OK, been reading alot here lately and have been reading of some false recoveries and of advice to "reup" plan A or go Plan B. I am wondering at what point does one consider a Wayward a repeat offender?

I am confused by the almost ignorance of repeat offenders when giving advice to a Betrayed Spouse to Plan A or go Plan B or get counseling....especially when there is OBVIOUS continued unfaithfulness. It bothers me to no end to see Betrayed Spouses getting advice to meet more needs when the WS is continuing to cheat......and is a REPEAT offender. I think I must be the only one here who believes in the ONE SECOND chance method. Waywards are almost given carte blanche freedom to continue cheating based on some advice here.

Is a false recovery NOT really considered a repeat offense because the Wayward is under the umbrella of the initial "addiction" offense? I see time frames of 3-6 months of Plan A followed by TWO YEARS of Plan B?????? In what time frame does a Wayward meet criteria for repeat offender status? If his/her (WS) needs are not met by the BS, does the clock reset? I think there are FAR more repeat offender Waywards here than we publicly acknowledge (or want to acknowlege)....I am confuder when I read on the official site that the affair is driven by needs not being met.....but what about false recoveries and repeat offenses........lets throw some time frames on here, it might be helpful. I have been reading too much again here lately and find myself shaking my head with some advice......gotta relax I guess.

LM

LM,

My WH has been in and out of the house, and this has been going on for 2 years. My DS is suffering. I don't know what to do BUT Plan B at this point.

Are you asking when the BS should be advised to give up, or are you asking what type of a advise to give to the BS dealing with a repeat offender?

There has been some discussion among us Plan Ber's about he fact that NO ONE comments on our sitch's. Well, not nobody, but not many, barring maybe Mimi, believer and FaitfulWifeCJ.

What would you like to say, by all means, say it. Many of us have been looking for opinions, but we get squat. Without guidance directly from the Harleys, we listen to peeps on this forum.

Repeat offender to me means:

2 separate OP's distinct times in the marriage

or

a rekindling with the original OP after the addiction has been broken and full repentence has been accomplished/obtained.

Problem is the full repentence part. That takes MONTHS. It is longer than the mere withdrawal period.

I even think a 2nd OP during withdrawal period (say OM1 dumps WW...and in remorse and defiance she takes up with OM2...to me, OM2 is part of the same wayward addiction mindset and doesn't necessarily make WW a serial cheater).

Not my call on how long someone can take it. If they show up here seeking advice I pretty much presume they want to try. To me...Plan D is a natural result and serious conclusion which a BS pretty much comes to on their own.
Plan A, then Plan B...process them to that point.

Mr. Wondering

Think I gotta agree Lem. If ther were to be a second offence, in light of the pain I went through the first time, I can honestly say that would be the deal breaker for me.

Two years????? Icouldn't do two months, but I'm weak, so do go by my standard. I admire folks who can stick it out that long. I know I don't have that in me. Life would have changed for me forever at that point.

Good to see you back Lem, If it weren't for a few opposing views, this place would be a cult. You lend balance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I feel like my WH had the wayward mindset even when home. He was never anywhere CLOSE to remorseful. He was dumped by OW very suddenly, and just after he left his own family to be with her.

I guess I hear mutterings of people saying things like you've done all you can, you can D now or something similar. On the rare occasion, someone has taken the time to directly address my sitch and the guidance I've always gotten is to stick to Plan B, and that some affairs take 2 years or more to break up.

I, personally, don't think I can go two years in this sh!te, but I can for some time, in the hopes that my son's father will come back to him and be bottomed out enough to also WANT me again.

Right now, not much of what I do has to do with undying love, so much as a want for stability for us all, first, with love and respect.

I think MEDC has a good approach sometimes, albeit harsh, but he calls it like HE sees it. Not necessarily MB, but REAL LIFE. Most of what is taught here is counterintuitive, so i think MANY of us are trying to figure out when to say when.

In my observation most "repeats" via false recovery aren't truly repeats...more like never stopped in the first places.

The conditions or requirements for reconciliation are 100% the BS prerogative and domain.

Usually a BS welcomes a STILL wayward HOPING that they are not because they WANT them to come back.

Chaos and disillusionment ensues.

The problem wasn't a reoffense so much as BS fog and denial.

Noodle, that was what happened with me, more the first time. I had no boundaries, I had not read any books or even known about MB, so, I twisted in the wind.

This time around, I feel much stronger, and more knowledgable BECAUSE I did find MB, and I have worked the Plans.

Noodle, you posted exactly how I feel about WH.

Yeah, lem...take a chill pill! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Heehee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking FOR or asking about, but let me take a stab at this.

It is my understanding that as a "rule of thumb" Dr. Harley recommends that a BH try to Plan A for a max of 6 months...and a BW for 3 months. This is a rule of thumb only, and I think generally means that Plan A should not go on and on for years, but there should be at least a season of consistent effort to demonstrate change and ability to grow to the WS.

Next, it is my understanding that as a "rule of thumb" Dr. Harley thinks that most/the majority of As fizzle out within two years. That is to say, if both WS and BS are relatively mentally and emotionally healthy...if they had a fairly good marriage before the A...if it goes according to the average "textbook", then the A is likely to end within two years. Thus, if a BS has the strength, endurance and patience to wait for 1 1/2 years in Plan B, that mathematically the likelihood is that the A will have ended.

It is my understanding that if the BS or WS is mentally ill or has an addictive personality (drug addiction, alcoholic, etc.) that this skews the likelihood of the A ending. For example, if the WS is also an alcoholic and is not in recovery for his/her alcoholism, then the A may last years or never end at all.

Next, it is my understanding that people can see false recovery two ways. One way to see it is as one, continuing A--that what the BS thought was recovery was actually just driving the same, original A deeper underground and probably making it more of a LTA. The other way to see it is as two, separate and distinct As. In my personal opinion, a person is a serial cheater if that person has different sexual and emotional relationships with several different members of the opposite or same sex. For example, my exH had differing levels of emotional and physical and cyber affairs with several different women: "making out" with some waitresses, having sex with some managers, wining and dining and wooing several OW to take them to a hotel room, some email sex, some cybersex (with cameras), some phone sex, some sex with prostitutes. See?? Several women--several levels of attachment--several As. HE was a serial cheater!!! Now, a WS who has one OP and tells their BS that they want to reconcile but never bothers with NC -- that is all one A (in my mind) and would not particularly qualify as a serial cheater. If there was an A with OW#1 and real NC was established and real recovery entered...and then years later WS hooked up with OW#1 again--I would call THAT serial cheating!!! But that JMHO!!!

Finally and in conclusion, I think you are sort of asking, "When is enough, enough? How long do some of these poor BS's have to hold out hope? This is ridiculous!" Lem, bear in mind that the advice given here is often given by folks who are themselves right in the middle of their own affair drama. Many/most have received no kind of training in counseling or coaching, and many/most have not even yet gotten all the way through their own A and gotten "to the other side" where they are "recovered." Quite often, once someone recovers from the A--either through reconciling or divorcing--they leave this site and live their life! So many/most do not have the wisdom of having seen an A play out over and over and over again. Just take some of the advice you see with a grain of salt!!!

IMHO, if a person goes into Plan B and really detaches from their WS--if they put into effect some basic legal protections and just live their life peacefully--there is no reason that they couldn't wait up to two years (here it comes) IF THE BS WANTED TO. Personally, I think there comes a point at which the BS either recognizes that the WS is not going to do the kind of personal growth that is required to reconcile the marriage (in which case the BS is ready to move on) -OR- the BS begins to personally grow THEMSELVES until the day comes that they are ready to see that it's time to move on (until that day, they aren't ready yet) -OR- the BS begins to see signs of actual change in the WS and is willing to wait and see how that personal growth might work out. Frankly, for some that is a bit of a long-shot (waiting and seeing how it works out) but I personally think that if someone is willing to wait, I don't see that it hurts them to do so--as long as they're practicing healthy detachment!

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...does that answer your question?

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Lem, just to set the record straight, Dr. Harley does not recommend that ANYONE stay in an adulterous marriage. But if they are GOING TO STAY, he gives them recommendations. Dr. Harley has said that HE HIMSELF would DIVORCE JOYCE if she had an affair.

For me, I would never do Plan A or Plan B. If there was a repeat offense, he would be kicked to the curb so fast he wouldn't know what hit him.

Staying in such a marriage and doing these plans is entirely an INDIVIDUAL decision that should be based on that person's level of willingness and endurance. No one is encouraged to stay, but they are supported if they decide to do so.

I have heard on mulitple occassions that Dr. Harley would D his wife if she cheated. Well, it's heresay until that day comes, because I said the same thing. Yes, he's knowledgable on this subject and knows how to ATTEMPT to make it work, but NEVER SAY NEVER.

Now, there really is no right answer, if you ask me. Believe me, my gut tells me to kick this H of mine to the curb and not to look back. I'm embarassed to know him, as he is right now. WH is an embarassment. I struggle with what to do, as not many that I talk with have the same sitch.

OW#1 dropped my WH like hot cake, and went back to her M, didn't speak to him again. HE was still very much Wayward when I gave him an ultimatum to either come home or leave. He came home and we floundered, due to his wayward fueled entitlement. He never committed to anything, we got no help and made no steps to recovery. I kicked him out AGAIN, after 3 months of Plan A (after finding MB). I started a terrible Plan B, my WH wanted to try again in September of '06, so I gave it a try. We went out together here and there, we discussed how we should approach things differntly, get help, etc. HE turned cold and said that he had met someone that he was interested in. I said I'm out, and went to true Plan B with intermediary.

WH sent me a letter stating how he wanted to have a great marriage with me and wanted to talk, so I broke Plan B and talked, and then he SAID he was committed to MB and recovery; his actions did not follow, so back to Plan B.

So many of you think that I should just be done with this? I really am asking. I have heard of many stories where people survived MUCH WORSE than my sitch USING MB; people with multiple A's, children from the A, other addictions, etc. I wonder where we are supposed to draw the line.

Sorry for the long post, but I think about this nearly every day. On one hand, there are people who say that you should do planB, and once you have found peace, then think about things. Well, that doesn't really work, because we have NO idea WHAT to think.

The longer we are on our own, the longer we will drift away from the M. It's natural. I guess it gets confusing when one set of people advocate such and such and another set feels differently.

I also wonder where Lemonman is, as he began the thread and then disappeared. Again, we could all use the support and would love to hear your take on things.

CJ, I think what you are saying is how I view my sitch. I have to decide when to give up. I will be the one to file for D, as I truly believe that WH wants to come home, but doesn't want to deal with the pain, work and disappointment. Much easier for him to move on and see his son now and then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

For the record the above is NOT what occured in our case and is only Mr. W's observations about OTHERS...

I KNOW that if there were to be ANY other offense on my part that that would be IT...FINITO...I respect that and wouldn't expect it to be any other way...

Mine was a lesson hard learned...My boundaries are iron clad now...I'm will not be recidivist, of that I am sure...

Mrs. W

SL, here is the thing about Dr. Harley's claim. [that he makes quite often] Who is in the best postion to know his mind? You or him? You may have changed your mind, but you can't ascribe your OWN actions to HIM. He is the only one who is in a credible position to accurately predict the future, because he knows himself THE BEST. None of us can credibly contradict him, because he knows his mind better than any of us.

Along the same lines, I will state, without hesitation, that if my H had another affair, our marriage would be over. There would be no 3rd chance. I know myself well enough, and better than anyone here, to make that statement with full confidence.

Point taken Melody. Dr. Harley is probably much more healthy spiritually and emotionally than I. I wasn't claiming that I KNEW anyone's mind, just that we say many things, but when the poo hits the fan, we may ACT differently.

Again, the Harley's are much more versed on infidelity. I guess I wonder why Dr. Harley wouldn't attempt to save his M.

Many people just are not interested, SL. Many folks do make a choice to just move on. For me, I lost so much respect for my H when he had his affair, that I fell out of love. I felt nothing but disgust and revulsion so it is really a miracle that I could take him back. I would not be interested in doing it again.

I also know that I don't have the personality for Plan A or Plan B so that would never be an option for me. Dr. Harley must know something similar about himself which is why he so emphatically states that he would divorce Joyce.

Because he and Joyce have all the knowledge and skills of MB, and are dedicated to meeting each others needs.
Their plan does not allow for the vulnerabilities we often let creep into a marriage.

So therefore, having fully implementing the MB program -- Dr. Harley knows that an affair would mean something more than unmet needs and he would be unable to fix that.
He and Joyce live in constant Plan A.

It makes sense. There are times when I just don't want him anymore. The pain outweighs the 'chance' that we could have. It's not just me, either, it's our child, struggling in this, and it is like watching a train wreck in slo-mo. I am fairly sure that I would not to through this if I remarried. My boundaries would be clear from day 1.

I don't think my upbringing helped me much, in the boundaries department.

sl, I don't know if you have boundary issues, I don't know your situation, but I will state that I DO NOT think all folks who try to save their marriages here have boundary issues. Some have GREAT boundaries and bookoo courage and strategically work this plan with great success. It doesn't always work out, but there is no shame in trying! NONE AT ALL!!

And then on the other hand, we always have a handful of professional conflict avoiders who use the plans as an excuse to avoid conflict. They make plan A a way of life. They are the ones who give it a bad name. And we always have a few around here, unfortunately.

I don't see how anyone could survive a long term TRUE Plan A. It's excruciating to do. I have seen some BS's sit in fear in what they claim is Plan A. I usually am one to give them a nudge toward PlanB.

That kind of PlanA is a doormat kind of plan.

Lemmonman,

I guess I may be one of the BS you are talking about. I would say that my WH falls under the catorgory of serial cheater. He had affiars with 2 different women several years apart.

It's funny I always said I would not stay in a M if my H cheated. The n he did and I looked at my kids and all we had built together. Then I said I would never let him put me through this again. Well he cheated again and this time he had SF with her. And here I am still wanting to save my M.

Believe me I thought I would never allow this to happen again. And I'm seriously considering if he is worth risking my heart for again. Even my DD's don't want me to take him back, they just think he would do iy again. I wonder if he does want to come back and I allow it will he think it's a free pass to do this again? And next time I will be older.

If my WH is willing to become the man he was and shows remorse and is willing to do anything to recover his family then I will consider it. I don't see that as happening anytime soon.

Do I still love him... yes but I love the man he was. And only God knows if he is still there. I do pray every night for God to open his eyes, it'll be done in God's time.

Tonight I feel that I deserve no less than a man who loves me and wants to be with me. No more crumbs... that is for the birds. I deserve more... and I hope my WH will become H and step to the plate.

Still

I AGREE WITH THIS!!

I do not consider my H a REPEAT OFFENDER although there was more than one FALSE RECOVERY.

He wasn't ready to end his ONE AFFAIR...because of his ADDICTION..he had not hit his BOTTOM..PLAN B was necessary...

I believe in not judging others..in accepting individual differences..in NOT EXPECTING OTHERS to be like me...

NOT CONSIDERING A DIFFERENCE AS BEING INDICATIVE OF PATHOLOGY!!!

Mr W:

I think you hit the nail on the head.....if I was a WS, I would certainly appreciate the liberal "addiction mindset" window for affairs that you believe. I happen to think that the authors of this great web site think the same. I see that I am likely in the very small minority who disagrees with this assettion....that's ok. Thanks for weighing on.

LM

This is the exact kind of statement that I can NOT understand. I thought Plan A was a specific PLAN with a SHORT window of time to essentially allow a CHEATER to cakeeat while the BS endearing qualities are stressed and the envirnoment for reconciliation is laid.

"constant plan A"......Bulll Pooey....

LM

Lemon,

I don't know if you were refering to me when you started your thread. I just need to tell you it really hit me between the eye.

I know that your opinion doesn't always mesh with others... I just want to let you know it got me thinking. And there is nothing in this world that I would like better than to have my family whole... my H decided for all of us that his selfishness is more importnant.

I think my fog cleared a bit and realizing the first time could of been a woops but the second time wasn't.

Still

I would disagree that he and Joyce live in "constant Plan A." Plan A is a one sided initiative of extreme GIVING without recieving anything, something Dr. Harley warns AGAINST. This is why he says that Plan A should be very short lived. Extreme giving is an invitation to extreme TAKING, a recipe for DISASTER. Living in Plan A is BAD IDEA that he warns against.

I have never heard him explain WHY he would divorce Joyce, but he does say in one of his articles that he was SURPRISED to learn that some folks did want to salvage their marriages after an affair. His reaction to this discovery tells me that he would not be one of that crowd. And many simply are not. They would rather move on because they don't WANT to deal with it.

Still, for the record, there are no woopsies in my book.

I think lemonman has a valid point, but I don't think you can apply EVERYTHING from this website or how people advise to every sitch and every person.

I will find my way, as we all do, and have to, for that matter, but I will not give LESS support to those suffering from multiple A, as opposed to those suffering from one A, or a ONS, or LTA, or whatever.

My opinions change a lot, and I don't think my advise, beyond the practical things, should be construed as even close to fact. My opinions are how I choose to live MY life, according to MY expereince, beyond counselors and faith. You have to find your own way.

SL:

I am sorry I don't know very much about your case. I see that you are a woman in alot of pain, and you have my sincerest heartfelt best wishes.

I used to post on this site a few years ago, and while I don't agree with alot of the principles here, I do 100% believe this is one of the best (if not best) system to allow a couple to STAY TOGETHER after an infidelity epsisode.

As to what you are "supposed" to do....ONLY YOU can eventually decide what is right for you. Dr Harley and the rest of the professionals here are HUMAN....and are fallible and do NOT guarantee that if you do this Plan or that Plan, you will be successful....

My advice to you is to build up your life with friends, activities, family, hopes for a future that do NOT directly involve your chating spouse. You can NOT control one iota of what he is going to do. You can only contol you.

I am not saying give up hope, but it is MY OPINION that one put ACTION into reality and let HOPE stay around for the "in case".....you can't go wrong that way.

I used this site to build the best Lemonman I could. I am a better son, uncle, physician, friend, neighbor...etc..because of it. In the end, I did NOT save my marriage but I am BETTER for it (for the record, I made decisions to divorce before I even came here......I did give a second chance to my XWW by the way).....MY biggest gripe I guess, is the people who keep on accepting second rate behavior when they are 1st rate people.

Repeat offenders are those 2nd rate offenders I speak off. I have been a very very unpopular person on these forums, because my idea of a "second" chance is much different than the "second" chance that is lauded here to help people recover.

I have no specific advice for you regarding YOUR marriage except that I think you should NOT have an Sex with your WH untill he has been tested for HIV, and other diseases and after he has been absitinent for 6 months of sex with anyone. That is advice that you WON'T get from the professionals here, so I'd take at least that from my diatribe above.

best wishes.

LM

LM,

Thank you for your kind words. I, in no way believe that all M's that use these principles survive. I'm, also, not afraid of D, but would like to give it my all before going there.

I have gotten to a point where I have accepted that I do not control anything beyond myself (which has helped me with my son, a positive side effect)

I am building a life, without H/WH. I plan to live as best I can in this limbo stage. Having parties with friends, getting into my lovely garden and making it even more beautiful, making my son giggle, laugh, spit from laughter. I plan on sticking Plan b out until I KNOW what I want. If PlanB doesn't bring WH home, I'm sure I will hit a point where D is what *I* want.

Selfishly, I want to be in love again, I want to be wanted and I want to have companionship with a MAN again. Women are great, but friendship only does so much.

Be assured that my WH would have to be tested to sex me up. I have been tested, also. MEDC is pretty strong on the STD testing tip, but anyone reading this can hear that message loud and clear, so it's always good to post it.

My H had told me that his 1st wife cheated on him. Years later during his confession of infidelity in OUR marriage, he mentioned that he also had 2 affairs during his 1st marriage.

I consider him a repeat offender.

Hi Lemon ~ Well, you finally said something that I disagree with !! Truly, you don't believe this ~

We all love you

Lemonman,

I think you DO agree with much of what is on this site. In fact, I am always puzzled when you say this because from what I see, you did exactly what this site is about.

The purpose of this site as I understand it is to offer relationship tools not just to address infidelity but about marriage and its problems. From my reading Harley's approach was simply that many divorces probably did not need to occur IF people understood relationships and what it means to be a good partner in a relationship.

You, yourself, have decided that you wanted to improve yourself as you stated and did so after your divorce. I think that is to your credit and you should be proud.

I will tell you this. People that post here and state the want to save their marriages get what little advice I have to offer to do so. That does not mean that I agree with their decision, but it MUST be their decision. And really often people in what I feel to be lost marriages MUST come to this on their own and usually are "happier" if that is a good word for this because they KNOW they gave it their all. And then they did what you did and I would have probably recommended and moved on to hopefully a much more successful relationship.

Lemonman, I view this place sort of like medicine. It is not a science it is an art. People come to doctors with very serious illnesses, cancer for example, and in many cases the Doc KNOWS that the odds are very low. The Doc does not recommend suicide. The Doc does not recommend giving up. The Doc often offers courses of treatment that MIGHT cure the patient, but often leaves it up to the patient to make the decision to go for it or not.

This site is very much like this. If one is posting on a Marriagebuilders site and someone comes here asking for advice on saving their marrigae, we offer what we know. Is anything set in stone? Nope! Are their any guarentees? Nope.

Will some keep trying and trying, when others of us might have pack it in?? Yup. Will some give up without much effort or fight? Yup. It is their call.

I always follow this dictum which I made up to deal with extended family issues. "No one runs their life like I would run it for them." That particular saying has helped me in dealing with the many and varied personalities that exist in my family. It has worked for over 60 years.

I think this site offers tools and insights to make any of us better people, better in relationships romantic or not, and far more aware of relationship issues than we were. That is exactly why I am 'Just Learning'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hope life is treating your well Lemonman. I will say given the circumstances of your discoverying the second betrayal, I would have done exactly as you did. I liked you thinking then, and I enjoy it now.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Lemonman...how's the new relationship going?

I know you struggle with a lot of what goes on here.

I'm with JL in seeing you as someone who implemented Plan A/B/D pretty crisply and decisively. You gave the marriage a chance, then moved on. If you baulk at that, I think I'd lift a Spock eyebrow and say 'Fascinating'...

The journey from discovery to letting go was, for you, a fairly short one. Why was it short? Probably because your nature is to face facts and make decisions without sentiment, because you start from a basis of healthy self-esteem, and because your self-worth was based on things other than your marriage. Oh, and because you hadn't any children. Believe me, they add tons of complexity to the decision. (Note that most new BSs who don't have children are advised here to cut their losses and run.)

For lots of people, the journey from D-day to being ready to let go is a much longer one. Loads of people are trained, through childhood, adolescence and adulthood, that it's imperative they should be kind, gentle, accommodating, flexible, compassionate, faithful and honest as a marriage partner. These are all great things for a marriage,of course, but when they're the only tools you have in the box to recover from your spouse's infidelity, then you're a bit underequipped - can you see that? When your self-esteem is based almost entirely round others appreciating those 'good' qualities about you, then it's difficult to throw yourself into a campaign of boundary-setting, being the bad guy and enduring hate. When your training in decision-making has always been based on mutual agreement and making sure 'everyone'is reasonably satisfied, it's pretty much impossible to make decisions based on hard facts and the survival of the self. At first, anyway. It takes time to get there.

Some BSs don't have to...their WS's are equally shocked by the damage they've done and get back in line quickly. I guess those BSs don't come here so often? But a BS finding themselves with someone who continues to act out and damage the marriage has to find themselves some self-protective tools. And it takes a while for the mind to leave the 'I-am-good-and-loveable-only-if-I-please' mindset to a recognition that they are entitled to being treated with fairness and respect and that anything less is not worth having.

Some people gradually get there, and begin gathering the tools of self-protection. But some people can never let go of the old tools, and will struggle eternally to fix things using gentleness, kindness...etc. Which doesn't work, and they don't get it that they don't get it, as you say.


I think you get impatient with the slowness of people who have a long journey to travel to get to where you got to quickly.

That's why some will be helpless in the face of serial cheating. Finding that they're married to someone for whom infidelity is a basic coping skill, is way outside their own experience and ability to understand and cope. It can take a while for the mind to adapt to the shock and begin making new paths.

And in my experience, people who make 'tough' decisions before they're really able to comprehend what they're doing, tend to make bad, impulsive decisions, deal poorly with the outcome, and end up rushing back to apologise. It's better for them to give themselves time to get their head and heart in synch and make decisions they can stick with.

Even if it means the WS gets to [email]sh@g[/email] half the state in the meantime.

TA

Here's some advice that is handed out on Here routinely:

Just have the WS write a 10th No Contact Letter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That should take care of it and make it all better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

***********************
By the way Sour Dude,
its refreshing to have a counter point come along ....even if its not as often as it used to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
In the mean time,
Keep up those improvements!

This is GREAT..coming from LM....

I AGREE!!

I quote this because it SOOO WELL STATES A POINT that I have tried to express to you LM.

I understand well IF you do not want to open up a DISCUSSION with me BUT...

I want to stress my STRONG BELIEF in FREE WILL and how I consider it to be DISRESPECTFUL to assume that folks should look at the world and others the way that I do...

And I feel that I have the right to be RESPECTED for what I believe in and who I am...a PERSON who can BEAR more than many others..and on and on...IT'S ME... ME... THAT I HAVE GROWN TO LOVE MORE AND MORE SINCE COMING TO THIS SITE... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

x

eav,

To answer your question [not necessarily that I am saying this to YOU in your sitch] the reason why people sometimes question the motivations and seemingly obsessive pursuite of some BS in the face of serial adultery situations is this...

Sometimes the BS is AT LEAST as sick as the WS and a repeat serial offense situation suggests that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

x

This has been an interesting thread for me to read, since I recently became aware that my WH is a serial cheater. I had no idea until the last 2 weeks when someone shared that info with me. It reinforces some thoughts I have been having and also makes me question some other ones.

Thank you for this discussion...

IHC,

Just sending hugs your way because I know how difficult hearing that info is.

Still

IHC:

I am truly sorry that this discussion had to reinforce thoughts that are no doubt painful for you.

LM

Mimi:

I am well aware of the strong differecnes in opinion you and I have had in the past and fully respect your right and opinion to disagree with me. I think you take people's opinions that are contrary to anything directly interpreted by you as "marriage building support" as a personal attack.

I am being as honest as I can with you here. I am NOT talking to you in veiled language. I don't feel the need to disagree with you personally on a post. You feel the way you do, I feel the way I do....we can leave it at that. I think you take things personally when THEY have nothing to do with you...just my opinion

LM

Eav:

Don't know if you will read this (and truth be told, don't really care)...but I can 100% assure you that your situation was no where in my mind when I created this post. It has nothing to do with YOU (been there done that)....personally I think it is great that you get Dr Harley's support for contiuing to hope for you marriage.......you buy what you need.

This topic is/was NOT intneded for your eyes.

LM

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Gee Whiz...

I'll just say that I DID NOT FEEL PERSONALLY ATTACKED AND DID NOT THINK YOU WERE TALKING TO ME...

I was just giving my opinion about thoughts on your thread...and I just LOVED, LOVED, LOVED JL's POST...

WHATEVER...


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think actually that you DO buy what you need from the harleys or any coach...let me tell you why.

You call them...pay them...to give you what you WANT...and they work to help you get to that end.

So for example...if you said I want to negotiate my WS coming home..they would help you do that. They wouldn't fight for your dignity...or require remorse...or anything OTHER than what you asked for...which was to negotiate the terms under which they'd be willing to come back.

I have seen this happen more than once.

So then they are home under the terms as stated and the BS starts to feel dissatisfied...hey why no remorse or protection of my dignity?! ...they ask.

The short answer? That isn't what you stated the objective was.

So if you want support and to create every possible opportunity for the WS to return...well that's what you asked for and paid for...it should be what you get.

You have to be honest with yourself about what you want in order to ask the right questions and pay for the help you need.

Post deleted by XXXXXXXXXX

That isn't what I said eav..try to hear it without your defensive "everyone thinks my marriage is over" filter.

I said you ask them to coach you toward YOUR goal not what THEY think is your best option [because that's completely subjective and they are in no way qualified to determine that...you are paying for their coaching expertise not their personal opinion.

After all SH himself says he would divorce his wife in the event of an affair, nevertheless he will do his best to help you if you want to try.

You H has been gone 3 years.

LS's H has been in his A 3 yrs as well.

Very different tonality.

A lot of what people are basing their opinions on is your attitude and actions.

You tend to post as though your marriage WAS over but you haven't come to grips with it yet...that is the overall tone of your posts [what copmes to mind when ~I~ read them anyway] and it affects the feedback you get.

It sounds like that is the message you are getting at home as well.

I'm sure some of that attitude has to do with the input you are receiving...but I wonder does any of it have to do with the attitude you are sending out?

The HARLEYS are not just ANY COACH...they have their own UNIQUE STYLES...



I agree with this statement.



In MY EXPERIENCE, this statement, though, is PLAIN WRONG. It implies that the Harleys are UNCARING and INSENSITIVE to one's EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Steve Harley is absolutely one of the most caring and sensitive people that I have ever met and I don't think would ever DISREGARD A PERSON'S DIGNITY...

And for my H he definitely, specifically recommended for me to look for SURE SIGNS OF REMORSE!!!

Eav..can speak for herself..but having followed her situation closely, she has asked very specific and appropriate questions..not just asking for what she wanted...

To me, that's a HORRIBLE ASSUMPTION to make..in fact, erroneous assumptions are being made about the Harley coaching methods in general.
.

X

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Well your experience is first hand and mine third so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt RE harley uniqueness.

I have certainly observed and listened to that very prob described with others who are recovering [that remorse was not part of the deal..just negotiation for the end of the A] and that was the crux of the resentment issue. They were asked what the goal was..they said the goal was end the affair and get them home...yet no remorse was required and none given. Then they were resentfull..had to come to grips with the fact that their expectations were not in alignment with their stated goals.


Eav,

I haven't told you before that I thought it was a done deal and I'm not telling you that now...as a matter of fact I believe I told you that I would supprt your decision to wait 90 years if that's what you wanted to do.

My point is that you hire a coach to COACH you to your goal..not to extend that goal to where THEY would like to direct you or would choose themselves.

That would be a bad coach with serious control issues.

If you hired someone to help you lose weight that's what they are paid for...not to encourage you to do something else.

I think if you asked to be coached to pursue every possibility you will get a different answer than if you asked to be coached for resolution within X amount of time or within Y parameters.

You are in fact willing to go to the ends of the earth and that is what you communicate to your coach...that is how you will be coached and they will support you doing that.

So you are getting the support you paid for.

Where is the disagreement?

Eav - on what basis, given your H isn't in counselling your WH, does Jennifer make the statement? I know all affairs do eventually end (except when they don't) but why is Jennifer so adamant in your situation? You have had NC with WH for how long? His mistress is now divorced..... I am just asking OK?