Hi
I am new to this forum and I’m completely lost at this time. My wife and I have been separated for one year and 9 months. At this time we still do not have a formal separation agreement. We have a 3 year old daughter( who is a gem). The reason for our separation was because of my sexual indiscretions. We lived together for 3 years before we were married. We got married in 2000 after 2 years of marriage for a period of about one year I got involved with escorts. I guess at the time it seemed like a no hassle way to have an affair, no strings attached. Sheesh what an idiot. Well anyway I could go into a lot more details but overall our relationship was one of envy by our families and friends.

I love my wife very much. I want nothing more than to work through this and earn my wife’s trust and build our family stronger than it ever was. Over the course of the separation I have been there to support her through and for whatever she needs. I have begged and pleaded with her to participate in some kind of counseling but that has been to no avail. There have been periods of time where I have been to her house every night for 3 or 4 weeks straight, just hanging out eating dinner watching movies etc. There has been however no serious sexual contract during this period. During this period she has done some light dating with 4 or 5 different men. Of course she hasn’t told me this. Its amazing what other people will tell you. I know this lacks a lot of details but I hope you get the picture. Keep in mind that over this period she has never given me any indication or commitment to work out our marriage. So let me get to the latest situation.

Three weeks ago I spent Thursday evening with her. We had some wine and hung out in the hot tub laughing and carrying on. Of course after the second bottle things got ugly. She began berating me and degrading me over what I did . I would understand this if this wasn’t the first time this had happened. This scene has been repeated at least 20 times over the period of separation. Friday morning I called to make the usual arrangements to pick up our child for the weekend. I told her that I had enough. She had a separation agreement drawn up about a year ago. We never formalized it because there were some things in there that I didn’t agree with. It has been lying dormant for all this time. I told her that It was time to move forward with the divorce and that she please get me a copy of the agreement so we could get this done. She agreed. Well Friday evening comes and she hasn’t gotten me the copy. Sunday when I drop off our child still no copy. She ask me to stay for dinner and hang out with her and that our child wants me to stay to play with her in the pool. Of course she is being much nicer now. We get together for the next 4 evenings just doing the regular family stuff. But come Thursday she goes on another date. Now (lol) I’m done. I told her that being around her and doing these family things is only building me up and tearing out my heart when it ends. That for the last time I wont do this anymore and we need to move on. It wasn’t my weekend fathers day but I made arrangements to pick up our daughter in the morning to take her to breakfast and the park. When I dropped her off my wife asked me to stay, her family was coming over and she said our daughter would like it if I stayed. I did. She then got in the hot tub for most of the evening drank lots of wine while I took care of our daughter. After putting our daughter to bed I came back down and she was naked in the hot tub. I made some slight moves toward her but they were rebuffed. After getting out of the hot tub our daughter woke up crying she was having a rough night. Since she was so intoxicated she asked me to stay the night on the couch. I did. Our daughter was having a rough night sleeping so she brought her into her bed. She then called for me to come upstairs and stay in the bed with the two of them. Monday I took off work and stayed the day helping her hand pictures clean the pool cut the grass etc. The next night she then went out on a date. I know this is long and lots and lots of info is missing. But my question is
DO I GIVE UP?

Its clear she is afraid of being hurt again. I'm not the best to give advice from a BS point of view. It looks like there is hope, why give up?

^ Bump for experienced MB'ers.

If a person NEVER QUIT when the going got tough, they WOULDN'T have anything to REGRET for the rest of their life.....

I just dont know what to do. Im I there too much? Is it the saying "Let it go if it loves you it will return"(something like that}. Do more ,do less, do nothing. So confused

Days

Welcome to plan B.(maybe)!!!

First piece of advice is to spend a bit more time poking around the site and learning the concepts and the difference between plan A and Plan B. There actually designed to get your wayward spouse (WS) to commit to the M but there is no reason I can see that it won’t work in reverse.

You’ve been unknowingly in plan A for nearly 2 years. Doing nice things for her, meeting some of here needs, building up her love for you. Read up on it and see if your plan A needs any tweaking.

Plan B is when a Betrayed spouse (BS) lets the WS live without them, while still being pleasant if and when any interaction occurs. The object is to let them see that the grass is not always greener.

Sounds to me like you threatened a Plan B and she came around. (Slightly)

Let’s see what others say but my thoughts lean toward a plan B. Sit her down, or better yet write her a letter laying it all out. How the current situation makes YOU feel, what her actions do to YOU. Don’t make it about what she’s doing wrong, just about what YOU are getting from it. Explain that you want the M but can’t keep living like this and all ties except for interaction with or about your GEM is all there can be unless she changes her mind and decides it’s worth trying to save the M. The way it stands today she has her cake and gets to eat it. Your meeting certain need for her, home maintenance, child care, company, available for special appearance with the folks, yet she gets to date.

Words of caution, plan B is an ultimatum and ultimatums are bad no matter how nicely you wrap them. Never threaten what you can’t or won’t do. (This is why I really recommend you understand the concepts around here first.) Heck buy the book and read it first, you’ve been at this 2 years, what’s a few more weeks.

More caution. Yes it’s been 2 years but as you have seen she has not processed her anger and figuratively you are still pond scum. If you do end up back in the house you’re going to have be prepared to digest some of her rage for a while.

A question for you. What have you done to improve yourself and make yourself worthy of her, Counseling, self improvement, anything?

It can happen..

Oz

I think the real question is do you WANT to give up?

I'm no psychologist, but it sounds like your W is punishing you by going out on dates, being sexually provacative then rebuffing you and asking you to be with the family and then not letting you get close. Also, if she is seeing other people while she's still married, there's a term for this behavior: revenge affairs. I'm not telling you all this to upset you even more but rather to let you know that this is actually a fairly normal reaction from a BS towards a WS/FWS. It's like if you were punched in the face, the first instinct is to hit back. That's her defense mechanism.

So, it goes back to the question - do you want to give up or make it work? If making it work is your choice, then you need to act quickly - before you lose all your love and patience with your W. There is much you can learn from reading the section on Infidelity on this website and to hear from the many wonderful people who have experienced the same thing on this forum. So, start asking the questions!! If you truly are willing to do what it takes to get your W and family back, we'll all help you out! Just keep in mind that it may be a long-term process. Someone very wise once said to me that rebuilding a M is a marathon, not a sprint. I'm the living proof.

Just remember this - you are NOT alone in this. Many others have been through the EXACT same thing and have survived and are onto brighter futures with their spouses. On the flip side, it does take 2 to tango. You AND your W must be committed to making things work. The good news is that even if she's not quite ready for it, there are ways to help her along. We can all help coaching you through that.

So, what's your decision?

Whisper- No matter what she has said or done over the last well almost 2 years has yet to put a dent in my love and attraction and affection for her. Evey time I see her I fall in love with her again. Everytime I see our daughter and were together laughing and playing I fall in love with her all over again. So I guess my answer is No Im not giving up.

OZ- I was in counseling for about a year. I have offered to open up any parts of my life she wants to see ie. cell phone records, bank statements etc. Im trying to show her that im living a very normal lifestyle and that I'm happy with who I am. That my indescetions of the past will never happen again and continue to show remorse and regret for what i did.

Oh and btw I called my therapist yesterday to blow off what I was feeling and ask what he thought. His response was "I can understand how this upsets you it must be dfficult". Im looking for a new therepist now.

Begin at the begining. How did you get into this mess? Who did what? Opinions are like back pians...every one has one...what you need is a quaified opinion and to give you one of those it takes input. So lets get it all out on the table so folks can give you their best. OK?
Coach

DGB -

I'm SOOOO happy to hear your answer! With this, I agree w/ Coach. Let's hear the whole story so that we know how to help. Like I said, we're here for you!

Coach and Whisper,
What do you mean the whole story can you give me a little more insight into what the whole story would contain.

I did read more into the Plan A and B. It seems almost ridiculous for me to assume the position of the BS when I was the WS.Im so confused.

DGB

Days,
I don't think anyone meant you should assume the role of the BS. Plan A or B can work for a wide range of situations.

However, if you want to get technical you are still married and your W is dating. Seems to me that you could fall on both sides of the fence.

I'm glad to see you have gotten some counseling and made positive changes. I'm betting your W has noticed, she's just still hurting.

Oz

"can you give me a little more insight into what the whole story would contain."

>What were the circumstances that caused you to seek an A w/ an escort service? What made you come back? What have you done to convince your W that this wouldn't happen again? Why do you think your W is dating other people?

In the meantime, I do agree w/ Oswald. Start reading up on Plan B.

Well i guess i pulled the trigger on plan b well sort of. Her birthday is tommorow night and I had plans to take her to a nice restaurant for dinner. Guess I'll still do that.I had our D this weekend it was fantastic. W called all day Saturday just wanting to chat. Plans were to drop off D Sunday evening but she called to asked if I could bring her Monday morning, an older couple who are friends of ours almost like a step mom and dad, real nice people, wanted to take her to dinner for her b-day. What she failed to mention was that her new interest was comming over the house after dinner. I wrote a nice letter stating my intentions that I will honor and respect any decisions she needs to do and that I will continue to be devoted to her our D and my self improvement. But it is impossible for me to have any contact other than the necessary for our D until she decides that the rebuilding of our M is her first priority.

I also have made 3 seperate appointments with sexual addiction counselors(3 because I want to find someone i am comfortable with), she doesnt believe that this is a problem that I can control on my own. Well maybe she's right I've had it under control for the last year and nine months but I guess she needs to see more from me.

Anyway gave her the letter today. b-day dinner tommorow Plan B starts the next day. I hope i can commit to this.

Just a side note. WE still dont have a formal seperation aggreement. Though over the course of the last few days she has mentioned some of our assets we have together and that she thinks she has the right to them. Wants me to sign some aggreements separate from a formal aggrement giving her the rights to those assets.She says by signing it will give her some reasons to start trusting me again. ME thinks im being swindled. Keep your friends close and you enemys closer. Man we got a long way to go.

"gave her the letter today. b-day dinner tommorow Plan B starts the next day."

>Is this a smart thing? Meaning, you will have broken the 1st rule of Plan B if you take her out for her B-day. The hard thing about Plan B is sticking to it, and somewhat letting go of someone whom you love and care for deeply. B-Days, anniversaries, holidays & other special occassions will be exceedingly hard, but those are the times when she (hopefully) will reflect on your love the most. Having it "right there" when she needs it most will only reaffirm for her that your love and support will always be there, regardless of her actions. Just something to think about.

"I hope i can commit to this."

>You can. It's very hard to wrap your head around the Plan B concept when you love someone so much, but just keep in mind what you're trying to accomplish. Hopefully, that will keep your "eyes on the prize" and not give in.

"ME thinks im being swindled"

>I'd definitely take any contractual agreement that you sign w/ some caution right now. Until she's out of the fog, your W is not in her right mind. She's only thinking of herself, so just be careful what you agree to - since you're somehwat in a vulnerable position right now.

Thanks whisper, I agree with the timing of implementing plan b. I guess I dont feel real commited to it. Just seems odd, me the WS. Most days I feel like I should be there to do whatever she wants or needs, no matter what she is doing.Comming from a Catholic backround with all the penance stuff jammed into your head it gets quit confusing. It seems Im being manipulated most of the time but I know if I've done everything possible and if it all falls apart then I can face each day knowing I did whatever I could.

As far as legal docs I will stay away from that stuff.

Its full speed ahead with plan b. Dinner plans were canceled , on her part. After the letter she got very upset told me since I was the one who had the SA's that I had no right to question her and the should can do whatever she feels with whomever she feels like doing it with. I dont know maybe she's right.

I get so depressed reading all these treads and what the BS's are willing to do to rebuild their marriages. WOW the WS'S have no idea how lucky they are and that they are valued that highley

Ceremoniously I have deleted her contact info from my home and cell phone. LOL.

My goal is to have no contact with her until she wants to talk about reconciliation. One day at a time.

Her reaction to the letter is quite natural. Feel free to post & vent any time. This is going to be tough, but you can do it. Just hang in there. And, whatever you do, be sure to stick with it!!!

BTW - some of us FWS do very much realize how lucky we are to know the sacrifices our BS made for us. I know I don't deserve it, but I'm so thankful that my H waited and was willing to take me back.

Good luck to you,

Hey whisper
I should have said "I hope the WS's realize..." not "The WS's have no idea..."

I know in my brain this is what i have to do my heart is another matter. In looking into the future the hardest part is the diminished contract with my DD.She is the light of my life.Oh man I think I'm gonna cry.

Keep in mind - you've NOT diminished the contract w/ your daughter. No matter what, I'm confident you'll continue to give her the love and support that she needs. To me, the worst-case scenario is if you and your W can't work out your problems and stay married (unhappily) for the sake of your D. I was one of those kids who had to witness and tolerate the anguish, pain and emotional abuse b/c my parents thought it'd be best to stay together for my brother and me. I still have deep emotional scars that affects me and my decisions to this day. I wouldn't subject any kid to that!

Under the circumstances, what you're doing is the best thing possible for your daughter - you're sending the message that 1) it's important to compromise and work on the M and 2) you will not condone an A 3) individual happiness shouldn't be sacrificed. Isn't that what you'd tell her if she was caught in the same situation?

Don't beat yourself up too much. Your daughter will understand when she's a little older.

Thanks Whisper,I used to go over the house 3 or 4 times a week just hanging out with the W and DD ,that has stopped. I guess I'll go to pick her up instead and go to the park and stuff.


Day 2: seems like its been a year. Use to call and talk at least once a day was never really productive though. Didnt call at all yesterday but she did in the evening put my DD on the line we chatted well sort of. She's 3. She asked me to take her to the zoo lol. W got on the phone and wanted to chat about the things I'm doing to impove myself. I dont think she really cares its just a smoke screen. Well it's not my weekend to have my DD but I hope she will let me take her to the zoo though. Im sure she'll want time to be with the OM.

My stomach is in knots

DGB -

This is what I wrote when I finally came out of my fog and returned to my H 5 weeks ago ...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2734797

I share it to give you hope. If you read some of my earlier posts, you'd never believe that I'd write something like this. (I certainly didn't.)

With that said, let's talk about Plan B for a sec. Why are you still talking to your W? Unless it's to let her know when you'll be picking up your daughter or that you need to resolve some bills/household necessities (which you can also send via email), I'd suggest that you cut everything off. Let her miss your phone calls for once. Let her feel the loss. That's what WS's need to get over the fog. Keep in mind, you're doing this for HER and for your family!!! Keep your goal in perspective at all times, and it should make the tasks seem a little easier.

"W got on the phone and wanted to chat about the things I'm doing to impove myself."

>This is her way of staying in control. Don't let her have the upper hand. Yes, this does sound like a game. The name of the game is called Plan B. When she baits you like this, just say your goodbyes, or, better yet, let her know that you've got something to do or somewhere to be. Can't talk right now, etc. Get caller ID. Screen her calls. Unless it's an emergency, wait a day or 2 then return her calls. Let her wonder. I know the last thing you want is to play games, but, again, keep your eyes on the prize. Re-read my post a few times if you need to give you hope and focus. Plan B is hard. You can do it!

Well Whisper your right. It is HARD. I did well. only contact was to confirm pick-up and drop-off of DD. Pick up was sat 5pm drop off mon 10am. This was completly confirmed Fri evening. All day saturday my home and cell phones were ringing guess who. Did no answer. I did call back at 4 to let her know i was on my way. Asked why she called so much and she said she wasnt sure of the plans. Whatever. Truth came out later when she tells me that DD shouldnt stay at anyone elses house just mine. That was rather confusing to me I asked her what she meant. She thinks because I am taking our DD on my off weekend that i must have a GF with kids and thats why I want to take her. I told her its alot simpler than that. I just want to see my DD without seeing her. Took DD to the zoo sunday. all day sun WW was calling to see if DD was having a good time. Finally called her back in the evening let DD on the phone. Told her to stop calling and seeing what were doing. If she really cared she would figure out a way to be with us then she would know.
Sunday night she stay over at the OM's house. OH well Im sticking too it though.

Week and a half into PB, I think the inevitable will be DV. The thing about PB it actually can help on both ends of the spectrum, Reconciliation or Divorce. By detaching yourself you start to realize you have to live your own life without your S. Everyday it becomes a little easier. Not a lot easier but a little each day. Plan B prepares you for the worst(divorce) but has the potential for the best(reconciliation).

"She thinks because I am taking our DD on my off weekend that i must have a GF with kids and thats why I want to take her."

>Something to keep in mind is a WS is usually the most self-conscious, jealous person around. Meaning, they know what they're doing is wrong and thus they tend to project the guilt (and suspension) onto their S (or anyone they care about). My recommendation is next time she calls and asks, just let her know that your DD is not staying with anyone else, but what you do on your own time is not up to her so long as she's keeping up the A. She gave up that right by choosing to stay in an A. In some instances, jealousy and confusion can play to your advantage. I know it certainly shook me up when I found out my H asked a girl out on a date when I was in my fog. Makes me shudder just to think about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"The thing about PB it actually can help on both ends of the spectrum, Reconciliation or Divorce."

Yes. You're now seeing the value of a good Plan B. It is true. Not all M are salvageable. Detachment does help in either scenarios.

Not to repeat the history here but I was the one who orginally strayed in our marriage. I have been fighting for 1 year and 10 months to try and save our marriage. I'm having alot of trouble calling my W the WS . With that said though there is still no formal seperation agreement but considering us to still being married seems like a joke.

I had our DD this weekend and we had a wonderful weekend. The drop off though proved to be very difficult for me. After saying my goodbye to my little angel I asked her to give daddy a hug and kiss. She did and I turned to walk out the door. Now my DD will be 3 at the end of july. She stopped me at the door and said Daddy you need to give mommy a kiss. I reluctently kissed her on the shoulder. After that i turned to leave and she stopped me again and said Daddy you need to give Mommy a hug. My W did give me one of those patronizing pat on the back kind of hugs. The coldness and unemotional response from here hit me like a ton of bricks

I found out later that evening the OM was comming over the house. WIth that info and the events earlier in the day I lost it.

I called told her I didnt understand what we were doing that this stagnet life was killing me and I wasnt going to do this anymore. I told her that it was time to formalize the seperation agreement and proceed with the divorce. She got how should i say it well kinda pissy said I must be PMSing and if thats what i want then fine.

Now that was yesterday(Sunday). This evening around 5 she called In a frustrated kind of voice she said that her and our DD were going out for pizza and our DD was upset I wasnt going. I went (sheesh im a sucker). Now here is the part that really stunned me. As were eating I look up and around her neck is an old gold chain on the chain was a gold band. Something I have neve seen her wear.I asked what that was and She turned it and it was one of her wedding bands. She said it looked nice on the chain. Yea sure.

Just another occasion to MIND **** me.

Ok back to the worse execution of plan b ever

Im out

Yep, I agree, Mind******* going on...

I know, you can't think of her as a WS...I'm here to convince you otherwise.

When you had multiple A's and in the throes of the SA, it hurt the M. Took love out of the M. There was neglect. The aftermath has been a repentant FWH and a BW that feels entitles to do whatever she feels like. She has D you in her mind, how else could she rationalize going out on dates while you are STILL M? There has been a turn of power...she feels she has the upperhand, because you have done wrong it entitles her to all the assets in the M, DD, and she can fool around as much as she wants. She is having fun, and she has it all...her BFs and you to hang around with...why would she want a separation? This has been going on for over a year, she's used to it, and it enables her to have her cake and eat it to. She knows she can control you with that guilt...anytime you get out of line she can mention your past indiscretions, or how your DD misses you and YOU come running...

What needs to happen is for you to be VERY firm with her about what she is doing is wrong...she is NOT allowed to date without the M being over. She is having an A. She has had an A everytime she has been on a date. She will argue this and say she's allowed...but she is not...

Until she stops dating, there will be no reconciliation. Write her a letter telling her there will be no reconciliation until she stops dating and ends all contact with her BFs.

Thank you Still,

I wish I could free myself from this guilt and love I have for her. Even knowing about the BF's hasn't cut into the desire to work out our marriage. I can hear the response now if I tell her there will be no reconciliation until all BF's end. Basically **!

I cant let it be about her this needs to be about me now. But I am the biggest sucker in the world.

God please give me strength.

Im out

Is this the catholic guilt?

You DON'T deserve the way she is treating you. And I'll bet she is not happy with the way she is behaving.

So what is your plan. I've read where you are cutting out the LB's, and how has hte need fulfillment been going? It's not enough to just BE there unless you have been fulfilling her top 3 EN's (or the ones she has let you). If you are confident you have been doing that over the past year (or even few months) I would say it is time for Plan B.

The longer you stay in the situation, the more concret her actions and behavior become...them ore she thinks she can cake eat AND reconcile a M. The more she will try to convince you she wants you to visit AND she wants to go out on dates...

And now it sounds like she has dated enough that she has found an A partner.

It is NOT OK for her to date while she is still M...no matter how close she thinks you are to a D. She needed to legally end this M before moving on... She IS a WW.

Have you ALWAYS thought she was better than you?

Wow! you know what I never looked at it that way. Guess by my actions I'm showing a very insecure person. I need to get it together and put an end to the abuse.

Thanks Still

The reason I ask that is because there was a very poignant thread on "In Recovery" a while back where many of us began to agree that we thought the A started because the WS, for whatever reason, felt unworthy of the BS. Almost as though..."I know you will leave me some day, so I will just do it for you"...or another way to look at it is, "I will find someone I can feel superior to be with so I don't feel so 'less than' around them."

If that is the case...time to pull yourself up to become equal with your WW. A good M is founded on an equal footing, where one doesn't have more power than the other...

After many months of counseling I've come to the conclusion that I was, and I'm not trying to be glib about it, an oversexed selfish a-hole with an addictive personality. I cant say my SA's had anything to do with her one way or the other. I know that I've learned alot about myself and have made substantial improvements in myself.

Now with that being said.During the course of the separation I have felt like I wasnt equal to her and I think there is where the problem is now.

(Hey, we got edited by Justuss...thanks Justuss)

It sounds like you've done quite a bit of work on yourself, and being honest is a BIG step. You have admitted to the A and your SA...you have admitted the guilt and not afraid to feel it.

So, what next?

Here are some things you can try...

Realize that you had a part to play in where the M is right now...not the A, but the way the M got there. Sounds like you've done this.

Become the best H you can be by learning her 3 top EN's, learning the curb the LB, and spend as much time together as you can. The timing for this may have changed. Are you confident you have shown her the best YOU over this past year? Have you fulfilled her requirements for NC with OW?

Expose the A to family, friends, and OM's wife or family. Yeah, I know, a moot point, her family and friends may be encouraging her to get out...but it may be important to let family and friends know you still want the M to work and you are STILL M.

Let her know it is NOT OK for her to date while she is still M.

Realize that you are WORTHY of a good woman and a good M. She picked you as a partner for a REASON!!

This is Plan A. It is about negotiating the end of an A and showing her the best of YOU.

You can only meet her halfway. She has to meet you the rest of the way. When you begin to feel your love for her slipping away it is time to move to Plan B. Plan B is for you to preserve what love you have and for the A to die a natural death. It is so she can get a taste of what a D will feel like before it actually happens.

Plan B begins with a love letter and NC with your WW.

But you shouldn't do both at the same time. Plan B should come as a shock.

It sounds like you have more in you to Plan A. But how long can you do this for?

Have you read Surviving an Affair. It is good for the WS as well as the BS.

You know Still you make a lot of sense. Problem is I think my lack of consistency has lead to a complete lack of credibility.

This has been going on for almost 2 years. At NO TIME has she offered to meet me anywhere let alone half way. I would however say that over the last 2 years I have meet whatever EM she has let me meet. But even then I really don't know.

She has at no time indicated that if I do X and Y and Z then she will commit to reconciliation. Or even an attempt at reconciliation.

I'm starting to feel that I've been in and out of plan a and b over the last 2 years that nothing I do now will change anything.

The best I can do now is to continue to enjoy as much time as I can with our DD

Thanks Still and Whisper you 2 really are good people.

Have you read Surviving an Affair? Very useful thoughts for both the WS and the BS.

Todays Horoscope. This made me laugh.

"You've been polite, considerate and attentive to everyone, just as usual. You've even gone out of your way to be nice to at least one someone who might not deserve it. Enough. Just walk away. It's time."

OH and Still I will get that and read it. Thanks

Is it time for Plan B?

You're getting great advice from SHMI. Please take heed. Detach yourself from your guilt - for the sake of your M.

"What needs to happen is for you to be VERY firm with her about what she is doing is wrong...she is NOT allowed to date without the M being over. She is having an A ...
Until she stops dating, there will be no reconciliation. Write her a letter telling her there will be no reconciliation until she stops dating and ends all contact with her BFs."

I couldn't agree more with SHMI's above recommendation.

Hang in there, DGB!

You know something. I've got good supportive friends and a wonderful family but there is something special about this place. You all really help me. Im a little slow to head the great advice you all give but believe me I am Listening.

Its 2:30 in the morning Ive got an old Fleetwood Mac CD on and Song Bird is playing. The song pretty much sums up all my feelings I have for my W. If you know the song you'd understand, I just dont think Im ready to commit to Plan B. Im just the biggest sap in the world.

God bless you all

Im out
(I think I need to change my music choices like start listenting to songs like "Cold Hearted B*****" by JET. LOL)

That is wonderful that you have so much love for her. Plan A?

And if you commit to Plan A there are some things to follow...

You had mentioned you were not consistent about your behavior. Time to get there...

Read about EN's and LB's. Time to try to fulfill her top 3 EN's and cut out ALL LB's, if not for her, then for you to learn to be a better person.

Expose...this means tell everyone you are close to you still want to be M and are working on the M (including OM?)

Tell her very plainly that you want to work on the M but know you can't with OM in the picture. Want her to give the M a try and ask her to stop dating and look into MC.


Then, while you're following this, keep an eye on your hearrt and hte love you have left for her. You will feel your love drain for her when she is hurting you. While you still have love left there will be a time to move to Plan B, to protect what love you have for her.

Read Surviving an Affair. Did you see Moving4ward's post, she is getting rid of some of her books. She's done the reading, but her WH is gone.

Thank you Still you always make a lot of sense.

After we first separated I started going to counseling I continued with this particular counselor for almost a year. We didn’t deal so much in my past actions but in what was going on at that time. It was basically a release session for me, This was the first time I had ever been to counseling so I didn’t know what I should get out of it. Turns out in looking back I got nothing from this.

1 month ago I began counseling again with a new counselor. This one in particular deals with addictions including sexual addictions. I spent most of the last 2 years focused on trying to save our marriage and all the other things (not that there were a lot) I was lacking in myself. I’ve learned quite a bit about myself but I have never dealt with what I did and why I did it.

These sessions have been very intense and I really get a lot out of them. We do though talk about the current situation only in the Idea of developing what makes me tick. The biggest thing that came out of last night’s session was the counselor’s question of whether or not my W ever really loved me. Her point was to point out even now that my desire to work out our marriage with someone who has shown no signs of wanting the same only supports the notion that I have an addictive personality. I started to make a reality list.

1. Not once has W agreed to any type of counseling either IC or MC.

2. Not once has she ever said she would like to work out our marriage

3. Not once in the last 2 years has she done anything nice for me

4. Not once in the last 2 years has she ever said anything complimentary toward me
5. In the last 2 years she has shown interest in at least 5 different men. Currently dating one

6. Not once have we been able to discuss what is on her mind, how she feels, what she wants to do. It always gets meet with complete aggravation on her part. I try to talk about it she says that’s all we ever do and I say no I try to talk and you always tell me that’s all we ever do.

7. She has continued to rub my nose in what I did. Most of the time being very crud and hurtful.

8. She told everybody we know what I did, immediately. I understand exposure is necessary. I was never given an opportunity to stop what I was doing before exposure happened.

9. Her contention has been that it is my problem and that its not her responsibility to deal with it.

So is there really any love for me? I don’t think so.

I’m going to plan b now, not to save the marriage, but to save my soul

Good idea.

Plan B is like setting up a fence with a gate. You give her the key to the gate if she is willing to work on the M. If she is not...then you have built a nice fence with a gate for someone else after the D.

Plan B starts with a love letter...where you tell her you love her, want your M to work, and admit to the part you played in the destruction of the M.

You explain your love for her will no last forever and you are going to limit if not cut out completely any contact with her to preserve what love you have left until she is willing to commit to the M or there is D.

You lay out a bit of how you will work visiting the munchkin.

And then you let her know what needs to happen if she wants to work on the M (no more contact with OM or dates, MC, real talks) Only if these things happen will you entertain the notion of reconciliation.

And then the hard part happens...NC with her. Set up an intermediary for the kid emergencies or pick up, drop offs...

To heck with the love letter, Ive shown it and said it a million times. I cant stomach it any more.

Do you think I should push forward with a legal seperation or leave it up to her?

I know, I know, you are full of anger and hurt, betrayal and rejection. This M may end, or may recover, either way, do you want to do it in anger and fear, or love and compassion... What kind of a person do you want to be...

Still your really starting to piss me off. Your like the little Angel on my shoulder. I cant seem to knock you off. LOL Im just kidding.

Truth is I'm not sure right this second I'll wait a few days see how I feel.

Thanks again

PS what do you think about the legal seperation stuff.

The legal separation stuff is generally a good idea, but make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. Are you doing it to protect yourself and your rights and assets or are you doing it to hurt her back...maybe a little of both. OK, when you get to the point when you need it more to protect yourself, then go for it.

It is important to let the WW know you are still willing to work on the M should that time come, but there will be a time when you won't want to...

OK, she's thrown you NO bones for the past year(s)? But I'm leary of the absolutes you speak of when you say 'never' and 'always'. You ARE getting some EN's met or else you wouldn't be hanging around still and loving her too.

Yes, move to Plan B in your own time, no pressure. And don't do it out of spite, hate, anger, or retaliation, but do it out of protection for yourself and the love you still have (?)

It was an interesting weekend. It was however just what I needed to make my decision to move into plan b

Friday evening after taking our DD to the park and dinner I dropped her off. My W was having her sister over who was bringing a friend with her that she wanted my W to meet. Friend as in my SIL’s “love” interest. My SIL and I are still good friends. I had not intended to stay but my W asked me to hang out with them. So I did.

The wine was flowing freely and I did get a good opportunity to tell my SIL how much I love my W and that I was willing to do anything to work on our M and that I would never do anything again to hurt her. She really didn’t have any answers as to what was in my W’s heart as to reconciling our M. She did say though that my W still goes back and forth with what to do. Her only advice was to keep doing what you doing.

They went upstairs and my W and I were alone outside by the pool. She was VERY drunk. At this point she took off her bathing suit and got completely naked in front of me and started swimming in the pool. She was dancing around in the pool very seductively. I of course made some cautious moves toward her but she really didn’t want me touching her. She only made some derogatory remarks at me about my past indiscretions.

She was too drunk to walk up the stairs. I carried her up to her room took her in to the bathroom where she proceeded to vomit just short of the toilet. I then held her hair as she continued to vomit in the toilet. I cleaned up the mess cleaned her up put some clothes on her and put her into bed. I stayed for about an hour just making sure she was ok then I went home.

Saturday was interesting but for the sake of space It was typical of most days.

We have as friends an older couple whom my W almost considers as a surrogate Mother and Father. She is very close with them. They have been remodeling there home and I have been helping them to do some work. Sunday I spent the day at their house putting in a ceiling. I spoke with them about the situation. Told them the same things I told my SIL. The too had no idea what my W’s intentions were. They were quite surprised to hear about the events of Friday night. They do however know about the BF. They went with my W to a party Saturday that the BF came to also. They didn’t tell me this I just know. Their advice was the same as my SIL, keep doing what you doing.

Well frankly I cant “Keep doing what I’m doing”. Its tearing me apart inside. I can’t spend another weekend like that again. I’m not angry, there is no pressure, and I’m not doing this out of spite. My love for here is fading and I need to protect myself.And try and preserve the love I have for her.

Its time for a solid Plan B

You know its funny. I think that plan a and plan b are all great. My W my be dating but when It comes to us reconciling I think it's no so much that she wants to be with someone else it's that she doesnt want to be with me. She doesnt want to take the risk of me hurting her again.

Oh well I'll just keep on keepin on.

OK, so what's it going to be, Plan A, Plan B or just floating along. It takes more than just the determination to be in a plan for it to work, it takes action.

What is your plan?

StillHereMakingit

I've thought long and hard over this one. Since I was originally the WS, as I said in my earlier post, I dont think its as much about OM than it is about wanting me back.I really cant see any benefit to plan b. It sounds good when I'm angry. But I need her to see the best of me as much as possible.

So I am back to plan A.