

He said all the things his recent actions suggest. But I think you should be careful not to get carried away in your efforts to reach out to him. Draw him to you the same way you have been. It's working. No need to turn up the volume, even if you're getting impatient.

Maybe it was the cookies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

GC

I am so glad you posted tonight! I have been checking in, looking, waiting. And I have to say, this is soooooo dejavu! Or however you spell it. This is almost exactly how it went for me and H in the very beginning. Of course, ours was louder because we are, well, very emotional creatures, and a bit freaky. BUT, I see all good, Kloe.

Especially the follow-up email from him. Hm. His wheels are turning. It is wierd. My experience of my H's behavior during that time, is that he HAD to say some of the things that had been swirling around in his brain for the time we were separated - but it wasn't necessarily how he really FELT.

These are the positives I see: He has been thinking about coming home (this is HUGE! IMO); he has been contemplating how to make money from a source other than his current employment (where the OW is); he doesn't LIKE his current employment (where the OW is); he is thinking ahead, of the future, with the awkward moments between relatives and friends, whether they know of the A or not, it is a bit awkward; he realizes he hurt you, badly, and wants to make sure that doesn't happen again. This last one is kind-of double-edged, though. IMO, it comes from a sense of guilt. My H, even when he first wanted to come home, didn't, because he felt that he didn't trust himself to not hurt me again, and didn't deserve to come back home. That is an issue he had to resolve on his own - with a LOT of help from IC.

The positives I see from you are: You are being open and honest about YOUR feelings; you have set clear boundaries (agreeing to IC and/or MC before him coming home); you are overall an excellent MBer, and an awesome girl, and I think you have a great chance of recovering your M.

Keep those communication lines open. When he comes over this weekend, wade into the R talk again. It doesn't seem to be taboo to him anymore. He said so in his last email to you! Talk about the 6 weeks off, maybe talk to him about lamazze (sp.) class again. Perhaps, since you couldn't think of questions on the spot, write some down tonight, tomorrow, so you might remember them at an opportune time. We know what happens to short-term memory of expectant mothers! One of the Step instructors at my gym is 5 months along, and we'll be 30 minutes into the routine, and she all-of-a-sudden cannot remember the next callout. We all just kind-of stand around, staring blankly at her. It is so funny.

Keep posting! I will be checking in tomorrow and Sunday to see how it's going. We are going camping at a hot springs with the Scouts this weekend, the family. I'm looking forward to being away with my H and kids.

SS

Thanks SS. His e-mail did throw me for a loop. It all seems good, but I can't get my hopes up and then come crashing down so I'm just trying to take it all in stride. I'm going to call the hospital tomorrow to see if any of the lamaze classes are available and then see if WH wants to take the classes with me.

Have a great weekend camping with your family. Hopefully you'll have nice weather; however, I remember how much fun WH and I had camping in the rain one time. Just enjoy being together!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It all seems good, but I can't get my hopes up and then come crashing down so I'm just trying to take it all in stride. <hr /></blockquote>Kloe, you are so wise. I get so excited, but there are no guarantees. I just remember how SURE Believer sounded about my chances way back when. She saw hope, she believed H would be back. And it lifted my heart, but I also didn't think it would happen SOON. I was ready for the long-haul, I tell ya. She likes to say that H came back chasing ME! And it did happen fast in my circumstance, and I was very scared. Excited, but scared.

You are right to temper hope with reality. I personally thing the Lamazze (sp.) class-checking is a great idea. Your H might really be interested in doing that with you, since he brought it up first. It was his idea! Might just be his round-about way of letting you know.

Listen to GC. He is wise also. Definately keep doing more of what you are doing. I remember one day my H said that he was thinking of inviting me to lunch with him and the boys on one of his weekends, but then thought it wouldn't be a good idea. After I told him I would have liked to have been invited, he invited me to dinner that night with him and the boys - in fact, that very night, we ended up watching a movie in the theater near the restaurant we ate at, the boys fell asleep in the van on the way home, H was driving . . . it was wonderful. We were totally platonic, H thought he still loved HW, just friends, but it was familiar. Driving the same roads we have for years, listening to the same music, in our family vehicle, soothed my soul.

Literally, about 10 days after that night, H came about 90% out of the fog. Have hope, Kloe. It does happen. Have hope.

SS

Hi Kloe,

I'm at work but came on to see how it went last night. I have to say I am a little bit annoyed at his continuing lack of committment, or maybe it's better to say lack of desire to get back into the marriage. He is too willing to float along in limbo land. The total absence of passion is troublesome too and I don't mean just the sex part.

The others are right you can't and shouldn't push, however I think a little taste of what life would be like without you might be just what this guy needs. And I also think that if you are going to Plan A, you should start to be a little more seductive with him.

JMO

Take care Kloe and have a good weekend.

We all know what you think, weaver! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just kidding.

You've had less patience for the WS lately, and I'm extremely glad you're here expressing that. There's enough righteous indignation to go around, but it usually comes in the form of anguish, sadness, and disappointment. I love that you're here to point at our WS and shout,

"J'accuse!"

Thanks for that.

Kloe, how do you think the impending arrival of his first child is affecting your H's motivation right now? I think I know the answer, but I'll let you give it if you want.

GC

It shows heh Gray? I'm trying to watch myself but I am leaning towards the tough love theory more and more.

Anyway Kloe, please call the Harley's or Penny Tuppey to get some advice here. We can support you and give our feedback but I really think you need some coaching from Harley, Jennifer or Penny.

Weaver - I think the guilt is what is preventing him from moving forward. I honestly think he is having a very hard time coming to terms with what he did. He has always been known as the good guy, that everyone could look up to and count on and now that image has been shattered. I think he is afraid that no one will ever see him that way again. This are his inner demons that he is going to have to work out before we can move forward. I just wish he would agree to IC/MC.

GC - I ofter wonder how things would be different if I wasn't pregnant, but everything happens for a reason and there is a reason we were given this child at this point in our lives (PG was planned after trying off and on, due to job situation, for two years). So I don't allow myself to dwell on this too much.

I know this is something he is wrestling with. He has said many times that he doesn't want to come back just for the baby. He also told me that people at work tell him that once the baby is born he won't be able to stay away. He said he doesn't like the fact the people would say he let me go through the whole pregnancy alone and then just come home when the baby is here. I pointed out that he can't be guided by what people think about him. He says he knows this but can't help it sometimes.

I think he desperately wants to do the right thing, but just can't come to terms with what the right thing is.

WH came over on Saturday and gave me a small birthday gift and a card. In the card he wrote "Hope you have a great day. Love, WH" Don't know if it means anything that he signed it "Love." He only stayed for about an hour. He made some passing comment about talking more but that was it. He stopped by today while and put the babies crib together. Again he only stayed for about an hour. As he was leaving he told me to give him a call if I needed help with anything.

He's too busy to be a married man....

"right now he is so busy at work that he doesn't have the time to put into our M that he would need to. "

He's too busy....

hmmmmmmm

something about this remark really bugs me....

can't quite put my finger on it....

we all must make priorities in our life...

we put the more important things first....

I would explore this further if I were you....

He sees you as somone who might be worth his effort in the future if he's not too busy....

The implied other side of this is ... he assumes you are not " too busy" to wait for him....

The imbalance of this attitude will not make recovery pleasant.... if you ever get to recovery....

Please let me know when you hear this from his lips:

I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to save our marriage."

Have you got a timeline in mind?

Set your goals independent from his, coz he's too busy to be a married man right now..... sigh

Pep

Pep - I know what you mean. Since I am pregnant it's not like I can move and and he knows that. I can't/won't make any decisions about my future until the baby gets here. His statements about being too busy bothered me, because I know it's just not true. I just don't know what to say or how to respond to this.

kloe72:

I read your thread and it sounds like you are on the verge of getting him back. Good Luck. Once the fog lifts, the WS's wonder what they were thinking!

TooSoon

I sent WH an e-mail this morning letting him know when lamaze classes were and asked him if he wanted to go/had time. He said he would go so I signed us up. They will start next week.

My Grandmother is moving to the area next weekend. She has hired a mover but still is bringing quite a bit of stuff in her car. Neighbors will help load it at her end but we needed someone to help at this end. I asked WH if he would be willing to help and he said he would. So he will have to see my parents on Saturday, we'll see how that goes.