- I have lost my honor

- I may lose my best friend (my H)

- I let myself down

- I have caused horrible pain for my own selfishness

- It can never be undone

- I did not know what I needed (could not put it into
words, but tried) until after the A

- I did things I believed I could never do

- I knew how horrible the pain was (my dad had an A), but
was not thinking about any of that when I did it

- I am now part of a group I never wanted to be part of

- I may lose the man I love

- I put my children's future at risk

- I can never say again I kept my wedding vows

- Seeing things daily that remind me of what I did

- I have no one to blame but myself

- For a few months of getting some needs met, I have
caused years of damage to my M

- It's very hard to be the WS and the BS--- R is so hard

- H had an A partly because of what I did

- I found MB too late to help myself avoid this

- I hurt my OM's wife and children

- My relationship with my mom may never be the same

- I took away my H's innocence

- I have disrupted my H and children's sense of home

- I think about this every day

- Knowing the mere sight of me causes my H pain

- Home does not feel that way anymore

- My H treats me in ways he never would have before

- H's wedding ring is a source of pain

- Feels like my H does not respect me

- Uncertainty

- I have not heard "I love you" in 5 months


The list is literally endless. But, the most important thing is that, worst of all, I hurt the one person who means the most to me. Because of my own personal weakness, I have caused severe damage and pain to the man I love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Coming to this website and reading people's stories and getting feedback has been such a blessing. If I can ever help any of you, please just ask.

Very touching. I pray you peace.

(((HUGS))) improving

You are NOT defined by your past - live for today and tomorrow - you are not who you were then - you are who you are now - keep up the journey and the changes and be the best woman you can be. Make amends for your mistakes, and learn to fogive yourself.

Blessings on your marriage and your recovery.

I would have to agree that being a FWS totally sucks.

I have been on both the receiving and the giving end of infidelity, and I can assure you, they both suck!

Which is worse I certainly couldn't say, but being the one who strayed in the relationship, I have caused more pain and suffering both to my wife, but to myself as well, than I would have ever beleived.

My story is the result of a 6-week EA on the internet 4 years ago. BY FAR one of the stupidest things I have ever done.

On a positive note though, I think this is an amazing site with help and answers for lots of folks in different predicaments.

My hat is off to all of the "veterans" here who are continuously helping others. You people are amazing!

Of key interest is the point where you state the sight of you causes your husband pain... how did you come to this understanding/knowledge?

That one specifically intersts me, being a BS(h), I also suffer the same thing. When I look on my wife, it grieves me deeply still... and I don't think she knows this. That when I look at her, all I see still is the affair. BTW, 1.5yrs later.

I applaud your efforts here though, what a post. Has your husband seen this? It might help him tons to know, you are trying really hard to relate to what emotions he is suffering from.

Gonna butt in here. In my case, my husband would look at me and I could see the pain in his eyes. He would also tell me not so nice that being around me was too painful - like Improving, the pain my husband was feeling, ended up driving him out and he had an affair as well.

I don't know what my H's realization was, after his A - but he now looks at me for the first time in 8 months with love, and care. I don't know if it's because he understands how an A works, or if he really realized it's because it's me he wants no matter what happened.

Have you told your wife that i grieves you deeply still? Have you told her what she can do to help you with your pain?

I would look at it this way, as a BS, it is not my wife as a person who causes me pain but that looking at her reminds me of the world I live in. That constant reminder of the hell I have been living in for the past year. Does that make sense? Mrs. Wonk is not a terrible person but has done terrible things. As a WS, too, I have done horrible things as well and I am sure that the sight of me at times causes a lot of hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I just know that I look at my spouse and just feel so much pain because I always used to look into the eyes of my best friend and now I know my best friend in the whole world hurt me in one of the most significant ways.

Mrs. Wonk has said many of the same things on the list. It does help to see the remorse. But, there are days when it just doesn't help - the pain runs way to deep. It's at those moments that I just need to pick myself up by the bootstraps and say "ok - what am I going to do about it?" Makes it hard when I don't own boots, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Improving,
I feel the same as you. Almost everthing you said hit home. I see the hurt and pain that I have caused everyday. There is nothing I wouldnt do to change what happened and make all this pain go away. Wish you the best. Believe me I know the way you are feeling. I just try to look to God to help me through all this and I keep trying to improve myself and work on me. Thats all I can do now. Thats all any of us can do.

very touching...

BP- You are such a kind soul. I wish you peace as well. When I read your posts, it rips my heart out because I know that is probably what my H is feeling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dorry-

My soul sister. If I have not said it enough, I do really appreciate you and all your help. Your posts really get me thinking and you have such a healthy attitude. We could all learn a thing or two from you!



Thank you. I do know this, but it all can be so overwhelming sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I am changing for me because I need to, but it will take time and patience. Your suggestions have been a part of my R and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Just knowing I am not alone is so important because my H is not really here for me right now. Hopefully, someday, but not now. Knowing I am not alone is so precious to me.

Killer Joe-

How has your R looked? It helps me to know there are others in my shoes with the double As. I almost feel like I do not have the right to the BS label as I have been the WS. (Not that anyone here has made me feel that way.)

Wish you all the best in R -I know it is not easy. We are both so spent, we do not have a lot left to give each other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As one whose wife betrayed him all I can tell you is how much I want to forgive her and trust her again. The pain everyone speaks about is there but I'd give anything if she would help me deal with it. I think that's the best gift you could give your spouse. That, and no reason ever again to doubt your love. With God's help and Time I pray you will both heal and become better.

RookKev-

He has said it to me a few times. I do not know if my H has seen this. He lurks sometimes. I have shown him my remorse. I try very hard not to suppress this. I want him to know how sorry I am.

But, remorse has been a sore subject with us as I really need to see his too and the most sincere I have seen was on his D-days. I think that right now he is suffering so much from what I did that he has a hard time showing it, but as a BS, there is always the lingering fear that he is not really sorry. And, then I get scared because if he is not really sorry, what is to prevent him from doing it again?

I think BobPure has a very healthy attitude. There is nothing Squid can do that will ever make up for what she did, so he chooses to forgive and focus on what they have. He still hurts, but he seems to be so positive. I try to look to him for inspiration.

WonkBoy-



I feel like I do this a lot. I can certainly relate.



In my sitch, this is crucial to me. I think back on our D-days a lot because those are the times Mr I really showed me sincere, heart-felt remorse. I keep wondering if the consequence of me having the A first is that he will never be able to care for me as his BS, only treat me as his WS.




Yes, this is one of the hardest things for me too. Mr I knew how much an A hurt, yet he did the same to me. Sometimes the pain is more than I can bear. I try to put on a brave face, but I am dying inside from what he did to us. Neither of us is worse or better, but sometimes I think he thinks he is. I don't know, WB. I don't envy your sitch as I am in the same shoes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So Sorry Green-

I have not read your story, but thank you for replying. It means so much to know I am not alone. I feel very alone at times. I wish my H would just reach out to me, but he just does not seem to be able to. There are times when everything seems "normal", but then the pain of what he or I did will come washing over me and I want to scream with the pain of it all. I am constantly pushing out of my mind what he did. It is just too much to bear. And, then I get hit square between the eyes with what I did. Not a fun place to be. And, I try to be strong for both of us, but sometimes, I just want to curl into a ball and take care of me (the BS part of me).

Anytime you need a shoulder, just let me know. We are not bad people, we just made really bad choices. But, as my counselor said, you did the best you could with the coping mechanisms you had at the time---Do not define yourself by this one thing. Learn from it.

This is tough. I know that in my situation, I am having a real hard time letting Mrs. Wonk back into my heart. I don't know why. Maybe everything has changed too much - I know that someone on here said that he needed to love his spouse all over again because they were different people because of her A. Maybe that is what Mr Improving is going through. Maybe he allowed himself to become so detached, so protective of himself (subconsciously) that even allowing his heart to open enough to show true empathy and remorse may be something that is just not there for him at the moment. Maybe he just can't but wants to. I feel like that sometimes. Mrs. Wonk wants remorse - well sometimes I just feel numb.

Maybe when you get closer again, he will be able to let that part of himself out. He may also only be able to show it in his own way. Maybe it's just subtle?



Sure it hurts, but remember, we who have affairs are often blinded by what is going on. That's not an excuse, of course. Look - your dad had an affair, right? I am sure it affected your family life - well, you still did it despite seeing its affects.

I know Mrs. Wonk did not want to hurt me. Mrs. Wonk did not want to hurt our marriage. I know that. I don't have any doubt. Yet, it still hurts no matter what she says or what remorse comes from her. Everybody heals in their own way and at their own pace. You will heal differently than Mr. Improving as I will heal differently than Mrs. Wonk. The one thing about MB is that it is a strict formula for repairing and improving marriages. Well, that helps to a point but the healing will always come from within and within each person, that healing will be different.

I would be careful about suggesting, even subtely, that he may think you are worse than he is. That's a judgement - my first thought was that you did not feel that his pain and his way of expressing it was proper. Remember his pain is his pain. I am sure that if you asked him point blank he would not say that you were worse. Things that you did might hurt him worse than it would you but he's not saying that he's any better. Just different. Make sense or did I just talk myself into a circle??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know this sounds weird, but I feel like I want to apologize to all BS and take away their pain. I feel that a lot when I read people's posts. I think because the pain is so real and it hits me very hard to think-- that is me, I did those things too. I almost forget that I am the BS too.

Campdog-



Thank you for letting me have that insight into the male BS mind. I also would love it if Mr I would help me heal from his A in this way. I try all the time to be there for him. I have offered to let him share with me and lean on me, yet he says,"But, you are the one who hurt me." This is part of the reason he turned to OW because I was not there to let him talk about it (when I was in the A). Now I am, and he does not want to talk to me. I imagine it will just take some time.

Have you ever told your W how you feel?




I pray for this too. I wish you the same. If you ever have questions for me as the WS, I am open to answering them.

Improving-

Reading your words really helps me see what my H may be feeling AND I sit here sort of wishing that you were the OW in our life. That may sound weird but I know she was a BS before the A with my H. I find myself wondering if she has any remorse for her part in the hurt that was caused by the A, I find myself wondering if the words "I am in love with you" she wrote to my husband were sincere words and does she still love him, does he still love her or were those words just words in the heat of the affair?

It seems like a never ending chain. Her H cheated on her with a woman whose H cheated. Where does it stop? Way too much hurt in so many marriages. Meanwhile we sit here and wonder what our S is thinking and feeling and wonder about our futures.

We have been back together for 5 weeks now. Lately I feel more confused than ever. I wish I could dig in his brain and know for sure.

Improving, thank you so much for your kind offer. I want to extend the same offer to you in return. I'll answer any questions you might have as clearly and honestly as I can. Maybe we can help each other and even perhaps others in the process. I have so MANY questions I'd like answered.

My wife so far keeps the subject of her affair and her relationship with her partner in adultery as a closed book. Her attitude is that it's over so let's move on. Our personal situation is complicated by the fact that my wife has spent a lifetime distancing herself from her feelings and was raised in a culture where children are taught to keep their mouths shut. She comes from Africa and was a victim of multiple child rape. I don't think that I'll be getting any insights from her any time soon but one thing that has struck me is the similarities that all of our stories share. Maybe you can lend me a flashlight to help me find my own path.

My number one question is How Could You? Did you love me at all? How could you live with me and do what you did and lie about it for so long? How could you look me in the eye? How did you manage to live with me and sleep with him at the same time? I couldn't do that and I so want to understand how you could. Why didn't you just leave and go with him? Why stay involved in TWO inappropriate relationships? What was going through your mind?

Not really a lot of questions but I realize that the answers will be complicated. I have more questions but that one is the biggie. Who knows but that someone will say something that I can apply to my own situation. If anyone has a question for me from my own perspective I'll do my best to stay away from any hand wringing or attempts to describe how absolutely terrible the experience has been for me. There's plenty enough of that here for those who seek such accounts. This thread looks like a good place to learn a thing or two. I'll do my part.

improving, yes i can relate to the majority of what you have written. and when i focus on it all, i can bearly breath, it hurts so much.

i don't know what other advice to give you other than live in today, not yesterday, it is the only way i am surviving.

Something encouraging for all the people on this thread.

Camp, those are very difficult questions to answer that you may NEVER get a satisfying answer to. I know why I ended up having one, I understand what went wrong in me...but to this day I STILL can't believe I did it to my H, I still say - hOW could I...I understand how I got into a self destructive behavior, I understand the contributing factors...but I still sometimes get so disappointed in myself. And I DID love my H, but my actions sure showed i didn't...so trying to tell my H i still loved him during that time was useless, as to be honest - as much as I say I loved him, and I feel I loved him...you wouldn't do things like this to someone you loved.

And being on the BS side of things, I want to ask my H the same questions ESP cause he KNEW what the pain of an affair caused us...but I know those aren't the questions that have answers. I learned that it doesn't matter to me if he loved me or didn't love me then, or how could he do it...what matters to me is what he is doing TODAY and does he love me TODAY. I watch his actions, as I am sure he does mine, everyday...and so far we are flying high....never forget to remind eachother of our love...and are both making changes bit by bit.

I'm noticing a bit of a difference in the way some BS need to recover. Mrs. Wonk isn't as interested in the "why". Rather, she just wants to know that I have remorse for the pain I have caused her - that I have empathy for the pain I have caused her.

However, I have noticed that some of the posters here still need to know "why". Despite understanding how affairs work, unmet emotional needs, etc., they still need to know how we all got here. It's not an insignificant difference. Mrs. Wonk could show me empathy until the day I die but at this moment, it is not what I need. I want to know what inside of my Mrs. Wonk made her take the plunge. What truly allowed her not to stop herself when she had the chance. Yeah, the emotional high feels good, but how could you not stop when you saw me every night? How could you allow yourself to go further when you already come from a family torn apart by an affair?

Now, don't get me wrong. Knowing that Mrs. Wonk feels terrible about the pain she has caused me is important. But as Dr. Harley would say, it is not hitting the mark right now.

For instance, Improving (and I don't mean to pick on you at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) you said that you couldn't identify what needs you were missing until you had your affair. My wife has said something similar and damn, how insulting. I never even had the chance. My best friend didn't even give me a chance.

And Dorry:



And I guess this is why it is so frustrating to me and one reason that recovery for me is so difficult. I had my affair because my best friend left me. I am not trying to blame Mrs. Wonk at all. My actions are my own, but I know that I was in such a deep depression from Mrs. Wonk's affair, that I desperately needed to know that I could still be loved. Mrs. Wonk was gone - at least emotionally. Her actions didn't say that she loved me (just as Dorry said in her post). Well, my low self-esteem left me vulnerable to seeking affection elsewhere. Like a big dumb idiot, I succumbed to that pressure. I failed. My lack of self-importance, my lack of self-esteem, my inability to love myself enough to do what was right all led to my affair. It wasn't unmet needs. It was me. I failed myself. Thus, I failed Mrs. Wonk, too.

Mrs. Wonk says it was about unmet needs. Uhm. OK. True. I get that. But WHY did you HAVE an affair?? I hadn't had my SF needs met very much in my entire marriage but I didn't fall victim to an affair for that reason. So, what else is there in Mrs. Wonk that allowed her to do what she did. I need to understand that if I am ever to trust her again. I need that if I am to recover.

Thanks, Suzet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dorry, I didn't expect the answers to be simple or definitive. I am simply asking for insights into a mindset that I don't understand. I can only see into my own heart, for anyone else's I have to ask questions. If I get too personal or sound judgemental please set me straight immediately. I am looking for information here and I won't get it by being offensive or prying.

If I love a woman I want to be with that person exclusively and I want her to want the same thing. How do you explain loving a person yet giving the things that the person you love has a right to expect to another person? Speaking personally such behaviour would set up an unbearable conflict in me. It would be written all over my face and I'm sure someone as close to me as my spouse would pick up on it in a heartbeat. In my own case I didn't have a clue as to what my wife was doing. I am not an unobservant man and nothing in her behavior gave her away. How is such a thing possible? I'm not passing judgement, I really want to understand.

Improving, I know that in my situation, Mrs. Wonk was my world. I had a very unhealth perspective on myself and my marriage. I wasn't an individual married to another individual who came together to enjoy a life together. I became part of her. I lived for her. I couldn't even tell you who I am at the moment. So, when she betrayed me - it hurt me to the very core. Not only am I left with the rubble of a marriage, I am left with a rubble of my own self. Because of that, I don't even know how to love Mrs. Wonk again.

Improving, I just take it one day at a time. I have moved past the anger - the pain will always, always be there but the anger must be squashed. I have worked real hard on forgiveness, and have forgiven the lies, etc. that came from the affair. I have even foregiven that she has had SF with OM.

Now, I have to see what is left. I will either love Mrs. Wonk again, and she will love me, or not. If that is the case, at least I know that I looked at everything with open eyes and not behind a wall of anger. Hopefully, if Mrs. Wonk and I can't reclaim our marriage, we will at least be able to parent our children in a spirit of friendship. Time does heal all wounds - what grows in its place is the unknown.

As one who is on both sides of the situation...

Mrs. Wonk had her A and then, not to long thereafter, I began mine. I can assure you that the chemical changes in the brain are so significant, that it is actually quite easy to compartmentalize what is going on. It's not right. It's not right at all. Both Mrs. Wonk and I couldn't compartmentalize completly as it was clear to both of us that something was going on with the other. Yet, there were many months that we each could be at two places at one time, so to speak.

I agree with your needing to understand what makes your wife tick so that she could actually go throug with it. My desire to feel love and affection was so strong at the moment (probably because of the depression that I was experiencing due to Mrs. Wonk's affair) that I did not want to stop my affair. I needed that love. I needed to know that I was still special. I just went about it all the wrong ways and now hurt Mrs. Wonk incredibly. I know how I got there. However, Mrs. Wonk can't quite tell me how she got there. Needs here, needs there, but what inside you made it possible? I wish she would tell me - I do need to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Does this make sense to you?

Wonk...as much as i personally know about my A, and how I got there, how I became addicted - those questions I can't even answer. I still get so disappointed in myself.

My bio dad left my mom for the OW and that didn't work out - he is on his 3rd wife. My stepdad (who raised me) and my mom - he had an a 8 years ago- they have recovered and are stronger than ever. My grandparents divorced and remarried - my grandma married her OM who has been my grandpa for 29 years now.

I SWORE I would break my families curse - that I would never do something like this...but here I am. The emotional highs were SO high for me that I couldn't let go...it's like an alcoholic who knows it's hurting his family but cares more about his own selfish need....I put myself above everyone and everything else. That's all there is to it. I saw my H everynight - I even INVITED OM and his wife up to our house for a WEEKEND to visit H and I - I did some VERY cruel things..WHY? Because I put ME and only ME first. That was never a good enough answer for Sprint - but it was the ONLY answer I could come up with.

You may not GET answers to those questions...and Wonk - you had an affair too - can you YOURSELF answer those questions without blaming Mrs. Wonk??

Her unmet needs are a definate part of the reason, but what in her made those needs SOOO strong to be met that she would rather them be met by someone else then protect her family - I know in my case it was a depression from a surgery that cause me to go into a self destructive coping mode - where those needs became SO overwhelming...Mrs. Wonk may know too - but ultimately you may never get a satisfying answer.

f you goal is the marriage - then work on eachother's needs while working on your own changes. Like the wise PEPPER said - you can't focus on what your spouse needs to change, only yourself. You may feel she should look into herself and figure thigs out - but you can't control that - work on what you know YOU did wrong, and have faith that the rest will follow.

Improving, it may help you to know that Steve Harley told me that 80% of all marriages some form of adultry. God bless you. It isn't what you've done but what you do that counts.

camp,

My H sprint had the SAME questions and heartache...wanting so hard to understand how I could have done what I did. His only dream was to have someone commit to him and only him...and to be faithful and I shattered that dream...and he couldn't even dream another dream. He spent SO long trying to figure it out - it eventaully was ALL he looked at. he couldn't see the commitment I was making NOW to making the marriage work, he couldn't see the changes I was making - he looked at me and all he could see was A and his definition of commitment.

It got SO bad from his focusing on it - that he started to just want to be able to block ME out. So he avoided me, started working late, started dabbing in singles forums so other people could relate to him.

He met a girl...and within weeks asked me for a seperation - an EA had started. He was UTTERLY convinced that everything was my fault and this girl would NEVER hurt him. After 4 weeks of seperation he realized he was looking at everything the wrong way. That he didn't want to replace me, he loved me...he loved who he was when he was with me - but that because his one dream and his definition of commitment had been broken - he couldn't see what we COULD have - what we DID have.

He realized this and called and confessed...that he had an A. He told me he knew I wouldn't forgive him and he understood if I didn't want to come home and needed time to process things. As painful as it was, as disappointed as I was - I knew that my GOAL had not changed - a HEALTHY marriage long term and I said to him, I do not need to think - if you are GENUINE about wanting to make this work, then I will come home. He was shocked. And he tells me at that minute her realized what commitment meant. It didn't just mean staying faithful, but it meant WORKING through the bad times no matter what was thrown at you - he had said cruel things over 7 months, hurt me deeply, punished me in ways that twisted my heart for my A..but I stayed...even when I wanted to give up - I stayed...because I was re-commited to making this marriage work, I had learned from my mistakes - gotten help - I am still a work in progress. He realized despite what he had done, and the mess we both had made - I was COMMITED. Within days after that he started to not be blinded by my A, anymore and had a new dream - to build a foundation on which we can grow old together...he no longer wants to know HOW i did it, how could I do it...etc - he now just wants to see what we are doing to change it from ever happening again.

We both have bad days, we both have triggers...but we focus on what we are doing today to lay a STRONGER foundation where this can never happen again.

I have the same questions - HOW could he leave me and the kids like he did - HOW could he be willing to abandon the kids for HER? But the truth is - he was...BUT he isn't NOW, and I don't focus on the WHY's of then, I focus on the WHAT ARE WE DONG ABOUT IT now - I won't repeat the same mistakes in my marriage I have made over the past 6 years, and neither will he.

We have been given a second chance at this and we won't blow it!

Wonk,

Once again...even though I have figured out over 8 months that I have a self destructive coping problem...I still cannot answer that question - WHY? Because I was weak? Because all I cared about was me? Because I DESPERATLY needed conversation and support - my biggest ENs? All of the above? There is no easy and clear answer. There is a million answers. I know what got me there...but i still cannot believe I fell...but I did. And all I can do is protect my weakness, change myself, learn NEW coping skills to NEVER put myself in the position to fall again...but what in the end made me cross that line? The only answer I can say is selfishness and that barely covers it...

Yep. I was depressed. My self-esteem, which was low to begin with, was at its lowest point and I wanted so much to feel love from someone. I needed to feel love because it created self-worth. I now realize that self-worth comes from within. I couldn't see that at the time. That's not the fault of Mrs. Wonk. That's my own failing.

Those are reasons Wonk - all things to work on - but WHAT what is that truly made you CROSS the line - that made you say - Okay - this is worth it - I am gonna do it.

Mrs. Wonk is telling you her reasons - her needs desperately needed to be met...but it sounds like you are looking for that PUSH, not for the reasons - the PUSH like what I asked you.

If there are more reasons, then you can't force her to look at them, that will come...all you can do is focus on what you know and make the changes that you need to make...like your Co-dependency, and working on meeting her needs...

HAVE you done the EN list like I suggested???

Wonk - we are TJing...lol if we want to discuss it further lol - lets start our own thread!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Improving, sounds like you touched a lot of people with your thread. Dorry and I will return it to you for your comments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

If this subject is getting old, I apologize.

I just had to get something off my chest, though.

When I look back to an ex-girlfriend that cheated numerous times (with some very strong consequences), I tried so hard to understand why she would continually do this to me over and over again. It finally occured to me, after many long months, that it was because I was letting her. I was enabling her to cheat because I kept taking her back.

I think there are two kinds of cheaters:

Serial cheaters and those of us who have made a serious mistake, but probably won't do it again.........ever, no matter what the circumstances.

The serial cheaters don't wan't to understand and probably don't care. They will cheat no matter how good or bad they have got it in their primary relationship. If they cheat on you more than once, there is no hope, IMHO.

But for those who make the mistake and then have remorse about it, I think there is lots of hope. As to why someone cheats, there must be a thousand excuses, but no real reasons. I think the common theme is that we think that someone else has the answer to our pain, whatever that pain may be. Sadly though, no one else has that answer. You are the only one who can cure your own pain. You and possibly your wonderful spouse who can help you, but ultimately, the answer to "Why am I so damn miserable?" can only be found within yourself, not the attractive other person who "seems" so perfect.

I hope someone can get something from these ramblings.
Thanks for listening. I admire all of the folks on this site so much!

Have a happy Friday.

The "Why?" still haunts me even though I am not in recovery nor do I intend to enter into recovery. It haunts me because I think of all the good that we shared and good things we had and the promises we had made, and I wonder why would you ever give up so easily? And if you did want out, why do it this way?

I don't think I'll ever get the answer to "Why?" from my WW either. I don't think she knows.

But I have my own theory...

When I first met WW she was a very selfless person. She always thought about other first and quite often put them in front of her own needs. In fact this is one of the things that attracted me to her, was her utter selflessness. Unfortunately she also allowed some people to walk over her and take advantage of her.

She eventually reached a point where she got fed up and decided to live for herself and only for herself. And she became extremely selfish. I of course resisted as I saw our family always taking a backseat to her selfish activities. This put a large strain on our marriage.

I think the selfishness coupled with her depression, and her "decision by what feels good" type of attitude led her to the A. A year later I honestly now believe it had very little to do with me and our marriage.

When the A occured, however, I thought it was ALL about me. Now I think my contribution to the devestation was underestimating the internal struggle she was going through and not seeking outside help earlier. Granted she wasn't very good at sharing her internal struggles but I thought she was stronger than she was.

Unfortunately the A destroyed everything we had. I can barely talk to her, and cannot look at her without disgust. I do not know how I could have any relationship with her.

I applaud those who can look past the A and work on their marriage as I know I will never be able to do that. The gash left by the A was much too deep wound. Without the A we would have had a large struggle to recover, but with it I saw it as impossibility.

Miker

"As to why someone cheats, there must be a thousand excuses, but no real reasons. I think the common theme is that we think that someone else has the answer to our pain, whatever that pain may be."

THAT answer has the ring of truth and gives me something to ponder. Thank you Killer. Please ramble on.

Miker,

Sorry - I don't know much about your history. Can you explain this more for me? Mrs. Wonk and I are trying to recover from affairs on both sides. What made you reach the point you did - was it because of her or was it something in you that decided that recovery would not work?

Both.

At the start I thought there might be a faint chance but in retrospect I think I was just having a hard time letting go.

Don't get me wrong, I think couples can recover from A's. I just don't think we could of (and we didn't). I think I even could if my own situation was different. That is something that surprised me about myself as I always thought I never could...

Miker

Maggie G-

Thank you for such kind words. I find myself wondering where we would be if my H had found MB instead of starting his own A. Stupid, I know, but 2 affairs makes things so much more difficult. We are at cross-purposes in a lot of ways because we each are in different places in terms of our pain and personal R.



This is very true. I have asked H to talk to me and be my friend again. I know I lost that right, but I would love it if he would let me in.


My H also believed he loved her and he told me he was not sure he loved me anymore (after she was in the picture).

This is all so painful. All the way around. I can tell you this, my emotional neediness after the multiple D-days with his A, did not help us. He could not meet many of my needs and I was desparate to know this was not another false R. So, round and round we went. Take care of yourself during this time and Plan A. Seek support elsewhere. Journal. Work on your personal recovery and being a better, stronger person. But, right now, he will be in WD and cannot offer you a lot. Pushing for what you need will only make things worse. I speak from experience. Though my feelings and needs were all very valid, in the long run, it made things worse for us. The more I have backed off and given him space, the better we have done.

(((Maggie)))

Improving.

As a secondary BS maybe you can identify with some of THIS too, while we are expressing how we feel.

I feel for you, having both sides of pain must be terrible.

Campdog-

Thank you- I certainly may need to take you up on the offer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have to see, reading other BS' stories here has helped me to see better what my H is going through. I have a hard time because my sitch is so different than the "normal" single A. So, the way of doing things is so different too.

First of all, have you asked her any of these questions and given her a chance to answer honestly-- even if it hurts. Remember too, she may not know the answers herself and may be shaken to the core too. I have had to look more and more at myself since the A ended. Not a fun thing to do, but, necessary. Patience- this will take time.

My number one question is How Could You? [color:"blue"] I am still figuring that out myself, I cannot give you a good answer. I never thought I could do this. I never even knew very clearly what my ENs were until they were being met again. You used to do those things when we dated. Obviously, they were very important to me. I wish I knew this and understood it better. Now, I do. [/color] Did you love me at all? [color:"blue"]Yes, I never stopped. You were the one I wanted meeting those needs. [/color] How could you live with me and do what you did and lie about it for so long? [color:"blue"]Because I was terrified of losing you and was not ready to stop having my needs met. I was selfish and cake-eating.[/color] How could you look me in the eye? [color:"blue"] It was never easy to lie and do those things. [/color] How did you manage to live with me and sleep with him at the same time? I couldn't do that and I so want to understand how you could. [color:"blue"] Never say never. And, remember, most As do not start with the intent to have an A. I bet almost all WS on this board would have said they could never have done this--that is until we did. Read SAA and understand what happens. She probably did not seek it out and did not recognize herself being sucked in until it was too late. [/color] Why didn't you just leave and go with him? [color:"blue"] Because I wanted you, my H. [/color] Why stay involved in TWO inappropriate relationships? [color:"blue"]I was a cake eater. I did not want to lose either of you. [/color] What was going through your mind? [color:"blue"] Shame, fear, entitlement, and pleasure (having needs met). I had a ton of things going through my mind. I even had moments of clarity where the fog lifted. But, the one thing that really did it the most was my love for my H and that I truly wanted him and our M. I believed in us and did not want to lose that. Still don't. [/color]

Does any of this help at all?

Finally Learning-

I know. The pain of what I have done takes my breath away at times. Then, I think of my H and what I put him through. I was the BS, so I know quite well what I have done and it tears me apart.

Thank you for your advice. I think it is very wise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WB-



I think these are all very good questions. In my sitch, I am searching for those answers myself. I do not know all the reasons. It is such a mix of things over time and I am trying to figure it all out. I do know I felt abandoned by my H within the year or so of the A. When I really needed him he was not there. Then, I was in terrible pain and PPD and he did not empathize (Big, Big, LB deposits when this is met). I was at a very low point in my life and he did not have anything to give me. My self-esteem was at an all-time low and I felt like I was not really being recognized for my contributions. And, then I felt bad because I was asking too much of him. I think he had always been my support-system, yet when I really needed him, he was not there (atleast in my mind). I know now that I was detaching myself way before the A. I felt like he did not value me (this is affecting our R too as this is HUGE to me) and all he wanted me for was SF. Then we moved and I felt like I did almost everything myself. I was very resentful of this. Plus, we had hit a rough patch financially. And, we had a lot of stress with our children. And, I wanted him to love me enough to take me out on a date (this would show he wanted to be with me for something other than sex. But, we never did these things). Anyway, I think all of this mixed together with ripe circumstances and my poor coping mechanisms at the time created an environment where I was susceptible for an A. Not sure if this helps at all. But, the bottom line is that there was a lot that went into it. I am trying to figure it out myself. Give her patience. It will take time.




As I am the BS spouse too, I think the same thing. WB- have you considered things from your wife's perspective as a BS? On the one hand, you have had an A and did these exact things you are referring too, yet you then ask how she could do it. Didn't you do the same things? Didn't you come home and lie to her? Hadn't your family been torn apart by an A, yet you did it too? It's no different. You, of all people, know better than anyone because you did it to. You were experiencing the pain of the BS when you became the WS. You were in the thick of it all, yet you still did this.




Have you told her so she can hit the mark? Also, respect this as part of her R. Maybe she is doing it for herself too. Tell her what will hit the mark.




Why is it insulting for her to admit that she was not aware of her own needs until after the A? I did tell me H some of my needs and they went unmet. He had a chance to meet some of them, but he chose not to. He knew I wanted dates. He acted like all I was good for was SF. He had chances. Did I know all of my needs? No. And, I can own that.

I do understand the frustration on not being given a chance to right wrongs as my H had a bunch of resentments I found out about all at once. Yet, he had not given me the chance to work on many of them. When I said that it was not very fair that I had not been given a chance to improve on them, he said he had not known of them before. Well, that makes sense to me. How could he give me a chance to fix something he did not even know he wanted changed?




This sums up very nicely what I was feeling prior to my A. This is the main reason for my A too. But, I was not aware of a lot of these feelings on a conscious level. And, WB, your A was probably because of unmet needs on some level. You have said that your W left you emotionally. The A felt good because noone was meeting your needs at the time. It felt good to have them met. That is why it is so hard to stop.




Have you expressed it to her in this way and given her a chance to answer.

Wonkboy--You have said a lot in your posts about what you need to R, but how often do you share these things with your W? You are so very much like my H. How can she possibly meet your needs if you do not ask her or talk about this stuff? I bet she would love to know this stuff. Tell her. Let her be there for you. What is holding you back? Are you afraid of the answers? You seem irritated with her, but have you given her these answers yourself with regards to your A? And, have you ever worded things this way to her so she can meet these needs? Isn't that what you were upset with her about--not being given the chance to know what she needed and then having an opportunity to meet them? Seems to me like you are doing the same to her.
This is the chance for a new M where you do not repeat unhealthy patters. Start now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WonkBoy-





I have to say that from all the posts I have read of yours, there still sounds like there is irritation/anger at your FWW-- which is totally normal. But, you seem to want to deny it is there.

And, WB, if you do not let her in, if you do not share with her and give her a chance to meet these needs you have and answer your questions, you will lose her. Do you think you might be sabotaging your own R?

Maybe I am wrong, but your post sounds like you are giving up. Wasn't your wife's PA just revealed. It takes years for these Ms to heal, it seems a bit soon to be putting a period at the end of this sentence. Or, are you preparing yourself. Is this your fear? That she will leave you again?




All very normal feelings. So, build a healthy M with her. Try to be positive, it really does help.

(((WonkBoy)))

Agree completely.

This was true for me too.







WonkBoy- I agree. Is it possible focusing on her A helps you not to face your own? Is it more compartmentalizing? I know when I discovered my H's A, I was so hurt and devastated and kept asking how he could do this to me. How could you blindsind me with this when you knew how it felt? How could you...on and on and on. But, once getting out of the fog and further into R, I have had to ask myself those same very tough questions. I am no different.

WOE-

Wow, that is a horrible statistic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



I am working on this. I cannot change what I did. All I can do is learn from it so I never make the same mistakes again.

Thank you for your support!!

I think my H is in the same boat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



So true.




I hope my H gets to this place. We are not there yet.



I hope we won't either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I love you, Dorry. You are an inspiration to me in so many ways <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is true for most WS I imagine. There is no clear-cut answer as we do not know completely ourselves.

WonkBoy- Do you really need the answer to this or is it more about you being scared that if she cannot explain it then she cannot prevent it from happening again?

Killer Joe-

All very good points. Thank you for sharing.




I agree completely.





I think in my sitch, my H was my world. We were each other's best friends and very close. We had been very happy for a very long time. But, then we were hit with massive amounts of stress for a long period of time (years). All the things that are on the list of stressors--we had all the ones at the top of the list. I was not working, he was the sole bread-winner, we had a tough pregnancy, I was in severe pain, I was put on bedrest and could not care for my DTR, my MIL was here all the time,we were caring for twin newborns, one was very sick and was facing a life-threatening illness/death, I wanted to work but couldn't, we were sleep-deprived, money was tight, I had undiagnosed depression and then we moved into a house with triple the house-payment. This list goes on and on. I know I was at the end of my rope. I dreamed of getting away from it all (not an A). We both had not been having our needs met for quite a while. But, for me, I think the stress of that time and feeling he was not there was the catalyst. I had lost all my coping skills, was depressed, in pain, and my self-esteem was in the toilet. On top of that, my Dad and I and one of my close friends had a falling out all at the same time. All around me, the people I cared about where "abandoning" me when I needed them the most. And, then, the one person I could always count on did too. I think my coping mechanisms collapsed at that point.

Improving,

I would like to ask you a question on giving him space.

One thing that led to the problems in our marriage was we gave each other too much space, we did our own thing and ended up passing each other every day. No real conversations, no real time spent together. I was at fault to this as much as he was, maybe even more so.

What type of space do I give him? Space to think things out? I am just wondering what you mean by space.

Thank you so much for starting this post. It really does help to hear feelings from WS!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, BP <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maggie G-

I mean do not smother him too much at the beginning. Do not go on and on about what you need and seeking reassurance. Men tend to need to seek solace to work throught their feelings. However, do not give him so much space he thinks you do not care. Does this help at all?
It will take a while for him to get through WD and to be able to engage more in your M. Give him that time. Dr. Harley says do not try to meet his needs too much during this time as he most likely will not notice much. And, you will be resentful. Remember this is a marathon, not a sprint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I think I am expecting too much too soon. I need to slow down and breath! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you!

Maggie G-

Perfectly normal. I still was needing reassurance this evening (did not really get it, but I asked). It's hard because this is your H, the one you love, yet he may have a hard time meeting your needs right now. Try not to have too many expectations. Easier said than done, I know all too well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

^bump for Maggie G <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />