Good morning everyone. I'm up early because of a bad dream- H had porn again. Those of you out there that have H's that have given it up, how do you know that they are being truthful? How did they build your trust again? I want to trust him, but I'm afraid to. Even though I truly don't believe that he is addicted, I'm not sure he cares enough to respect my feelings. I wish he had never hid these stupid things from me! Help!

(((((needtotalk)))))

No easy answer, but the "answer" is: Time and Consistancy.

There is NO substitute for "walking the talk." The weakness and failure has been proven, now the strength and commitment likewise needs to be proven.

"Blind Trust" is gone forever. You only get one chance at it and it is irreplaceable. In it's place you can build "earned trust" and "given trust." You can begin the "given trust" in small areas that you are comfortable with, but the "big areas" that shattered the former "Blind Trust" will need repentance (turning 180 degrees away from, forever, the cause of the offense) and consistancy and much time to EARN (prove that they are now worthy of the vulnerablity of your emotions that you "Risk" when you trust someone) that desired trust. YOU have to be able to believe in your heart that you can "predict" their behavior when you are "not around." Think of all the terms that "label" someone who is NOT being faithful, and you can see all the "things" that need to be left in the past because they "climb down off the pedestal of self entitlement" and humble themselves to be YOUR servant, not because they "must," but because they CHOOSE to do so because they love you and are feeling heartfelt sorry over the sin they formerly choose AGAINST you (and also usually against their own "concept" of who they 'really are').

God bless.

NeedtoTalk,

I don't know your entire story but is he getting professional help for this? Is he obsessed with porn or is he just somewhat interested once in a while? Either way, if it is a problem for you, then it needs to be a problem for him. I know men that are obsessed with it and it is a big problem.

Forever is right - blind trust is gone for good. If he wants to be with you, he has to realize he needs to be accountable for what he does, and to meet your needs and vice-versa. That is what relationships are about.

Keith

Hi NeedtoTalk,

I don't have any words of wisdom, just wanted to let you know I'm in the same boat. I have no idea if I can ever trust him again, don't really know if I want to. I do know one thing - he'll have to take a lie detector test to make me want to start trusting again......

I took a very drastic approach. I have been trying to improve my marriage since our honeymoon. That was a disaster, so I started in right away with therapy. I have been lurking here for 4 1/2 years, read all the Harley's books, he read all the Harley's books, talked at length about my need for openess and honesty, admitted to him that I was so lonely I wanted to have an affair, continued therapy with at least 4 marriage counsellors; then found out right after labor day this year that he has been lying to me about porn for at least 6 years. Probably more.

I asked him to leave as soon as I found out. Went straight into Plan B. I know a lot of people wouldn't agree with that, but there it is. He's been out of the house since Sept. 6th. I haven't spoken to him, the one time I saw him, it sent me into a terrible spiral of anger.

I am working closely with a coach, we have an e-mail intermediary. My coach assures me that he wants me back, but I don't believe it. He wants to be with the kids, no doubt, but me? Why in the world should I believe that after our history? He's said some horrible things to me. Then he tells me that he had to go look at porn in order to deal with his "explosive" feelings about us not getting along.

Supposedly he isn't an addict, but I don't know if I believe that either. Right now, my coach doesn't, so I'll wait and see. I don't know what I'm going to do.

His family is non-supportive I gather. They've not been the healthiest of people for me, so while I didn't expect support, it hurts that they haven't once bothered to find out how I'm doing after I sent the exposure letter. Shoot, they even told me (in reply to the letter - and the request that they talk to him about doing the right thing) they had no idea we were having marriage problems - after their 38 year old son came to live at their house. Hummmmm.....

Not many understand how badly this has affected me. Most people think looking at porn is no big deal.

Truthfully, I was thankful to see you post this a.m. I've been too shy to bring this to the board, so thank you.

I'm thinking of you.

I was very glad to have found this site. I thought maybe I was just crazy and insecure, but I've read so many threads now that I realize I'm not alone. I don't know how to bring quotes from other parts of the forum, but my original story is in the "Living Together..." in the "Mens Sexual Behaviors" thread. I also recently posted in this forum with our updated info. I'm glad to not be alone!

I'm thinking about you too

Well, I can tell you that from my past, I never truly meant int when I said I would stop after W caught me. Sometimes I would mean it, but knew that I couldn't give it up. I would do what was necessary to "restore the peace" then try to hide it better. Finally, it got to where she said if she found it one more time she was divorcing me. To me, I knew I couldn't give it up, so I made sure none was in the house. I kept it at work. Then, one day, my work computer was found to have it. My wife still thinks that the only reason I sought treatment was because it was my job, not because she meant enough to me. But in truth, at that point, I knew I had to tell her I got caught at work, and in my mind I thought she would divorce me as she had promised to. I knew I could cooperate with work and get through it. I was in the Army and had already put in my papers to leave, was scheduled to leave in a few months, I knew the last thing they wanted was to spend time, money, and effort on a guy already leaving.

So I sought out counseling and tried to get to the root of my problem. I still don't understand why it affects me the way it does. The "urges" never go away. But I have learned to recognize the high price it has extracted from me, and can no longer rationalize it's use like I did in the past.


If your H has a problem with porn, and I don't like using the term "addiction", even though I have a problem I would rather use the term character flaw / weakness, whatever. I think using "addiction" cheapens that term. I think the problem men like me have is that we have never had to refuse instant gratification. We have been conditioned to give in to impulses. We didn't learn to accept delayed gratification, we didn't learn to mature out of selfishness and self centeredness.

If your H truly has a problem, you cannot trust him not to view porn. Over time, he will have to show you that his outlook on life, women, family, etc has changed, matured before you could attempt to accept that he is over the porn. Even then he will still have "urges". And you, his W, are not a good person for him to expect to turn to to discuss his weaknesses and urges in this respect. He really needs an accountability partner that he can call and discuss this with when he is having problems. Many churches or counseling centers have this. I don't have an accountability partner per say, but I have a friend who understands and helps me when I need it.

Your H does need counseling, and probably medication. Usually, a medication for obessive compulsive behavior is needed even if he isn't truly OCD. At the very least, the medication will allow him to suppress the urges until he can get new habits and behaviors in place.

I will tell you that if he resists seeing a counselor, resists treatment, then he isn't really serious about giving it up, just serious about telling you he is and trying to hide it better.

Good luck.

Nope, you're not alone. I too thought I was a crazy woman. Truthfully, I still wonder about it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

What has helped me more than I can say is the support I have gotten from friends I didn't even know I had. I don't have to tell you how worthless this can make you feel, how unloved or unwanted. Damage said he has an accountability "friend." I do too. She's helped me IMMENSELY. If you know of anyone who may be able to support you through this on a daily basis, please enlist her help. (No opposite sex accountability partners, please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) As you get stronger, perhaps you won't need daily support.

When I asked my H to leave, I was under the impression that he may be a sex addict. I searched a LOT of websites about it, got some books on help for partners. He may not be as deep into it as I first thought (or it might be worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />, God Fobid!), but the books were a comfort. If you are interested, look up SexAddict.com. The book I'm finding most helpful is "Parter's Recovery Guide, 100 Empowering Exercises." It brings out a lot of yucky feelings, but we're supposed to face those, right? Some of the exercises seem really tacky, but by golly, they work.

The book is also big on the 12-step program. I don't follow that, but the exercises are helping me face some of my insecurities.

My biggest fear is that my husband is doing what Damage did (hiding the porn even better). I'm not dealing with that cr*p. He either gets help or we live separate lives. To his credit, he did start with an emotion regulation treatment and he attended SAA for about 6 weeks. Our coach has agreed to him stopping SAA since he doesn't seem to have the same level of the compulsion (the urges that Damage talks about) as the people in his group.

And I'll second Damage. Your husband can NOT use you as a sounding board in his journey to stop porn usage. He needs to get himself a person who will help him overcome this. He can not do it alone, no matter what he may think.

I think Damage is spot on about believing behavior. If your H is unwilling to get treatment, to find an accountability partner, to be completely transparent with you - you've got to make some hard decisions. Get help for yourself first though so you can make the decisions.

It's a rough road we're on, huh?

I just wish I knew how big of a problem there really is/was. If the frequence of use really was only once or twice every couple of months, then I don't think that I would really be worried. But the fact that he hid it and lied straight into my eyes scares the **** out of me. All I can think is "What else is he hiding?" Is he going to do it again or is he still hiding some materials.

I also don't what to blow it out of proportion. What if he realized that he was losing me and is trying to be H&O. If you had a chance to read my original post you'd read that he also lied about having gone to a strip club, but he fessed up the next day. He could have lied, I wouldn't have ever known. I am upset that he went, but he said that he didn't want to go and that he felt uncomfortable being there. His buddies bugged him to go. One of them is a relentless scumbag, and even though my H CHOSE to go, I can kind of understand why. The damage has been done by the lies and hidden porn.

Damage- I've been reading your and your W's posts and my heart goes out to you both. You've both been through alot of heartache. I love the fact that you are both here for support. I just showed my H this site and I hope he will seriously look at it. I hope he sees what damage has been done by porn and lies to other M's. I also printed out the EN questionaire and asked him to fill it out.

SLA- Again, I'm so glad to have someone feel the same way I do. No one I've spoken to feels the way I do, but they are supportive nonetheless. I do have one person that I work with who I have confided in. Although she doesn't object to porn use she understands that I do and is a wonderful person to talk to. She helped me through the first several days and continues to "lend an ear". I, too, felt like I should have an affair. He claimed to not understand why I was so hurt and upset. I thought, "Well, that'll show him. Then he'll understand". To him it was only "human bodies" and to me it is borderline infidelity. And the lies have exascerbated (SP?) the pain.

I wish he would have just been honest!

H still hasn't looked at site, and I don't think he has started doing EN questionaire, but he did clean up kitchen and vacuum while I was out working. A much better way to spend "freetime"!!! Love deposit.

Hiya NTT,

I also wish I knew how big the problem is. He told me it was occasionally, told others periodically, then I bought a computer recovery program on-line and found out it's more like 2-3 times a week. He also told me he "usually" did it when he was angry at me, but I found dates that proved it was when I was in the hospital dealing with miscarriages, on holidays, on birthdays and just before & after happy family vacations.

He told me over and over that porn was digusting and degrading, that Satan (we're Christians) has messed up sex with porn, that he didn't really enjoy watching the live masturbation shows at the bachelor parties and skirted around what happened at his bach. party to the extent that I believed it was "innocent."

So, I personally don't think you can believe a word a liar says. He lied. My husband lied. Your husband actively misled you. Mine misled me.

Now that you've found out, I guarantee he's minimizing.

That's not to say that he isn't truly sorry, or doesn't really want to change. He might. He might also not be addicted. But he has to face what he's done, why he does it and learn how to replace the desire to do it when temptation arises again.

Your husband helping around the house is a way to minimize his guilt, to make him look like he's actually changing (without telling you the whole truth), and to get you to calm down. How do I know? Nine years of this kind of behavior has finally gotten through to me.

You can not know the extent of the problem until he tells you. He will not tell you unless he is forced to. I think you might want to consider counselling - at the least - to work on this one particular issue. Don't let him side track it. He may not feel comfortable with you in the session - which I could understand. So maybe he'd have to go alone for a bit until he could get the courage up to explain.

I personally don't want to know everything. It's bad enough knowing he went to prostitute sites chatting with underage women. Gross.

I do however want answers. And I won't trust him just giving them to me. He's going to have to take a test. My H is untrustworthy. He isn't going to like this (haven't told him yet), but he's the one who chose to lie while telling me he was the most honest person I'd ever meet, manipulating me into believing it. My H may even have to take more than 1 test.

I suppose that's harsh, but this is MY life, MY marriage and MY kids we're talking about. I'm not farting around with this. I will be respectful, I will chose compassion, but he will be held to the fire. I won't let this get even worse than it is without fighting.

So, personally, I think your first decision will have to be what are you willing to do to get to the truth? How much truth do you want to know? I honestly don't think you can decide these things yet. You should probably get help - most likely professional. How relived will you be to find out it isn't addiction? How horrified could you be to find out in 5 years that he's now visiting prostitutes (if he is addicted)? While I know that's worst case scenerio, it doesn't take much to cross the line to more serious infidelity (as shown on this site) especially if the moral walls are already coming down.....

If you want, I can recommend my coach to you. She's pretty good. She went through the Marriage Builders Program and has started a community/coaching practice of her own. My personal e-mail address is [email]NanciFaith@gmail.com.[/email]

Don't count on your H wanting to come to MB. I've tried to get mine here for almost 5 years. If your H is like mine, he truthfully doesn't think he has any kind of problem. He's willing to placate you - and may honestly think he'll stop - but when times get tough he won't have the tools to do what he needs to do.

Sigh.

Hugs to you, (((NTT)))

P.S. I haven't gotten a chance to read any of your story, I'm sorry. I have 2 kids that I homeschool and try to keep from tearing my house down. So if I'm off base on anything, I apologize.

Need - boy oh boy I wish I could give you an encouraging quip. But porn is a demon that has it's claws in more men than almost anyone realizes. i believe it to be worse than drug addiction, but I have never been addicted to drugs. Just porn.

Drastic measures are required to help him stop, and he must be willing to take drastic measures to change. For some men, never using a computer is required. Yes, that is drastic - but it is such a deep problem for men.

I used the site: www.recoverynation.com
It helped me change my very way of thinking. I had to undergo a paradigm shift. I quit porn Jan. 1 of 2005. I slipped for two weeks in May. I like to blame it on discovery of another affair - but it is MY issue. I have been free since then. The change of thought patterns - understanding what compulsive behaviour is - knowing when compulsive behaviour is occuring or about to occur - are all huge tasks. It is incredibly hard to do. After it is achieved, one must do maintenance to stay in the right frame of mind.

I do not know how to make him realize his issue. Possibly some other sites might be able to guide you. Maybe exposure???? Comments anyone??

As Damage_Inc says - you CAN NOT trust him. We make promises we intend to keep - but it seems impossible.

As with an affair - it is HIS responsibility to PROVE that he is clean. Sounds like a hard task. It is.

I got rid of my home office computer, and will not surf porn on the family computer. My job views all sites I visit - so I am well watched. AND - I am slowly changing my thought patterns. It beckons me sometimes. Best not to get on the computer at those times.

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I will pray for you and the men (and women) trapped by the claws of this predator.

Drastic measures. Face it, own it, and get moving. (Dr. Phil style <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

By the way - that book actually helps, too. Dr. Phil's book - Life Strategies.

Pray hard!

far

Hi again. I hope you are getting some good insight and support from those of us posting on this thread. Something that SLA said in her post really hit home with me, as well:



Exactly!! My H (Damage) would say or do almost anything to try to get me to "let it go" for the thousandth time. He would look me straight in the eyes and lie to me, tell me he would never use it again, or that he didn't have any when he did. I still don't know the full extent of everything he did, and honestly, I don't think I want to. As I said before, it is my opinion that you cannot let this go. I see some behavioral patterns in your description of your H that are very familiar to me. If you don't get this issue under control, it will eat away at your heart and soul, and eventually destroy your marriage. I don't ever want you to be where I am right now........

You know, porn can be something that can be shared between the two of you. Generally speaking men fantasize about the porn they are watching and use it as stimulation. It's how the porn is used to fantasize, and in what context that can be seriously damaging to yourself and others around you.

While the wife and I weren't meeting each others' emotional needs, I used porn as a crutch. However, I almost always fantasized about my wife watching it with me, enjoying it. Possibly recreating the images on-screen. I wasn't for once excluding my wife from my fantasies, it's just that I couldn't broach the topic with her, against it as she used to be.

I find now, that simply her openness to want to participate in watching it, even experimentally, makes me want the porn even less (it's a long story- but if you need to know- just ask). I find my emotional needs being met by my wife, and I no longer need the crutch. Still, it's nice that I no longer need to hide it from her. It's been nice to not lie to her... BIG Love Buster overall.

I know it's probably not the thing you wanted to hear, but I think porn can serve it's purpose in a relationship if not abused, obscene, or overused. I mean there was a time Adult toys would have been abhorred in our home, but now things are a tad bit different and sexually things have improved greatly thusfar. It has really relieved the strains in our marriage. Maybe your husband is thinking the same things I used to, too?

Hi Endless,

I've heard this theory before. I just don't get it. I'm not trying to slam you.

If my husband had wanted to share the porn, why did he go to such lengths to deceive me into believing that he hated it? I would bring this up with him, try to discuss what men found so appealing in it - all I ever got was "I don't know. I don't get it. I think it's disgusting." Or "we need to make sure the boys don't get hooked into that stuff. It's nasty."

Maybe that isn't what Need is getting from her husband. But the bottom line for me isn't just the porn. It's the deception and straight out lying to me that I am finding difficult to get over. Then telling me that it's my fault he had to go look at it because "we" couldn't get along!! Oh my. He used porn to drive a wedge between us.

I doubt I could ever be happy using porn as part of my sex life. But I would have been willing to discuss it with him, to try and see it from his point of view. Now, however, there is absolutely no way I could even begin to dream of allowing it in my house. The hatred I feel for that stuff and the revulsion I feel for my husband in going to that instead of me is overwhelming.

It's nice to hear that you were able to finally talk to your wife about it. That you are glad the lies are done with. That's encouraging to me - perhaps now that he's been caught lying, he'll stop, and work with me.

Thanks for your point of view.

I think in my case, why I hid it from my wife intially was because it's embarrassing, and taboo. To admit that your husband fantasizes about you doing those things is probably shameful to him. I felt that it was a "tool", and something that "healthy" relationships never needed. I felt this way to a tee. It wasn't until after my wife's cybersex incident and emotional affair that I told her everything about myself, including my fantasies, as well as discussing hers (since this is where the cybersex stemmed from). I had nothing left to lose, so to put everything on the table, face up, was my only option left to me.

Luckily, things worked out a bit better for me than some. Ever since my second child was born, my wife has had an increasing libido, and an increasing interest in this avenue of exploring her sexuality. She was scared to approach me on the subject because of her past views and fear of seeming hypocritical. Previously, she was always dead-set against porn; yet not all is violent or derogatory to woman.

We share a same interest in what we wish to watch though, so our similarities in sexual desires and preferences merge nicely. I'm glad I can be there to do this for her, and vice versa. If I'm not there to help her "explore", then there's always someone else.

Still, if your husband does have these fantasies, him owning up to it is unlikely, especially if he's still condemning it in the same breath; this will only lead to him concealing the urge further (trust me I know- the wife caught me viewing it occasionally through files found on the computer, yet I refused to stop and justified it wholeheartedly, all the while lying to her, telling her I was going to stop). Still, if you're against it, he has to be able to stop for your sake.

I understand your pain though. Finding out how my wife was talking to this "chap" online was crushing, yet to her was hardly anything but fantasy- she equated it to my porn-viewing. Since coming here, I have realized just how subjective the idea of "cheating" is, and in many regards am happy that both of us used fairly unobtrusive ways to help us through this tough time in our lives. If it weren't for the porn, I would have probably already cheated on my wife a long while ago.

That really hurts admitting that, but it was the porn that I used to replace the loveless sex I was having then with my wife, with something much more fantastical, and alot less damaging than a purely physical affair. The same could be said of my wife, while she was talking with someone online for a while, and developed a relationship, the phyisical aspect never manifested, and I was allowed in turn a "second chance".

Good luck to you.

Hey EH,

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the discussions on porn at the moment. I know it's because of the hurt I feel, so I'm trying to not get too emotional.

I don't know what fantasies my H has. I've asked, he's told me he doesn't have any. He tells me he rarely thinks about sex. He isn't looking for anyone supposedly, yet he's frequenting "adults seeking" sites.

I take that back. He did have one fantasy that he finally told me about. I provided it for him on a continuing basis, then he lost interest.

So while I understand that somehow porn has enhanced your marriage (I'm really, really sorry. I just can't understand that!!), it has done nothing but destroy mine. It can't be allowed, even if he thinks it would help.

I don't know if I'm a prude, but if he can't live without it, then I'd rather be like WomanofFaith. I'll divorce, and with God's grace find a man who will actively live the life he portrays.

It's all confusing to me right now. I want to love and trust my H again, but he revolts me. I lost almost all my deposits over the past 5 years. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Sorry to threadjack NTT. I'm thinking of ya.

sadly, I know the feeling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

In my case, my WxH never cared if I loved or trusted him again. he said "I like porn, and you don't. OW likes it too, so that means she and are meant to be together." Of course, he is no longer with that soul mate. He had to find another one.

I just don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I didn't D my WxH because of his porn use. he just refused to give it up, refused to give up OW, and insisted on D. Out of the ashes of that broken R, I have manged to build a better life.

My apologies WomanofFaith. I didn't actually mean to imply that you divorced your husband because of his porn use. I didn't realize how that sounded.

But I would like to have an ending like yours. A man who actually lives the life he preaches! My word, how sexy would THAT be!

I loved your post on SmartCookie's thread, btw. Thanks for posting it.

Dear N2T,

I once embraced the philosophy that Endless Horizon espouses. It cost me my sex drive, my self esteem, and my self-respect. It reduced something sacred and wonderful between my husband and myself to the baseness of animals. I hated myself for having participated in it for one second. I hated what it had cost me. To this day, those wonderful tingly feelings have NEVER come back.

So go ahead - give in to the devil that some would advocate enhance a marriage. But I know this for a fact: it has not enhanced mine. It very nearly destroyed it; and my husband has still not recovered his self-respect because he is still trapped in it.

Needtotalk - Just curious before I venture anymore into this discussion, are you and your husband Christians?

EndlessHorizon - You know, porn can be something that can be shared between the two of you. Generally speaking men fantasize about the porn they are watching and use it as stimulation. It's how the porn is used to fantasize, and in what context that can be seriously damaging to yourself and others around you.

Okay, all in favor of EndlessHorizon's wife starring in a Porn flick so that we can all "fantasize," raise your hands?

How about you, EndlessHorizons? Or if not the wife, how about your sister or daughter?

MARRIAGE was given to us so that we don't have to "burn with lust." It was given to us to "complete" us in each other, not through others debasement of themselves. It was given to us for LOVE, not for personal agendas or "rationalizations." It was given to us to create the mystery of "one flesh" and there is room in a marriage for ONLY husband, wife, and God. NO third party, not in person or in video or in cyberspace, is to be allowed in any marriage that hopes to be successful. How about a little "drugs" because that will "stimulate?" Let the "camel's nose" into the tent, and then later be "surprised" that the whole camel is in there and living with camel in the tent is NOT conducive to a good marriage?

Perhaps you might want to rethink the ramifications of thinking Porn is "harmless."

God bless.

In all honesty, complete honesty, when I did porn it was always about a quick easy physical release.

Again, in 100% honesty, I cannot remember ever feeling that way with my W. With her it was always an intimate event. It was meaninglful to me. It made me feel close to her. I never thougth about the porn when I was with her.

I am not saying this is how it is with other guys, but it is how it was with me.

And that is not to minimize the overwhelmingly bad influence of porn. It was still wrong of me.

I must be brief, I'm at work. Thank-you for all of your support, please keep it coming. I'll be more available tomorrow. SLA- Ill email you, I think we can help each other.

thanks again.

"I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the discussions on porn at the moment. I know it's because of the hurt I feel, so I'm trying to not get too emotional."

• 
  Well, this course of action isn't for everyone, granted. I mean it's only been 3 weeks since my blowout that led to the porn viewing, and in turn it's fresh and new to me. However, I too was a closet porn viewer for ages. Funny thing is I used to be pretty adverse to it once upon a time. It wasn't until a friend of mine (who viewed it constantly) got me curious.

"I don't know what fantasies my H has. I've asked, he's told me he doesn't have any. He tells me he rarely thinks about sex. He isn't looking for anyone supposedly, yet he's frequenting "adults seeking" sites."

• That highlighted sentence sounds eerily familiar to me. Heh. IMO and experience it sounds like he may becoming a little detached from you for the time being. In my case, I used porn as a "substitute" to the loveless sex I was getting, and it satisfied the carnal craving without needing to physically cheat. Like I said though, my wife was still the star of the show if you know what I mean! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I take that back. He did have one fantasy that he finally told me about. I provided it for him on a continuing basis, then he lost interest."

• Hmmm, sounds a bit like I did. I had a lot of repressed fantasies because they were too embarrassing to bring up. I always considered my wife to be prudish too, but holy ****** was I wrong! I'm glad I found that side of her out too! LOL Okay I degress. My point being, I think, was that while your husband was expressing a need, he probably wanted more, or variety. Fantasies are good for what they are... sometimes acting them out can be both good and bad, no?

"So while I understand that somehow porn has enhanced your marriage (I'm really, really sorry. I just can't understand that!!), it has done nothing but destroy mine. It can't be allowed, even if he thinks it would help."

• Yeah, like I said, to each their own. However, it's new to me yet, 3 weeks, in fact, and viewing it with the wife is a new experience. She says she's into it, and time will tell. However, just the candid nature, and willingness to experience new things sexually with me is depositing major love units... hehe.

"I don't know if I'm a prude, but if he can't live without it, then I'd rather be like WomanofFaith. I'll divorce, and with God's grace find a man who will actively live the life he portrays."

• Hmm, now that (bold) statement to me I can't fathom. LOL That's rough. People hide all forms of secrets all the while portraying a facade. It's probably that attitude that's scaring your husband into silence. I think you guys maybe should look into sex counceling or maybe a sexual intimacy video...? *shrugs* That may be the catalyst needed to break your husband out of his shell, while you still save face.

"It's all confusing to me right now. I want to love and trust my H again, but he revolts me. I lost almost all my deposits over the past 5 years. I don't know what I'm going to do."

• That's tough. I hope you the best. I understand your pain though. To sum up, porn's not even remotely thought about these days; I don't "cruise" for porn anymore, and would prefer just picking up a xxx-movie with a cheesy plot for the wife and I. Who knows, maybe in a few weeks, my fancy has changed!? I'll let you know if it does! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yummy! I shouldn't need to remind anyone here that we ARE animals, copulating like them isn't wrong. It's the raw emotion that's wonderful. And I can share that with my wife. Nothing turns me on more than my wife grinning devishly because she knows she's gonna get "it". Rrrwwr! To say that a reduction occurs because of a more "passionate" or "baser" urge to have sex, is way off IMO. However, the closer I get to an animal in bed, the better the tingles for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Trust me, we are considering making our own tape... I also want mirrors all over the walls and adult toys! She's down with it! W00t! I also have told her my fantasy about cunnilingual stimulation of her under a busy restaurants' table, somewhere in a dark corner. Am I a perv? LOL I don't know. I don't think I'm harming anyone if I were to act this out. That's public sex you know... pornography!

I don't want my daughter or wife, nor myself in the movies for mainstream viewing; however, that's not my choice of vocation, nor my wifes'. Which brings up my 2 YO daughter... If my daughter needs to be in that industry (whether it be stripping or other forms of "adult" entertainment), and as long as she's clear headed, and not being hurt, I can only accept it. I wouldn't make her an outcast because of her choices. However, being manipulated, harangued, or coerced into that position, I would not tolerate, and would die for her to extract her from that situation if I needed to.

Being so critical of the industry shouldn't be your goal. It'll be there for a long time to come, whether you want it to or not. It's ingrained in the culture now. Accepting it puts the money in the ladies' hands where it belongs, and not some "pimps'".

Speaking of the industry, I can tell you there is LOT'S of disrespectful and regunant stuff out there. That's not me, it's not what I'm looking for, and I agree that many of the "directors" should probably be locked up tightly for some of the stuff released. A monitored industry regulates safer and more restrictive policies (or so we hope). Also keep in mind, that I don't "need" it or demand that my wife views it, it's just another tool like a vibrator or edible oils.

Wow! Have you ever noticed that this website/forum is pretty busy? This forum for the most part is a haunting ground for lost souls. There's obviously plenty of people out there who tend to disagree with you. Why are you here? Did your significant other tend to disagree with your above views on marriage too, and felt like "adding" another party to the formulae? Are you saying that because my wife strayed, it's never going to be "successful" again? Unfortunately I vehemently reject your opinion , I'm normally a little more open-minded than that, my apologies.

Forever Hers, thank you for your post. It was right on.

EH


I believe that everyone who has psoted on this thread actually agress with FH, that is why they are here. The original poster is suffering from the pain of her H's continued porn use, and she is looking for support. that is why FH posted here.
Furthermore, everyone who posts here has suffered from the pain of infidelity, and for you to throw that back at FH like it was somehow his fault, is just not appropriate.

This has been a good thread for me. For the most part it was a place to come and say "My WxH's porn use was way out of control, made me feel like crap, and frankly contributed to the down fall of my M". It has been nice to have a place where I could go and just vent, without hearing the standard line that "all men do it, it is normal, they are visual"

I wanted to have a chance to stand up, and shout to the world that there ARE men who don't look at porn! I am now married to one of those men! And he is the sexiest man in the world. He makes me feel loved, and cherished, and that in turn fuels my desire for him. He puts me above all other women. And that makes him sexy.

Several people here are trying to say that porn has hurt them! EH - I, for one, went the route you and your wife are currently going. I told my WxH that I would view porn with him, beleiving that as long as we did it together it would somehow improve our R. It did not. the more I saw of it, the lower I felt. When I tried to back off of it I was labelled a prude. I wish I had it all to do over again. I would have put my foot down and said no third party is going to enter into my marriage! For my WxH the pictures progressed to movies, the movies progressed to carrying on relationships with OW by email, then by phone, and finally in person. My WxH left me for OW #1, she dumped him, and then he started an A with another married woman. he has completely lost sight of all boudaries in marriage-in his M and those of other people as well. It is very sad.


I need to get off this thread now, becuase it as taken a bad turn that hurts my heart.

FH- keep fighting for the sanctity of M. Those of us who stand for the Godly view of marriage, between H and W ONLY, need to be more vocal. We need to show ourselves to the light of day so that people are no longer saying that EVERYONE views porn. Instead, we need to stand up and say "not everyone, not me".

"...We need to show ourselves to the light of day so that people are no longer saying that EVERYONE views porn. Instead, we need to stand up and say "not everyone, not me".

Well, I for one am not totally convinced I'm insulting people here. I may be a little secular in my beliefs, but I still share the same values at their core. For FH to imply that I would "like" my family to be a part of the industry under the guise of an opinion is insulting, and borderline incestuous.

I think both you and I agree that there are plenty of heartbroken souls here. It's just that it's also pretty obvious that his demagoguery isn't well thought out- we're on an Infidelity website for Pete's sake! Third parties are an obvious inclusion to all here, sorry to say. If you prefer to use porn as a "tool", then why not? Arguing the moral implications is, I think, best left for another website, one I never signed up to post on- that's for sure.

I have been saying my piece, and in doing so, have said many things to help others. Mainly directed at SoLostAgain; but anyone who wants to can read what I'm saying and dissect the underlying problems I had with porn and my relationship. You're right- not everyone views porn, great. However, my wife made an effort to please me, and regardless if it works or not, it's scoring huge Love Bank Deposits right now!

I'm not forcing anything upon my wife, against her wishes. This is a mutual decision. Read the POJA for further info.

Those who don't wish to participate with the porn, can also read why I hid it from my wife for so long, and possible ways out of such a conundrum. In future I'll try to stick with just replying to those replying to me. Sorry to cause you to grief.

Okay, I think I may have a glimmer of why your posts bother me.

You keep intimating that if I were just a little more open he would share with me. That he wants more variety, more fun, more whatever.

What I don't think you are understanding is that I have been! He flat out refuses to talk about it. If you will remember my first posts to NTT, I stated I've dragged us to Marriage counsellors 4 times. Two of them for sexual healing. He refuses to do any of the exercises, sulks and will not particpate. I come to bed naked, rubbing up against him, and all he can tell the therapist is that I'm not aggressive enough, he's too tired, he just isn't in the mood.

We were lucky to have sex 2ce a month. I can't even begin to tell you how lucky I feel to even HAVE children.

This is NOT MY FAULT. He is the one chosing to go to these women on these sites. I have tried over and over and over again. I got the sex tapes. I asked him to try the various positions. I bought him books on books on books with illustrations and recommendations. STILL HE CHOSE PORN.


OOOOOOOO. I am angry - but not at you. At your attitude really. If he saw the stuff you were writing, he'd used that to justify what he did and contiues to do.

It has only been 3 weeks for your experience you say. So, would you agree with me that porn is progressive? What happens when what you're watching now doesn't do it for ya? What happens when she wants to include other people?

Maybe it's because I'm a Christian, maybe it's because I was raped at a young age and sexually exploited in my teens and 20s. But it is absolutely BEYOND me how you can be so blind to the negative aspects of what you are doing.

But you're right. To each his own. I can't condemn you. Even God allows you to make whatever choice you want to. Just stop trying to make it sound like I'm the problem between my husband and I.

Now, it's possible you didn't even mean that in the slightest. If not, I apologize. But don't ever, ever say to me again that if I would just be more open, he'd come to me. Oh no. I'm the open, adventurous one. He's the one that has and is consistently refusing any sexual healing in our marriage. NINE YEARS OF TRYING.

AHHHHH! You've really upset me. LOL.

Thanks for your perspective anyway.

EndlessHorizon – There is little point in discussing anything with you, but I’ll give it one last try. We come at things like obedience to God and the sanctity of marriage from different perspectives. Of course there are plenty of people “out there” who disagree with me. That’s not surprising, humans have been “disagreeing” with God for a long time and will also disagree with anyone who stands for God’s commands and teaching. Of course there are lots of people on this forum who are trying to deal with the devastation of affairs that were entered into, in many cases, “innocently” at the beginning and the got out of hand. One truth you can take to the bank whether you agree with me or not is that ALL actions have consequences. The “jury is in” with respect to Pornography, just look at all the research and life testimonies of people affect by the “victimless” problem of pornography. But for the folks who are here, they are here because they believe in the sanctity of marriage and are trying to “right the ship” after the violent hurricane has struck.



Uh huh. Rationalization is in high gear. It’s “okay” if someone else does it. It’s “okay” if you use it and bring it into your marriage. It’s “acceptable” if your daughter chooses that.

I assume it’s also okay if your wife, because as long as she's clear headed, and not being hurt, CHOOSES to engage in an affair, by extension of your own stated “LOGIC.” Therefore, I would be curious as to why YOU are on marriage builders if there’s no “right and wrong” behavior, only that which is “acceptable” because someone “chooses” that behavior.

Rationalization, situational ethics, justifications….they are ALL used to “excuse” wrong behavior. If your set of “standards” let’s you do whatever you feel like doing, you are welcome to your opinion. But I claim the same right you claim for yourself and do not need you to try to “win your argument” through your sarcasm.

“Speaking of the industry, I can tell you there is LOT'S of disrespectful and regunant stuff out there. That's not me, it's not what I'm looking for, and I agree that many of the "directors" should probably be locked up tightly for some of the stuff released. A monitored industry regulates safer and more restrictive policies (or so we hope).”

More of the same rationalization. A “little sin” is good just so long as we keep it “regulated” and “sanctioned.” Right. Care to extend that logic to other situations? WHO decides WHERE the “line is drawn” and how much of the “camel’s nose” to let into the tent while thinking you can keep him from getting fully into the tent?



EH, you’re “playing with fire” and hoping you never get burned. Good luck. You want to play and use toys, have at it. There is little that a husband and wife can’t do that they mutually agree to. But pornography is in a totally different class than costumes and mechanical aids.

"It has only been 3 weeks for your experience you say. So, would you agree with me that porn is progressive? What happens when what you're watching now doesn't do it for ya? What happens when she wants to include other people?"

• Threesome? Well, heh, that was one of my fantasies that I confessed to, and she was utterly shocked (again because she had fantasized about this herself for years since she was a teenager) that I would be sensitive enough to want to pleasure her with another partner. Before I get smote though- let me explain why we're introducing the porn. We don't think it's practical, nor proper to introduce a threesome. As well, it can be emotionally unhealthy and extremely damaging to our relationship. I care about my wife, and sharing her with another is simply out of the question. So in lieu of the real thing, we "simulate" the experience with a movie. It feels like another is in the room, the actions onscreen mimic our fantasies, and no one gets hurt.
  
  As for my viewing habits? They have dropped considerably since the wife and I began watching the videos. I don't think it's progressive for me, I never really was "addicted" to it to begin with though. All the wife needed to know was that I'm not replacing our sexual experiences with someone I'm watching on-screen. I can assure her, I don't. I feel free now, our talks on sexual fantasy, experiences, hopes and wishes has been entirely liberating and filled with growth potential.
  
  If the movies aren't fulfilling anymore? We stop watching them, and we'll begin with the role-play. I'll be the mean old rent-collector, and yet again, my wife does not have enough money for the bills this month. *sigh* Now, the rent collector needs [i]something in return, I wonder what that could be... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />[/i]

"Maybe it's because I'm a Christian, maybe it's because I was raped at a young age and sexually exploited in my teens and 20s. But it is absolutely BEYOND me how you can be so blind to the negative aspects of what you are doing.

But you're right. To each his own. I can't condemn you. Even God allows you to make whatever choice you want to. Just stop trying to make it sound like I'm the problem between my husband and I."

• Oh please SoLostAgain! Give me credit. It's not your fault at all. What I explained, I drew from my own personal experiences, NOT from some written-in-stone psychology textbook. It sounds like the problem resides fully in your husbands' head, and if he's choosing porn over you, then that really sucks. I'd be pissed to. You seem to have been receptive to various ideas and potential solutions, while he rejects them. That's truly sad. If he were to read this thread, I can assure you, I would NOT enable him to continue hurting the woman he's supposed to love and cherish...

"STILL HE CHOSE PORN."

• Again, I don't know what to say. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones. I don't think repressing sexual desires is a good thing though. Being too free is just as damaging as well. You'll both need to find a fine balance I think, something that suits you both. However, if what you've described is true, he doesn't seem to think you're serious enough about his viewing habits. Maybe you should kill the internet connection, and destroy his porn collection?
  
  Sorry to get you all wound up, it wasn't my intention at all, nor was it to infer that what is happening in your life is entirely your fault, it isn't; however, more likely than not, there are under-lying issues you're both bringing to the table that are causing this problem to continue. If it bothers you so much, why haven't you thrown his [censored] out of the house yet? If something was so morally offensive to me, there's no way it'd be thriving in my household. Again, I wish you luck. I know how terrible it must be for you, especially considering your horrible past experiences.

"I assume it’s also okay if your wife, because as long as she's clear headed, and not being hurt, CHOOSES to engage in an affair, by extension of your own stated “LOGIC.” Therefore, I would be curious as to why YOU are on marriage builders if there’s no “right and wrong” behavior, only that which is “acceptable” because someone “chooses” that behavior."

• Well, if you look under which posts I have made, you'll see why I'm here. As for my wifes' decisions? I'm not her keeper. I can only support her fully, respect her and her Emotional Needs, and hope for the best. I unfortunately took her for granted, and treated her as though I didn't love her. I realized my mistakes. Despite my actions, I had full faith in her, yet (understandably) she betrayed me.
  
  There's nothing more that I can do to assure myself that she won't do that again. Hopefully the freedom in our discussions these days opens the doors wide to a productive, affair-free relationship. If not... well, I can say I tried, that's it. I'll cross those bridges when I come to them. Yet I have faith in our bond, I'm more than certain I will grow old with her, and die with her.

"More of the same rationalization. A “little sin” is good just so long as we keep it “regulated” and “sanctioned.” Right. Care to extend that logic to other situations? WHO decides WHERE the “line is drawn” and how much of the “camel’s nose” to let into the tent while thinking you can keep him from getting fully into the tent?"

• The government regulates TONS of industries that could be classified as "sinful"... booze, drug companies, banks, smoking industry, gambling, mass media, weapons trade, the choices are endless. It's when the trades and industries go "underground" that the camel is more than free to walk where it likes- a good example would be the street drug trade. Regulate that stuff, and the average creep on the corner would be put out of business next to the government controlled industries/products.

LOL. I knew this subject would be very explosive for me, but it's good that I can talk to you without you calling me a dimwitted prude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yep, I've gotten that before....

I guess I wasn't very clear in earlier posts. The boy is no longer living here, I refuse to speak to him until he answers questions and takes a lie detector test. What he has done is beyond offensive to me. He also says he is not addicted to porn. I don't know.

Like I said before, it very well could be because I was raped, then molested on several occasions that I have such strong reactions to all of this. All of my molestations happened because of porn use by the perpetrator. So that may give you a good idea why I thought you were saying it was all my fault. I've gotten that more often than you know.

None of the MCs knew of H's activities. I was told I had a higher sex drive, I just needed to be more aggressive, I could never say no, I could never tell him if he was making me uncomfortable, yada yada. All because he led everyone to believe that he was a moral, upright standing Christian who finds porn offensive and a source of objectifying women which is just totally wrong.

I worry at attitudes like yours. I'm trying to figure out why. To me, it seems like such a crazy thing to do. Why invite a scorpion in bed just because it might add some spice?

As I said, it isn't my place to condemn you. I certainly didn't want to come across that way. Your (and your wife's) decision is more than frightening to me. I'm afraid my husband will look at people like you, then tell me unless I am open & willing, I am unworthy of being touched.

I've given guidelines on what my H needs to do to even get me to give him the time of day. Where I am now is a place of frightened anger. I don't want to contemplate trusting him again. I don't want to be used again. I don't want to feel so totally unlovable as I have for the last 9 years.

Thanks for taking my outburst in stride. I know it helps to talk these kinds of things out, but this is a totally new experience to me, so I'm sure I'll look like a crazy fool again at some point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And again NTT, I've just taken over your thread. I hope my questions, rants and so forth are helping. I'll be waiting to hear from you.

God bless.

Post moved to this thread

NTT-
Are you still around? Did you, by any chance, read the separate thread I started in this section of the forum to ask a question about my husband's porn use (so as not to interfere with your thread)? If not, check it out. At the moment, it's on page 3. "Just Learning" wrote some things that were particularly helpful to me. I don't know whether they apply to your situation, but you might find a useful insight or two there. I'm thinking of you...
--SC

Hi NTT,

I hope the discussions about the porn issue from both sides haven't scared you off. I certainly don't want to contribute to someone leaving the forum.

I hope you have been considering what you are willing to do to find the truth from your H. As well as how much you want to know. At first, I wanted to know EVERYTHING, but after my initial digging around, I'm not so sure anymore. My coach is going to give H a list of questions (last time I looked I think it was up to 16 pages!), but I'm getting more and more scared at what the answers will be.

I'm sure you realize that this issue won't just go away. It has to be faced head-on and faced now. It's a scary proposition, but you're well worth it.

Let us know if you're still there.

Deleted. Transferred to thread started by Suzete.

Hey SoLostAgain, I don't mind the debates, but the moralistic arguing is something I don't need. I've pretty much summed up my case here. I wish you the best in the dealings with your husband. Sounds like there's a tough time ahead for you.

Again read through my posts, and how I saw things from a mans' perspective, without the moral quibbles inbetween, and you may find some truth... or not. I'm not here to judge, just give my side of the story. Either way... I wish you release from your emotional storm.

PS- I wouldn't think of calling you a "dimwitted prude". Heh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Everyone,
I'm sorry that I disappeared for awhile. Sun-Tues are my busiest days and I just couldn't get on the computer long enough to write anything.

SC-I read your other post and what everyone said makes sense. So now that we have decided to get our H's addicted to us, how do we go about doing it? My H has a hard time telling me about his "feelings". I printed out the EN questionaire, but he hasn't touched it. I finished mine. I asked him to do it last week and suggested we exchange them this Friday, he agreed. So, we'll see.

Sorry, Endless, but I agree with most of the other posters. I don't want porn in our R. I don't agree that porn is in the same catagory as toys, oils, etc. When using toys the focus is still on one another, no other human is involved. I actually know someone who was so happy about how open his wife was about porn use and strip clubs, until she cheated on him with a woman. I have to wonder if she was really "fantisizing" about him or the woman. I know a few other people that don't see a problem with it and oddly enough, they are either divorced or dealing with affairs. To each their own, but this is not something I am open to.

SLA- I am very much like you. I wouldn't mind giving my H SF everyday if he wanted it. I have initiated alot of adventurous things, role playing, food, oils, toys, etc. I want to know my H's "fantasies", as long as they involve only me. I even made a strip tease video for him after the previous time we disagreed on the porn issue. So it hurts me deeply that he still decided to hid these videos from me.

I want to satisfy him, and I'm not against masterbation, I just don't like the use of porn. I feel that it is "mental adultery", being stimulated by the sight of another woman.

Things have been going well between us and I think that scares me more. I wonder if it is guilt, or he's trying to pacify me, or covering up more lies. I really, really want to believe that he cares about how hurt I was and that, even though he doesn't understand why I feel this way, he is willing to respect and protect my feelings. I don't know if my feelings for him can take another hit.

NTT,

I wish I had some insightful thoughts for you. You may just need to be patient for awhile... kind of see where things go. Try not to obsess about it. Try to have some fun with your husband. I am really fortunate. My husband has made everything as easy for me as anyone possibly could. He has really treated me well through this whole mess. I think he's already addicted to me. YIKES!

Here's a wacky idea. It just came to me. When your husband does fill out the EN questionaire, have some sort of "thank you" surprise ready for him. I'm thinking something nonsexual would be best. If it were my husband, it might be tickets to a sporting event or comedy show, or a new CD, or a promise to do all the cooking all weekend (as much as that would kill me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I don't know what your guy likes, but give it some thought. My thinking behind this is: even if he's doing nice things just to pacify you right now, if you show that you're going to do nice things back, it might start this wonderful vicious cycle of good deeds.

The reason JL's post over on my thread was so helpful to me is that it helped clarify what my husband's porn use was really all about -- an escape, a stress reliever if you will. It really wasn't a way to get SF at all. My husband even says it had gotten to the point that there was nothing 'satisfying' about it (even when, tecnically... physically... you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). That's why I suggested that your 'thank you' gift be nonsexual.

You seem to be focusing on all the ways you can provide him with SF. Yes, I think that's important in the grand scheme of things -- especially if you enjoy the adventures too! But if his use of porn is more about escaping when he feels sad, stressed, angry, frustrated, overwhelmed, inadequate or whatever feelings he's trying to escape from, SF from you isn't necessarily going to help with that. I could be way off base, here. I have no idea why your husband is really drawn to it. I bet he doesn't even know. I'm pretty sure my husband didn't. He does now, but only in hindsight.

Hang in there, kiddo, and keep us posted.

--SC

SC- That is a great idea! Thank you.

What has your H done to prove to you that the "materials" are gone? It would be easier for me to believe him if this was the first time, but in essence, it's the third. He tried to justifly this time by saying that it wasn't porn. It was just woman, alone, no sex. But I'm sorry, they were naked, strutting around, and the videos were hidden and lied about. He said, "Well at least I don't have any f**k videos". I explained that these were even worse IMO. For the ones with intercourse, at least it would be the act that would be sexually stimulating, but for these videos it was the woman, her body, and looks that were to be stimulating. I think he understood.

I have also been following some of Damage_inc and BT's posts and I find them to be frighteningly familiar. Not everything, but many things sound like my H and I. If things in our M were to continue on as they were just a month or two ago, I could see us fighting many of the same battles. Its scary and has given me even more reason to really persue a more intimate M. I just hope I can get my H to come with me.

You guys (NTT & SC) are so strong! I just realized in posting to Endless Horizon how I don't seem to have the emotional strength you two do to deal with this. I just want to wail over it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Good idea about the EN worksheet. I'll probably be watching this thread closely for practical ideas. I'm very good at analyzing, not so good at implementing.

So NTT, what have you decided about the truth? What do you want to know and what are you willing to do to get to it? If you're happy with the way things are going, great! I just want to caution you to really think about what it is you want. Don't overlook it because things are going well, KWIM?

I'm thinking of you both.

I don't really have much to contribute, just wanted to chime in with a "me too" as I'm having a similar problem trusting my husband about porn. Its the only thing we've ever fought about, he's promised numerous times to stop over the past two years but I've always caught him doing it again. His most recent promise was the most sincere sounding one yet, but I'm not convinced he's done with it for good and worry that he just hasn't had time to really look lately and that as soon as he gets his new work hours and has time alone (except for maybe the baby) he'll fall right back into it. He recently bought a laptop and I worry he might be using it to look at porn. He gives me access to it, but that doesn't stop him from looking and then deleting it from the history. On my own computer its easy enough to check the history and temporary internet files as I know when I cleaned them out last and can tell if they've been messed with, but I don't have that with his computer. I'd like to trust him, but there of been so many lies that I just can't bring myself to in this area. I'd like to think he has more respect for my feelings now that he claims that he understands how hurtful his actions have been, but he went and bought that darn laptop despite my obvious misgivings about it. But such is life and I know how you feel. I'll shut up now since I don't belong here as there has been no infidelity in my marriage so far. >.>;

Oh no, schnln, you belong here.

As far as I know, my husband has not actually met anyone, had sex with anyone but himself or me, nor do I believe he has emotionally become involved with another woman.

However, he has proven unfaithful to me in sharing sexual activities in on-line chat rooms and has looked at other women with lust. That is infidelity in my book, and in many others too.

This is a devastating thing. I went immediately into Plan B and broke it only once when I lost control on the phone. My boys were talking to him and I grabbed the stupid thing out of their hands, screaming at him that I hoped he died. I have never screamed at him in that manner. It was horrible to me and evidently it was to him too because he said to my coach in amazement - this has really hurt her! (I was sneaking looks at his e-mail correspondance). Uh, duh.

Anyway, I feel for you. I am pretty hard nosed about all this, having taken really drastic measures. The thing that I think you too will need to contemplate is what are you willing to do to hold him to his promise? I let my husband run over me time and time again because I didn't want to make waves - and I didn't even KNOW he was consuming porn. You do know. It seems that much worse to me.

I'm thinking of you, praying for us all. God bless.

I think our R may have just taken that final hit. I will be brief since he's lurking around. I will need you guys and your advice more than ever. I will be back online tomorrow, please, if you can, be here!

Hey SLA,

you wrote:



After what you have been through, I think it's perfectly understandable that you want to wail. Rant. Rave. Heck, throw an all-out temper tantrum!!! Sounds to me as though you ARE dealing with it. Just because you feel all torn-up inside sometimes does not mean you are weak. Just because you need to vent sometimes does not mean you are weak. We all feel that way sometimes. Please -- give yourself a break!

-SC

Okay guys, now I really need your support. Last night my H spanked our almost 3 year old son. I don't think that spanking is a bad thing if used timely, I was spanked when I was a child and I don't think I've suffered any ill effects. So I asked what he was doing that warrented a spanking. H said that S was kicking at him while he was changing his diaper and so he spanked him and "got him good." H when out on porch for a cig so I looked at S's tush. Red hand print. I asked H how long ago it happened. He said 15 minutes ago, and told me to drop it. I showed him the mark and said that if it is still there after 15 minutes has past then he hit him to hard. He said the punishment fit the crime, but I didn't see any red marks on H! H almost seemed to feel empowered, like on a power trip. I said,"There is something wrong with you!" Of course he got defensive, said that he could discipline his son when needed and then started shooting his mouth off with stupid threats to me. I didn't fear my safety, H know better. I won't take it! But now I fear what his "discipline" is way overboard.

NTT,

What is up with this man? I've actually been meaning to ask you more about him. You've been focusing on his porn use, but something you mentioned awhile back has stuck with me -- that he often dismisses your opinions and feelings. That IMHO is a big red flag.

Now this??? Whether or not you think spanking is an effective form of discipline, I agree that he went overboard in this instance. The idea that he apparently struck-out in anger and seemed to take pleasure in it is very troublesome. How does he normally treat your son? Is this an isolated incident? Could it be related to the pressure he's feeling from the tension between the two of you? Still no excuse, in my opnion, just wondering.

I don't know, NTT. I know this forum is dedicated to saving marriages. I know a lot of people around here believe there are only a couple of justifiable reasons to split (such as an affair). But back when I was trying to decide whether to talk to my husband about a possible split, and agonizing over what that would do to our children, I decided our girls would be better off in the long run if I took a stand and kicked my husband out than if I continued to live in a situation where he treated us all as though we were "burdens -- getting in his way" all the time. I'm lucky. He doesn't act that way any more.

I want to write more... but I'm at work and need to go... I'll try to check in later.

I'll be thinking of you.

-SC

I don't know what was up last night. I don't even know why he told me, not that I wouldn't want to know. I guess he really did feel justified in spanking him. Now I really don't know what to do. I don't even care now if he does the EN questionaire, I think counseling may be th only way to go.

Thanks for checking in, I'll be on line off and on all day trying to sort out my thoughts.

Quick comment NTT- do you find you are on your computer often? It can at times find you compeating for attention between it and real-life duties. The PC is a wonderful tool, but it's also inherently very antisocial. In my relationship, it became a wedge.

NTT,

I'm sorry about the spanking incident. That's hard! I was the perpetrator in the spanking incident in our house. I was angry at my son's behavior, the spanking seemed to give me some control back. I fortunately was able to come to my senses and see that it was my problem.

Now about your husband. Is he angry a lot? Is he on the computer a lot? Mine was/is. The weirdest things made him angry. Mine punched & kicked holes in the walls, called me names and drove erratically when angry.

Now, you have been focusing on the porn like SC said. It's an easy thing to focus on. But, if he is displaying any of the other abuse symptoms/signs, then his problem is deeper than the porn. He needs help to get the anger under control.

Please, please take a look at www.CompassionPower.com. I think this man's techniques may save my marriage. My H is an angry man, true, but I also have anger issues.

I noticed that people tend to be attracted to people that are at the same level of hurt. Do you have issues with anger? Or maybe depression?

I don't in any way think that this is any of your doing. He is responsible for his own actions. Just that, well, you're here and he's not, so I'm talking to you.

Ah. I'm afraid I may be stepping on toes, so I'm going to stop. If I can help in any way, please let me know.

Endless-No, I limit my time on the computer to certain times of the day that do not interfere with family time. Last night I was on because I simply didn't want to be around him. I was angry and knew that I wouldn't communicate properly. As for duties, I wonder what your implying and it may be nothing. Are you actually asking why I wasn't the one changing the diaper? We own a horse boarding facility and I was out doing the night chores, WORKING!! I wasn't playing on the computer. Sorry if I am reading more into your question than you meant.

SLA-No, your not stepping on toes, I'm here for opinions, whether I want to hear them or not. I don't have anger problems but I will stand up if I feel threatened. I didn't feel threatened, but I didn't like how he had handled the sitch. H is hardly ever on teh computer, he's addicted to TV. As for depression, I have never been treated for depression but there have been tough times in my life. Right now is one of them. I don't feel like hurting myself or anyone else, I just feel tired alot and don't have the motivation to do the things that I used to enjoy. I have found exercise to be a great relief, but I feel off the wagon about a month ago and really need to get going on that again. It helped immensely when I first found the videos back in August.

I feel like what your name inmplies, lost. Kind of foggy.

NTT,

"foggy... lost... tired..." I'm no expert, but it sounds like mild depression to me. Exercise is a great idea.

Again, it seems like there's a lot more going on here than the porn. Will you husband do MC?

--SC

I'll just post a quick reply since I don't want to the threadjack, but I think I do need to contemplate that. I really have no clue. Thus far he has gotten anger, the cold shoulder, and tears and none of them have swayed him, just made him appease me as best he could and go back to doing what he wanted. Still waiting to see how well the calm, respectful, heart-to-heart talk we had last time works out. I have misgivings about it since only a day or two after the talk he not only looked again but after having agreed to tell me if he did look again, he didn't say a word to me about it until he could tell that I was upset about something. Haven't caught him since then and that was a few months ago, but I've gone months before catching him in the past as well. Wow, this is a lot longer than I intended, maybe I need my own thread to ramble in, lol.

schnln-please feel free to stay, as the original poster, I invite, no, beg you to join us. This is supportive. More heads are better than one, that's why I"m here.

H has called a few times today, acts as if nothing is wrong, God, that drives me insane. Luckily, I have a meeting to attend tonight, so I won't have to deal with him much.

SC- Iwould like to got to MC, and even get three paid sessions through my employer, I'm just not sure if he'd put in the effort. It seems like a waste if he won't participate. I'm sure he'd go, but it would just be to shut me up.

Thank you all, it helps immensely to have people who understand to talk to.

Well, by duties, I just meant everyday chores both partners should be sharing in, together. Anyway, maybe instead of spending that time away from him on the PC, let him know how serious you are about things.

My wife had a cyber-EA before I realised how serious she was about me meeting her needs. I wished she spent the time she spent on the computer, telling me again how she needed me to change. I took her for granted, and was angry at her myself, so no other warnings ever came. I found out the hard way.

Anyway, not all is doom and gloom, I think it's helped my relationship out plenty, but it's an uphill battle for sure. I wouldn't internalize, if there's a problem, you need to do something about it before something gives...

NTT,
I'm going on vacation for a week and my not be able to check-in much. But I'll be thinking about you, and sending good vibes your way. Hang in there, and give that little boy of yours an extra hug and kiss from me!
-SC

Have a good vacation SC. I give him lots of hugs and kisses, I'll add a few more from you!

Endless- I have told him over and over again how I feel, just to have my feelings pushed aside. I'm the one who has the problem and cannot seem to let it go, he's "happy". That is my H's thought process. I am internalizing because it hurts far less to just deal with things alone than to be told that my feelings don't matter, that they are my problem. I'd rather be alone than be called "retarted" (last nights verbal abuse). I can't take much more of him.

Unfortunately, some people don't see a problem until "something gives".

Boy does that sound familiar. My H always seems to think that if he ignores something then it will go away. And if I don't ignore it with him, then I am "out to get him."

NTT, his porn use is not the problem. It's just a symptom.

I can't remember if you've answered me (and I couldn't find it by just browsing the posts), what are you willing to do in order to get to the truth? It sounds to me like your H is waiting for the storm to calm down, 'til you look like you can live with what's happening, then will shut off even further.

Do you remember what Damage said? He had no intention of stopping, but told his wife he would. He did not take the problem seriously. I don't understand why, but men seem to have such a hard time taking us seriously. It could be because we don't hold them responsible. When push comes to shove, what we women seem to do is yell, holler and rant, but it's usually all empty threats. Your H can sense this. You'll have to MAKE him pay attention.

I don't know what it will be in your case. Again, I strongly advise you to get professional help for this. My coach is wonderful. This board is great and all for support, but when it comes down to it, it's just our opinions. The professionals have seen a number of cases, seen what works, what doesn't and have usually taken many, many courses on this stuff.

Please. For the sake of your marriage, your child, and your sanity, talk to a professional. A pro-marriage professional. It can be expensive, but aren't you worth it? Don't wait years like me. I was told almost 1 1/2 years ago I would have to go to Plan B. I couldn't do it. Then all of a sudden, I had to. It's not easy, but I wish I'd done it sooner. 1 1/2 years lost! 1 1/2 years of LBing on both sides. All those love deposits lost.

It's hard to face it all, but we're here for you.

My heart sinks reading this schnln. It sounds like he also is not taking your hurt seriously. I hate the attitude of society towards porn. It's viewed as normal, healthy and pretty darn admirable. It seems to be accepted as some sort of right of passage among the male population.

It makes me almost physically sick to see media coverage on the PlayBoy Mansion. It's astounding what we have let into our idea of what normal is.

Anyway, if your husband snuck porn after "understanding" where you're coming from, then he is still sneaking it. Maybe not a lot, but he is doing it. And it will snowball. Can you imagine the guilt he must be feeling? He has to justify it somehow, so you will become the target (if you haven't already) of why he should be able to watch/look at it. He's in a porn fog.

My brother told me after this my situation came to light that I really needed to think about me. That was hard. I wanted to tell the world what a scum my H was and to focus all of my ills on him. But, I started to think about it all. This is MY life. What am I willing to do in order to trust him again? I can't wait for my H to figure it out. I need to tell him what he has to do in order for me to feel safe and secure. If he isn't willing to do that, then he isn't serious about our relationship. It's hard to face that. I'd rather stick it out, be miserable and blame his porn use than deal with that unpleasant possibility.

Take some time to write it out. Talk to a professional. If you want to talk to my coach, feel free to e-mail me at [email]NanciFaith@gmail.com.[/email] I'll gladly pass along her info.

It's galling to me that I can't fix this on my own. But, I've wasted way too many years trying to. It's my H's problem, but he isn't willing to face it. So I've got to make him face it - or let him deal with the fall out on his own.

I hope this makes sense. I'm not as eloquent as I want to be. I'm never certain I'm articulating what I mean.

Anyway, be strong. We're here for you.

"Endless- I have told him over and over again how I feel, just to have my feelings pushed aside. I'm the one who has the problem and cannot seem to let it go, he's "happy". That is my H's thought process. I am internalizing because it hurts far less to just deal with things alone than to be told that my feelings don't matter, that they are my problem. I'd rather be alone than be called "retarted" (last nights verbal abuse). I can't take much more of him."

I blew my wife off, I wish I didn't now. That's all I can say. You need to give your hubby a wake-up call. SLA mentions that it's a symptom, not the disease, she's right I think.

I do agree, the porn is just one of many issue and instances where my feelings and opinions have been swept aside. I guess it was just the final straw.

I had hoped that he would take a look at this site and see how not validating a spouses feelings can make good people do not good things (EA, PA, etc.) I wanted us to do the EN questionaires and really see what we each need. I gave it to him over a week ago and he said that he could have it done by today. Mine is done, was done a few weeks ago. His hasn't been touched. I'm so frustrated at his lack of trying that I don't feel like trying anymore either. I said this to him last night, after he called me retarted, and I left the room and slept on the couch. I didn't throw any names at him, but I was so angry and hurt that I had to leave.

I'm not sure what I can do to give him a wake up call. Neither one of us can afford to seperate, we just started up a new business. I'm really kind of stuck.

SoLostagain- I'm not certain if he is looking or not, I haven't caught him yet. But he doesn't have much time to look right now. There are few times during the day for him to sneak it right now, but I'm concerned for when his new work hours start and he'll be home during the day while I am in class or at work. He'll have plenty of time to look then, and with going back to school and working full time he'll have plenty of stress he'll be looking to relieve. I gave him some pictures of me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> to try and distract him from looking at the other women, which he claims to enjoy, but I wonder if reality can ever be preferable to fantasy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I also doubt his attitude about truly understanding and caring about how I feel. He claimed he did and said he'd give it up as he loved me more than it, but like I said he looked again shortly after saying it. And the other night he seemed to delight in/ be amused at making me think he was hiding some again. I came in from the bathroom and he was putting something in his drawer, I teasingly asked him if he was hiding things and he started acting suspicious. I hadn't really thought he was hiding anything, just that he was putting laundry away, but he gave himself away. I asked him directly if he was hiding a suprise or present and I would have dropped things if he had said yes, but instead he led me to believe it was porn he was hiding by what he was saying. It turned out to be presents and I was sad to have the suprise spoiled, but then he commented in a mocking/laughing type voice about how I had thought it was porn. I did't appreciate that or find it very funny, though I felt worse about spoiling his suprise for me then I did about his attitude. I hate not trusting him even if he has proved on several occasions to be untrustworthy where porn is concerned.
He hasn't really brought any complaints to me about not being allowed to watch porn, at least not since a year or two ago. When I'm upset about porn, if we end up arguing about it he usually walks right out and disappears for awhile. That is his answer for arguments, walk out in the middle of them and then come back and pretend nothing is wrong. Leaving me upset and then without any type of resolution to the problem. I really don't know what kind of consequence I could give him. I can't kick him out, we live with his parents. I can't leave, I'm a full time student with a baby and a job that I'm lucky to make $70 every 2 weeks at. I can't support myself or my baby on that. I live three hours away from my closest family, so I can't go to them because I can't commute three hours to school everyday. And I really don't want to leave him, I love him a great deal. But if he can't leave porn behind then resentment will surely start to build and things won't be so rosy for us someday. *sigh* I don't know what to do or think anymore. I'll save the stress for when I find something amiss I suppose.

Tell me if i was wrong to say this. H had not done EN questionaire as he had said he would. I asked why he decided not to fill it out. He said that he would get to it. I said that when he kills a deer, that he takes care of it right away. He said he had to or it would spoil. I said, "Well, I hate to tell you but our marriage is spoiling." I walked away, no name calling , no threats.

He did the questionaire shortly after. I thanked him and told him that he could be the one to decide when we would exchange them and discuss them. He said Sunday.

Pray/think of us, that this is a step in the right direction. If we can BOTH commit to meeting each others most important ENs, maybe our M can be saved, and even improved.

schnln- been there, done that. This is the third time I've discovered my H lying to me about porn. I feel that through this thread I've come to realize that porn is really a sign, not the problem. The fact that you have requested that he stop, he says he will, and then doesn't follow through shows his lack of respect or realization of how seriously you are affected by it. So, you need to address the respect issue. Does he respect you in every other aspect of your lives?

Therein lies his "power" over you to do as HE wants.

YOU are "afraid" and you are "worried" about all that could be lost. He is not. Those who are not afraid of death make the deadliest of fighters. Those who are afraid of "loss" can be manipulated and dominated. Masters and Slaves...Lords and Vassels....Faithful and Unfaithful....

Marriage is about sharing, giving up "rights" if they hurt our spouse, of "completing not competing" with our spouse.

HE can CHOOSE to put all that you own at risk. YOU can CHOOSE to say "no" and accept the short-term consequences of HIS choice to be "selfish," OR you can choose to clearly estblish your BOUNDARIES, including the usage of Porn, AND be ready to enforce the consequences of his willful choice to violate your Boundaries.

HIS choice will then be to RESPECT your boundaries or acknowledge that you are responding to HIS choices and NOT tolerating his lack of love and respect for you.

In short, you CAN love someone, but also choose not to live with them when they will NOT "give up selfishness" for the good of the marriage.

God bless.

Well, we've decided to exchange and discuss the EN questionaires tonight. I'm actually kind of excited. I think it may be quite enlightening. I hope it gets us somewhere.

I hope everyone is having a nice weekend.

We did the questionaires. We ended up arguing. Basically he's happy, I'm not. He is fine with status quo, I'm not. It was not enlightening, and just reaffirmed that he is only concerned with meeting his needs. His #1 was Honesty!!! But his comment was "Don't open my mail and don't go through my stuff. So its not honesty he values, its privacy and secrecy. I'm really still not sure where we are. <<sigh>>

U r NOT in recovery. He is sitting on the fence and cake eating. He gets t/d what he wants and u have to live with it.... or do you?

L.

Were you arguing because he's happy and you're not? If so, is it possible that you both misunderstood the nature of the assignment?

The whole purpose of the EN questionaire is to find out what makes you each happy because the expectation is that those things might be very different things. and, therefore, it's probably not that uncommon to find one spouse that is reasonably content while the other spouse is not.

Are you disappointed that he's happy? Does that really have to mean that he's not interested in meeting your needs (which is a DJ, by the way) or can it just mean that different things make him happy and your relationship is full of those things right now. Your next step is negotiating for more of the things that make YOU happy - not making him unhappy first!!!


Well, I suggest that you're at the stage where you two negotiate a common vision. But, you have to leave the LB's behind ... and that means the DJ's. It's a DJ to re-write what he says he values and denigrate it. You don't have to AGREE to it.. you don't even have to DO what he asks (not open his mail, etc) but expressing your disdain for his words is going to put him on the defensive and make him not want to negotiate with you. The key is to approach negotiations respectfully and as equal partners that both have something to give and something to get.

Now, maybe you're concerned that he won't treat your requests respectfully - I don't know if he will or he won't. Either way, don't give yourself permission to LB and be disrespectful or judgemental towards him. Get a referree (MC) if you need to.

I wish you the best of luck,

Mys

Your right, but please understand, I haven't said these things to him. I know I'm on the defensive right now. i want us both to be happy, but I feel like I'm always the one giving and not usually on the receiving end. That is why I asked him to do the questionaire with me. From the results it seems that I'm doing a good job, he's happy in most area's with minimal requests, which he worded more as demands. I on the other hand am not happy in many areas and I didn't get the feeling that he is going to respect my requests.

I think the EN questionaire validates your feelings - obviously you aren't on the receiving end of a lot of your EN's. I hesitate to say that means that he's not giving to you - it might just be that he's fallen into the common trap of giving you what he'd like to receive or what he THINKS you want as opposed to the things that really meet your EN's. And, that's why the questionaire is so important!

You never did say what you argued about - I had the impression that it was because you weren't happy and he is happy. If it is that, I'm just trying to point out the futility of that type of argument because, once again, your goal isn't to make him unhappy, it's to add enough things to your relationship so that you feel you are getting as much as you are giving! So, arguing about who's happy and whether or not you should be happy, might be happy, would be happy in an ideal world or <whatever> is just a way of avoiding the discussion of what to do about the fact that you AREN'T happy.

Why do you think your H won't honor your requests? What barriers do you think will arise? Remember, it's not about you just handing him a list and him acquiescing to your requests - it's about you and him NEGOTIATING ways that he can meet your needs that still allow him to be happy and yet fill your needs in a way that makes you happy.

Mys

Oh yes, he is a very sweet, loving, and affectionate person. Everyone in my family always comments on how good he is to me, how he is such a good husband and father. He always talks to me before making any important decisions and listens to what I have to say before making a final decision. He opens doors for me and helps me in and out of the car. Thats part of what makes this porn situation so frustrating, it seems so out of character for him.

Hi NTT & schnln,

This probably won't be too long since I am in dire need of ironing clothes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Anyways, I've been thinking about both of you this weekend. Congratulations on exchanging ENs, NTT. It's discouraging to believe that since he is happy, he maybe doesn't want to change anything.

Well, one thing that seems to be a top priority for both of you is regaining trust. Neither one of you is in a position to do a Plan B. So that's out.

Have you thought about putting keyloggers on all computers both you & Hs have access to? I'm pretty sure there are stealth modes. That way schnln, you'll be able to tell if he's been lying. That will be a hard pill to swallow, but it would be better to know.

Are either one of your Hs willing to go to MC - with the idea in mind that the porn issue would be the first discussed? If MC is too expensive, are either one willing to go to a pastor/priest/elder/deacon?

There is also the option of on-line accountability. I found a website: www.xxxchurch.com (so named because it grabs attention) that offers this. It sounds very interesting. The basic gist is that the individual sign up, all sites looked at are put in a log, at the end of the month sent to a designated accountability partner. If the individual requests termination of the service, then a notification of that termination is sent to the accountability partner. I believe that when my H and I reconcile, I will ask him to participate in this program for at least a year.

These things may sound outlandish to your Hs, but they've got to start building up trust again. And unfortunately, since they've lost it a number of times in both your cases, they're going to have to take extreme measures.

Oh, I agree with ForeverHers. Don't let fear dominate your relationship. The fear of the loss of my marriage made me endure things/situations I shouldn't have, made me mute when I should have talked, made me passive when I should have been aggressive. That fear is a big thing I need to work on.

Good luck to both of ya.

We argued over various reasons, all of which boiled down to me feeling unheard. I asked him to turn off the TV, He said,"I'm listening". TV stayed on. Many things he kept saying just sounded very belittling to what I had written. There wasn't just one thing that we argued about. It wasn't a full blown fight.

I have mentioned counselling before, he said he would but he wasn't very enthusiastic about it.

I would like for us to sit down, TV OFF, and go through the questionaire again, but I'm not sure that he will do it.

All I know is that I'm feeling more and more detached from him and I'm getting really frustrated.

Have u tried 'reverse psychology'?

L.

Why didn't you turn off the TV instead of asking him to do it? If it were me, I'd end the conversation until the TV is off. Set a boundary: I won't discuss our relationship with you until I have your full attention (no TV or other distractions).

I suspect that you're going to say that your H will be happier with that since he doesn't want to discuss the relationship and you do BUT, in addition to that boundary would be to tell him respectfully but often how unhappy you are and how much you need to talk about the relationship without distractions - perhaps it's time to 'go on strike' a little bit and stop meeting his needs until he's willing to stop and talk to you.

This is a time when persistence pays.



Heh. I'm sure. As the survey has said, he's pretty comfortable with your relationship. Changing it probably appears to be a lot of work to him and he's not feeling very reassured that you're willing to negotiate to find ways he can meet your needs that aren't going to make him unhappy. Most people approach change with fear - especially if something is going well for them. I suspect his reluctance has less to do with him not loving or valuing you verses his worry that changing the relationship will make it unliveable for HIM. You can allieviate some of that with the right approach but, in general, it's a pretty natural human response.


Hey! You're part of this process too. The POJA says Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of BOTH spouses. You're one of the spouses, you know. If you don't think you can discuss this with the TV on, then insist that you WON'T discuss it with the TV on. He can't make you.

Do you feel you have very little power in this relationship? If so, can you express why you feel that way?



How are you communicating your frustration and detatchment to him?

Mys

"Heh. I'm sure. As the survey has said, he's pretty comfortable with your relationship. Changing it probably appears to be a lot of work to him and he's not feeling very reassured that you're willing to negotiate to find ways he can meet your needs that aren't going to make him unhappy. Most people approach change with fear - especially if something is going well for them. I suspect his reluctance has less to do with him not loving or valuing you verses his worry that changing the relationship will make it unliveable for HIM. You can allieviate some of that with the right approach but, in general, it's a pretty natural human response."

I hadn't really thought about it that way. Excellent point.

Last night went much better. I think he had thought through some things. I was a little defensive at first because I was still hanging on to some resentment from the night before, but, as I have learned through this wonderful site, my resentment is mine to control. So I pushed it down and allowed him to try. He did, but I wonder if it is a bandaid or a true attempt to improve things. I guess it could be both and if he sees a happier wife maybe they can become permanent. That'll be my goal, to make sure he feels a difference when he tries.

I don't feel powerless, but I'm just getting tired of standing up for myself and getting shot down and feeling unloved. I've been withdrawing away fom him, since discussion was usually futile. That was my way of showing my frustation without getting into verbal LB's.

Well, hopefully, things will continue to go well. I was thinking of making a sheet for each of us to make that would list the requests that would fill our EN's for each week/day so we could check them off as they are meet. Maybe that way we don't fall back into the rut and would become habit. I don't know, just a though.

Things are still better than they were, but last night I felt as if things were shifting back to the old rut. I sort of had an AO, but I kept it somewhat supressed. Do I keep requesting the things I need or is that LBing? I guess it's all in the asking. I need to keep ASKING, and make sure I'm not demanding, right?
I did say at one point that if he wanted me to drop and forgive the past lies that he needed to show me change. I think this statement actually got through to him. A little while later he asked if we were done with our little "tussle" and I said that I would drop it as long as he didn't fall back into the rut. I got alot of hugs after that. And I dropped my attitude.
I need suggestions on how to keep the progress going without LBing.

Have you guys actually filled out the EN and LB questionaires? They will help GREATLY in pinpointing/exposing your weak points in your relationship. As well, it may give provide a hint to him that you seriously think something is amiss with your relationship, while still saving face with your husband relating to his stance on marriage counselling. If you've started the hugs and make-up process, ride with it, and show him you need more done yet before things get better.

One thing I have trouble with regarding the EN and LB tests. I really feel they are only truly effective if used in worst-case scenarios. People will tend to "minimize" their feelings in any situation but in the worst-case. Good luck.

needtotalk - Habits don't "die," they have to be stopped by willpower and replaced with something positive to fill the void. Without the replacement, the "doing something different" when faced with same temptations or stressors, and they'll revert to "habit" every time. It genereally takes a solid 30 days of DAILY change to the new behavior ingrain a new habit.

It's work, not wishing, that makes it happen.

I learned something very interesting about him by having him do the EN ?aire, He could care less if I do housework. Yahoo!! I now know not to expect any praise or gratitude when I clean, now I clean because I want a tidy house. At least I won't be sad if he doesn't even recognize the fact that I cleaned, and I'm ok with that.

I'm still perplexed at how H&O is his #1!! You would think that someone who values that wouldn't LIE!!! Hmmmmmm.