Mr W:

I think you hit the nail on the head.....if I was a WS, I would certainly appreciate the liberal "addiction mindset" window for affairs that you believe. I happen to think that the authors of this great web site think the same. I see that I am likely in the very small minority who disagrees with this assettion....that's ok. Thanks for weighing on.

LM

This is the exact kind of statement that I can NOT understand. I thought Plan A was a specific PLAN with a SHORT window of time to essentially allow a CHEATER to cakeeat while the BS endearing qualities are stressed and the envirnoment for reconciliation is laid.

"constant plan A"......Bulll Pooey....

LM

Lemon,

I don't know if you were refering to me when you started your thread. I just need to tell you it really hit me between the eye.

I know that your opinion doesn't always mesh with others... I just want to let you know it got me thinking. And there is nothing in this world that I would like better than to have my family whole... my H decided for all of us that his selfishness is more importnant.

I think my fog cleared a bit and realizing the first time could of been a woops but the second time wasn't.

Still

I would disagree that he and Joyce live in "constant Plan A." Plan A is a one sided initiative of extreme GIVING without recieving anything, something Dr. Harley warns AGAINST. This is why he says that Plan A should be very short lived. Extreme giving is an invitation to extreme TAKING, a recipe for DISASTER. Living in Plan A is BAD IDEA that he warns against.

I have never heard him explain WHY he would divorce Joyce, but he does say in one of his articles that he was SURPRISED to learn that some folks did want to salvage their marriages after an affair. His reaction to this discovery tells me that he would not be one of that crowd. And many simply are not. They would rather move on because they don't WANT to deal with it.

Still, for the record, there are no woopsies in my book.

I think lemonman has a valid point, but I don't think you can apply EVERYTHING from this website or how people advise to every sitch and every person.

I will find my way, as we all do, and have to, for that matter, but I will not give LESS support to those suffering from multiple A, as opposed to those suffering from one A, or a ONS, or LTA, or whatever.

My opinions change a lot, and I don't think my advise, beyond the practical things, should be construed as even close to fact. My opinions are how I choose to live MY life, according to MY expereince, beyond counselors and faith. You have to find your own way.

SL:

I am sorry I don't know very much about your case. I see that you are a woman in alot of pain, and you have my sincerest heartfelt best wishes.

I used to post on this site a few years ago, and while I don't agree with alot of the principles here, I do 100% believe this is one of the best (if not best) system to allow a couple to STAY TOGETHER after an infidelity epsisode.

As to what you are "supposed" to do....ONLY YOU can eventually decide what is right for you. Dr Harley and the rest of the professionals here are HUMAN....and are fallible and do NOT guarantee that if you do this Plan or that Plan, you will be successful....

My advice to you is to build up your life with friends, activities, family, hopes for a future that do NOT directly involve your chating spouse. You can NOT control one iota of what he is going to do. You can only contol you.

I am not saying give up hope, but it is MY OPINION that one put ACTION into reality and let HOPE stay around for the "in case".....you can't go wrong that way.

I used this site to build the best Lemonman I could. I am a better son, uncle, physician, friend, neighbor...etc..because of it. In the end, I did NOT save my marriage but I am BETTER for it (for the record, I made decisions to divorce before I even came here......I did give a second chance to my XWW by the way).....MY biggest gripe I guess, is the people who keep on accepting second rate behavior when they are 1st rate people.

Repeat offenders are those 2nd rate offenders I speak off. I have been a very very unpopular person on these forums, because my idea of a "second" chance is much different than the "second" chance that is lauded here to help people recover.

I have no specific advice for you regarding YOUR marriage except that I think you should NOT have an Sex with your WH untill he has been tested for HIV, and other diseases and after he has been absitinent for 6 months of sex with anyone. That is advice that you WON'T get from the professionals here, so I'd take at least that from my diatribe above.

best wishes.

LM

LM,

Thank you for your kind words. I, in no way believe that all M's that use these principles survive. I'm, also, not afraid of D, but would like to give it my all before going there.

I have gotten to a point where I have accepted that I do not control anything beyond myself (which has helped me with my son, a positive side effect)

I am building a life, without H/WH. I plan to live as best I can in this limbo stage. Having parties with friends, getting into my lovely garden and making it even more beautiful, making my son giggle, laugh, spit from laughter. I plan on sticking Plan b out until I KNOW what I want. If PlanB doesn't bring WH home, I'm sure I will hit a point where D is what *I* want.

Selfishly, I want to be in love again, I want to be wanted and I want to have companionship with a MAN again. Women are great, but friendship only does so much.

Be assured that my WH would have to be tested to sex me up. I have been tested, also. MEDC is pretty strong on the STD testing tip, but anyone reading this can hear that message loud and clear, so it's always good to post it.

My H had told me that his 1st wife cheated on him. Years later during his confession of infidelity in OUR marriage, he mentioned that he also had 2 affairs during his 1st marriage.

I consider him a repeat offender.

Hi Lemon ~ Well, you finally said something that I disagree with !! Truly, you don't believe this ~

We all love you

Lemonman,

I think you DO agree with much of what is on this site. In fact, I am always puzzled when you say this because from what I see, you did exactly what this site is about.

The purpose of this site as I understand it is to offer relationship tools not just to address infidelity but about marriage and its problems. From my reading Harley's approach was simply that many divorces probably did not need to occur IF people understood relationships and what it means to be a good partner in a relationship.

You, yourself, have decided that you wanted to improve yourself as you stated and did so after your divorce. I think that is to your credit and you should be proud.

I will tell you this. People that post here and state the want to save their marriages get what little advice I have to offer to do so. That does not mean that I agree with their decision, but it MUST be their decision. And really often people in what I feel to be lost marriages MUST come to this on their own and usually are "happier" if that is a good word for this because they KNOW they gave it their all. And then they did what you did and I would have probably recommended and moved on to hopefully a much more successful relationship.

Lemonman, I view this place sort of like medicine. It is not a science it is an art. People come to doctors with very serious illnesses, cancer for example, and in many cases the Doc KNOWS that the odds are very low. The Doc does not recommend suicide. The Doc does not recommend giving up. The Doc often offers courses of treatment that MIGHT cure the patient, but often leaves it up to the patient to make the decision to go for it or not.

This site is very much like this. If one is posting on a Marriagebuilders site and someone comes here asking for advice on saving their marrigae, we offer what we know. Is anything set in stone? Nope! Are their any guarentees? Nope.

Will some keep trying and trying, when others of us might have pack it in?? Yup. Will some give up without much effort or fight? Yup. It is their call.

I always follow this dictum which I made up to deal with extended family issues. "No one runs their life like I would run it for them." That particular saying has helped me in dealing with the many and varied personalities that exist in my family. It has worked for over 60 years.

I think this site offers tools and insights to make any of us better people, better in relationships romantic or not, and far more aware of relationship issues than we were. That is exactly why I am 'Just Learning'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hope life is treating your well Lemonman. I will say given the circumstances of your discoverying the second betrayal, I would have done exactly as you did. I liked you thinking then, and I enjoy it now.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Lemonman...how's the new relationship going?

I know you struggle with a lot of what goes on here.

I'm with JL in seeing you as someone who implemented Plan A/B/D pretty crisply and decisively. You gave the marriage a chance, then moved on. If you baulk at that, I think I'd lift a Spock eyebrow and say 'Fascinating'...

The journey from discovery to letting go was, for you, a fairly short one. Why was it short? Probably because your nature is to face facts and make decisions without sentiment, because you start from a basis of healthy self-esteem, and because your self-worth was based on things other than your marriage. Oh, and because you hadn't any children. Believe me, they add tons of complexity to the decision. (Note that most new BSs who don't have children are advised here to cut their losses and run.)

For lots of people, the journey from D-day to being ready to let go is a much longer one. Loads of people are trained, through childhood, adolescence and adulthood, that it's imperative they should be kind, gentle, accommodating, flexible, compassionate, faithful and honest as a marriage partner. These are all great things for a marriage,of course, but when they're the only tools you have in the box to recover from your spouse's infidelity, then you're a bit underequipped - can you see that? When your self-esteem is based almost entirely round others appreciating those 'good' qualities about you, then it's difficult to throw yourself into a campaign of boundary-setting, being the bad guy and enduring hate. When your training in decision-making has always been based on mutual agreement and making sure 'everyone'is reasonably satisfied, it's pretty much impossible to make decisions based on hard facts and the survival of the self. At first, anyway. It takes time to get there.

Some BSs don't have to...their WS's are equally shocked by the damage they've done and get back in line quickly. I guess those BSs don't come here so often? But a BS finding themselves with someone who continues to act out and damage the marriage has to find themselves some self-protective tools. And it takes a while for the mind to leave the 'I-am-good-and-loveable-only-if-I-please' mindset to a recognition that they are entitled to being treated with fairness and respect and that anything less is not worth having.

Some people gradually get there, and begin gathering the tools of self-protection. But some people can never let go of the old tools, and will struggle eternally to fix things using gentleness, kindness...etc. Which doesn't work, and they don't get it that they don't get it, as you say.


I think you get impatient with the slowness of people who have a long journey to travel to get to where you got to quickly.

That's why some will be helpless in the face of serial cheating. Finding that they're married to someone for whom infidelity is a basic coping skill, is way outside their own experience and ability to understand and cope. It can take a while for the mind to adapt to the shock and begin making new paths.

And in my experience, people who make 'tough' decisions before they're really able to comprehend what they're doing, tend to make bad, impulsive decisions, deal poorly with the outcome, and end up rushing back to apologise. It's better for them to give themselves time to get their head and heart in synch and make decisions they can stick with.

Even if it means the WS gets to [email]sh@g[/email] half the state in the meantime.

TA

Here's some advice that is handed out on Here routinely:

Just have the WS write a 10th No Contact Letter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That should take care of it and make it all better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

***********************
By the way Sour Dude,
its refreshing to have a counter point come along ....even if its not as often as it used to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
In the mean time,
Keep up those improvements!

This is GREAT..coming from LM....

I AGREE!!

I quote this because it SOOO WELL STATES A POINT that I have tried to express to you LM.

I understand well IF you do not want to open up a DISCUSSION with me BUT...

I want to stress my STRONG BELIEF in FREE WILL and how I consider it to be DISRESPECTFUL to assume that folks should look at the world and others the way that I do...

And I feel that I have the right to be RESPECTED for what I believe in and who I am...a PERSON who can BEAR more than many others..and on and on...IT'S ME... ME... THAT I HAVE GROWN TO LOVE MORE AND MORE SINCE COMING TO THIS SITE... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

x

eav,

To answer your question [not necessarily that I am saying this to YOU in your sitch] the reason why people sometimes question the motivations and seemingly obsessive pursuite of some BS in the face of serial adultery situations is this...

Sometimes the BS is AT LEAST as sick as the WS and a repeat serial offense situation suggests that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

x

This has been an interesting thread for me to read, since I recently became aware that my WH is a serial cheater. I had no idea until the last 2 weeks when someone shared that info with me. It reinforces some thoughts I have been having and also makes me question some other ones.

Thank you for this discussion...

IHC,

Just sending hugs your way because I know how difficult hearing that info is.

Still

IHC:

I am truly sorry that this discussion had to reinforce thoughts that are no doubt painful for you.

LM