"As to why someone cheats, there must be a thousand excuses, but no real reasons. I think the common theme is that we think that someone else has the answer to our pain, whatever that pain may be."

THAT answer has the ring of truth and gives me something to ponder. Thank you Killer. Please ramble on.

Miker,

Sorry - I don't know much about your history. Can you explain this more for me? Mrs. Wonk and I are trying to recover from affairs on both sides. What made you reach the point you did - was it because of her or was it something in you that decided that recovery would not work?

Both.

At the start I thought there might be a faint chance but in retrospect I think I was just having a hard time letting go.

Don't get me wrong, I think couples can recover from A's. I just don't think we could of (and we didn't). I think I even could if my own situation was different. That is something that surprised me about myself as I always thought I never could...

Miker

Maggie G-

Thank you for such kind words. I find myself wondering where we would be if my H had found MB instead of starting his own A. Stupid, I know, but 2 affairs makes things so much more difficult. We are at cross-purposes in a lot of ways because we each are in different places in terms of our pain and personal R.



This is very true. I have asked H to talk to me and be my friend again. I know I lost that right, but I would love it if he would let me in.


My H also believed he loved her and he told me he was not sure he loved me anymore (after she was in the picture).

This is all so painful. All the way around. I can tell you this, my emotional neediness after the multiple D-days with his A, did not help us. He could not meet many of my needs and I was desparate to know this was not another false R. So, round and round we went. Take care of yourself during this time and Plan A. Seek support elsewhere. Journal. Work on your personal recovery and being a better, stronger person. But, right now, he will be in WD and cannot offer you a lot. Pushing for what you need will only make things worse. I speak from experience. Though my feelings and needs were all very valid, in the long run, it made things worse for us. The more I have backed off and given him space, the better we have done.

(((Maggie)))

Improving.

As a secondary BS maybe you can identify with some of THIS too, while we are expressing how we feel.

I feel for you, having both sides of pain must be terrible.

Campdog-

Thank you- I certainly may need to take you up on the offer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have to see, reading other BS' stories here has helped me to see better what my H is going through. I have a hard time because my sitch is so different than the "normal" single A. So, the way of doing things is so different too.

First of all, have you asked her any of these questions and given her a chance to answer honestly-- even if it hurts. Remember too, she may not know the answers herself and may be shaken to the core too. I have had to look more and more at myself since the A ended. Not a fun thing to do, but, necessary. Patience- this will take time.

My number one question is How Could You? [color:"blue"] I am still figuring that out myself, I cannot give you a good answer. I never thought I could do this. I never even knew very clearly what my ENs were until they were being met again. You used to do those things when we dated. Obviously, they were very important to me. I wish I knew this and understood it better. Now, I do. [/color] Did you love me at all? [color:"blue"]Yes, I never stopped. You were the one I wanted meeting those needs. [/color] How could you live with me and do what you did and lie about it for so long? [color:"blue"]Because I was terrified of losing you and was not ready to stop having my needs met. I was selfish and cake-eating.[/color] How could you look me in the eye? [color:"blue"] It was never easy to lie and do those things. [/color] How did you manage to live with me and sleep with him at the same time? I couldn't do that and I so want to understand how you could. [color:"blue"] Never say never. And, remember, most As do not start with the intent to have an A. I bet almost all WS on this board would have said they could never have done this--that is until we did. Read SAA and understand what happens. She probably did not seek it out and did not recognize herself being sucked in until it was too late. [/color] Why didn't you just leave and go with him? [color:"blue"] Because I wanted you, my H. [/color] Why stay involved in TWO inappropriate relationships? [color:"blue"]I was a cake eater. I did not want to lose either of you. [/color] What was going through your mind? [color:"blue"] Shame, fear, entitlement, and pleasure (having needs met). I had a ton of things going through my mind. I even had moments of clarity where the fog lifted. But, the one thing that really did it the most was my love for my H and that I truly wanted him and our M. I believed in us and did not want to lose that. Still don't. [/color]

Does any of this help at all?

Finally Learning-

I know. The pain of what I have done takes my breath away at times. Then, I think of my H and what I put him through. I was the BS, so I know quite well what I have done and it tears me apart.

Thank you for your advice. I think it is very wise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WB-



I think these are all very good questions. In my sitch, I am searching for those answers myself. I do not know all the reasons. It is such a mix of things over time and I am trying to figure it all out. I do know I felt abandoned by my H within the year or so of the A. When I really needed him he was not there. Then, I was in terrible pain and PPD and he did not empathize (Big, Big, LB deposits when this is met). I was at a very low point in my life and he did not have anything to give me. My self-esteem was at an all-time low and I felt like I was not really being recognized for my contributions. And, then I felt bad because I was asking too much of him. I think he had always been my support-system, yet when I really needed him, he was not there (atleast in my mind). I know now that I was detaching myself way before the A. I felt like he did not value me (this is affecting our R too as this is HUGE to me) and all he wanted me for was SF. Then we moved and I felt like I did almost everything myself. I was very resentful of this. Plus, we had hit a rough patch financially. And, we had a lot of stress with our children. And, I wanted him to love me enough to take me out on a date (this would show he wanted to be with me for something other than sex. But, we never did these things). Anyway, I think all of this mixed together with ripe circumstances and my poor coping mechanisms at the time created an environment where I was susceptible for an A. Not sure if this helps at all. But, the bottom line is that there was a lot that went into it. I am trying to figure it out myself. Give her patience. It will take time.




As I am the BS spouse too, I think the same thing. WB- have you considered things from your wife's perspective as a BS? On the one hand, you have had an A and did these exact things you are referring too, yet you then ask how she could do it. Didn't you do the same things? Didn't you come home and lie to her? Hadn't your family been torn apart by an A, yet you did it too? It's no different. You, of all people, know better than anyone because you did it to. You were experiencing the pain of the BS when you became the WS. You were in the thick of it all, yet you still did this.




Have you told her so she can hit the mark? Also, respect this as part of her R. Maybe she is doing it for herself too. Tell her what will hit the mark.




Why is it insulting for her to admit that she was not aware of her own needs until after the A? I did tell me H some of my needs and they went unmet. He had a chance to meet some of them, but he chose not to. He knew I wanted dates. He acted like all I was good for was SF. He had chances. Did I know all of my needs? No. And, I can own that.

I do understand the frustration on not being given a chance to right wrongs as my H had a bunch of resentments I found out about all at once. Yet, he had not given me the chance to work on many of them. When I said that it was not very fair that I had not been given a chance to improve on them, he said he had not known of them before. Well, that makes sense to me. How could he give me a chance to fix something he did not even know he wanted changed?




This sums up very nicely what I was feeling prior to my A. This is the main reason for my A too. But, I was not aware of a lot of these feelings on a conscious level. And, WB, your A was probably because of unmet needs on some level. You have said that your W left you emotionally. The A felt good because noone was meeting your needs at the time. It felt good to have them met. That is why it is so hard to stop.




Have you expressed it to her in this way and given her a chance to answer.

Wonkboy--You have said a lot in your posts about what you need to R, but how often do you share these things with your W? You are so very much like my H. How can she possibly meet your needs if you do not ask her or talk about this stuff? I bet she would love to know this stuff. Tell her. Let her be there for you. What is holding you back? Are you afraid of the answers? You seem irritated with her, but have you given her these answers yourself with regards to your A? And, have you ever worded things this way to her so she can meet these needs? Isn't that what you were upset with her about--not being given the chance to know what she needed and then having an opportunity to meet them? Seems to me like you are doing the same to her.
This is the chance for a new M where you do not repeat unhealthy patters. Start now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WonkBoy-





I have to say that from all the posts I have read of yours, there still sounds like there is irritation/anger at your FWW-- which is totally normal. But, you seem to want to deny it is there.

And, WB, if you do not let her in, if you do not share with her and give her a chance to meet these needs you have and answer your questions, you will lose her. Do you think you might be sabotaging your own R?

Maybe I am wrong, but your post sounds like you are giving up. Wasn't your wife's PA just revealed. It takes years for these Ms to heal, it seems a bit soon to be putting a period at the end of this sentence. Or, are you preparing yourself. Is this your fear? That she will leave you again?




All very normal feelings. So, build a healthy M with her. Try to be positive, it really does help.

(((WonkBoy)))

Agree completely.

This was true for me too.







WonkBoy- I agree. Is it possible focusing on her A helps you not to face your own? Is it more compartmentalizing? I know when I discovered my H's A, I was so hurt and devastated and kept asking how he could do this to me. How could you blindsind me with this when you knew how it felt? How could you...on and on and on. But, once getting out of the fog and further into R, I have had to ask myself those same very tough questions. I am no different.

WOE-

Wow, that is a horrible statistic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



I am working on this. I cannot change what I did. All I can do is learn from it so I never make the same mistakes again.

Thank you for your support!!

I think my H is in the same boat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



So true.




I hope my H gets to this place. We are not there yet.



I hope we won't either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I love you, Dorry. You are an inspiration to me in so many ways <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is true for most WS I imagine. There is no clear-cut answer as we do not know completely ourselves.

WonkBoy- Do you really need the answer to this or is it more about you being scared that if she cannot explain it then she cannot prevent it from happening again?

Killer Joe-

All very good points. Thank you for sharing.




I agree completely.





I think in my sitch, my H was my world. We were each other's best friends and very close. We had been very happy for a very long time. But, then we were hit with massive amounts of stress for a long period of time (years). All the things that are on the list of stressors--we had all the ones at the top of the list. I was not working, he was the sole bread-winner, we had a tough pregnancy, I was in severe pain, I was put on bedrest and could not care for my DTR, my MIL was here all the time,we were caring for twin newborns, one was very sick and was facing a life-threatening illness/death, I wanted to work but couldn't, we were sleep-deprived, money was tight, I had undiagnosed depression and then we moved into a house with triple the house-payment. This list goes on and on. I know I was at the end of my rope. I dreamed of getting away from it all (not an A). We both had not been having our needs met for quite a while. But, for me, I think the stress of that time and feeling he was not there was the catalyst. I had lost all my coping skills, was depressed, in pain, and my self-esteem was in the toilet. On top of that, my Dad and I and one of my close friends had a falling out all at the same time. All around me, the people I cared about where "abandoning" me when I needed them the most. And, then, the one person I could always count on did too. I think my coping mechanisms collapsed at that point.

Improving,

I would like to ask you a question on giving him space.

One thing that led to the problems in our marriage was we gave each other too much space, we did our own thing and ended up passing each other every day. No real conversations, no real time spent together. I was at fault to this as much as he was, maybe even more so.

What type of space do I give him? Space to think things out? I am just wondering what you mean by space.

Thank you so much for starting this post. It really does help to hear feelings from WS!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, BP <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maggie G-

I mean do not smother him too much at the beginning. Do not go on and on about what you need and seeking reassurance. Men tend to need to seek solace to work throught their feelings. However, do not give him so much space he thinks you do not care. Does this help at all?
It will take a while for him to get through WD and to be able to engage more in your M. Give him that time. Dr. Harley says do not try to meet his needs too much during this time as he most likely will not notice much. And, you will be resentful. Remember this is a marathon, not a sprint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I think I am expecting too much too soon. I need to slow down and breath! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you!

Maggie G-

Perfectly normal. I still was needing reassurance this evening (did not really get it, but I asked). It's hard because this is your H, the one you love, yet he may have a hard time meeting your needs right now. Try not to have too many expectations. Easier said than done, I know all too well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />