She's giving off strong indications that she wants to do it irregardless (snicker) of what we say and it MAY be the correct course of action. The MM may have led the BS to believe that Noelle was some stalking young intern he in no way had any relationship with. If so...the BS deserves the truth. Thus, I thought I'd give her some words/ideas on just how to start such email.

Still think, from what we know, and IF she can get MM to stop contacting her, that NO CONTACT for life is the way to go here...unless the BS contacts her again with questions.

Mr. Wondering

MrW are you going soft on exposure? The BS needs to know. Who else is going to do that?

Actually, to be honest, I'm amazed you would take the correct stance with LousyGolfer over this issue but yet recommend this BS be kept in the dark.

The BS already knows there was an OW while she and her husband were seperated, she called and told Noelle off.

I think Noelle is asking if she should tell the BS that her husband got back together with her out of malice, to exact revenge on her for exposing and (in his mind) causing damage to his career. The BS knows her husband has cheated on her twice in a short time frame, that isn't really the issue.

Noelle, if I were in the shoes of the BS in this situation, of course I would want to know that my husband got back together with me just to cause me harm. Trouble is, (if I were her) and you called me and told me that, I would think you were the one with malicious intentions. That is just a really difficult thing to believe coming from the OW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> .

To be honest, I don't really think there is much you can do. If the BS calls and asks for info I have no doubt you would tell her. By chance do you know any of her friends? Maybe you could tell someone she knows, so she could hear it from someone else. If he truly got back together with her out of malice, that is going to come out, probably sooner rather then later.

This in fact is the record provided of her conversation with BW.


BW needs to know the extent of the relationship and that her WS continues to try and establish contact.

Sio2 - our posts crossed.

I don't believe she should do anything other than clear up the nature of her relationship with WS. Anything else would be perceived as being vindictive for sure.

Noelle, I think I owe you a bit of an apology. I re-read your initial post and I believe that you wrote about TWO different couples that were involved with adultery.

This "2nd" couple is the one where the husband was involved with you as his OW, not the first couple. This 2nd Couple have no chilren "in the mix" and the WS husband appears to be a "high powered user" of people. I assume he is also the type who will walk all over anyone to get what HE wants.

Therefore, I retract my advice to just "go away," because you sound like, albeit a little late, that you now recognize your "role" in his choice to commit adultery.

Since there are no children involved and the wife of this 2nd couple is not the one you first described (willing to be a doormat to keep her husband and a 'family' for her children), coupled with the fact that he continues "pursue you," I would recommend that you send the wife a copy of the No Contact email you sent the husband, a description of the length and nature(EA/PA) of his affair with you, and a brief description of his stated reasons for "going back to her." Keep your information factual and as emotionless as possible and let her know that you have learned about affairs and their destructiveness to all affected by them through this site and that you apologize to her and are removing yourself from all contact with her husband. Leave the door open that if SHE decides she wants any more information she can contact you.

Give her this site information so that she can have some support if she should choose to stay and try to turn things around, because her husband is NOT out of his "Fog" and not able to make any rational decisions concerning his marriage at this point.

Do not address your feelings that she did anything wrong in exposing him to the former employer because, right or wrong, her action was grounded in what we now see is a totally self-absorbed user of women to get what he wants, just as you now believe she needs to know what he is like(which was probably very similiar to the thoughts that went through her mind prior to choosing to expose him to his workplace "for the good of others").

Can this man change? Yes, we can all change. But given what little we know of the total situation I'd have to think that he has no reason to change and put someone else's needs ahead of his own. He "needs" you, so he continues to pursue you. He "needs" a job that affords him income to "do what he wants to do." He probably enjoys "power" over other people too. He "needs" his wife ONLY because she is in a position to help him get what he wants.

The wife did "owe him" in the sense that she seems to have recognized that her previous actions were driven by "personal desire to let him feel some of the pain" she was feeling as a result of his adultery. That's also how a lot of "revenge affairs" happen. Part of repentance is to try to make whatever "restitution" you can for the harm you have caused. She is doing that. But as all around here will tell you, NOTHING a Betrayed Spouse does will "register" with a WS who is still involved in an affair. And in his mind he is still involved with you and is pushing for a lifetime commitment from you even though his wife seems willing to try to honor her lifetime commitment to him regardless of his current "alien mindset."

Good luck with your career and your next assignment.

Noelle,

I've thought about this one....and I'll probably have to pick BK's jaw off the floor....but I agree with him and I'm going to change my stance....despite my misgivings about your motives. (bk...your repost about him continuing to call her was helpful). If this guy is still calling....the harm is ongoing and needs to stop. Make your exposure limited to the facts about your affair and his continued contact, your apology for intruding....as well as your promise not to accept any future contact from him. The rest of it is just drama.

I'm not soft on exposure just really hesitant to give my "stamp of approval" to an OW. Telling her go ahead is tantamount to giving her carte blanche. I MAY change my mind ONLY IF I see the words Noelle intends to use.

In my Postscript way above I indicated that the continuing contact represented a problem for me. I wasn't completely taking both sides of the issue...I just did a bit of re-reading and considered how Noelle and the marriage moves on with MM continuing to contact her. Therefore, I tried to give her some words.

Noelle is pissed and hurt. MM used her. It sounds like he wants to continue using her. She's perfect for him, he's got money and the ability to travel whereever Noelle ends up for NONCOMMITTED companionship and sexual liasons. MM thinks she's the jackpot. He can stay married AND have his cake. The whole "I'm just gonna use my wife for a year to improve my career and then we can be together" is a HUGE load of crap. If it was actually said; it's only typical fantasy wayward manipulation....to keep Noelle on the line or unhurt by his actions.

Then Noelle gets a FU call from BW. Not a "Who are you" but a FU. BW knows. You don't say FU to random people you call off a phone bill. From Noelle standpoint, imagaine the audacity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, being treated as a common wh*re <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> when the BW was the one that abandoned him and exposed his prior affair to all his co-workers and ruined his career. She's a DOCTOR, for pete's sake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> The pinnacle of often entitled professionalss. To Noelle, if BW had just stuck around and not given the appearance the marriage was over..she NEVER would have been involved with him. He was just a meaningless recretional companion...nothing that serious. Remember, she NEVER got wrapped up emotionally in the relationship as she so painstakingly wrote above.

I just don't buy it. She left out the whole Dr. part just to maintain a seeming trump card in case she was attacked as being a heartless, soulless, common OW. My gosh, she cures the sick with her hands and lives in tents with flies. She's so great. Much better then every OW we've seen around here before. Same crap ALL OW think. I'm special...listen to my side and if I say it eloquently enough it just might make it true. I can only imagine what I think she planned on writing to the BW. She perhaps doesn't want to wait an entire year for MM...so exposure may just speed it up.

Thus...I won't approve of it UNTIL I see it. I don't even have to live in Missouri to say "SHOW ME". Referring her to MB is not advisable (BW's don't want marital advice from the OW plus the OW has posted here). Mentioning that MM told her he intended to use his wife for a year and then come to her is also not advisable (unless HIS emails to her that she forwards state such). NOELLE supposedly won't be around in a year anyway (she's says she's done with the relationship) so this opportunity no longer exists...a typical affair fantasy lost in the wind of reality.

Mr. Wondering

Mr.W,

I'm not even sure we'll see Noelle again....much less get an idea of her exposure style....could be a postby shooting yanno? From the beginning, I haven't had a good feeling about sincerity or desire to protect the BS in this situation. There is a certain hedonistic quality about this chosen lifestyle that makes me question the capacity for real compassion or honesty in a life so self serving. Time will tell....she'll return or not....but like you....I'll believe it when I see it.

Dunno Star - she posted 2 days running - she may post in 6 hours or so.

I am picking my jaw up LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MrW - I know you are not soft on exposure - it was a cheap shot. Sorry.

No worries my friend

I'm still here. In fact, I intended to post this morning that I was giving myself some time to think through my thoughts and motives in regards to MM and his BS. MrW's post about suspecting my motives in telling the BS (ie she would kick him to the curb and he'd come back to me) was ironic in that his post helped me understand one of the main reasons I HADN'T told her. I'm was afraid if I did, not only might she have come after me, *he* might have wound up back on my doorstep. I've thought long and hard about that possible event, even before I posted on this board, and I am certain beyond doubt that I do not want this individual in my life - under any circumstances. I was leaning towards walking away from this experience, learning from it, and avoiding any repeat in the future.

BS removed that option this afternoon. I received a call from WS's country code and presuming it was him, let it go to voice mail. It was instead, her. She left a number and asked me to return her call. She said it was important, and she did not care what time I called her back. I admit I took a walk before I called her, not to make her wait, but to muster the b*lls to dial the phone.

She answered immediately and stated she presumed I knew why she was calling. I acknowledged I had a good idea why she was calling, but I preferred to let her lead the conversation. She asked me if I was still seeing her husband. I said no. She asked who broke it off. I told her I did. She asked why. I told her it was wrong for me to have been involved with him in the first place, and that I'd figured that out. She asked if I love him. I told her no. She asked if he loves me. I told no. She asked if he told me he loved me. I told her yes. She asked me when I started sleeping with him. I told her. She asked if I knew he was married. I said yes. I was fully expecting her to dress me down for that, but she was just quiet for a while. She asked me a series of questions about dates and times and vacations, and I got the impression she was methodically working out a timeline of how our affair intersected her life. She started asking such detailed questions about times and events, that I finally pulled out my dayplanner because I couldn't remember the details she was asking about. She was surprisingly calm throughout all this, but did makes comments about "that M-Fer, that bas****," and so on. I didn't agree or disagree, I just answered her questions. She eventually seemed satisfied about the events that occured while he was still here, and started asking about what was going on now.

I told her that I had broken off contact with him when she called me several weeks ago and that I had not called or emailed him since that time. She asked if he still called or emailed me. I told her yes, he has continued to leave me voicemails and send me emails. She asked me if I still had them. I told her yes, I did. She asked if I would forward the emails to her. I did that while she was still on the phone with me. There were a lot of them. Some were about me being the love of his life, and he'd do anything for me, and begging me to please answer him. Some were about what he was doing to her and his justifications for it. I spent a lot of time just being quiet. After reading through all that, she blew up. At him, at me, at men in general. She yelled at me that I must be some kind of selfish, f-ing, c-word to have f***ed her over like this. I told her I was sorry I had intruded on her marriage, I was sorry I had caused her pain, and told her there was no excuse for what I'd done. She attacked me saying, "If you're so f*cking sorry about it, why didn't you tell me what the [censored] he was doing? That b*astard is living in my house, f*cking me over. Don't sit there and tell me how f*cking sorry you are." I think I heard, "Selfish f*cking ******" at least 5 times. I stared at the wall, listening to her, not knowing what on earth to say. I kept wanting to defend myself, but thankfully managed to avoid going down that road. A few weeks ago, I would have.

She finally stopped yelling at me, then apologized. I told her she had nothing to apologize for. She asked me if I still had the voicemails. I told her I still had some of them. I'd been deleting a lot of the recent ones without listening to them, but there were still a few on my phone. She asked if she could hear them. I told her they were on my cell so I'd have to call her back on a landline if she wanted to hear them. She said yes, so I hung up and called her from my office phone. I put my cell on speaker and let her listen to the voicemails. 2 of them were from today, ironically time stamped during the time I was talking to her. She vented for a while after that and then asked me if I was going to call him back. I told her no. She asked if I would play the messages back again so she could record them. I did.

She told me she was exhausted, that she couldn't take any more of his sh*t, and demanded to know what my intentions were. I told her that when I told him not to contact me anymore, I meant it, and that I have no intention to answer him. I told her I'm changing my cell number (which I was in the process of doing before she called me) and that in 3 months I would no longer be here and he wouldn't have access to my work email either. He'd really have no way to contact me then. She asked me if I would be willing to forward to her any future messages from him. I said yes.

The end of the conversation was awkward. I assured her I would send any further email contact to her, and that I would answer whatever questions she had to the best of my ability. I apologized to her again, acknowledged I was wrong for everything I'd done, and tried to assure her I was absolutely, completely done with her WS. Even as I was saying it though, and meaning it, I thought, "Oh yeah, Noelle, what the ****** is your word worth to this woman?"

I know I was completely unprepared for that conversation and I should have gotten some direction before I called her back. I know I'm going to get some 2x4s from some of you because of the way I handled this, but I did the best I could. I did whatever she asked me to do. I know I screwed it up somehow because I left that conversation feeling like I should have done something more somehow. I'm also feeling pretty selfish at this moment because I sat around and did nothing until she called me and forced my hand. She let me know it, too.

Go ahead, beat me up. I assure you none of you could top her in making me feel like ******.

In my opinion you did well.

one of the greatest evils in my opinion is the absence of knowledge that a BS experiences...

the active denial by two people the WS and the OP .witholding information needed by a BS to make informed decisions...

it has to be so horrible to be in the dark why others willfully hold back information vital to ones

emotional
physical
and
financial well being....

I hope peace finds you soon...and you can strengthen yourself to never ever be in such a situation again...

here's the other thing...we know that people are predictable..

this guy continues to contact you after the ending...
lets just assume that he probably kept contacting his first OW (emotional affair) long after the ending..
then fed you the crap about no contact...just like he feeds his wife..

ARK

Your word might not mean much to her today...but your actions from here on out will.

LIVE up to your word.

No "closure" needed...there is absolutely no reason to disect and analyze bullcrap.

Move on and proceed with your life having learned a valuable lesson.

Find yourself a single available man....worthy of your company.

It appears you did pretty good today. If this whole story is factual and you are not a troll I commend you for posting and learning.

Mr. Wondering

BTW, do not try to befriend and involve yourself too much with "HELPING" the BS.

You agreed to forward her emails and phone messages. However, that means you are reading his emails and listening to his phone messages. Not exactly NO CONTACT.

At some point, being a third party to their marriage has got to stop.

The drama MAY make it all MORE difficult to actually maintain NO CONTACT FOR LIFE which is what this situation calls for the most.

Now..the BS is your victim and she should get to call ALL the shots but you can say: "I can't provide you any more information because I have changed all my phone numbers and emails...I've got nothing more. I hope we can wrap this up, again I am sorry and I will do anything to make up for what I've done but don't you think our continued contact is unhealthy also???"

I don't know...cross that bridge when we get to it.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks Ark. I think that is the thing that has bothered me most in this situation. The MM and me both having knowledge his BS didn't have. She let me know it, too. Boy, did she. I think that is the thing that bothered her more than anything else in this situation - that we knew and she didn't. I learned a lot from that.

MrW - I understand your mistrust. I may be misguided or mislead at times, but I assure you my word is my word, and I will live up to everything I told BS I would do. Not because that is the nice thing to promise, or the nice thing to say, but because it is the right thing to do. Not all of us are hopeless liars.

I do thank you, MrW. You've taught me much.

Noelle - you did exceedingly well. For what it's worth, I'm proud of the way you handled her call AND your own emotions and reactions.

I guess the only thing that I would have added might have been a suggestion to her to perhaps visit here for some support from a lot of folks who have been through similar circumstances.

"Ya done good, girl."

As an attorney...this is one of the nicest things a doctor has ever said to me.

I'm speechless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

W

MrW - I figured out a way to forward his email messages to his BS without my having to read them at all. Using my office assistant, I can define that all his messages be forwarded to her email account and deleted from mine without me having to see them at all. My cell number will be different within a day or two. His calls to my office I cannot do much about, except not answer them.

If BS continues to call me, I don't know what to do other than come back here and ask for opinions. I'm with you - I don't think it's a good idea for me to be involved with either one of them.