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Good morning everyone. I'm up early because of a bad dream- H had porn again. Those of you out there that have H's that have given it up, how do you know that they are being truthful? How did they build your trust again? I want to trust him, but I'm afraid to. Even though I truly don't believe that he is addicted, I'm not sure he cares enough to respect my feelings. I wish he had never hid these stupid things from me! Help!

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(((((needtotalk)))))

No easy answer, but the "answer" is: Time and Consistancy.

There is NO substitute for "walking the talk." The weakness and failure has been proven, now the strength and commitment likewise needs to be proven.

"Blind Trust" is gone forever. You only get one chance at it and it is irreplaceable. In it's place you can build "earned trust" and "given trust." You can begin the "given trust" in small areas that you are comfortable with, but the "big areas" that shattered the former "Blind Trust" will need repentance (turning 180 degrees away from, forever, the cause of the offense) and consistancy and much time to EARN (prove that they are now worthy of the vulnerablity of your emotions that you "Risk" when you trust someone) that desired trust. YOU have to be able to believe in your heart that you can "predict" their behavior when you are "not around." Think of all the terms that "label" someone who is NOT being faithful, and you can see all the "things" that need to be left in the past because they "climb down off the pedestal of self entitlement" and humble themselves to be YOUR servant, not because they "must," but because they CHOOSE to do so because they love you and are feeling heartfelt sorry over the sin they formerly choose AGAINST you (and also usually against their own "concept" of who they 'really are').

God bless.

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NeedtoTalk,

I don't know your entire story but is he getting professional help for this? Is he obsessed with porn or is he just somewhat interested once in a while? Either way, if it is a problem for you, then it needs to be a problem for him. I know men that are obsessed with it and it is a big problem.

Forever is right - blind trust is gone for good. If he wants to be with you, he has to realize he needs to be accountable for what he does, and to meet your needs and vice-versa. That is what relationships are about.

Keith

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Hi NeedtoTalk,

I don't have any words of wisdom, just wanted to let you know I'm in the same boat. I have no idea if I can ever trust him again, don't really know if I want to. I do know one thing - he'll have to take a lie detector test to make me want to start trusting again......

I took a very drastic approach. I have been trying to improve my marriage since our honeymoon. That was a disaster, so I started in right away with therapy. I have been lurking here for 4 1/2 years, read all the Harley's books, he read all the Harley's books, talked at length about my need for openess and honesty, admitted to him that I was so lonely I wanted to have an affair, continued therapy with at least 4 marriage counsellors; then found out right after labor day this year that he has been lying to me about porn for at least 6 years. Probably more.

I asked him to leave as soon as I found out. Went straight into Plan B. I know a lot of people wouldn't agree with that, but there it is. He's been out of the house since Sept. 6th. I haven't spoken to him, the one time I saw him, it sent me into a terrible spiral of anger.

I am working closely with a coach, we have an e-mail intermediary. My coach assures me that he wants me back, but I don't believe it. He wants to be with the kids, no doubt, but me? Why in the world should I believe that after our history? He's said some horrible things to me. Then he tells me that he had to go look at porn in order to deal with his "explosive" feelings about us not getting along.

Supposedly he isn't an addict, but I don't know if I believe that either. Right now, my coach doesn't, so I'll wait and see. I don't know what I'm going to do.

His family is non-supportive I gather. They've not been the healthiest of people for me, so while I didn't expect support, it hurts that they haven't once bothered to find out how I'm doing after I sent the exposure letter. Shoot, they even told me (in reply to the letter - and the request that they talk to him about doing the right thing) they had no idea we were having marriage problems - after their 38 year old son came to live at their house. Hummmmm.....

Not many understand how badly this has affected me. Most people think looking at porn is no big deal.

Truthfully, I was thankful to see you post this a.m. I've been too shy to bring this to the board, so thank you.

I'm thinking of you.

Last edited by SoLostagain; 11/27/05 10:07 AM.
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I was very glad to have found this site. I thought maybe I was just crazy and insecure, but I've read so many threads now that I realize I'm not alone. I don't know how to bring quotes from other parts of the forum, but my original story is in the "Living Together..." in the "Mens Sexual Behaviors" thread. I also recently posted in this forum with our updated info. I'm glad to not be alone!

I'm thinking about you too

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Well, I can tell you that from my past, I never truly meant int when I said I would stop after W caught me. Sometimes I would mean it, but knew that I couldn't give it up. I would do what was necessary to "restore the peace" then try to hide it better. Finally, it got to where she said if she found it one more time she was divorcing me. To me, I knew I couldn't give it up, so I made sure none was in the house. I kept it at work. Then, one day, my work computer was found to have it. My wife still thinks that the only reason I sought treatment was because it was my job, not because she meant enough to me. But in truth, at that point, I knew I had to tell her I got caught at work, and in my mind I thought she would divorce me as she had promised to. I knew I could cooperate with work and get through it. I was in the Army and had already put in my papers to leave, was scheduled to leave in a few months, I knew the last thing they wanted was to spend time, money, and effort on a guy already leaving.

So I sought out counseling and tried to get to the root of my problem. I still don't understand why it affects me the way it does. The "urges" never go away. But I have learned to recognize the high price it has extracted from me, and can no longer rationalize it's use like I did in the past.


If your H has a problem with porn, and I don't like using the term "addiction", even though I have a problem I would rather use the term character flaw / weakness, whatever. I think using "addiction" cheapens that term. I think the problem men like me have is that we have never had to refuse instant gratification. We have been conditioned to give in to impulses. We didn't learn to accept delayed gratification, we didn't learn to mature out of selfishness and self centeredness.

If your H truly has a problem, you cannot trust him not to view porn. Over time, he will have to show you that his outlook on life, women, family, etc has changed, matured before you could attempt to accept that he is over the porn. Even then he will still have "urges". And you, his W, are not a good person for him to expect to turn to to discuss his weaknesses and urges in this respect. He really needs an accountability partner that he can call and discuss this with when he is having problems. Many churches or counseling centers have this. I don't have an accountability partner per say, but I have a friend who understands and helps me when I need it.

Your H does need counseling, and probably medication. Usually, a medication for obessive compulsive behavior is needed even if he isn't truly OCD. At the very least, the medication will allow him to suppress the urges until he can get new habits and behaviors in place.

I will tell you that if he resists seeing a counselor, resists treatment, then he isn't really serious about giving it up, just serious about telling you he is and trying to hide it better.

Good luck.

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Nope, you're not alone. I too thought I was a crazy woman. Truthfully, I still wonder about it!

What has helped me more than I can say is the support I have gotten from friends I didn't even know I had. I don't have to tell you how worthless this can make you feel, how unloved or unwanted. Damage said he has an accountability "friend." I do too. She's helped me IMMENSELY. If you know of anyone who may be able to support you through this on a daily basis, please enlist her help. (No opposite sex accountability partners, please ) As you get stronger, perhaps you won't need daily support.

When I asked my H to leave, I was under the impression that he may be a sex addict. I searched a LOT of websites about it, got some books on help for partners. He may not be as deep into it as I first thought (or it might be worse , God Fobid!), but the books were a comfort. If you are interested, look up SexAddict.com. The book I'm finding most helpful is "Parter's Recovery Guide, 100 Empowering Exercises." It brings out a lot of yucky feelings, but we're supposed to face those, right? Some of the exercises seem really tacky, but by golly, they work.

The book is also big on the 12-step program. I don't follow that, but the exercises are helping me face some of my insecurities.

My biggest fear is that my husband is doing what Damage did (hiding the porn even better). I'm not dealing with that cr*p. He either gets help or we live separate lives. To his credit, he did start with an emotion regulation treatment and he attended SAA for about 6 weeks. Our coach has agreed to him stopping SAA since he doesn't seem to have the same level of the compulsion (the urges that Damage talks about) as the people in his group.

And I'll second Damage. Your husband can NOT use you as a sounding board in his journey to stop porn usage. He needs to get himself a person who will help him overcome this. He can not do it alone, no matter what he may think.

I think Damage is spot on about believing behavior. If your H is unwilling to get treatment, to find an accountability partner, to be completely transparent with you - you've got to make some hard decisions. Get help for yourself first though so you can make the decisions.

It's a rough road we're on, huh?

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I just wish I knew how big of a problem there really is/was. If the frequence of use really was only once or twice every couple of months, then I don't think that I would really be worried. But the fact that he hid it and lied straight into my eyes scares the **** out of me. All I can think is "What else is he hiding?" Is he going to do it again or is he still hiding some materials.

I also don't what to blow it out of proportion. What if he realized that he was losing me and is trying to be H&O. If you had a chance to read my original post you'd read that he also lied about having gone to a strip club, but he fessed up the next day. He could have lied, I wouldn't have ever known. I am upset that he went, but he said that he didn't want to go and that he felt uncomfortable being there. His buddies bugged him to go. One of them is a relentless scumbag, and even though my H CHOSE to go, I can kind of understand why. The damage has been done by the lies and hidden porn.

Damage- I've been reading your and your W's posts and my heart goes out to you both. You've both been through alot of heartache. I love the fact that you are both here for support. I just showed my H this site and I hope he will seriously look at it. I hope he sees what damage has been done by porn and lies to other M's. I also printed out the EN questionaire and asked him to fill it out.

SLA- Again, I'm so glad to have someone feel the same way I do. No one I've spoken to feels the way I do, but they are supportive nonetheless. I do have one person that I work with who I have confided in. Although she doesn't object to porn use she understands that I do and is a wonderful person to talk to. She helped me through the first several days and continues to "lend an ear". I, too, felt like I should have an affair. He claimed to not understand why I was so hurt and upset. I thought, "Well, that'll show him. Then he'll understand". To him it was only "human bodies" and to me it is borderline infidelity. And the lies have exascerbated (SP?) the pain.

I wish he would have just been honest!

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H still hasn't looked at site, and I don't think he has started doing EN questionaire, but he did clean up kitchen and vacuum while I was out working. A much better way to spend "freetime"!!! Love deposit.

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Hiya NTT,

I also wish I knew how big the problem is. He told me it was occasionally, told others periodically, then I bought a computer recovery program on-line and found out it's more like 2-3 times a week. He also told me he "usually" did it when he was angry at me, but I found dates that proved it was when I was in the hospital dealing with miscarriages, on holidays, on birthdays and just before & after happy family vacations.

He told me over and over that porn was digusting and degrading, that Satan (we're Christians) has messed up sex with porn, that he didn't really enjoy watching the live masturbation shows at the bachelor parties and skirted around what happened at his bach. party to the extent that I believed it was "innocent."

So, I personally don't think you can believe a word a liar says. He lied. My husband lied. Your husband actively misled you. Mine misled me.

Now that you've found out, I guarantee he's minimizing.

That's not to say that he isn't truly sorry, or doesn't really want to change. He might. He might also not be addicted. But he has to face what he's done, why he does it and learn how to replace the desire to do it when temptation arises again.

Your husband helping around the house is a way to minimize his guilt, to make him look like he's actually changing (without telling you the whole truth), and to get you to calm down. How do I know? Nine years of this kind of behavior has finally gotten through to me.

You can not know the extent of the problem until he tells you. He will not tell you unless he is forced to. I think you might want to consider counselling - at the least - to work on this one particular issue. Don't let him side track it. He may not feel comfortable with you in the session - which I could understand. So maybe he'd have to go alone for a bit until he could get the courage up to explain.

I personally don't want to know everything. It's bad enough knowing he went to prostitute sites chatting with underage women. Gross.

I do however want answers. And I won't trust him just giving them to me. He's going to have to take a test. My H is untrustworthy. He isn't going to like this (haven't told him yet), but he's the one who chose to lie while telling me he was the most honest person I'd ever meet, manipulating me into believing it. My H may even have to take more than 1 test.

I suppose that's harsh, but this is MY life, MY marriage and MY kids we're talking about. I'm not farting around with this. I will be respectful, I will chose compassion, but he will be held to the fire. I won't let this get even worse than it is without fighting.

So, personally, I think your first decision will have to be what are you willing to do to get to the truth? How much truth do you want to know? I honestly don't think you can decide these things yet. You should probably get help - most likely professional. How relived will you be to find out it isn't addiction? How horrified could you be to find out in 5 years that he's now visiting prostitutes (if he is addicted)? While I know that's worst case scenerio, it doesn't take much to cross the line to more serious infidelity (as shown on this site) especially if the moral walls are already coming down.....

If you want, I can recommend my coach to you. She's pretty good. She went through the Marriage Builders Program and has started a community/coaching practice of her own. My personal e-mail address is NanciFaith@gmail.com.

Don't count on your H wanting to come to MB. I've tried to get mine here for almost 5 years. If your H is like mine, he truthfully doesn't think he has any kind of problem. He's willing to placate you - and may honestly think he'll stop - but when times get tough he won't have the tools to do what he needs to do.

Sigh.

Hugs to you, (((NTT)))

P.S. I haven't gotten a chance to read any of your story, I'm sorry. I have 2 kids that I homeschool and try to keep from tearing my house down. So if I'm off base on anything, I apologize.

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Need - boy oh boy I wish I could give you an encouraging quip. But porn is a demon that has it's claws in more men than almost anyone realizes. i believe it to be worse than drug addiction, but I have never been addicted to drugs. Just porn.

Drastic measures are required to help him stop, and he must be willing to take drastic measures to change. For some men, never using a computer is required. Yes, that is drastic - but it is such a deep problem for men.

I used the site: www.recoverynation.com
It helped me change my very way of thinking. I had to undergo a paradigm shift. I quit porn Jan. 1 of 2005. I slipped for two weeks in May. I like to blame it on discovery of another affair - but it is MY issue. I have been free since then. The change of thought patterns - understanding what compulsive behaviour is - knowing when compulsive behaviour is occuring or about to occur - are all huge tasks. It is incredibly hard to do. After it is achieved, one must do maintenance to stay in the right frame of mind.

I do not know how to make him realize his issue. Possibly some other sites might be able to guide you. Maybe exposure???? Comments anyone??

As Damage_Inc says - you CAN NOT trust him. We make promises we intend to keep - but it seems impossible.

As with an affair - it is HIS responsibility to PROVE that he is clean. Sounds like a hard task. It is.

I got rid of my home office computer, and will not surf porn on the family computer. My job views all sites I visit - so I am well watched. AND - I am slowly changing my thought patterns. It beckons me sometimes. Best not to get on the computer at those times.

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I will pray for you and the men (and women) trapped by the claws of this predator.

Drastic measures. Face it, own it, and get moving. (Dr. Phil style )

By the way - that book actually helps, too. Dr. Phil's book - Life Strategies.

Pray hard!

far


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Hi again. I hope you are getting some good insight and support from those of us posting on this thread. Something that SLA said in her post really hit home with me, as well:

Quote:

Your husband helping around the house is a way to minimize his guilt, to make him look like he's actually changing (without telling you the whole truth), and to get you to calm down. How do I know? Nine years of this kind of behavior has finally gotten through to me.




Exactly!! My H (Damage) would say or do almost anything to try to get me to "let it go" for the thousandth time. He would look me straight in the eyes and lie to me, tell me he would never use it again, or that he didn't have any when he did. I still don't know the full extent of everything he did, and honestly, I don't think I want to. As I said before, it is my opinion that you cannot let this go. I see some behavioral patterns in your description of your H that are very familiar to me. If you don't get this issue under control, it will eat away at your heart and soul, and eventually destroy your marriage. I don't ever want you to be where I am right now........


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You know, porn can be something that can be shared between the two of you. Generally speaking men fantasize about the porn they are watching and use it as stimulation. It's how the porn is used to fantasize, and in what context that can be seriously damaging to yourself and others around you.

While the wife and I weren't meeting each others' emotional needs, I used porn as a crutch. However, I almost always fantasized about my wife watching it with me, enjoying it. Possibly recreating the images on-screen. I wasn't for once excluding my wife from my fantasies, it's just that I couldn't broach the topic with her, against it as she used to be.

I find now, that simply her openness to want to participate in watching it, even experimentally, makes me want the porn even less (it's a long story- but if you need to know- just ask). I find my emotional needs being met by my wife, and I no longer need the crutch. Still, it's nice that I no longer need to hide it from her. It's been nice to not lie to her... BIG Love Buster overall.

I know it's probably not the thing you wanted to hear, but I think porn can serve it's purpose in a relationship if not abused, obscene, or overused. I mean there was a time Adult toys would have been abhorred in our home, but now things are a tad bit different and sexually things have improved greatly thusfar. It has really relieved the strains in our marriage. Maybe your husband is thinking the same things I used to, too?


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Hi Endless,

I've heard this theory before. I just don't get it. I'm not trying to slam you.

If my husband had wanted to share the porn, why did he go to such lengths to deceive me into believing that he hated it? I would bring this up with him, try to discuss what men found so appealing in it - all I ever got was "I don't know. I don't get it. I think it's disgusting." Or "we need to make sure the boys don't get hooked into that stuff. It's nasty."

Maybe that isn't what Need is getting from her husband. But the bottom line for me isn't just the porn. It's the deception and straight out lying to me that I am finding difficult to get over. Then telling me that it's my fault he had to go look at it because "we" couldn't get along!! Oh my. He used porn to drive a wedge between us.

I doubt I could ever be happy using porn as part of my sex life. But I would have been willing to discuss it with him, to try and see it from his point of view. Now, however, there is absolutely no way I could even begin to dream of allowing it in my house. The hatred I feel for that stuff and the revulsion I feel for my husband in going to that instead of me is overwhelming.

It's nice to hear that you were able to finally talk to your wife about it. That you are glad the lies are done with. That's encouraging to me - perhaps now that he's been caught lying, he'll stop, and work with me.

Thanks for your point of view.

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Quote:

"...why did he go to such lengths to deceive me into believing that he hated it? I would bring this up with him, try to discuss what men found so appealing in it - all I ever got was "I don't know. I don't get it. I think it's disgusting." Or "we need to make sure the boys don't get hooked into that stuff. It's nasty.""




I think in my case, why I hid it from my wife intially was because it's embarrassing, and taboo. To admit that your husband fantasizes about you doing those things is probably shameful to him. I felt that it was a "tool", and something that "healthy" relationships never needed. I felt this way to a tee. It wasn't until after my wife's cybersex incident and emotional affair that I told her everything about myself, including my fantasies, as well as discussing hers (since this is where the cybersex stemmed from). I had nothing left to lose, so to put everything on the table, face up, was my only option left to me.

Luckily, things worked out a bit better for me than some. Ever since my second child was born, my wife has had an increasing libido, and an increasing interest in this avenue of exploring her sexuality. She was scared to approach me on the subject because of her past views and fear of seeming hypocritical. Previously, she was always dead-set against porn; yet not all is violent or derogatory to woman.

We share a same interest in what we wish to watch though, so our similarities in sexual desires and preferences merge nicely. I'm glad I can be there to do this for her, and vice versa. If I'm not there to help her "explore", then there's always someone else.

Still, if your husband does have these fantasies, him owning up to it is unlikely, especially if he's still condemning it in the same breath; this will only lead to him concealing the urge further (trust me I know- the wife caught me viewing it occasionally through files found on the computer, yet I refused to stop and justified it wholeheartedly, all the while lying to her, telling her I was going to stop). Still, if you're against it, he has to be able to stop for your sake.

I understand your pain though. Finding out how my wife was talking to this "chap" online was crushing, yet to her was hardly anything but fantasy- she equated it to my porn-viewing. Since coming here, I have realized just how subjective the idea of "cheating" is, and in many regards am happy that both of us used fairly unobtrusive ways to help us through this tough time in our lives. If it weren't for the porn, I would have probably already cheated on my wife a long while ago.

That really hurts admitting that, but it was the porn that I used to replace the loveless sex I was having then with my wife, with something much more fantastical, and alot less damaging than a purely physical affair. The same could be said of my wife, while she was talking with someone online for a while, and developed a relationship, the phyisical aspect never manifested, and I was allowed in turn a "second chance".

Good luck to you.


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Hey EH,

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the discussions on porn at the moment. I know it's because of the hurt I feel, so I'm trying to not get too emotional.

I don't know what fantasies my H has. I've asked, he's told me he doesn't have any. He tells me he rarely thinks about sex. He isn't looking for anyone supposedly, yet he's frequenting "adults seeking" sites.

I take that back. He did have one fantasy that he finally told me about. I provided it for him on a continuing basis, then he lost interest.

So while I understand that somehow porn has enhanced your marriage (I'm really, really sorry. I just can't understand that!!), it has done nothing but destroy mine. It can't be allowed, even if he thinks it would help.

I don't know if I'm a prude, but if he can't live without it, then I'd rather be like WomanofFaith. I'll divorce, and with God's grace find a man who will actively live the life he portrays.

It's all confusing to me right now. I want to love and trust my H again, but he revolts me. I lost almost all my deposits over the past 5 years. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Sorry to threadjack NTT. I'm thinking of ya.

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Quote:

I want to love and trust my H again, but he revolts me.




sadly, I know the feeling.

In my case, my WxH never cared if I loved or trusted him again. he said "I like porn, and you don't. OW likes it too, so that means she and are meant to be together." Of course, he is no longer with that soul mate. He had to find another one.

I just don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I didn't D my WxH because of his porn use. he just refused to give it up, refused to give up OW, and insisted on D. Out of the ashes of that broken R, I have manged to build a better life.


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My apologies WomanofFaith. I didn't actually mean to imply that you divorced your husband because of his porn use. I didn't realize how that sounded.

But I would like to have an ending like yours. A man who actually lives the life he preaches! My word, how sexy would THAT be!

I loved your post on SmartCookie's thread, btw. Thanks for posting it.

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Dear N2T,

I once embraced the philosophy that Endless Horizon espouses. It cost me my sex drive, my self esteem, and my self-respect. It reduced something sacred and wonderful between my husband and myself to the baseness of animals. I hated myself for having participated in it for one second. I hated what it had cost me. To this day, those wonderful tingly feelings have NEVER come back.

So go ahead - give in to the devil that some would advocate enhance a marriage. But I know this for a fact: it has not enhanced mine. It very nearly destroyed it; and my husband has still not recovered his self-respect because he is still trapped in it.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: May 2002
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Needtotalk - Just curious before I venture anymore into this discussion, are you and your husband Christians?

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