Hello, MBs. This is likely to be a long post, so please bear with me.

I'll introduce myself as a 37 year old, never married female. I have no children. I'm an independent contractor and I relocate approximately every 18 months or so, the location dependent upon lucrative offers. I'm American, but spend most of my time in European countries. Most of the people I encounter professionally are similarly transient, so I admit I am relatively inexperienced in personal situations involving long term, stable relationships. My entire world changes every two years or so on average, including the people in it. Of course, I've vicariously witnessed friends, co-workers, and relatives engaged in marital situations, some happy, some touched by issues of domestic violence, extra-marital affairs, blended families, sexual problems, alcohol and drug addiction, in-law difficulties, porn problems, custody battles, mental illness, and practically every other catastrophy that can visit people and families trying to build a life together. I generally manage to remain on the fringes of such situations, and try not to get too involved in them. I am admittedly the last person to evaluate such situations realistically as I am not remotely willing to invest the time and energy and effort required to build, sustain, and nurture a long-term or life-long relationship with an intimate partner. I do, however, understand that many people are invested in such a thing and expend great effort, emotional energy, and personal sacrifice in order to bring about an intimate and family situation that is fulfilling to them. I do *get it* and respect it, but it's just not for me.

So why on earth am I posting on a marriage builder's forum? I found my way here initially because a close friend of mine discovered her husband had become involved in an affair with a co-worker and my friend had no idea what to do or how to handle it. She was devastated and I knew I was completely out of my depth in terms of helping her in the matter. My personal response to such an event would have been, "You want someone else? Have at it. I wish you well." But she wanted to save her marriage, to win him back, to salvage their marriage for the sake of their family, their children. That was a completely alien concept to me personally, because I have never been there, and I knew my way was definitely not her way. I told her I was not equipped to assist her and suggested she and her spouse engage a marriage counselor and perhaps both enter individual counseling to figure themselves out. She was all for that, but he refused and insisted his affair was "her fault," for not being.....whatever. You know the drill. You here call it the "fog" but I recognize it as a fairly basic cognitive distortion on his part, and a deliberate effort to deflect responsibility for the affair from himself to her. But that is a different topic altogether, and one I could write a dissertation about. Anyway, in the end, she decided to accept responsibility for his actions and continues to turn herself inside out in an effort to "please" him and make herself "good enough" or "better than" the OW for him somehow. And no, it's not a good "plan A." Rather, it's her letting him do whatever he wants, including staying out all night or all weekend with the OW, in order to not "make waves," or "make him mad." He's a cake-eater and she is letting him eat or f*** his cake anytime he wants to. After reading here a bit, I pointed her in this direction. She didn't get what I was saying, but I held out some hope she would get what you all are saying. She read a bit as well, and concluded, "That would never work for me and my WH; he would leave me in a minute if I did any of those plan A or plan B or exposure things they talk about." Anyway, that is her situation to handle. I think I've done what I could to direct her to MC, IC, and this board. She continues to not act, which is her choice, self-defeating as it is.

Anyway, that is how I ended up here in the first place. On the surface her experiences seemed to have nothing to do with me, but after reading hundreds of posts on this site, I realized I myself was engaging in an EMR and fit the definition of the OW. Let me put on my flame-proof suit and explain.

When I arrived on this job 16 months ago I settled in, got the job on track, met quite a few people, both American and locals. I love to travel, so I started organizing weekend trips with other like-minded people. I got along very well with one particular man I worked very closely with and for very long hours. He also began to join us on our weekend trips. I don't tend to pry into people's personal business, but I'd heard gossip that a few months previous to my arrival something had gone very wrong in this man's marriage, which culminated in his wife leaving the country. I didn't bring up the topic with him, but over the course of the next few months, he began to tell me the story about what happened - the classic start of an EA. Anyway, the basic story, according to him, was that the previous year he and his wife were having problems and he began to tell his problems to a young, subordinate, female who was also having marital problems, which she in turn shared with him. Before his EA with her had a chance to evolve into a PA, his wife hacked into his e-mail account and discovered dozens of pretty intimate, inappropriate messages between him and the OW. At the time, this man was in line for promotion to CEO of the company, something he'd worked 20 years for, and discovery of this inappropriate affair would have ended all chance of that. His BS was in a very powerful position with this company as well. At that time, they'd been married about two years, his first marriage, her third. He is 40, she's 41. They have no children. His BS demanded he cease personal contact with the OW, which he did. The OW was due to leave the country in a few weeks anyway. At that point, I think the damage could have been repaired using MB principles, and some investigation into what had happened in their relationship that led to him choosing to confide in another woman, rather than sharing with his BS.

Unfortunately, that is not what happened. What happened instead was a lot of LBing on BS's part and she held over his head threats to expose the affair whenever she wanted to get him in line about something. Disagreements, demands, and dissatisfactions of hers led to her threatening to expose him with the information. In his words, "She had me by the balls, and she knew it." I saw some e-mail traffic between him and his BS and can perfectly understand why his LB was empty - the emails were full of name calling, DJs, and threats. He eventually told her that was no way to conduct a marriage and that he couldn't continue to live like that. His BS was incensed when he confronted her with his dissatisfaction with the state of the marriage, and his refusal to participate any longer. In the end, she made good on her threats and forwarded the e-mails to essentially everybody. The boss, the other competitors for the CEO position, co-workers, friends, relatives, basically anyone she had an e-mail address for. An investigation ensued into his inappropriate relationship with this subordinate female and though in the end he was cleared of any harrassment or favoritism allegations, he lost any chance of being promoted. It was simply beyond my understanding that she would have done such a thing for apparently no reason other than to be nasty, and I told him I thought there had to be more to it. I suspected she'd done it because he refused to remain NC with the OW, or had taken up with another one. He gave me permission to read the investigative report, which I did, and there was no evidence whatsoever that he continued his relationship with OW or started up with a new one. His BS appears to have forwarded those emails with no motive other than spite, power and anger. Others may disagree with me, but that is exactly how I see it. Yes, it was extremely stupid and wrong for him to have had an EA in the first place and none of these consequences to his career would have happened if he hadn't, but the EA was OVER and the OW was now tens of thousands of miles away. In my opinion, earth-scorching exposure at that point was simply destructive to the marital relationship. In her position, I'd have been doing things to draw him closer to me rather than doing things to humiliate, enrage, and distance him from me. But that's just me. It's been my experience that one draws more flies with honey than with vinegar.

He did the smart thing at that point, in my opinion, and packed his bags and left her. She, in turn, left the country about a month later. I came along about 3 months after that. Eventually my relationship with him evolved from an EA to a PA. I label it that way because even though she was long gone and in another country, he was legally still married to her. At that point, I didn't see myself as an OW. I saw myself as simply enjoying a companionship with someone who'd just left a relationship that went dreadfully wrong. We spent most of our time together, working, traveling, sight-seeing. The last four months or so he was here, he basically lived at my house. I'm usually averse to such constant companionship, but we got along well and I enjoyed having him around. At the same time, I am not stupid. I understood he was an individual who had issues with loyalty, commitment and honesty he at some point had to work on if he intended to marry again. I understood his state of mind without judging him or feeling threatened, but I feel relatively sorry for anyone who tries to have an intimate relationship with him before he figures all this stuff out. In return, he understood I was a human being who had no desire for exclusive, long term relationships and one who prefers brutal honesty and has no patience for the b*llsh*t people seem to like to put others through. He was perfectly aware that my next contract dictates where I choose to go - and that could be Toyko, Prague, South Africa, any number of places. And he knew I would be going there alone. I never misled him about my nomadic lifestyle or his temporary place in my life. In fact, I think his acceptance of my own personal path is what drew me so close to him. Many people just like to give me ****** over it. He's never done that. I guess you could say we Plan A'd the ****** out of each other and it worked well. It was the ultimate fantasy, divorced from the realities of a real relationship. I understood that. I don't think he did.

Now on to the really ugly part. Being essentially finished at the company he'd worked 20+ years for, and with no opportunity for upward movement, he turned his sights to other opportunities. At the same time, his BS was a powerful force at a different company and had been making requests to reconcile with him. In his mind, she had destroyed his career and she "owed" him. He decided to use her to gain entrance to an executive position at the company she now works for. So, he began making "reconciliation is possible, but I need....." noises, and she fell for it and got him an in with the execs at her company. He moved back in with her and, with her influence, was hired at a high-level position. His plan is to pacify her for a year or so, cement his position with the company, and after a year or so transfer without her to the position he really has his sights set on. I personally find his conduct reprehensible, and told him so. His BS has no idea he's been involved in a PA with me for the past year, or that he is lying to her and using her terribly. The reality of the situation is that she thinks he has come back to her to recover the marriage, but he is doing nothing more than screwing her over for his own gain, trying to keep me on the side, and he's feeling perfectly justified in doing both. Not only does he have an OW she knows nothing about, he has a professional ulterior motive she knows nothing about.

After he moved in with her, I continued to tell him what he was doing was shabby in the extreme, and that I was disgusted he'd chosen such a path. He continued to justify it in the vein that "she owed him," and accused me of being "judgmental." I did continue to accept phone calls and emails from him and kept in contact with him about the situation. Until I found this place. I now understand that my usual nonjudgmental, understanding, easy-going, Plan A nature is enabling him to continue on his wayward path, and that I've been in essence participating in a EA/PA with this man, and condoning his abysmal treatment of his wife. Yes, she did crappy things, but she doesn't deserve this. That reality crashed in on me a few weeks ago when she called my home saying, "I don't know who the f*** you are, but your phone number is all over my husband's cell bill, and I don't appreciate it." Her message to me was loud and clear. She is invested in recovering her marriage and I'm in the way of that. I bowed out at that point and sent her husband a NC email.

He has continued to email and call me incessantly, but I have not responded in any way. I received 4 emails from him just today. He loves me, he knows we'll be together someday, this is just the path he needs to walk in order to get there. I want no part of him or his destructive path. In the past, I would have continued to take his calls and his emails under the guise of being "a friend," but after reading hundreds of posts here, I understand that I am simply just another OW embroiled in someone else's marriage, and my presence is not doing anybody any good. Besides that, his dishonesty and deceit is just revolting to me, no matter how he tries to rationalize it. What he is doing is wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to articulate them here. That would take another 5,000 word post. Suffice to say, I am in NC with him and will remain that way.

Which brings me to the crux of this long, long post. For me, I'm happy to just move on, shrug my shoulders at the insanity of other people, live and learn, and go about my life. I'm happy to tell myself that their situation is not my problem and leave them to their trainwreck. But part of me knows his BS has a right to know exactly what she is involved in so that she can make informed decisions about her life. At the same time, I am very self protective, and given her past behavior, I have no doubt she'll come after me with a vengeance if she learns of my role in this thing. I really don't want that aggravation. I am out of this thing and would like to keep it that way. I think about her though and think she deserves to know what she is dealing with. I'd sure as ****** want to know if it were me. I also wonder if my desire to tell her the truth about what he is doing to her is nothing more than me being irritated about him getting away with it.

I wasn't sure what my aim was when I initially started this post, but I now realize exactly what it is I want from you kind people here. I want support in doing what I already know is the right thing, but in my own selfishness can't sacrifice myself to do. How crappy is that?

For those of you who've managed to make it to the end of this saga, thank you for taking the time to read it. For those of you who haul out the 2x4 and bash me upside the head for ever getting involved in such a situation, have at it. I'm a big girl. For those of you with words of wisdom, thank you in advance for taking the time to convey them to me. I know the "right" thing to do is to tell his BS, I'm just having trouble mustering the b**** to do it.

No matter what happens, I'm glad I found this board and decided to read it. I've come to realize that even though I myself am not married and have no plans to be so, I need to have greater insight and understanding for the people who are, and I need to have greater understanding of how my ignorance about marital relationships has lead to problems for other people who are on the marriage path. I know I've learned my lesson about choosing to get involved with a recently separated, still married man. Now I just need to figure out what to do about conveying this information to his BS.

Thanks for listening.

Hi Noelle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have an idea.

Since you explained your sitch so well in your post, I would suggest calling Steve Harley's office and asking if you can send it to SH for him to read....and then for him to decide if he will give you a few minutes as a one-time freebie to advise you of what to do about the OMW.

Whatcha think?

Noelle,

This is one of those examples where exposure is both right and wrong. Whenever an OW asks about exposure....it's all balled up with alot of other things besides ethics and "rightness". You've even mentioned some of these things: punishment (don't want him to get away with it), more punishment (know that his wife is capable of really castrating him), pride, anger....all sorts of stuff. That's why for me....who's avoiding/advocating exposure is an important component....the WS, the BS, the OP. What are their motives? Everybody has different reasons for exposure....WSs are often trying to protect themselves, BSs often just want to put things behind them, but OPs...well....they usually want to stir things up.

I think the "right" thing to do is to remain in no contact unless she calls you for details. She knows about you. She knows your number. I'm not saying don't expose! if she calls you directly and asks....by all means....TELL ALL. Besides....what makes you think you know the "truth" when all you know is what he told you. He could have made up all that stuff just to keep you hanging on. Who knows?

I believe his wife already knows the kind of man she's married to (she caught him once, and she called YOU because she knows this time too)....and she wants him anyway.

I hope you're serious about getting on the learning curve....because you could easily end up being a serial OW if you keep this up. The kind of lifestyle/mindset you describe is very well suited to a pleasure driven life that pushes the moral/ethical envelope...yanno? Good Luck.

just my .02

Lady, don’t overcomplicate this. In spite of a faintly pretentious explanation of your situation, it’s not all that special. It happens all the time, whether the participants are candidates for CEO or Arkansas hillbillies. For every wayward spouse, there is an “other person” and, unfortunately, this time it’s you. To your credit, you belatedly see yourself as a partner to an ugly adultery and you’ve decided it’s not what you want to be.

Congratulations…and I mean that seriously. Many OP’s do not have the integrity to analyze their situation and never arrive at the realization it’s dishonest and demeaning.

Look, without regard to how petty she was when she ran her power play earlier in her marriage, she retains the right we all have to address adultery in our relationships. You would be well advised to do the right thing for the woman who has been wronged. Write her a letter or an email, or call her to explain what happened between you and her husband and apologize for your intrusion into their marriage. Don’t wait for divine inspiration on the perfect words to use or the ideal moment because those things will never come – just do it.

LB - You're right. Calling and asking Steve Harley is not a bad idea. I'd venture a guess he knows worlds more about this kind of thing than I do. Thanks for the suggestion.

SF - Before I started reading here it never crossed my mind to tell his BS. I told him I thought what he was doing was wrong and watching him do it opened my eyes to the character I was dealing with, but I didn't think of telling her. I'm done with the situation, and I'm not much one to stir things up if I can instead just walk away peacefully. Your comments about understanding my motives before I do anything is dead on. I also agree that most of what I know about his situation and about his BS is information I gained from him; as such, that information is not exactly reliable. I don't dwell on that aspect of the situation because it really doesn't matter. What I do know firsthand is that he is in false recovery with her. For me personally, the easiest course of action is to keep walking away from both of them and not look back. I don't think the easiest course of action is always necessarily the right one, but in this case it just might be.

I appreciate your comment that my lifestyle contains pitfalls, and this situation certainly speaks to that. I witness quite a bit of mayhem in the personal lives of other people who are as rootless as I am. I really have no way of knowing the history of people I meet, do not have the advantage of knowing their families or life long friends or verifying anything they tell me. I myself could have a husband hidden away somewhere for all they know. At the same time, I feel like the luckiest person on earth to be doing the work I'm doing and having the opportunity to travel. It's not for everyone, but it suits me for now.

LH - I know my situation is not different or special. It never is and I'm not sitting around telling myself the thousand and one rationalizations people have for doing what everyone knows is wrong. We're not soulmates caught up in the love of a lifetime that "no one understands." He's a married man behaving in a very destructive way and I don't want or need that kind of person in my life. I get it, and I got out before he could drag me down with him.

I'll think about what you said in terms of telling her. Thank you.

JN,

My first inclination is to simply email the H and tell him not to contact you again. If he does that you will contact his W and let her know what has been going on between you two.

I too am very mixed about this. Her revenge was drastic, but it seems to me with these two that you really don't know what is really going on in their situation. You are best out of it and their lives. If you had hard data, or really had a clue about their true intentions that would be one thing, but I worry that you don't

Thus, removing yourself from this situation seems the best first step.

Just some thoughts.

JL

JL - That would be one way of handling the situation, but I'm not happy with that solution for two reasons. One, I've been clear with him that I am not contacting him again or responding to him contacting me. To send him a message now would be just that - more contact. Two, I'm not comfortable putting him the driver's seat and handing him the keys to a decision I don't think he has the right to make for me. Does that make sense?

Personally, I believe the BS needs to be told simply that you have had a sexual relationship with her husband - the one detail you know that is absolutely true - not he said she said - and let the cards fall where they may. His wife needs to know the unvarnished truth about her own life.

Longhorn is correct it's not that difficult.

I agree with starfish. Leave well enough alone. She already knows about you and if she wanted more information she would have asked you for it.

If you do ultimately decide to send the BS an email I suggest you keep it short and post it on this board BEFORE sending it for comment.

I also recommend that you offer her a private newly established email address that you will monitor for anywhere from 14 to 30 days to answer any questions she may have. MM will deny, deny and deny...so much so that she may have doubts about the emails authenticity. A place to ask questions gives you more credibility while at the same time respecting her right NOT to contact you ever again. After 14-30 days, you can move on without any reservations.

Still think you should leave it alone.

Mr. Wondering

Noelle,

IMHO both the BS and WS in this triangle are toxic for you. If you are not an OW (some like t/b OWs), then move on and do a better job next time you setup having even a casual R (i.e. friendship).

If I were you (not that you asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), I would send a note to the BS. She may not appreciate it but it will cause her to doubt the WS and prompt her to 'test' his so called recovery.

BS owes you nothing. What you stole from her, you can't repay so best to move on. The WS stole from his family of which he can never fully repay but that's his problem NOT yours.

Tell the BS and then say what she does with this info is now her business. If you can provide undisputable proof, then so be it but it may implicate you also and you need t/b prepared for that risk.

You don't really sound like a hard core diehard OW. Hope not.

Hope your next R is better than this one.

take care,
L.

Noelle, you asked for a "2x4" to not be spared, so perhaps you may read my comments as a "2x4," perhaps not. Either way, they will hopefully be something you will give serious thought to, perhaps even implement in your life.

You have a right to choose to live you life as a single person. The basis of your choice seems evident, it's what you want. That is one form of "self-centeredness," "selfishness," etc. that is not, in itself, destructive. It is destructive when you use it to "feel free" to inject yourself into anyone's life and use them for your gratification. That is what you did in this instance, and probably in other instances even though you might have been "blind" to it because you didn't get to see the ugly truth of the consequences of adultery, emotional or physical.

Having said that, let me address some pertinent parts of your story.



This is the "starting point." You have chosen this lifestyle because it fits what you perceive as "your needs." But more importantly is your statement, "I am admittedly the last person to evaluate such situations realistically."

This is a true statement, but it is also one that you choose to ignore because you are a "control" person. You think you can gain a little "book knowledge" (i.e., read MB principles) and can then set yourself up as a "judge" of marital situations and how to handle them in ways that you "think" you would do or wouldn't do. But the bottom line is that you have no practical experience on which to base sound evaluations. What's worse is that you come at the issues from the standpoint of a "user." You use people for your own wants and stand ready to discard them the minute they become "inconvenient" for you.

That stems from the first point about being selfish. "Selfishness" and "Self-centeredness" is the antithesis of marriage in general, and how a husband and wife should relate to each other in marriage. In marriage there should be mutual "surrender" of many "selfish" things, beginning with right to have sex with any other person on the planet. In short, they, like you have chosen your own, have CHOSEN a "lifestyle" (in this case, Marriage) that excludes the right, under any circumstance(s), to engage in relationships that "cross the line" emotionally or physically in direct violation of the voluntary VOW that they took.



Again, you have no concept of the depth of the devastation of marital betrayal that a Betrayed Spouse feels. There does not have to "more to it" as you seek reasons. Why? Because you refuse to become emotionally invested in anyone to the level of Exclusivity for the "rest of your life." You simply don't understand, but there is perhaps one "analogy" that you might understand.

If you were severely beaten, repeatedly raped, left for dead on the side of the road by someone, would THAT situation be "enough" all by itself to send you into an emotional "jihad" against the perpetrator? Or would there need to be "something more?" What if the person was someone you worked with who was "up for the CEO spot" and had an outward appearance of being a "good guy?"

And while we are on the subject of analogies, what about the person who held you down and helped himself to your batttered and bruised body because he felt you needed a little "less violent" sex? After all, he was getting his needs met at your expense, but he had no intention of helping your heal, marrying you, and then having consensual sex with you. In a marriage, Noelle, the husband and wife are NOT "two" people, they are "one flesh." What you do to one of them has a direct impact on the other. "Excuses," such as "we're separated," don't count. They remain Married even if they are not living together at that point in time. So the "original Other Woman" did the first brutal raping, and then along comes you (with your own self-centered focus) and "take advantage of the situation," all the while "insulating" yourself from responsibility because you "justify" your actions on "he knows that there's nothing permanent and I'll be gone with the wind when the next assignment hits."



Noelle, I'm going to assume that what is really going on here is that you are beginning to learn some "wisdom" from what you've been reading here, but that you still think that "wisdom" is for "other people" and not for yourself.

It IS true that you "can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink." It is equally true that you don't have the "rapist" do the leading because the natural suspicion would be "good water" or a "poisoned well?"
YOU have to "Drink the water" first, to "prove it is safe." That's going to be hard to do as long as you continue in you selfish, "me first," attitude. You will try "a little," point someone in a "direction," and then say to yourself, "well, I've done all that I can." That is a true statement, as far as it goes. The "truer" statement would be, "well, I've done all that I am willing to do." It's not an issue of capacity or capability. It's an issue of "do enough to make ME feel better, to ease MY feelings of guilt, etc.", but it is NOT all that could be done. "All that could be done" requires a deeper commitment of remorse and restitution for things that we, ourselves, have done to someone else. But the "easy answer" is "I don't have the time for that because I'm moving to my next assignment and my next target, having convinced myself that I 'did all I could'." That's about as helpful as the rapist in the previous example pointing you to the Hospital "way over there" that you can crawl to, if you have enough strength left, to get the care you would need to heal from your ordeal.



Noelle, this screams "self interest" and is further proof that your wanting to tell her is your way of "getting back" at him for having used YOU too. You want to use the excuse of informing his wife(who KNOWS her husband is an adulterer) as a way to "justify" in your mind seeking the same sort of "Revenge" against him that you chastised his wife for...exposing the rat beneath the nice looking suit.



Pretty "crappy," I'd say. But also about "par for the course" of how you approach relationships. It's all about YOU. You have already decided what is the "right thing" to do, and that "thing" is to be a further destructive force in a marriage that is none of your business.

Most of the people on MB who have lived through the nightmare rape of adultery in their lives, either as the Betrayed Spouse or the Wayward Spouse, will tell you that NONE of them "behaved rationally" or "made great judments" or "change their own behavior for the better" until LONG AFTER making a serious commitment to actually TRY to recover their marriages. It takes YEARS and a lot of hard work.

So the "man and his wife" may NOT be having the "best marriage possible" at this time, and may never have one. But it is THEIR marriage, not yours. Getting your revenge by informing his wife that he is an adultery (which she already knows) is just and excuse to make you "Feel Better" about yourself. The truth is that the only way you can "make yourself feel better" is to make the commitment to yourself to learn from your mistake and NOT get involved with ANY married man in the future.

I don't know if that will make much sense to you. But until you arrive at the point where you understand LOVE and surrender of "selfish desires" for the benefit of someone you truly love, I don't think you will change. You MAY put on a dress that "looks like" you "get it," but with the admitted self-centered focus of your life; "I am not remotely willing to invest the time and energy and effort required to build, sustain, and nurture a long-term or life-long relationship with an intimate partner;" I am pretty certain that you will take off that dress and put on one that says, "I'll have a temporary relationship with anyone I want to if I think I can get MY needs met without any investment of emotions or commitment."

I hope I'm wrong.

Stay out of all contact with this man and his wife. Go away "as if" you were dead and no longer exist.

If you persist in the need to contact the wife, then do so from the standpoint that YOU screwed up royally (because her husband only took advantage of what YOU let him "take advantage of") and that you beg her forgiveness for what you did to her. Take responsibility for YOUR actions is what I am saying and don't try to "shift the blame."



You're welcome.

May God grant you wisdom and learning.

I don't understand this

man has an emotional affair..
wife finds out..

man loses his chance to be promoted...(God knows money is soooo important....) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

you believe the man that he is not in contact with OW only because it is not eveidenced via COMPANY resources....

I would say that mimimally one would hope the the man and other women are 'smart' enough to take it off company time...

but you only know what HE has told you
you only know what he wants to reveal to make himself look 'good'

what we all know for a fact..is that he is capable of dishonest behaviors...that's a fact...

bottom line...

I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of this man's mouth...

what would be the point...

I always am very very wary of the villification of the BS when fed information via the WS...
for every nasty email there could be a hundred nice one...
and doubt there isn't a marriage that doesn't have some vile exchanges between them now and then....

personally I don't see one good reason not to answer the wifes' questions about what you know from him...
if she contacts and asks you again...


I am surprised that people see her exposure as drastic...when the only information of her motivation is from a WS....

ARK

ark - IF one considers the above quotation to be accurate, the wife has rejected "MB methods" for herself or her marriage. The wife has the right to "do things her way," even if we don't think it's in her best interest. Dumping more on her may expose the truth, but it's not likely to result in a saved marriage. We may not like it, but she has chosen to "try" in her own way and perhaps her husband will "come around."

Just one opinion, though.

God bless.

uhh the wife rejected marriage building principles...when offered to her by the OW>..

yeah she probably has rational insight that obviously the OW only wants whats best for her....

so BS are to take marriage advice from OW...

hee hee hee...that's one ole lead balloon that won't fly...

ARK

I don't know if there is a marriage worth saving or not..
but I do know that I am fundamentaly against witholding information from people who need that information to make fully informed decisions...

I'm sorry but I barely see the WS as the victim here...

ARK

Ark, I'm not sure where you got the concluding evaluation, but the BS is the victim, not the WS, in my opinion.

With respect to "withholding information," my opinion on it is generally in agreement with your dogmatic stance, but I also believe "one size does not fit all situations."

In this case the wife is aware of adultery, is aware of this OW (Noelle) and how to contact her, and if the wife feels that she needs or wants more information, she knows how to get it.

Whether or not "this" marriage is worth saving is, obviously, not up to us. That is a decision that the BS has to make for herself. HOW she chooses to go about it is her choice.

My understanding of the situation from what has been written is that Noelle is "out of the picture" and will remain out of the picture by her own choice. I see her contacting the wife as another breaking of the No Contact issue. It also has the added complication of the "motivation" for such a contact. I hear more of meeting Noelles' needs than any real concern for the wife or for saving their marriage. It's more of a "he's a heel and see you really should not be married to him."

He is a "heel" in my opinion, but then so are/were all Wayward Spouses prior to their "seeing the light" and making a choice to change.

This particular wife may not be one who needs or wants to know "all the details." She knows the one "detail" that is really needed to be known, her husband chose adultery and is quite capable of choosing it again. From that knowledge point, she has to choose what her response will be and how she needs to proceed to recover HER marriage, if recovery is what she wants.

I think she is wrong to attempt to "do it her way," but it is her choice. That's really all that I was saying.

God bless.

BK & MrW - One says unvarnished truth, the other says leave it alone. I can't decide either. I think where I'm probably going wrong, as ForeverHers pointed out, is that I'm trying to come at this from a selfish perspective - ie what is best for me? Or what would I want done if I were the BS in question? Personally, I would want to be told. But I guess it's not about me, and shouldn't be.

ForeverHers - I came to this board with this question because I'm well aware I'm not the best judge of what to do in this situation. If I were, I wouldn't have made the decisions I've made thus far. I agree with you that I have no practical experience with marriage, commitment, or selflessness in interpersonal relationships. I also admitted his BS's actions were beyond my understanding. The fact that I didn't understand her actions does not mean her actions were beyond factual understanding - her actions were simply beyond my understanding. The fact that I'll never understand the depths of her feelings until the same thing happens to me has not escaped my grasp either. Those are the main reasons I have remained still and done nothing beyond thinking the past month or so. I'm well aware I've done the wrong things thus far, but I don't plan to continue doing them.

I would like to clarify this quote from my initial post before I proceed:

"After reading here a bit, I pointed her in this direction. She didn't get what I was saying, but I held out some hope she would get what you all are saying. She read a bit as well, and concluded, "That would never work for me and my WH; he would leave me in a minute if I did any of those plan A or plan B or exposure things they talk about." Anyway, that is her situation to handle. I think I've done what I could to direct her to MC, IC, and this board. She continues to not act, which is her choice, self-defeating as it is."

That quote was in reference to a friend of mine who's husband is involved in a PA he refuses to stop. This friend is not the BS. I've never met, nor spoken to, the BS outside of one phone call she made to me several weeks ago. In that call, BS simply told me to stay the f*** away from her husband, then hung up on me. She asked me no questions and there was no conversation beyond that. The friend I was referring to in the quote does continue not to act, but I have not abandoned her. As I see it, I can listen to her, acknowledge her right to handle the situation as she sees fit, admit I'm out of my depth, and encourage her to MC and IC. What do you suggest I do, drag her to a counselor's office by her hair?

I think you somewhat misunderstand me, ForeverHers. You appear to have reached a conclusion that I gad about willy-nilly in my own self-interested fog whilst leaving a trail of oblivious destruction behind me. I admit I am very absorbed in my work and it consumes most of my attention, leaving little left over for my personal life. Frankly, that is probably why I've never married in the first place - at this time I cannot focus on both my profession and a marriage and do full justice to both. I became a doctor because it was my sincere desire to help people and that is what I choose to do with my time and my life. When I met the WS, I hadn't even been involved in a romantic relationship with a man in nearly 3 years. This is also the first time (that I'm aware of) that I've become involved with a married man.

I also believe you are quite wrong about me wanting "revenge" against this WS. Do I believe his actions are wrong? Yes, I do, but it's not exactly my business to avenge his wrongs. I have more constructive things to do with my time and energy. Had this man simply approached me, told me he'd chosen to reconcile with his wife and rebuild his marriage, I'd have hoped it worked out for both of them and you and I would not be having this conversation. As it is, he was blunt in his motive to use her and in his words, "F*** her over in a way she'll never forget." That motive is what troubles me in this scenario. Having an affair is bad enough, but watching someone maliciously, deliberately and with premeditation cause injury to someone else would piss me off no matter the circumstances and no matter who was enacting it.

You assert that I'm selfish in wanting to inform his BS about what is happening, but I feel like I'm selfish if I don't. You say, "It's their marriage, stay out it." I see your perspective, but when I see my neighbor kicking his puppy across the back yard, do you say to me, "It's his puppy, it's not your business, stay out of it?"

The only reason I've stayed out of this thus far is the hope he was lying his [censored] off to me about the reasons he moved in with her. I sincerely hope he stated those reasons to me simply to get rid of me because he sincerely wanted to go back to her and couldn't be honest with me about it. That fantasy I can live with. But I somehow know he could not have faked the obvious venom, glee and spite he expressed when talking about his plan. I can still see his face when he spoke of it and it chills me to the bone.

I appreciate your advice that I become less self-absorbed and care more about my fellow man. I'll remember that next time I'm in some remote village, living in a tent full of flies, stench, and rotten food. I'm sure the parents of the children I treated there would not share your opinion I don't know how to "surrender my selfish desires for the benefit of someone I truly love." You share your love with one life partner and perhaps children (I don't know), but please do not presume to know you're the authority on love in all its forms. I could choose to practice on Park Avenue, in a plush office, treating the sniffles of the children of the wealthy, living in a fine house, eating the best food, enjoying the ****** out of myself. Goodness knows, many of my self-centered and comfort driven colleagues do just that.

You've offered me your version of a 2x4 and I acknowledge you made some valid points. Now let me offer you a 2x4 in return. You've made some assumptions about me, my worldview, my behavior, my motives that are likely nothing more than a conglomeration of your experiences and ideas about other people and other situations you've experienced. Not everything nor everybody conforms to your preconceived notions of what an OP "must be like." Selfish, self-absorbed, oblivious, woefully misguided.

I acknowledge that I am undereducated in the realm of the day to day inner workings of a marriage. Please don't mistake that area of undereducation to mean I am oblivious and stupid and selfish in general.

Orchid - No, I'm not a diehard OW. If I'm honest with myself, and everyone else here, I have to tell you the over-riding reasons I'm not interested in being an OW is partially because it just strikes me wrong, but it's also partially because I don't need the distraction, drama, and destruction that kind of thing would bring to my work and goals in life. I don't have the patience for that kind of inefficiency and lack of purpose.

I appreciate your sentiment that I send a note to the BS, but frankly at this point I'm just tired and don't know what the ****** to do.

This is no doubt a very tough call. In my opinion this is an 80%/20% question. I'm 80% sure that the poster herein leaving them alone is the right call and I vacillate my opinion with a 20% doubt that I'm wrong and disclosure of the exact nature of their physical adulterous relationship and an apology (and nothing much more) is the right thing to do..

The above quote is the key to me (besides the fact you seem compelled to contact her which don't trust). It's the most reliable statement given in this whole mess. The BW called her and told her to "go away". NOT...what's going on or what happened. Just "GO AWAY". No matter how concisely and articulately the poster here describes her situation and intentions, I do not trust them and I have no idea what actual factual information she intends to tell the BW that may or may not help the BS save her marriage (which is one reason I still say if she does it...post it here for comment FIRST). The poster herein THINKS she has pertinent information about the OM to provide to the BS but that information is mostly just lies, fantasy crap and manipulative material she was fed by OM so OM could quell her fears, get her emotionally invested and get into her pants.

Again, BW said get the "____" out...so do it. If that means you have to carry around doubts, misgivings, upset, guilt, etc, then so be it. Those are your consequences for your inappropriate behavior. I'd rather YOU live with them than advise you to perhaps disrupt the BS's attempt to reconcile with her husband. Live and learn. NEVER do it again and if the BW EVER contacts you commit to being contrite, apologetic, remorseful and fully honest with the information you have without vindictiness towards OM or the BW. Right about now...you are NOT any better than him...but you can be.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I do have a problem with the fact that the WH keeps trying to contact you. Just maybe, if you are intent on doing it anyway, something like the following MAY suffice. Post it here in your own words. Others here are much better at these type things. Sample email to BW:

On January ___, 2007 you called me and demanded I no longer contact your husband. I immediately sent him a "no contact" email. He has continued to attempt contact with me as you can see from the attached emails (I have since blocked his emails from my inbox). Per your request, I have not accepted any calls from him, spoken with him nor responded to any of his attempts to maintain contact with me.

I very much apologize for my inappropriate behavior. I thought you marriage was over but I NEVER should have involved myself in what I now fully understand was a physical and adulterous relationship with a still married man. Even though I "feel" I was misled in many ways...what I did remains very wrong. I should have known better and I will never make the same mistake again. Should you desire any information from me I have set up the below lised email account which I will monitor for the next 30 days to honestly and contritely answer any questions, verify any detail and/or address any concerns you may have.

I again apologize for my behavior and hope that someday you can forgive me. I will strictly respect your request you made of me last month and NEVER have any contact with your husband again.

Noelle

repentfulgal@yahoo.com

With all due respect, Noelle, the following quotation from your initial post is ALL the information you bothered to provide to us concerning your "line of work."



Not one mention of being a Doctor. Just an "independent contractor" who bases her choices of where to work depending upon how "lucarative" the offers are. If you want to "jump on me" for making assumptions based upon the scanty information you provided, then I'd liken it to someone telling a Doctor that they didn't feel well, and then getting mad when the Doctor said "it's all in your head" after the appendix ruptured.




Very noble. I very much appreciate the Medical Profession and the people who work in it.



I have much, very much, respect for missionaries who give so selflessly to others in just the sort of environment you describe. But I am curious how the "lucrative" part fits in as you described the "how you decide on where to go next." Somehow "lucrative" and the fly infested tent scenario you paint here does not seem to "fit."




Noelle, I am not presuming to know everything about all expressions of love, but that was not the "topic" of this thread nor the topic under discussion. The topic was, and is, adultery and how it relates to marriage in general and to this marriage between your Married Wayward Spouse and his Betrayed Wife in specific.

I see you attacking me based on arguments about your "profession" that you gave us NO hint about, let alone any direct statement. THAT tells me about all I need to know about you and your self-absorption. In short, you attack anything or anyone that doesn't agree with you or that won't tell you that you are "right" and hide behind what a lucrative, caring, person you are instead of those evil Doctors who prefer local lucrativesness.

You can't stand the WS, but you can't seem to see your involvement was detrimental to the marriage, self-serving in that you got whatever needs met that you felt justified in shacking up with this guy, and are now wanting to tell his wife just what a jerk he is. You already knew that BEFORE you got involved with him yourself. So once again it seems that your "motivation" for the contact is NOT concern for the wife, but concern that you continue to appear to be a caring person, and thus can justify your actions.

There is obviously much more to this whole situation that you are dribbling out only as you see fit and when it seems to fit your purposes. But you right on at least one point, it IS very difficult to offer good, targeted, helpful advice without knowing the specifics of the whole situation. Just about as difficult as it is to diagnose appendicitis from an "I don't feel well" statement with no mention of accompanying right lower quadrent abdominal pain.

"Take two aspirins and see your Doctor in the morning" is just the sort of response to "I don't feel well" that some enterprising young ambulance chasing Attorney might like to file a malpractice suit over because you "missdiagnosed" the appendicitis and the patient almost died from the ruptured appendix. But I'd bet you would claim that the "patient" didn't give you all the facts on which to make an informed diagosis.

But if it makes you feel better to attack me for not being sensitive to your selfless practice of medicine in "far away places," even though you never provide that information, then feel free to do so. If you want to disagree with my opinion that you should stay completely out of their marriage, it would be more of the same, you are going to do whatever you want to do.

Nice to see MrW having a bet both ways.

I just believe the BS has the right to this information about her own life.

But Noelle - you can scarcely be trusted to provide that information - anything other than the barest of facts would make your motives suspect.

As I originally posted, I do think you should tell her the nature of your relationship with her husband but no more.

She's giving off strong indications that she wants to do it irregardless (snicker) of what we say and it MAY be the correct course of action. The MM may have led the BS to believe that Noelle was some stalking young intern he in no way had any relationship with. If so...the BS deserves the truth. Thus, I thought I'd give her some words/ideas on just how to start such email.

Still think, from what we know, and IF she can get MM to stop contacting her, that NO CONTACT for life is the way to go here...unless the BS contacts her again with questions.

Mr. Wondering

MrW are you going soft on exposure? The BS needs to know. Who else is going to do that?

Actually, to be honest, I'm amazed you would take the correct stance with LousyGolfer over this issue but yet recommend this BS be kept in the dark.

The BS already knows there was an OW while she and her husband were seperated, she called and told Noelle off.

I think Noelle is asking if she should tell the BS that her husband got back together with her out of malice, to exact revenge on her for exposing and (in his mind) causing damage to his career. The BS knows her husband has cheated on her twice in a short time frame, that isn't really the issue.

Noelle, if I were in the shoes of the BS in this situation, of course I would want to know that my husband got back together with me just to cause me harm. Trouble is, (if I were her) and you called me and told me that, I would think you were the one with malicious intentions. That is just a really difficult thing to believe coming from the OW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> .

To be honest, I don't really think there is much you can do. If the BS calls and asks for info I have no doubt you would tell her. By chance do you know any of her friends? Maybe you could tell someone she knows, so she could hear it from someone else. If he truly got back together with her out of malice, that is going to come out, probably sooner rather then later.

This in fact is the record provided of her conversation with BW.


BW needs to know the extent of the relationship and that her WS continues to try and establish contact.

Sio2 - our posts crossed.

I don't believe she should do anything other than clear up the nature of her relationship with WS. Anything else would be perceived as being vindictive for sure.

Noelle, I think I owe you a bit of an apology. I re-read your initial post and I believe that you wrote about TWO different couples that were involved with adultery.

This "2nd" couple is the one where the husband was involved with you as his OW, not the first couple. This 2nd Couple have no chilren "in the mix" and the WS husband appears to be a "high powered user" of people. I assume he is also the type who will walk all over anyone to get what HE wants.

Therefore, I retract my advice to just "go away," because you sound like, albeit a little late, that you now recognize your "role" in his choice to commit adultery.

Since there are no children involved and the wife of this 2nd couple is not the one you first described (willing to be a doormat to keep her husband and a 'family' for her children), coupled with the fact that he continues "pursue you," I would recommend that you send the wife a copy of the No Contact email you sent the husband, a description of the length and nature(EA/PA) of his affair with you, and a brief description of his stated reasons for "going back to her." Keep your information factual and as emotionless as possible and let her know that you have learned about affairs and their destructiveness to all affected by them through this site and that you apologize to her and are removing yourself from all contact with her husband. Leave the door open that if SHE decides she wants any more information she can contact you.

Give her this site information so that she can have some support if she should choose to stay and try to turn things around, because her husband is NOT out of his "Fog" and not able to make any rational decisions concerning his marriage at this point.

Do not address your feelings that she did anything wrong in exposing him to the former employer because, right or wrong, her action was grounded in what we now see is a totally self-absorbed user of women to get what he wants, just as you now believe she needs to know what he is like(which was probably very similiar to the thoughts that went through her mind prior to choosing to expose him to his workplace "for the good of others").

Can this man change? Yes, we can all change. But given what little we know of the total situation I'd have to think that he has no reason to change and put someone else's needs ahead of his own. He "needs" you, so he continues to pursue you. He "needs" a job that affords him income to "do what he wants to do." He probably enjoys "power" over other people too. He "needs" his wife ONLY because she is in a position to help him get what he wants.

The wife did "owe him" in the sense that she seems to have recognized that her previous actions were driven by "personal desire to let him feel some of the pain" she was feeling as a result of his adultery. That's also how a lot of "revenge affairs" happen. Part of repentance is to try to make whatever "restitution" you can for the harm you have caused. She is doing that. But as all around here will tell you, NOTHING a Betrayed Spouse does will "register" with a WS who is still involved in an affair. And in his mind he is still involved with you and is pushing for a lifetime commitment from you even though his wife seems willing to try to honor her lifetime commitment to him regardless of his current "alien mindset."

Good luck with your career and your next assignment.

Noelle,

I've thought about this one....and I'll probably have to pick BK's jaw off the floor....but I agree with him and I'm going to change my stance....despite my misgivings about your motives. (bk...your repost about him continuing to call her was helpful). If this guy is still calling....the harm is ongoing and needs to stop. Make your exposure limited to the facts about your affair and his continued contact, your apology for intruding....as well as your promise not to accept any future contact from him. The rest of it is just drama.

I'm not soft on exposure just really hesitant to give my "stamp of approval" to an OW. Telling her go ahead is tantamount to giving her carte blanche. I MAY change my mind ONLY IF I see the words Noelle intends to use.

In my Postscript way above I indicated that the continuing contact represented a problem for me. I wasn't completely taking both sides of the issue...I just did a bit of re-reading and considered how Noelle and the marriage moves on with MM continuing to contact her. Therefore, I tried to give her some words.

Noelle is pissed and hurt. MM used her. It sounds like he wants to continue using her. She's perfect for him, he's got money and the ability to travel whereever Noelle ends up for NONCOMMITTED companionship and sexual liasons. MM thinks she's the jackpot. He can stay married AND have his cake. The whole "I'm just gonna use my wife for a year to improve my career and then we can be together" is a HUGE load of crap. If it was actually said; it's only typical fantasy wayward manipulation....to keep Noelle on the line or unhurt by his actions.

Then Noelle gets a FU call from BW. Not a "Who are you" but a FU. BW knows. You don't say FU to random people you call off a phone bill. From Noelle standpoint, imagaine the audacity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, being treated as a common wh*re <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> when the BW was the one that abandoned him and exposed his prior affair to all his co-workers and ruined his career. She's a DOCTOR, for pete's sake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> The pinnacle of often entitled professionalss. To Noelle, if BW had just stuck around and not given the appearance the marriage was over..she NEVER would have been involved with him. He was just a meaningless recretional companion...nothing that serious. Remember, she NEVER got wrapped up emotionally in the relationship as she so painstakingly wrote above.

I just don't buy it. She left out the whole Dr. part just to maintain a seeming trump card in case she was attacked as being a heartless, soulless, common OW. My gosh, she cures the sick with her hands and lives in tents with flies. She's so great. Much better then every OW we've seen around here before. Same crap ALL OW think. I'm special...listen to my side and if I say it eloquently enough it just might make it true. I can only imagine what I think she planned on writing to the BW. She perhaps doesn't want to wait an entire year for MM...so exposure may just speed it up.

Thus...I won't approve of it UNTIL I see it. I don't even have to live in Missouri to say "SHOW ME". Referring her to MB is not advisable (BW's don't want marital advice from the OW plus the OW has posted here). Mentioning that MM told her he intended to use his wife for a year and then come to her is also not advisable (unless HIS emails to her that she forwards state such). NOELLE supposedly won't be around in a year anyway (she's says she's done with the relationship) so this opportunity no longer exists...a typical affair fantasy lost in the wind of reality.

Mr. Wondering

Mr.W,

I'm not even sure we'll see Noelle again....much less get an idea of her exposure style....could be a postby shooting yanno? From the beginning, I haven't had a good feeling about sincerity or desire to protect the BS in this situation. There is a certain hedonistic quality about this chosen lifestyle that makes me question the capacity for real compassion or honesty in a life so self serving. Time will tell....she'll return or not....but like you....I'll believe it when I see it.

Dunno Star - she posted 2 days running - she may post in 6 hours or so.

I am picking my jaw up LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MrW - I know you are not soft on exposure - it was a cheap shot. Sorry.

No worries my friend

I'm still here. In fact, I intended to post this morning that I was giving myself some time to think through my thoughts and motives in regards to MM and his BS. MrW's post about suspecting my motives in telling the BS (ie she would kick him to the curb and he'd come back to me) was ironic in that his post helped me understand one of the main reasons I HADN'T told her. I'm was afraid if I did, not only might she have come after me, *he* might have wound up back on my doorstep. I've thought long and hard about that possible event, even before I posted on this board, and I am certain beyond doubt that I do not want this individual in my life - under any circumstances. I was leaning towards walking away from this experience, learning from it, and avoiding any repeat in the future.

BS removed that option this afternoon. I received a call from WS's country code and presuming it was him, let it go to voice mail. It was instead, her. She left a number and asked me to return her call. She said it was important, and she did not care what time I called her back. I admit I took a walk before I called her, not to make her wait, but to muster the b*lls to dial the phone.

She answered immediately and stated she presumed I knew why she was calling. I acknowledged I had a good idea why she was calling, but I preferred to let her lead the conversation. She asked me if I was still seeing her husband. I said no. She asked who broke it off. I told her I did. She asked why. I told her it was wrong for me to have been involved with him in the first place, and that I'd figured that out. She asked if I love him. I told her no. She asked if he loves me. I told no. She asked if he told me he loved me. I told her yes. She asked me when I started sleeping with him. I told her. She asked if I knew he was married. I said yes. I was fully expecting her to dress me down for that, but she was just quiet for a while. She asked me a series of questions about dates and times and vacations, and I got the impression she was methodically working out a timeline of how our affair intersected her life. She started asking such detailed questions about times and events, that I finally pulled out my dayplanner because I couldn't remember the details she was asking about. She was surprisingly calm throughout all this, but did makes comments about "that M-Fer, that bas****," and so on. I didn't agree or disagree, I just answered her questions. She eventually seemed satisfied about the events that occured while he was still here, and started asking about what was going on now.

I told her that I had broken off contact with him when she called me several weeks ago and that I had not called or emailed him since that time. She asked if he still called or emailed me. I told her yes, he has continued to leave me voicemails and send me emails. She asked me if I still had them. I told her yes, I did. She asked if I would forward the emails to her. I did that while she was still on the phone with me. There were a lot of them. Some were about me being the love of his life, and he'd do anything for me, and begging me to please answer him. Some were about what he was doing to her and his justifications for it. I spent a lot of time just being quiet. After reading through all that, she blew up. At him, at me, at men in general. She yelled at me that I must be some kind of selfish, f-ing, c-word to have f***ed her over like this. I told her I was sorry I had intruded on her marriage, I was sorry I had caused her pain, and told her there was no excuse for what I'd done. She attacked me saying, "If you're so f*cking sorry about it, why didn't you tell me what the [censored] he was doing? That b*astard is living in my house, f*cking me over. Don't sit there and tell me how f*cking sorry you are." I think I heard, "Selfish f*cking ******" at least 5 times. I stared at the wall, listening to her, not knowing what on earth to say. I kept wanting to defend myself, but thankfully managed to avoid going down that road. A few weeks ago, I would have.

She finally stopped yelling at me, then apologized. I told her she had nothing to apologize for. She asked me if I still had the voicemails. I told her I still had some of them. I'd been deleting a lot of the recent ones without listening to them, but there were still a few on my phone. She asked if she could hear them. I told her they were on my cell so I'd have to call her back on a landline if she wanted to hear them. She said yes, so I hung up and called her from my office phone. I put my cell on speaker and let her listen to the voicemails. 2 of them were from today, ironically time stamped during the time I was talking to her. She vented for a while after that and then asked me if I was going to call him back. I told her no. She asked if I would play the messages back again so she could record them. I did.

She told me she was exhausted, that she couldn't take any more of his sh*t, and demanded to know what my intentions were. I told her that when I told him not to contact me anymore, I meant it, and that I have no intention to answer him. I told her I'm changing my cell number (which I was in the process of doing before she called me) and that in 3 months I would no longer be here and he wouldn't have access to my work email either. He'd really have no way to contact me then. She asked me if I would be willing to forward to her any future messages from him. I said yes.

The end of the conversation was awkward. I assured her I would send any further email contact to her, and that I would answer whatever questions she had to the best of my ability. I apologized to her again, acknowledged I was wrong for everything I'd done, and tried to assure her I was absolutely, completely done with her WS. Even as I was saying it though, and meaning it, I thought, "Oh yeah, Noelle, what the ****** is your word worth to this woman?"

I know I was completely unprepared for that conversation and I should have gotten some direction before I called her back. I know I'm going to get some 2x4s from some of you because of the way I handled this, but I did the best I could. I did whatever she asked me to do. I know I screwed it up somehow because I left that conversation feeling like I should have done something more somehow. I'm also feeling pretty selfish at this moment because I sat around and did nothing until she called me and forced my hand. She let me know it, too.

Go ahead, beat me up. I assure you none of you could top her in making me feel like ******.

In my opinion you did well.

one of the greatest evils in my opinion is the absence of knowledge that a BS experiences...

the active denial by two people the WS and the OP .witholding information needed by a BS to make informed decisions...

it has to be so horrible to be in the dark why others willfully hold back information vital to ones

emotional
physical
and
financial well being....

I hope peace finds you soon...and you can strengthen yourself to never ever be in such a situation again...

here's the other thing...we know that people are predictable..

this guy continues to contact you after the ending...
lets just assume that he probably kept contacting his first OW (emotional affair) long after the ending..
then fed you the crap about no contact...just like he feeds his wife..

ARK

Your word might not mean much to her today...but your actions from here on out will.

LIVE up to your word.

No "closure" needed...there is absolutely no reason to disect and analyze bullcrap.

Move on and proceed with your life having learned a valuable lesson.

Find yourself a single available man....worthy of your company.

It appears you did pretty good today. If this whole story is factual and you are not a troll I commend you for posting and learning.

Mr. Wondering

BTW, do not try to befriend and involve yourself too much with "HELPING" the BS.

You agreed to forward her emails and phone messages. However, that means you are reading his emails and listening to his phone messages. Not exactly NO CONTACT.

At some point, being a third party to their marriage has got to stop.

The drama MAY make it all MORE difficult to actually maintain NO CONTACT FOR LIFE which is what this situation calls for the most.

Now..the BS is your victim and she should get to call ALL the shots but you can say: "I can't provide you any more information because I have changed all my phone numbers and emails...I've got nothing more. I hope we can wrap this up, again I am sorry and I will do anything to make up for what I've done but don't you think our continued contact is unhealthy also???"

I don't know...cross that bridge when we get to it.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks Ark. I think that is the thing that has bothered me most in this situation. The MM and me both having knowledge his BS didn't have. She let me know it, too. Boy, did she. I think that is the thing that bothered her more than anything else in this situation - that we knew and she didn't. I learned a lot from that.

MrW - I understand your mistrust. I may be misguided or mislead at times, but I assure you my word is my word, and I will live up to everything I told BS I would do. Not because that is the nice thing to promise, or the nice thing to say, but because it is the right thing to do. Not all of us are hopeless liars.

I do thank you, MrW. You've taught me much.

Noelle - you did exceedingly well. For what it's worth, I'm proud of the way you handled her call AND your own emotions and reactions.

I guess the only thing that I would have added might have been a suggestion to her to perhaps visit here for some support from a lot of folks who have been through similar circumstances.

"Ya done good, girl."

As an attorney...this is one of the nicest things a doctor has ever said to me.

I'm speechless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

W

MrW - I figured out a way to forward his email messages to his BS without my having to read them at all. Using my office assistant, I can define that all his messages be forwarded to her email account and deleted from mine without me having to see them at all. My cell number will be different within a day or two. His calls to my office I cannot do much about, except not answer them.

If BS continues to call me, I don't know what to do other than come back here and ask for opinions. I'm with you - I don't think it's a good idea for me to be involved with either one of them.

Noelle,

You did great. Espicially the part about not defending yourself because you really do know that there is no defense for your involvement in this. That is hard for most people to admit but you did. I agree with others that no contact with either from here on would be great.

Learn from this and grow.

MrW - As a doctor I do not believe an attorney has ever said a nice thing to me! Most of what they say is pretty darn scary in fact.

I defer to your expertise in this area though....just don't argue malpractice with me! We'd need our own separate board for that.

Seriously though, you have helped me in this relationship area, and I thank you.

Noelle --
I respect your willingness to accept her anger.

I hope somewhere in here you recognize that OM did not tell you the whole truth. That woman sounds far from one who knew the whole story and didn't care....
And was probably not the monster he portrayed her to be...

He's the monster. And you are well rid of him.

FH - Thank you for hanging in here with me. I was seriously distraught about your opinion of me. You had a lot of valid points though, and it stung me somewhat. I think though, that I needed to hear it. Painful as it was. I have faults - plenty of them. But I'm really trying to do the right things, and that is why I'm here.

Thank you for the 2x4. I needed it.

Lexxxy - I know, and I agree with you. When talking with her, I kept my opinion of him to myself though. I'm thankful I'm rid of him. I saw the monster he was when I witnessed what he was doing to her. She evidently still wants him, though. When she was venting and ranting she talked about how many times he had "done this" to her even while dating. And I suddenly understood her scorching exposure of him last year. It wasn't irrational at all. She was fed up.

I don't blame her.

Noelle,

I'm glad to see you came back....and like the others....I think you did well. Obviously, you won't get any medals around here, but I am greatly encouraged by your resolve and honesty to his wife. I think it's good that you were able to understand her previous exposure. Waywards are notorious self-serving liars who paint themselves as the victims and use sympathy to manipulate people. He played you, just like he played his wife. With your life and profession....you'll undoubtedly run accross more players....and perhaps be better prepared next time. Find someone who is emotionally available to you....even if you don't want a family....you'll do no harm to another family. I'm glad this guy's wife is no shrinking violet....but the next guy could have little children....shucks...we see guys in affairs whose wives are pregnant. Take the high road from now on....you won't be sorry. Good Luck.

I'd like to belatedly chime in as well. Totally agree with MrW.

No 2 X 4 from me. You did awesomly well.

God Bless.

Noelle ~

I just read this thread for the first time. Wow, wow, wow, is all I can say about your conversation with BW. Your answers and reactions were right on.

Many of us BSs would pay a lot of money to know or hear that the OP is sorry and remorseful for what they've done. You cannot imagine the pain a BS goes through when betrayed like this. Some of her "hatred" for you had to have softened some in that conversation ~ you were truthful, sorry and honest. That goes a long ways in healing for the BS. Last I heard, the OW in my case was still justifying and making me out to be the demon that I am not. Her fog was still very thick and that is not an easy thing to live with. She's had affairs with other MM before my H, and she'll do it again. That makes me sick.

Sounds like you have learned your lesson and you will not go down that road again. One less OP in the world to break up a M....good for you.

MF,

I would like to point out that this OW is not completely sorry and remorseful...YET. I/we have commended her for doing a great job and "acting" remorseful, honest, apologetic, contrite in her phone call with the BW...HOWEVER, it wasn't natural for her.

She WANTED to rationalize.
She WANTED to justify.
She WANTED to blame shift.

But didn't.

She applied logic, sought out advice on the internet and utilized what she had learned to make a logical choice to behave appropriately. She used her brain.

The "feelings" of sorriness, repentence, remorse will follow her such behavior.

Remember...feelings follow action.

Right now...Noelle feelings still conflict a little with her logic. She could easily backslide if she is not diligent with her actions consistent with her words.

Just like we tell the BS around here with active WS's...DON'T listen to what they say...watch what they do.

I'm very hopeful for Noelle...trusting, not so much...yet (I will reiterate...I still believe this could all be a OW and/or troll ruse)

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W ~



Agreed. But to me, this is the important part:


It takes a big person to be able to sit there and listen to someone call you names, bash you and ream you a new one without defending or justifying or shifting blame. She GETS that it was wrong. Maybe she is still rationalizing in some ways, and/or not completely remorseful, but she's on her way. She is not talking fog talk like many/most(?) OP do.

And what is also impressive, to me at least, is that she doesn't even *really* understand the dynamics of a marriage, and what those marriage vows mean to the BS, and what they should have meant to the WS...she's never been married and doesn't think she ever will be. She doesn't *get* marriage. For all that she's doesn't *get*, she seems to be way more sympa/empathetic than so many OPs out there.

Think about all the OPs out there who ARE married, or WERE married (in my case) ~ they KNOW what marriage means, how sacred it is, the specialness that's involved, yet so many of them never come to the place where Noelle is in *getting* it. And they should, they live/d it!!!

Just my $.02 worth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Noelle, I started reading yesterday and finished today. I just wanted to say great job! I second what MF said about the BS. Being a BS myself this would have meant the world to me. I pray that you continue down the right road. Take Care