Your experiences in Anti D's or St John's Wort

Marriage Builders

Folks I am interested in any MB'ers that have persnally tried using or know of people that used St John's Wort instead of Anti D's. I'd like to know if
1. They ended up onthe Anti D's anyway and how long they took to work?

2. Or if St John's Wort worked and how long?

No point prolonging the problem if in the end I need to go on the Anti D's anyway huh?

Been a slow learner cause they scare me but I am starting to catch on.

Regards - RMan

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
 Folks I am interested in any MB'ers that have persnally tried using or know of people that used St John's Wort instead of Anti D's. I'd like to know if
1. They ended up onthe Anti D's anyway and how long they took to work?

2. Or if St John's Wort worked and how long?

No point prolonging the problem if in the end I need to go on the Anti D's anyway huh?<hr /></blockquote>R-man - just a heads up - I tried St John's Wart, for several months once (I suffer from clinical MDD) - didn't do a dang thing. Still was hiding with the curtains closed, doors locked, and afraid of phone calls - OK, I'M A LOONEY, JUST SAY it!!!! Hee hee. Went thru several A/D's till I found one without the side effects that were worse than the effects of the med. A/Ds don't work right away, it takes time for then to start affecting you positively - expect 4 - 6 weeks of steady improvement. If you read back thru my posts, you'll definitely see a stronger, more honest, and humbler man than what I started out as.

The side effect to the one I'm taking is just fine - affects SF, and since I have no one to share SF with, I'm perfectly happy. THEY DO WORK. You start to think with more clarity, you are able to work more rationally, etc. I'd still advise them: try Lexapro first....

David

[ February 15, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]

You can try Sam-e initially.

Tried St. John's wort for a week once. It had no effect at all.

Lexapro has no side effects for me and has kept me out of the bad, bad, dark place I didn't want to stay.

I was very hesitant to go on ADs. I thought it would make me dependent, meant I couldn't handle things on my own, might have nasty side effects, would make me a zombie. All BS!

GC

Grey is right - they work amazingly, and you don't stay on them forever - even with my condition, I only have to take them intermittentl - a few months on, a few off....y

And they will help you get thru this....

If you live in the US you will never be able to find a high enough quality of SJW to do you any good.

The rule for herbs is one month for each month that you have had the symtoms, from what I can remember.

Say you have been depressed for four months, then after four months on SJW you should feel some improvements. That is if you can get a quality of the herb that still retains the needed active ingredients. Not likely in the USA.

You need something that is going to balance out your brain chemicals RM. Once they are out of whack you need chemical help, from what my doctor told me, to level them back out.

Lexapro short term worked for me. I did experience side effects after three months so went off. However they were well worth it to me while I took them.

RM, it sounds like you are very chemically depressed. I started to reply to you before about what I experienced before a complete nervous breakdown when I was 27 yo. I remember feeling alot of what you described. I refused help, tried to commit suicide and then spent three years climbing out of that hell hole on my own.

It would have been so much better if I just took what the doctor wanted me to take. I think it was called Elevil, or something like that.

I was on anti-d's 2 times (if I remember correctly) for 8 months each, during the worst times during my H's main A. I was on Elivil which is an old anti-d...it made me very thristy all the time. Then I was put on Serzone which has since been shown to not be safe(liver failure). Psychiatrist kept upping the dose because I was still not sleeping through the nights.
They do tend to level you out emotionally.

The last time I experienced the trauma of my H's last A, I used homeopathics and also Sam-e (which has the added benefit of being good for joints). Sam-e has been proved to be a mood enhancer. (I have also used natural Kava Kava root occasionally.)

But, if your symptoms are severe and you aren't helped by Sam-e or homeopathics then it sounds like Lexapro or other anti-d without the is worth using. I just never liked having to take the anti-d's. I did so out of desperation because I felt my body was shutting down and I would die without help. You know when you are at your limit. I was nauseous, couldn't eat, had lost too much weight, and couldn't sleep very many hours at a time.

I didn't want an anti-d that effected sexual desire.

Since it usually takes a couple of weeks for anti-d's to start to work it wouldn't hurt to try the other remedies as well. You could ask your Dr.

But, I don't think St. John's Wort works.

[ February 15, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]

I've heard of Sam-e....they make some pretty bold claims....it's a natural herbal thing.

Anti-D's....sometimes you have to switch several time until you find the right one...that's a pain.

Tried cipramil after d-day. Made me shake and cold sweat every morning and gave me panic attacks. yuk

I have used passiflora incarnata ( passionflower) in the past to control IBS during bouts of stress and it worked very well, but only after a coupla of days useage.

Its available in tablest called " natracalm" in the UK.

Very mild though. Wouldn;t think it would fix clinical depression.

As far as homeopathics, I've used Kali Phos. 6X at night to aid relaxation and help sleep. I've also used a prep. called Hyland's 'Calms' which contains the passiflora as well as others of nerve tension and sleeplessness.

During the day I've used Ignatia Amara.

Lexapro Lexapro Lexapro

(Its predecessor, Celexa, saved my life.)

Been on 'em twice, clinical MDD.

Not on 'em now. Don't need 'em anymore.

Just don't stop all at once - whee! Dizzy spells!
Wean off very slowly.

Lexapro doesn't take the feelings away, they just keep the feelings from taking *you* over.

When you are depressed, even situationally, like during an A, certain neurotransmitters get out of balance. It is chemical, and can be shown on a PET scan. Lexapro directly corrects just that problem, and you get over the hump. You can function, and not let the hell-on-earth beat you down. And you don't stay on them the rest of your life.

It is a miracle drug. Seriously.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, so if possible, get to a good psychiatrist who knows his/her neurotransmitter stuff. Be sure he/she is up to date on the latest in depression medication. They will have you fixed up in a jiffy!

Tiger

I just read that the Homeopathic called Aurum Met (200C) is helpful for depression:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Aurum Met, Aurum Metallicum, is helpful for depression, emotional stress, PTSD, loss of self worth, and stress. Sadness. Aurum Met can be helpful for worry and anxiety accompanied with palpitations. John of Placerville, CA writes in his testimonial of how Aurum Met helps to "even out irritability, anxiety, and moodiness". Natural Care company includes Aurum Met in their Anxiety formula with this information,
"This natural mineral is particularly for people with profound loss of self-worth, and where everything is perceived through a veil of worthlessness and hopelessness, where nothing seems of value or meaning and which often occurs as part of alcohol or substance abuse.
"This remedy is usually quick in helping to return a sense of worth to one's view of themselves and their surroundings.
"For guilt complex, worry, melancholy, vascular hypertensive erethism, violent palpitiations with congestive flushing in the head and chest."
The Dictionary of Practical Materia Medica lists under Aurum Met, "...Nostalgia, hopeless, feels that all is against her, the least contradiction excites his wrath." Causes are listed as grief, anger, disappointed love.
Fatigue in mornings, fevers, congestion. Aurum Met is from the mineral gold." <hr /></blockquote>Everyone may have different symptoms so it is usually best to read up on what these things are good for and find what may work best for you.

[ February 15, 2005, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]

Sam-E is as said to be as effective as many anti-d meds.

Its widely used in other countries and supposedly a natural chemical made by your body (so less of a chance of complications)

RM, I am short of time today - dentist @ 2.30 and have to swim my daily 2ks before I go under the drill. <squirm>.

I personally think a/d's mess up the proper cycle of post affair bonding. sex is really important in the process as in absolutely imperative - and a/d's and sex don't go well togehter.

St. John's Wort was great for me. First lot I took was crap but second brand was excellent.
I had side effects from it though so had to stop it - but this would not be a problem for you. It was a female thing.

Even better for me has been something I chanced upon at the health food shop when trying to buy a B complex for my shattered nerves. I am over the moon about this stuff and my daughter (a doctor) who is prone to depression (who woulnd't be working in a cancer hospital?) finds it gives her a positive out look about life and loads of energy. For me and our encounter with infidelity I have felt like I'm the remedial kid on MB's and have felt suicidal and no point to living for 2 yrs. Except when I took St. John's Wort and now this new stuff. I bought the vit B complex and didn't comprehend it was laced with something called Siberian Eleuthero. This herb is dynamite. I personally think it's a magic bullet. Look it up on the internet. It's a form on gingseng (siberian gingseng) and geaz 1.2 billion chinese can't be wrong. The Chinese are huge into gingseng and now I know why. It's just brillint for you state of mind and energy levels.

I think it's an American product but I buy it in Hong Kong where we live (I'm an Aussie). It's on the net though as I looked it up when I started to feel so good - I started wondering what the hell I was taking. Espeically look up about Siberian Eleuthero.

This is the best $20 approx you will ever spend. I only take it every second day - though it says 2 per day I am high it taking it on alternate days. My husband can tell you that the change in me is unbelievable. I have stopped and started it a few times now and I know I'm not imagining it.

OK *********Nature's Way B- Stress Forumla with Siberian Eleuthero*********

Start it one every second day - and if you are fine on it move it to one per day. There's a lot in the bottle so it's very economical. I want some other feed back on this stuff because I swear it's giving me my life back. I have absolutely refused to take a/d's. Just bloody minded I guess. But I knew from past experience that sex would go out the window if I took them. Btw the gingseng is also good for reving up libido!

Anyname

Alternatives to anti-depressant AND herbs can be found in studies by Dr. David Servan-Schreiber in his book The Instinct to Heal.

It isn't hokey-pokey and it is well referenced.

An example of his alternatives is running. There was a study conducted between groups of people suffering from depression: those who took anti-d's, those who ran, those who did nothing, and those who did both. The group who used running (only) reported the same benefits as those on anti-d's--and those who used both.

For those "non-runners"--the running only has to be 15 minutes 3 times a week (if I remember correctly). Anyway, some of the participants had never run for exercise and one was even a smoker--who apparently overcame chronic depression.

Anyway, I recommend the book highly!

I took Zoloft and for the first week I was a zombie but once my body got used to it...it really helped. It did numb my feelings...I don't know if I liked that though. I'm not taking it now because I want to feel everything and go through all the pain now without masking it. Just my choice.
I've never tried St. John's Wart.

I have never used A/D's & never considered them because of the side effects and the problems coming off of them.

What works for me is a product called Happy Camper. If a good quality natural supplement doesn't do it for you, it's better to address what is causing the problem ( could be metobolic, environmental, nutritional)

D.

During my first depression episode I used Cipramil (20 mg). It work wonders for me. The only side-effects I experienced was a slight change in my libido and sleeping pattern during the first 3 months â€“ nothing major. After 8 months of use, I weaned it off and replace it with some natural and homeopathic remedies. However, I never tried St Johnâ€™s Wort (the homeopath said it wonâ€™t match with my blood type). The natural remedies only helped for a while and after 5 months the depression returned. I was put back on Cipramil (30 mg this time) and I use it chronically now since there is also a history of depression, anxiety and OCD on both sides of my family (genetic). I use it chronically for almost 2 years now and never looked back!

Personally I think natural solutions can only work for a while and then the effectiveness of it will start to take off. Itâ€™s definitely not a long-term solution.

Suzet

[ February 16, 2005, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

I've used St.John's Wort for several years. When D-Day hit I went on some AD about a month after. Zoloft. It worked better. Didn't stop the pain, but did stop the crying jags and the anxiety attacks.

SSRI anti-depressants simply reduced my desire to do anything; I became more apathetic and less motivated (something I definately don't need). Not to mention the gastrointestinal side effects.

What needs to be considered concerning anti-depressants, both herbal and pharmaceutical, is that the research is inconclusive in terms of their assistance in clinical depression. Some studies have shown that they show no greater recovery rates than placebo, which may be logically explained, in that most cases of depression are temporary and abate on their own. So, while you may be "feeling" different on anti-depressants, this does not mean that they are speeding recovery any faster than un-medicated recovery. This is not a defense of "toughing it out" and rejection of medicine, it is simply looking at the information regarding the science. If the medication makes you "feel" better than you must decide if this is for you.

Most of us have experienced the dramatic mood and perspective altering effects from the trauma of infidelity, but this abates in time. Just as the passion and addiction of affairs diminish, so does pain. The body simply restores homeostasis; it can't run at full speed forever (I wish I could retain the appetite suppressant activity of trauma...better than any amphetamine, Metabolife, etc.).

As for SJW, the problem with this product is the variability in the key components: hypericin and hyperforin (there are other compounds that may assist, but these are the most studied). For herbs, the best are always standardized extracts. In the extracts, the manufacturer has attempted to recover the important components and dispose of the filler and bulk. Also, most labels, for legal reasons, low ball the dosage required to be effective. One or 2 SJW caps a day won't cut the mustard, probably more on the lines of 3-8 a day, depending on the person. NOTE: SJW is not compatible with some medications as it alters the metabolism of some drugs. Check the Internet for a list of drugs that should not be taken with SJW.

SAM-e has alot of anecdotal evidence in terms of mood elevation, along with some decent scientific research. But it can be pricey.

Some other potential mood altering OTC products are Chocomine: an extract of chocolate which contains a greater concentration of PEA (phenylethylamine), theobromine, and anandamines. Alot of raves about this product.
Phenibut (Gabatropin): a GABAergic compound, acts on the pathways of the benzodiazepines (Xanax, Valium, etc.) Passiflora and Valerian: both have compounds which act on the GABAergic system. Theanine: an amino acid from Green Tea, which boosts dopamine levels while also altering GABA levels. People report increased focus but being more relaxed. Green tea is just about one of the best "food" products for human health.

I, personally, have come to prefer the natural consequences of life, whether it is pain or pleasure -this does not mean that I don't like to alter my mood sometimes. I just don't prefer to numb myself to something that I need to persevere through. If you are religious, here is my perspective: When God tests you, he doesn't play around. My life has had more challenges than merely my spouse's affair. Why they accumulated now is not my question to solve, my task is to push through and be a better person. If you are not religious, here is my perspective (they are not mutually exclusive): "life is". I can't wish it away, nor can I reject the consequences of my actions. We all see the consequences of our spouse's actions, and for us to claim that "two wrongs makes a right" is just as foolish. The effects of our actions exist and we will either benefit or suffer, so I choose to benefit as much as possible, instead of suffer more.

Welcome to the board Micro. You know more than the rest of us about drugs eh? With SJW I suspected it was a phytoestrogen - as I have a strong family history of breast cancer and prolly have way too many estrogen receptors in my very lumpy dense breasts and they started to act up pretty bad when taking the second brand of SJW. I could really tell the difference with the second brand though. First time I felt positive about anything in eighteen months. But the breast pain was so bad I had to stop them. The pain abated a couple of weeks after discontinuing the SJW.

I mentioned Siberian Eleuthero to RM. This product too acts like a phytoestrogen for me. I can only take it sparingly and even then feel I'm being unwise to take anything that is reactive with my beasts. But I will not take A/D's. I have a theory about sex and recovery from infidelity. I think taking a drug that inhibits sexual function is counter productive to the rebuilding and rebonding of a damaged relationship. Short term gain but at the risk of serious long term loss. (though for a very long time I wanted the escapism of paxil et al)

I do heaps of exercise - at least 1.5 hours per day sometimes more. I found exercise took the edge off my insanity but barely. I did not imagine the second course of SJW being useful. I was quite taken aback at the positive feelings I experienced. (it was like geez I feel happy - how weird!) Interesting that you say that time will sort out our emotions. Of course two years is the rule of thumb. For romance and for grief and for change. Does two years represent our contrentration span perhaps? What about if you suffer from OCD? I think at the 2 yr mark (give or take a few months either way) you start to have more control over what you think about. I have heard the explanation as to why we stop eating from the shock of infidelity - something aobut the blood supply to the stomach being diverted to accommodate the stress in other regions of the body - e.g.the bowels! The emotional upheaval doesn't recover as fast as the stomach does unfortunately.

Anyway, hope you hang around. Your perspective will be useful. Lots of different viewpoints here. And a lot to learn.

anyname

Thank you for all the excellent feedback. I guess that the message is as follows - If I am stubborn and want to try SJW, Kava root, Ginseng, etc, or other natural alternatives, then good quality products are the go. Not the cheap and nasty ones(although not always easy to determine).

Having said that, I have been taking a product produced by "Bioglan", called St John Wort 1800mg. It has the following ingredients:

St John's Wort 1800mg
Passion flower 120mg
Goyu Kola 75mg
Ginko 200mg
Green Tea 100mg
and some 17 pico grams

Been taking it it 3 times a day for 5 days and I am not sure if it's my imagination or what, but I have been feeling a bit more able to cope.

I had a really hard word long work day yesterday and I was able to make it through.
Backed up today for a very painful Joint MC session today and after about 3omins seemed to recover quite well.

If this does not last or the gloomy feelings come back, I will have at least given the natural stuff a shot.

I have this posting now so I should be able to print off as a reference. Thaks again !!!!

:::: If this does not last or the gloomy feelings come back, I will have at least given the natural stuff a shot.

RM, the supplement you are taking sounds good. I think you should expect some gloominess on it because nothing, not even brown medicine will work all the time. e.g. apparently on the placebo list, brown nasty tasting medicine works better than white pills but an injeciton works best of all! God we are pathetic aren't we? Anyway, even on SSRI's you would experience off days re dealing with infidelity. It sounds like your choice of supplement is good though. And knowing where you are at, any sense of well being, is really welcome yeah?

I think it's good to have discussions with others in this situation. Pretty much everyone who's been a BS knows exactly how you feel. Some of us have had it go on longer than others. I think it depends on our emotional make up, our health, our circumstances at the time it occurred and our level of belief and trust in our partner. I have to confess that I've felt quite irratated with people who've blown it off relatively quickly - mainly because I didn't have a clue how to do that. I was in the deepest pit for a very very long time. I just wanted to die and have all the sadness stop.

I am terrified to even report feeling better (2 yr 3 month mark) I felt so crap for so long I hardly believe that I might get on top of this without a frontal labotomy. I think that new poster micro (now can't remember his name) summed it up by saying our emotional energy re any trauma is finite. We run out of steam - though we don't think we ever will - something eventually changes in us and the intensity of the pain begins to dull. This is of course, if the problem is over and not ongoing.

I'd be most interested to hear whether the supplement works out. It would be good to build up a list of people who've done well on alternative medicines.

An

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by anyname:
 Welcome to the board Micro. You know more than the rest of us about drugs eh? With SJW I suspected it was a phytoestrogen - as I have a strong family history of breast cancer and prolly have way too many estrogen receptors in my very lumpy dense breasts and they started to act up pretty bad when taking the second brand of SJW. I could really tell the difference with the second brand though. First time I felt positive about anything in eighteen months. But the breast pain was so bad I had to stop them. The pain abated a couple of weeks after discontinuing the SJW.[/b]<hr /></blockquote>After looking up the research on Pubmed, there is a component in SJW called biapiginin that binds to the estrogen receptor, so there may be some estrogenicity in SJW. The anti-depressant mechanism is derived mainly from hyperforin's ability to modulate numerous neurotransmitters: serotonin, GABA, dopamine, acetylcholine. It is an all around neurochemical booster.

Your experience with different brands is not strange, it is almost common in the supplement industry. Depending on what manufacturer and what ingredients they use, can be the difference from -well, working and not working.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I mentioned Siberian Eleuthero to RM. This product too acts like a phytoestrogen for me. I can only take it sparingly and even then feel I'm being unwise to take anything that is reactive with my beasts.<hr /></blockquote>While Eleutherococcus is not a true "ginseng", it may have an inherent estrogenicity as the ginsengs do. It seems a rule that nature favors estrogenic compounds over androgenic, most probably as a defense mechanism (estrogenic compounds interfere with reproduction, thus plants have less offspring to worry about consuming them).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I will not take A/D's. I have a theory about sex and recovery from infidelity. I think taking a drug that inhibits sexual function is counter productive to the rebuilding and rebonding of a damaged relationship. Short term gain but at the risk of serious long term loss. (though for a very long time I wanted the escapism of paxil et al)<hr /></blockquote>Sounds logical. I wouldn't want to inhibit sexual feelings during reconciliation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do heaps of exercise - at least 1.5 hours per day sometimes more. I found exercise took the edge off my insanity but barely.<hr /></blockquote>I have had great success with exercise as a means to alleviate stress, but unfortunately, this time I am not able to do so. It is a definate goal of mine, but my present situation prevents this. Shame, because, this was my original addiction, and it would benefit my mental and physical health.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Interesting that you say that time will sort out our emotions. Of course two years is the rule of thumb. For romance and for grief and for change. Does two years represent our contrentration span perhaps? What about if you suffer from OCD? I think at the 2 yr mark (give or take a few months either way) you start to have more control over what you think about.<hr /></blockquote>My statement was more aimed at the constant worry, uncontrolled thoughts, anxiety, fear, etc. that occurs after the initial trauma, not so much how one deals with the trauma. From my own experience, the physical effects diminish, allowing the mind to anesthetize itself to the situation. This to me is when the potential for accepting divorce as personally beneficial becomes most appealling. This is when the person must truly struggle with the idea of taking back the WS vs. walking away. It is no longer clear cut as after the trauma, when the BS wouldn't consider anything but save the relationship.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have heard the explanation as to why we stop eating from the shock of infidelity - something aobut the blood supply to the stomach being diverted to accommodate the stress in other regions of the body - e.g.the bowels! The emotional upheaval doesn't recover as fast as the stomach does unfortunately.<hr /></blockquote>Hunger is regulated primarily in the brain. If I remember correctly acute trauma elevates CRF (corticotrophic releasing factor), which has potent appetite reduction effects, along with other effects on brain neurotransmitters: dopamine and norepinephrine. I am a narcoleptic, who has to take Adderall or Ritalin to stay awake. I didn't have to take anything during those days. I couldn't sleep.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[b]Anyway, hope you hang around. Your perspective will be useful. Lots of different viewpoints here. And a lot to learn.

anyname <hr /></blockquote>Been reading and learning alot. Wish I would have found this site 2 years ago.

micro - you posted

"Been reading and learning alot. Wish I would have found this site 2 years ago."

I agree but my version would be

"Been reading and learning alot. Wish WS would have found this site 2 years ago" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

:::::::::::: I have had great success with exercise as a means to alleviate stress, but unfortunately, this time I am not able to do so. It is a definate goal of mine, but my present situation prevents this. Shame, because, this was my original addiction, and it would benefit my mental and physical health.

Micro, A lot depends on how badly traumatised you are. I was really badly affected e.g. my ability to eat small, regular meals took at least six months to achieve. I was already slim but the weight loss had everyone asking whether I was seriously ill. I kept swimming but to get enough energy for it I drank Coca Cola. I wasn't eating well enough to sustain exercise without the short term help of corn syrup.

Before this hit, my H represented complete happiness and security for me. I had already been severed from my Jehovah's Witness family 20 yrs earlier for leaving their religious fold - so I concentrated on my husband and two children, and then to discover that my H could be so stupid/cruel was more than I could handle.

Plus at the time my mother was dying of breast cancer, and I had to move permanently to Hong Kong to protect my marriage from the 26 year old economic preditor who had caused my H to choose unfaithfulness after 30 yrs of being a great husband. The girl lived next door and still does and to cap it all off SARS broke out in a hotel a few streets from where we lived. I was on and off flights to Australia sometimes wearing masks for the false security they provided - and hoping I wouldn't get SARS because in my state I wouldn't have had much immunity and dying in a Hong Kong hospital of SARS was a very solitary experience. My daughter, a doctor had gone off travelling god knows where as the west invaded Afghanastan because of terrorism and my son was making really heavy work of university in Australia and needed more support than his parents behaving like children. I felt totally out of control. Swimming may have helped - but I'm not sure that anything helped - I was at the mercy of the process. I know I cried thru a lot of laps- and yes, you can blub away under water - no problem. And people think your goggles have caused your eyes to get sore.

::::::::: My statement was more aimed at the constant worry, uncontrolled thoughts, anxiety, fear, etc. that occurs after the initial trauma, not so much how one deals with the trauma. From my own experience, the physical effects diminish, allowing the mind to anesthetize itself to the situation. This to me is when the potential for accepting divorce as personally beneficial becomes most appealling. This is when the person must truly struggle with the idea of taking back the WS vs. walking away. It is no longer clear cut as after the trauma, when the BS wouldn't consider anything but save the relationship.

How far into this are you? I remember wafting between total determination to stay married and desperately wanting out of it. It's hard to fight long held beliefs that infidelity should result in the termination of a relationship. I still believe that but it's not what I did. Somewhere in the process anger takes hold and by the time I was finished with that (am I finished with it?), all I wanted was to block everything out and pretend. H said he'd give me everything - so money wasn't an issue, but at age 50 I had no inclination to meet another man and find love (whatever the hell love is). I'd been with my H since I was 15. And we got on extremely well. Yet the thought of leaving him had certain appeal.

You sound like you have rationalised a lot of your experience almost standing away from it and examining it from a distance. Not a bad thing if you can manage it.

::::::::: Hunger is regulated primarily in the brain. If I remember correctly acute trauma elevates CRF (corticotrophic releasing factor), which has potent appetite reduction effects, along with other effects on brain neurotransmitters: dopamine and norepinephrine. I am a narcoleptic, who has to take Adderall or Ritalin to stay awake. I didn't have to take anything during those days. I couldn't sleep.

Sleep? What's that? Your explanation about loss of appetite is interesting. I'd heard a different explantion on one of those BBC programs - think it was called Love Hurts. But, I'm sure you know how half baked stuff on the tellie can be?

Thanx for your most interesting explanations about the various supplements. There are some wonderful minds on here - far smarter than me. I hope you learn a lot and benefit from the discussions with others who have been where you are. IMHO understanding is the key to acceptance - though sometimes I think denial is the desirable state of mind.

an

Quickly, my experience with SJW was probably positive. I am very susceptable to suggestion, however, so who knows how much "placebo effect" I was benefiting from. I stopped taking just 2 weeks ago and haven't noticed "coming down" from the effects.
Several comments... I think I finally started feeling better with myself when I was able to stand back and view the whole thing from the perspective of a third party. I, like AN, started intensive workouts...until it hurt, badly. The endorphine rush was a good healer. Not to mention the great abs lol.
I, like most, lost a lot of weight ... down to 129 from 145 lbs. I think the decaying adrenaline in your system affects your ability to eat/digest/stomach food. Haven't we all tried to swallow something and then ...
The one thing that helped me was finding a "soulmate" who I could talk about my feelings with, the way I used to be able to talk to my W. We (she's a woman who has gone through the same situation in reverse in the last year) have been able to joke with each other and prop each other up during darker moments. I don't think I'm in any danger of falling for her.
I'm at the point now where no matter how much I love WW, I'm not allowing her actions to hurt me anymore.
It's been a very tough 6 months though!