My heart sinks reading this schnln. It sounds like he also is not taking your hurt seriously. I hate the attitude of society towards porn. It's viewed as normal, healthy and pretty darn admirable. It seems to be accepted as some sort of right of passage among the male population.

It makes me almost physically sick to see media coverage on the PlayBoy Mansion. It's astounding what we have let into our idea of what normal is.

Anyway, if your husband snuck porn after "understanding" where you're coming from, then he is still sneaking it. Maybe not a lot, but he is doing it. And it will snowball. Can you imagine the guilt he must be feeling? He has to justify it somehow, so you will become the target (if you haven't already) of why he should be able to watch/look at it. He's in a porn fog.

My brother told me after this my situation came to light that I really needed to think about me. That was hard. I wanted to tell the world what a scum my H was and to focus all of my ills on him. But, I started to think about it all. This is MY life. What am I willing to do in order to trust him again? I can't wait for my H to figure it out. I need to tell him what he has to do in order for me to feel safe and secure. If he isn't willing to do that, then he isn't serious about our relationship. It's hard to face that. I'd rather stick it out, be miserable and blame his porn use than deal with that unpleasant possibility.

Take some time to write it out. Talk to a professional. If you want to talk to my coach, feel free to e-mail me at [email]NanciFaith@gmail.com.[/email] I'll gladly pass along her info.

It's galling to me that I can't fix this on my own. But, I've wasted way too many years trying to. It's my H's problem, but he isn't willing to face it. So I've got to make him face it - or let him deal with the fall out on his own.

I hope this makes sense. I'm not as eloquent as I want to be. I'm never certain I'm articulating what I mean.

Anyway, be strong. We're here for you.

"Endless- I have told him over and over again how I feel, just to have my feelings pushed aside. I'm the one who has the problem and cannot seem to let it go, he's "happy". That is my H's thought process. I am internalizing because it hurts far less to just deal with things alone than to be told that my feelings don't matter, that they are my problem. I'd rather be alone than be called "retarted" (last nights verbal abuse). I can't take much more of him."

I blew my wife off, I wish I didn't now. That's all I can say. You need to give your hubby a wake-up call. SLA mentions that it's a symptom, not the disease, she's right I think.

I do agree, the porn is just one of many issue and instances where my feelings and opinions have been swept aside. I guess it was just the final straw.

I had hoped that he would take a look at this site and see how not validating a spouses feelings can make good people do not good things (EA, PA, etc.) I wanted us to do the EN questionaires and really see what we each need. I gave it to him over a week ago and he said that he could have it done by today. Mine is done, was done a few weeks ago. His hasn't been touched. I'm so frustrated at his lack of trying that I don't feel like trying anymore either. I said this to him last night, after he called me retarted, and I left the room and slept on the couch. I didn't throw any names at him, but I was so angry and hurt that I had to leave.

I'm not sure what I can do to give him a wake up call. Neither one of us can afford to seperate, we just started up a new business. I'm really kind of stuck.

SoLostagain- I'm not certain if he is looking or not, I haven't caught him yet. But he doesn't have much time to look right now. There are few times during the day for him to sneak it right now, but I'm concerned for when his new work hours start and he'll be home during the day while I am in class or at work. He'll have plenty of time to look then, and with going back to school and working full time he'll have plenty of stress he'll be looking to relieve. I gave him some pictures of me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> to try and distract him from looking at the other women, which he claims to enjoy, but I wonder if reality can ever be preferable to fantasy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I also doubt his attitude about truly understanding and caring about how I feel. He claimed he did and said he'd give it up as he loved me more than it, but like I said he looked again shortly after saying it. And the other night he seemed to delight in/ be amused at making me think he was hiding some again. I came in from the bathroom and he was putting something in his drawer, I teasingly asked him if he was hiding things and he started acting suspicious. I hadn't really thought he was hiding anything, just that he was putting laundry away, but he gave himself away. I asked him directly if he was hiding a suprise or present and I would have dropped things if he had said yes, but instead he led me to believe it was porn he was hiding by what he was saying. It turned out to be presents and I was sad to have the suprise spoiled, but then he commented in a mocking/laughing type voice about how I had thought it was porn. I did't appreciate that or find it very funny, though I felt worse about spoiling his suprise for me then I did about his attitude. I hate not trusting him even if he has proved on several occasions to be untrustworthy where porn is concerned.
He hasn't really brought any complaints to me about not being allowed to watch porn, at least not since a year or two ago. When I'm upset about porn, if we end up arguing about it he usually walks right out and disappears for awhile. That is his answer for arguments, walk out in the middle of them and then come back and pretend nothing is wrong. Leaving me upset and then without any type of resolution to the problem. I really don't know what kind of consequence I could give him. I can't kick him out, we live with his parents. I can't leave, I'm a full time student with a baby and a job that I'm lucky to make $70 every 2 weeks at. I can't support myself or my baby on that. I live three hours away from my closest family, so I can't go to them because I can't commute three hours to school everyday. And I really don't want to leave him, I love him a great deal. But if he can't leave porn behind then resentment will surely start to build and things won't be so rosy for us someday. *sigh* I don't know what to do or think anymore. I'll save the stress for when I find something amiss I suppose.

Tell me if i was wrong to say this. H had not done EN questionaire as he had said he would. I asked why he decided not to fill it out. He said that he would get to it. I said that when he kills a deer, that he takes care of it right away. He said he had to or it would spoil. I said, "Well, I hate to tell you but our marriage is spoiling." I walked away, no name calling , no threats.

He did the questionaire shortly after. I thanked him and told him that he could be the one to decide when we would exchange them and discuss them. He said Sunday.

Pray/think of us, that this is a step in the right direction. If we can BOTH commit to meeting each others most important ENs, maybe our M can be saved, and even improved.

schnln- been there, done that. This is the third time I've discovered my H lying to me about porn. I feel that through this thread I've come to realize that porn is really a sign, not the problem. The fact that you have requested that he stop, he says he will, and then doesn't follow through shows his lack of respect or realization of how seriously you are affected by it. So, you need to address the respect issue. Does he respect you in every other aspect of your lives?

Therein lies his "power" over you to do as HE wants.

YOU are "afraid" and you are "worried" about all that could be lost. He is not. Those who are not afraid of death make the deadliest of fighters. Those who are afraid of "loss" can be manipulated and dominated. Masters and Slaves...Lords and Vassels....Faithful and Unfaithful....

Marriage is about sharing, giving up "rights" if they hurt our spouse, of "completing not competing" with our spouse.

HE can CHOOSE to put all that you own at risk. YOU can CHOOSE to say "no" and accept the short-term consequences of HIS choice to be "selfish," OR you can choose to clearly estblish your BOUNDARIES, including the usage of Porn, AND be ready to enforce the consequences of his willful choice to violate your Boundaries.

HIS choice will then be to RESPECT your boundaries or acknowledge that you are responding to HIS choices and NOT tolerating his lack of love and respect for you.

In short, you CAN love someone, but also choose not to live with them when they will NOT "give up selfishness" for the good of the marriage.

God bless.

Well, we've decided to exchange and discuss the EN questionaires tonight. I'm actually kind of excited. I think it may be quite enlightening. I hope it gets us somewhere.

I hope everyone is having a nice weekend.

We did the questionaires. We ended up arguing. Basically he's happy, I'm not. He is fine with status quo, I'm not. It was not enlightening, and just reaffirmed that he is only concerned with meeting his needs. His #1 was Honesty!!! But his comment was "Don't open my mail and don't go through my stuff. So its not honesty he values, its privacy and secrecy. I'm really still not sure where we are. <<sigh>>

U r NOT in recovery. He is sitting on the fence and cake eating. He gets t/d what he wants and u have to live with it.... or do you?

L.

Were you arguing because he's happy and you're not? If so, is it possible that you both misunderstood the nature of the assignment?

The whole purpose of the EN questionaire is to find out what makes you each happy because the expectation is that those things might be very different things. and, therefore, it's probably not that uncommon to find one spouse that is reasonably content while the other spouse is not.

Are you disappointed that he's happy? Does that really have to mean that he's not interested in meeting your needs (which is a DJ, by the way) or can it just mean that different things make him happy and your relationship is full of those things right now. Your next step is negotiating for more of the things that make YOU happy - not making him unhappy first!!!


Well, I suggest that you're at the stage where you two negotiate a common vision. But, you have to leave the LB's behind ... and that means the DJ's. It's a DJ to re-write what he says he values and denigrate it. You don't have to AGREE to it.. you don't even have to DO what he asks (not open his mail, etc) but expressing your disdain for his words is going to put him on the defensive and make him not want to negotiate with you. The key is to approach negotiations respectfully and as equal partners that both have something to give and something to get.

Now, maybe you're concerned that he won't treat your requests respectfully - I don't know if he will or he won't. Either way, don't give yourself permission to LB and be disrespectful or judgemental towards him. Get a referree (MC) if you need to.

I wish you the best of luck,

Mys

Your right, but please understand, I haven't said these things to him. I know I'm on the defensive right now. i want us both to be happy, but I feel like I'm always the one giving and not usually on the receiving end. That is why I asked him to do the questionaire with me. From the results it seems that I'm doing a good job, he's happy in most area's with minimal requests, which he worded more as demands. I on the other hand am not happy in many areas and I didn't get the feeling that he is going to respect my requests.

I think the EN questionaire validates your feelings - obviously you aren't on the receiving end of a lot of your EN's. I hesitate to say that means that he's not giving to you - it might just be that he's fallen into the common trap of giving you what he'd like to receive or what he THINKS you want as opposed to the things that really meet your EN's. And, that's why the questionaire is so important!

You never did say what you argued about - I had the impression that it was because you weren't happy and he is happy. If it is that, I'm just trying to point out the futility of that type of argument because, once again, your goal isn't to make him unhappy, it's to add enough things to your relationship so that you feel you are getting as much as you are giving! So, arguing about who's happy and whether or not you should be happy, might be happy, would be happy in an ideal world or <whatever> is just a way of avoiding the discussion of what to do about the fact that you AREN'T happy.

Why do you think your H won't honor your requests? What barriers do you think will arise? Remember, it's not about you just handing him a list and him acquiescing to your requests - it's about you and him NEGOTIATING ways that he can meet your needs that still allow him to be happy and yet fill your needs in a way that makes you happy.

Mys

Oh yes, he is a very sweet, loving, and affectionate person. Everyone in my family always comments on how good he is to me, how he is such a good husband and father. He always talks to me before making any important decisions and listens to what I have to say before making a final decision. He opens doors for me and helps me in and out of the car. Thats part of what makes this porn situation so frustrating, it seems so out of character for him.

Hi NTT & schnln,

This probably won't be too long since I am in dire need of ironing clothes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Anyways, I've been thinking about both of you this weekend. Congratulations on exchanging ENs, NTT. It's discouraging to believe that since he is happy, he maybe doesn't want to change anything.

Well, one thing that seems to be a top priority for both of you is regaining trust. Neither one of you is in a position to do a Plan B. So that's out.

Have you thought about putting keyloggers on all computers both you & Hs have access to? I'm pretty sure there are stealth modes. That way schnln, you'll be able to tell if he's been lying. That will be a hard pill to swallow, but it would be better to know.

Are either one of your Hs willing to go to MC - with the idea in mind that the porn issue would be the first discussed? If MC is too expensive, are either one willing to go to a pastor/priest/elder/deacon?

There is also the option of on-line accountability. I found a website: www.xxxchurch.com (so named because it grabs attention) that offers this. It sounds very interesting. The basic gist is that the individual sign up, all sites looked at are put in a log, at the end of the month sent to a designated accountability partner. If the individual requests termination of the service, then a notification of that termination is sent to the accountability partner. I believe that when my H and I reconcile, I will ask him to participate in this program for at least a year.

These things may sound outlandish to your Hs, but they've got to start building up trust again. And unfortunately, since they've lost it a number of times in both your cases, they're going to have to take extreme measures.

Oh, I agree with ForeverHers. Don't let fear dominate your relationship. The fear of the loss of my marriage made me endure things/situations I shouldn't have, made me mute when I should have talked, made me passive when I should have been aggressive. That fear is a big thing I need to work on.

Good luck to both of ya.

We argued over various reasons, all of which boiled down to me feeling unheard. I asked him to turn off the TV, He said,"I'm listening". TV stayed on. Many things he kept saying just sounded very belittling to what I had written. There wasn't just one thing that we argued about. It wasn't a full blown fight.

I have mentioned counselling before, he said he would but he wasn't very enthusiastic about it.

I would like for us to sit down, TV OFF, and go through the questionaire again, but I'm not sure that he will do it.

All I know is that I'm feeling more and more detached from him and I'm getting really frustrated.

Have u tried 'reverse psychology'?

L.

Why didn't you turn off the TV instead of asking him to do it? If it were me, I'd end the conversation until the TV is off. Set a boundary: I won't discuss our relationship with you until I have your full attention (no TV or other distractions).

I suspect that you're going to say that your H will be happier with that since he doesn't want to discuss the relationship and you do BUT, in addition to that boundary would be to tell him respectfully but often how unhappy you are and how much you need to talk about the relationship without distractions - perhaps it's time to 'go on strike' a little bit and stop meeting his needs until he's willing to stop and talk to you.

This is a time when persistence pays.



Heh. I'm sure. As the survey has said, he's pretty comfortable with your relationship. Changing it probably appears to be a lot of work to him and he's not feeling very reassured that you're willing to negotiate to find ways he can meet your needs that aren't going to make him unhappy. Most people approach change with fear - especially if something is going well for them. I suspect his reluctance has less to do with him not loving or valuing you verses his worry that changing the relationship will make it unliveable for HIM. You can allieviate some of that with the right approach but, in general, it's a pretty natural human response.


Hey! You're part of this process too. The POJA says Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of BOTH spouses. You're one of the spouses, you know. If you don't think you can discuss this with the TV on, then insist that you WON'T discuss it with the TV on. He can't make you.

Do you feel you have very little power in this relationship? If so, can you express why you feel that way?



How are you communicating your frustration and detatchment to him?

Mys

"Heh. I'm sure. As the survey has said, he's pretty comfortable with your relationship. Changing it probably appears to be a lot of work to him and he's not feeling very reassured that you're willing to negotiate to find ways he can meet your needs that aren't going to make him unhappy. Most people approach change with fear - especially if something is going well for them. I suspect his reluctance has less to do with him not loving or valuing you verses his worry that changing the relationship will make it unliveable for HIM. You can allieviate some of that with the right approach but, in general, it's a pretty natural human response."

I hadn't really thought about it that way. Excellent point.

Last night went much better. I think he had thought through some things. I was a little defensive at first because I was still hanging on to some resentment from the night before, but, as I have learned through this wonderful site, my resentment is mine to control. So I pushed it down and allowed him to try. He did, but I wonder if it is a bandaid or a true attempt to improve things. I guess it could be both and if he sees a happier wife maybe they can become permanent. That'll be my goal, to make sure he feels a difference when he tries.

I don't feel powerless, but I'm just getting tired of standing up for myself and getting shot down and feeling unloved. I've been withdrawing away fom him, since discussion was usually futile. That was my way of showing my frustation without getting into verbal LB's.

Well, hopefully, things will continue to go well. I was thinking of making a sheet for each of us to make that would list the requests that would fill our EN's for each week/day so we could check them off as they are meet. Maybe that way we don't fall back into the rut and would become habit. I don't know, just a though.

Things are still better than they were, but last night I felt as if things were shifting back to the old rut. I sort of had an AO, but I kept it somewhat supressed. Do I keep requesting the things I need or is that LBing? I guess it's all in the asking. I need to keep ASKING, and make sure I'm not demanding, right?
I did say at one point that if he wanted me to drop and forgive the past lies that he needed to show me change. I think this statement actually got through to him. A little while later he asked if we were done with our little "tussle" and I said that I would drop it as long as he didn't fall back into the rut. I got alot of hugs after that. And I dropped my attitude.
I need suggestions on how to keep the progress going without LBing.