My wife and I have been married for 5 years now. About a year ago my wife told me that she loves me but wasn't 'in love' with me anymore. At that time we had a 2 year old daughter and my wife said didn't think things were going to change but she didn't want to leave. A couple of weeks later we found out that we were expecting our second child. Instead of focusing on our marriage we were focusing on our daughter and the pregnancy. Everything ‘seemed’ better so I mistakenly assumed everything was fine.

We had our 2nd child and my wife stayed home from work for 3 months to take care of him. During this time my wife was trying to get me to change jobs and work at her company. She was trying to email her boss asking about any openings but her email account wasn't working and left a message for me to try to fix it. When I was on her account an email popped up from a male coworker thanking her for lunch that day. His last sentence said 'BTW my new car has a bigger back seat!!!' I immediately thought PA. I wanted to confront her but instead decided to wait and see her reply. I did ask her where she had lunch that day and asked if she went with anyone. She lied and said she was by herself. The next day she had erased the email without replying but he emailed her again asking 'Have you forgotten about me?'. She replied 'No I haven't. Funny fact about your new car...inappropriate!’ After checking other emails they had sent back and forth it was obvious that he was subtly hinting at a PA and she didn’t seem interested. I checked phone records for his cell & home #'s but there were no calls, only emails.

I figured this was a lucky wake up call and that I can't wait for it to happen for real. That's when I ran across MB and started reading HNHN. I never told my wife what I knew and that I was doing it to be a better husband and she read it with me.

She went back to work a few weeks later and any communication they had I had no access to. So I started asking about her coworkers. After reading the book she told me she realized there was a guy at work that had probably been making deposits in her love bank before she had read the book. I asked her if she ever saw him outside of work or ever went out alone together for lunch. She again lied but I didn't say anything. I asked her if she thought she needed to stop being friends with him. She said that she has no feelings for him in that way and she doesn't have many friends at work but if I wanted her to stop she would. I was too trusting and said as long as she new what the consequences could be that I would trust her.

That was a mistake because it drove me crazy over the next 3 weeks wondering what was happening. Finally, last night I told her everything I new. She admitted that he was meeting her conversation need and that she probably needed to end it to be fair to our marriage. She felt like she had betrayed me for lying about him and didn't know why she had been hiding him from me since there wasn't a PA. Especially since she has had other male friends but never hid them from me.

Since she has lied to me before about him I'm afraid she will do it again. I've read a lot about EA since then and realize that is exactly what she is having. I plan on sitting down with her tommorrow night and telling her that for our marriage to work it is no longer an option that she stays friends with him. I've already been using HNHN so I'm well on my way on Plan A and I just bought LB. But because they work together it isn't possible for her to not see him and she and I don't know what she needs to tell him because they weren't having an PA and he may not realize that they are having an EA.

If anyone has any advice on what she can tell him or what else I need to tell her tomorrow and where to go from here I'm all ears.

Hi bhge - Sounds like you're doing what you need to be doing right now. Keep the communications lines open with your W and work hard to not LB her when you discuss this OM. Trust is hard to regain once it's lost, but it IS possible to trust again.

Keep reading and communicating with your W... it's hard work, but it's well worth it. It does sound good that your W is willing to talk with you and is asking for your help in how to deal with this OM.

You might even want to go pay this guy a visit and let him know in no uncertain terms that he needs to stay away from your W. You don't need to be violent with him, but he needs to clearly understand that YOU are willing to fight for your M and that his attentions are not welcome. You might also stop by the HR department and let them know that your W is receiving unwanted attention...

Semper Fi,
RIF

Thanks for the encouraging words! This might be a stupid question but if I talk to HR dept. and I tell them that the she is receiving unwanted attention, do I tell them that it is unwanted by me or her? I'm afraid if I lie and tell them that it was unwanted by her and they have a talk with the OM she could end up mad at me for saying anything. I think going to the other man myself is probably a better idea than letting/hoping my wife will take care of it. The OM is also married with 2 kids, I've considered calling his wife but again if I get him in trouble I'm afraid it could backfire with my wife. The problem is I don't think that my wife realized that she was having an EA. Maybe that's just me being naive. I feel like I'm walking a tight rope, being firm enough to make sure this ends but at the same time making sure I don't do something that's going to push her away.

Hi bhge - Have you and your W talked about this OM and how she feels about him? If she's wanting to cut all ties with him, then ask her about talking with the HR department. If she says that she "doesn't want to hurt him"... then she probably still has some feelings for him. If she still has feelings for him, then I would probably go ahead and tell the HR department (even though you didn't POJA with your W) because the most critical thing right now is to expose the EA... expose it to the HR department and to the OM's W.

As far as telling the OM's wife, HE started this attack on your family and IMHO, if you know his home phone number, then I'd give her a call and let her know what's going on. This guy sounds like a player and he's "playing" at the expense of your family (and his).

I wouldn't worry too much about "pushing her away"... she's already in an EA.... and you sure don't want it to go any further!

Shine the light of day on this EA before it goes any further...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Did you save a copy of that "bigger back seat" e-mail? If so, you could consider giving it to OM's wife. It was certainly way out of line and indicates he was aggressively pursuing your wife.

What is she telling you now about their relationship? Does she still see him at work?

It is unlikely that she has told you everything about their relationship--number of times they got together for lunch, whether or not they made out in the back seat of his car, stuff like that.

Principals on this site would state that she should leave this job in order to have no contact with him.

You are most likely going to have a hard time getting past this EA. The lies are very difficult to get over. If she is still withholding information from you, which she probably is, it will be even more difficult for you. This information is likely to come out little by little and you are likely to stumble on info or seek out info on your own because of the pain and uncertainty you feel. Talk to her about radical honesty and how it is best to get all of the information about this EA out right now, rather than go through more pain over a longer period of time. See how she responds.

You say she is familiar with the concepts already right? Does she know you are posting here? If you suspect she is still wayward, do not tell her about your posts. If she has withheld info from you about the EA, I would define her as "wayward".

Tell her you need to know the whole truth of what they did with each other--how often they talked, how often they met, what they said to each other, if they touched in any way--pick any or all of these things that you feel you need to know and tell her you need to know them.

Tell her that for the sake of your marriage, she needs to have no contact with him and that this will involve writing a no contact letter that you both approve and it being sent to him. You can press the send button on the computer, or you can put it into the mail.

Get a copy of that "back seat" e-mail and plan to send it to his wife. Do not tell your wife that you are going to do this.

The letter can say the same things that any no contact letter states:
My interactions with you were disrespectful to my marriage. My husband and family did not deserve this disrespect. I want to stop this disrespect and work on my marriage. In order to do that, I want to have no further contact with you and I ask that you stop all contact with me.

You decide the timing on all of this, but the sooner, the better for your R.

first off, your marriage CAN still be saved. getting in touch with the OM's wife is crucial to exposure and stopping this affair. the longer affair's continue, the more damage that can be done to your marriage. you can do this! please do not tell your wife ahead of time that you are contacting HR or OM's wife. She will talk you out of it and this gives more time for the affair to continue since they thrive on secrecy. i really think you should check out harley's surviving affair book - it's a lot more relevant than just HNHS or LBs. your wife will go thru a process called withdrawal too, don't freak out. Also the not in love, can return.

First I want to thank all of you for your responses. The fact that you are here willing to listen and help a complete stranger through a hard time is unbelievable. There has been a lot of good advice. I agree that the OMW needs to know. I know that if she new something I would want to know about it. I don't know what kind of reception I will receive but it has to be done. The one thing holding me back about the HR is that, like I said, my wife is trying to get me to go to work there. Which also leads me to believe that she didn't realize she was having an EA. I would be working in a room of about 60 people, her and the OM would be 2 of them. I would think it would be almost impossible for their EA to continue with me working side by side with them. If I say something to the HR, they might see me working there with her as a problem and not hire me. I would probably rather talk to the OM and OMW. S and I have already had a few talks about this situation but tomorrow night will be the first time since I've known it is an EA. I will let her know at that time that she will have to do everything in her power to seperate herself from him at work until we can figure something out about working conditions. Thanks again for all of your help. I love all of the advice.

Hey bhge,



Don't bet on it! Mrs. RIF and I worked in the same building and that's when she had her long term EA/PA...

The powerful attraction of an A will enable both parties to find or make ways to connect with each other, whether you are there or not...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Once the line has been crossed, and workmates have an EA, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to keep working together. If they work together, there is always a possibility the affair will ignite.

I don't like the whole "backseat" comment. It sounds almost like they have already BEEN in his old car's backseat. It might just be me, but it seems suspicious.

Notify his wife of EXACTLY what is going on. Don't let your wife know that you are going to do this. That may put an end to the affair.

Thanks again Rif for the info. I agree that it could still happen. I just don't know why she would want me to work there with her when I don't already. But you are right, if they want it to happen it will happen. Believer, that is exactly what I thought. I figured for sure that if I waited for her reply that I would get the hard core evidence I needed. But then when she replied "funny fact about your new car...inappropriate!" it definately didn't give me the feeling that they had, although I still had my suspicions. I've scoured phone records for the last year and there is no sign of his phone # anywhere. There was also a past email that he sent her that said "I've got some work gossip for you. Here is my phone # and I'll fill you in." She replied "Nice try trying to give me your phone #. And I already know all about it." So again he is definately trying to start a PA, or so it seems, and it seems like she is satisfied with just the EA. Unfortunately the email is gone about the back seat but that comment will probably stick with me forever. The rest of the email wasn't comforting either. Here is what I remember about it.

"I was so excited to see you that I forgot to pay you back for lunch. I guess I'll have to return the favor for date #11. You look great and you seem really happy."

I still am not 100% sure that nothing physically has happened but I don't think there is any question that he is interested in a PA. He also emailed her back on about 6 different occasions after that asking if she was available for lunch and everytime she said no, eventhough I was at work and she would have no problem having lunch. I don't think she realized he was after her physically until that email and since then when she said "innapropriate" it seems she was trying to avoid him. I still don't know what to think for sure but I wish I had that email to send to his wife.

bhge, the others are exactly right. She needs to cease all contact with this man unless you are willing to live with an affair for the next few years. We have affairs on this forum that turned into long term affairs because they didn't heed this step. Here is what Dr. Harley has to say about a situation such as yours:


Escaping the Jaws of Infidelity: How to Avoid an Affair
Letter #1


Introduction: Most of the letters I receive are from people whose spouses are having an affair. Affairs destroy families and the innocent spouses don't know how to respond to the unfolding tragedy they witness. But once in a while I receive a letter from someone who is about to have an affair, and wants help in how to avoid it. This week, I am printing their letters and my answers. Quite frankly, the only one who can avoid an affair is the one that is about to have one. While his or her spouse can make the job easier or more difficult, the spouse can't avoid it for them. So these letters from those who are tempted get to the heart of the issue, how to avoid an affair.


Dear Dr. Harley,
I have been married almost seven years to a wonderful man who treats me like a queen. I was pregnant when my husband and I got married, but I never experienced the passion for him that I know I can feel for a man. We now have four children and he has been a solid foundation for our relationship and our family. He has done whatever he can do to make me happy. I do not deserve him....

I am a very aggressive woman in my mid 30's, I love to party, dance and laugh. My husband, on the other hand is very passive and serious. He's just not much fun. The problem: I am gravitating towards an older man in his late 40's. A man with a tremendous zest for life, who too is married, and in the same business as myself. I have not had sex with this man, but I feel as though I am falling in love.

I am overwhelmed with guilt...I know that I am a horrible wife for feeling this way..PLEASE HELP!!

N.S.



Dear N.S.
The man you are attracted to is meeting one or more of your emotional needs much better than your husband does. From your description he seems to be meeting your needs for conversation and recreational companionship. You have such a good time when you're with him that his account in your Love Bank has reached the threshold that triggers the feeling of romantic love.

It's not uncommon to find a person that does a good job meeting our needs, but it's dangerous when our spouses are doing a bad job. At first, we simply find ourselves in love with this person. If we also love our spouses, we shake it off and move on. But if we are not in love with our spouses, like you, we feel confused as to why we don't have the same feeling toward our spouses. Then, in an effort to make sense of it all, we think we are being cheated by our spouses out of what's rightfully ours, a fulfilling life. We think, if our spouses can't do the job, we have the right to find someone else who can, and we should grab the opportunity while it exists. It may be a once-in-a-lifetime chance.

Many faced with this dilemma are not in your position, where your spouse has dedicated himself to your happiness. They find themselves married to spouses who have ignored them or even abused them. It's much easier to justify an affair under those conditions. But since your husband has tried very hard to give you the best he has, and you have four children who need you to stay together, your feelings of guilt are quite understandable.

Although your husband has put a great deal of effort into making you happy, he has missed the target, apparently right from the beginning. His efforts have been misdirected. He wants to meet your most important emotional needs, but has never learned how. It is not his lack of dedication or good intentions -- it is lack of knowledge. But he can learn to meet your needs as well as anyone, and you can be more in love with him than you've ever been. When that happens, your marriage will be secure.

You are on the brink of an affair, and once you jump in, you may not be able to get yourself out before you have done untold damage to your family. Sooner or later most affairs die out, but in their wake they leave unspeakable pain. Your husband would rather have his hand cut off than go through the agony of your unfaithfulness to him. It is the most cruel decision you could possibly make. Avoid that choice at all costs. Instead, dedicate yourself to training your husband to become the man you've always needed.

First, you should avoid seeing the man at work altogether, and it will mean quitting your job. You are already addicted to him, and your emotions will control your decisions whenever you see each other. It won't be long before you have thought through a justification of your behavior, and then there will be no stopping you. You will lose all perspective and ruin your marriage and family, to say nothing about intentionally hurting a man who cares a great deal for you. Six months after your affair has started you will be so up to your eyeballs in guilt you will be contemplating suicide. Get this man out of your life at all costs!

Then, you should try to come to grips with what it is this man does for you that you need so much you'd risk giving up everything to have it. After you identify what it is about the other man that you find so attractive, try to teach your husband to do whatever it is. I understand personality limitations -- your husband is more passive, while this man is more aggressive, like you. But you should be able to identify your needs, such as conversation and recreational companionship, that can be met regardless of the personality type of the person you are with. I have seen remarkable recoveries of couples just like you with seemingly incompatible personalities. It turned out that their personalities were not incompatible, it was their habits and activities that were incompatible. Once their lifestyle changed, their marriages were terrific.

Four children can do a lot to change your lifestyle and your ability to meet each other's needs. You and your husband should create more privacy in your marriage and set aside time to be alone so that you can meet each other's most important needs. Your husband should be your favorite recreational companion. To give him a fair chance to succeed, make him your ONLY recreational companion for a while. Train him in on the activities you enjoy the most.

My book, Fall In Love, Stay In Love, will teach you to achieve exactly what you need: Compatibility. Read it with your husband, and build the marriage both of you need.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5024_qa.html

I will tell you what I suspect. I think she has had an affair with him in the past and broke up with him. She asked him to return to a coworker relationship and he is not complying; he is chasing her. She wants you to come to work with her to PROTECT HER. She would rather do this than tell you the truth because you would insist she leave her job.

She wrongly thinks she can turn an affair back into a platonic friendship so she can sweep it under the rug. That is impossible, of course.

I believe she does want the marriage, though, but is not being honest about the past. She feels like this can be left in the past. But it CAN'T. This secret will always cause a wedge between you.

I hate to even ask this, but is there any chance that your new baby is not yours?


I think there is a much bigger context to this comment that is missing from the picture. A man does not just say this out of the blue, IMO.

bhge,

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to agree with ML's analysis of the situation. You are going to insist that SHE leaves her job, and if she doesn't, you need to expose to HR. I would also expose to OMW.

I have been afraid of the possibility that the child is not mine. I've thought about having a paternity test but it terrifies me of what it may reveal. I'm definately glad I checked with you guys first before I have my talk with my wife. My original plan was to have her end it with her coworker. I now plan on doing that myself with a phone call. When I do this should I give him the ultimatum of quitting himself or telling HR about the emails? In our line of work there are very few jobs that are 8-5 M-F. My current job has both evening and weekend shifts and if my wife leaves she will probably have to work the same. With 2 kids that would mean we would have to work opposite shifts and would never see each other. I would think that would be almost as devastating to our marriage as the EA. T

Mel is the best person to advise you on all this. You cannot force OM to quit his job. But I think you should go ahead and contact OM and tell him to stop contacting your wife. As I said, you can't make him quit his job. But either he quits his job or your wife leaves her job. If he quits, then you and she can work there together. If he will not quit his job, then your wife has to quit her job. I would think that if you have to contact HR about all this, they would be unlikely to hire you. But if your WW refuses to quit the job, you should contact HR.

This is pretty serious and your marriage is at risk. I am sorry to hear that you already have some percentage of doubt about paternity. But Mel and others are great counsel. Listen to them.

You can still contact OM's wife with the e-mail information. Also, if you feel better about it, there are probably ways to retrieve that e-mail to show OM's wife the actual e-mail

Yes, contact the other man's wife. She needs to know that HER marriage and family are being assaulted.

You can do a paternity test yourself, and mail in the swabs. I would certainly do it for my peace of mind. I'm sure that you love your child, and it wouldn't make any difference, but it would put your mind at ease.

bhge, I would not discuss anything with the OM, but would follow your original plan and talk to your wife. Ask her to leave the job and end all contact with the OM. Somehow you will have to find jobs that are more accommodating. A job can be replaced, a marriage cannot. And as long as she continues to work with this guy, the affair remains a huge threat. It is like sending an alcoholic into the bar every day and telling him he can't drink. Eventually, the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity and he is drinking again. This is what you are facing with your wife.

But I suspect you are not getting the whole story here, bhge. I think she has had an intense affair and is not telling you the correct story. She WANTS to tell you so bad that she is spoonfeeding partial truths to alleviate her guilt, IMO. But she is still afraid to tell you the whole story. I would keep this in mind when you speak to her. Let her know you believe there is much she is not telling you, and that you understand she is probably doing it to protect you. Reassure her that you don't need to be protected and can handle the full truth.

In the meantime, secretly make arrangements to get a DNA test. The OMW also needs to know about this affair. You may find that she already knows about it, but just hasn't picked up the phone to call you.

I agree with ML. She has had an affair with this man, but she is trying to stop without you finding out. Any contact with this POS is a chance for a recurrance. She is too weak to be able to completely end it and move on. You need to force her to do it. I know you are worried about the paternity of your child. But if it is not yours, does it really change anything? You are that child's REAL father. Just fight to keep your family together. I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks again for your responses. I have a couple of questions. First, those emails he sent her were sent from his work email. Couldn't that email, plus her response, be considered sexual harrassment? Wouldn't their HR take that email very seriously without me having to tell them about an affair? The other question is about talking to the other man. If W were to quit her job, it would obviously take a couple of weeks before that could happen. If I don't talk to the OM, isn't that 2 weeks or possibly more that they would have to communicate. Or should I just hope that the OMW will take care of it?

Someone had mentioned finding old emails. My wife usually hard deletes all of her emails, from him or anyone else. I don't know of any way to get those back. If someone knows I'm all ears because I would love to get that email back. However I was able to pull up the response to it. Here it is preceded by what I remember from original email:

From OM sent sometime on Friday June 8th

It was so good to see you again. I was so excited/mesmerized that I forgot to pay you back for lunch. I guess I'll have to treat next time for date #11. You look really great and you seem happy.

BTW...my new car has a bigger back seat!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

From: OM
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:58 AM
To: W
Subject: ???

Have you forgot about me???

From: W
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 5:16 PM
To: OM
Subject: RE: ???

No sir, I have not. Funny fact about your new car. . . inappropriate. I deleted your last email so I forgot what it was about. Gotta go, baby crying upstairs…sorry so short.

From: OM
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2007 9:07 AM
To: W
Subject: ???

No worries…sorry for being inappropriate but I thought you might have forgot how witty and charming I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />…I think my previous email was mostly apologizing for not thanking you for lunch and hoping that you would want to do it again soon so I could treat…hope you are having a banner day.

Ciao

Inform his wife. That usually takes care of things.

Here are some other emails that I could recover that had been sent between the two:

From OM sent 6/20/07

Greetings

Hi my name is OM…I thought I should introduce myself since you have apparently forgotten about me completely??? Anyway I thought I should check in and see how you are doing and if you are considering meeting for lunch sometime I will be gone this Friday thru Tuesday for our trip to SF…also thought you might want some action in the pool amongst my fellow travelers to see how long it takes for me to get hit on once we get to SF by another guy…sorry but I put my money on the airport <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> because I am sure I will be feeling pretty frisky at that point…

Later tater

From W sent 6/25/07

I hope…scratch that…I’m sure you’re having a good time on your trip, I’m super jealous. I went to Lawrence the last weekend so I am getting out a little. I’ll be back to work in 2 weeks, can you believe it!! I can’t. We’re going to Minnesota on Thursday returning on Sunday…driving…yuck. We’re going to visit FS family. Regarding the pool…I definitely think you will have hit on someone before you leave the airport. I’m not sure about lunch…obviously not this week and I only have 1 week after that to get all the stuff done that I promised myself I would do while I was off. It should be interesting when I get back…I have no idea what I will be doing, where I will be sitting etc… TTFN, W

From OM sent 6/27/07

Wow that is a lot of driving in a short amount of time…good luck!!! I am not jealous at all…so basically it sounds like you are too busy for me!!! I understand but remember that I am very emotional but hopefully I will be over it before you get back…trip was fun and relaxing and very expensive can you loan me some cash???

Later

From OM sent 7/3/07

How was your trip??? I hope the drive was not tragic but I am sure you were glad to be done…I assume you are still not able to meet for lunch but I thought I should at least check…anyway have a fun fourth…btw crazy morning got home from my swim and there were 3 “little” kittens curled up on my front porch!!! I fed and watered them and I see if they are still there when I get home tonight…I am assuming they were dumped…people are so cruel.

Ciao

Missed these emails. These were before they had their lunch that I found out about and led to all of this. There was also a previous email that he tried to give her his phone # so he could tell her work gossip but I couldn no longer retrieve it.

From OM sent 5/23/07



Doug K. was fired on Monday…apparent argument/misunderstanding between him and Tim R…I have not called him yet but Patti talked to him the other night…pretty weird huh??? No warning or second chance??? We should do lunch again before your break is over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />…I am on vacation next week but I am free tomorrow or Friday or the next week when I get back…how are you, DS and DD???

Notice how he didn't bother to ask how her husband was doing!

From W sent 5/23/07

OMG, people are dropping like flies. How could an argument between 2 pharmacists get someone fired?? Do you know what it was about? Can’t say that I’m sorry to see him go….sorry I know you two are friends. FS’s parents are in town this Thursday and Friday, but lunch the next next week sounds good. Is this your San Francisco trip? I’m jealous. I can’t wait until October when I can have my body back to myself….you know what I’m saying? Of course not, you’re a man! Back to the Doug thing….Tim R is the fulfillment Tim right? Did he not get into trouble for the argument? Have you talked to Patti about their conversation? Did she feel bad for him getting fired?? I can’t imagine why else she would call him….I’m definitely out of the loop on this one.

Everyone is doing well here…DD is doing awesome using the potty, no accidents for about a week now. She is wearing pull-ups at night though; I don’t know how long we’ll have to continue that….she wakes up dry about 75% of the time, enough about that. DD is DD, he’s a baby….eats, sleeps, poops, you know. How are summer sports going? My 6 week follow up appt is this week so I will be able to start exercising again….I hope I can find the motivation that I had after having DD. Anyway, better go for now.

They would take an AFFAIR very seriously because it leaves them open to legal liablility. It also makes the affair very hard to conduct at work when everyone there knows. There would be no reason to not tell them about the affair.


Yes, they might possibly communicate.

At first I thought you were going nuclear over one email which the "Back Seat" comment could have been misinterpretted. But with the rest of the emails and her purposely double deleting them, this is at a minimum inappropriate communication. Still the content on her part doesn't lead to a smoking gun just office banter, but he seems to be fishing and she is not stopping it. I would sit her down and tell her that this has to stop and that his wife should be told/shown these emails. Also a threat to go to HR if they don't go no contact.

I don't think he's fishing at all.

I think the backseat comment was "inappropriate" only because he put it in writing. It broke the rules of their relationship. It was a inappropriate because it was on a company email that could be monitored or pulled back up by the company at any time. She was cya'ing.

I noticed above he called her "a man". I think he does this because he feels more like the woman in the relationship. He's infactuated with her and is living for their "lunches" (which is code for sex meetings). He feels a bit like she is merely using him...as a man would do. He's desparately trying to engage her in more.

OM is her F-Buddy. She's a busy executive woman that travels a lot and has 2 kids and a husband at home. She feels entitled to a little fun and company on work trips as long as no one knows and no one finds out. I remember someone posting a article about these type of travelling businessman/woman romances/affairs. They are quite typical.

I think OM is blowing it by pursuing too much too brazeningly but who knows. They MAY have been much more intense last year and now she's steadingly backing off OR they meet whenever they can but WW just uses him for sex and nothing more.

I don't know how to proceed or how to get the full truth. There's too much speculation which gives the wayward too much opportunity to deny and withhold the truth. Rather than having to wait months for the whole truth...I'd likely try some basic snooping techniques (digital recorder in car) and hope to get lucky pretty quickly here.

Mr. Wondering

oops...she wrote the "you're a man" comment.

I better reread

You can retrieve deleted emails on microsoft outlook. I forget how, but some of the posters have posted how to do so before. I would start a new thread titled "how to retrieve deleted emails on outlook." Once you get those emails it is definitely time to contact OMW.

One thing you need to do during all of this is be strong and don't allow yourself to be manipulated. Don't be afraid of losing your WW. She will likely emotionally blackmail you into allowing her affair to continue. Don't go for it. There is a reason that she still is with you, and you need to take control of the situation without fear of losing her. Do what you would do if you weren't afraid.

Also, if and when you do expose to her HR, OM (if anyone) is going to be the one disciplined because he is the one with all the explicit sexual banter in his emails. Your WW would likely be untouched except for some humiliation (which is good, she needs some humility).

After reading these e-mails, I tend to agree with ML and Mr.W... I think that your W is/was involved in an EA/PA with this guy and it just trying to cut the strings with him.

The "lunch" comment caught my eye as well and it sure does sound like a code word for sex... who in their right mind would ask someone over company e-mail to meet them for sex, but "lunch"???, people do that all the time...

Like the others have said, expose this to the OM's W immediately! When you do that, I'll bet that Mr. Lunch Buddy won't be so quick to shoot e-mails to your W.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hi bhge,
I did a search on one of my old threads and found the information regarding retrieving deleted emails. It was given to me by walkingthefield. I was given some caution when I was given this information: What you find in writing can haunt you for a long time. If you have anyone to work with you on this task, you may want to have someone with you that you trust to act as a buffer.

I went ahead and retrieved the e-mails. I did not get all of them as I recall reading some on d day that did not come back--my H deleted them when I walked away from the computer on d day. I thought that I could handle the content of them when I retrieved them months after d day. But I do find that the words do haunt me. The words go through my mind and it takes effort to get them out of my mind, even after 17 months from d day. It was not a physical affair, and he never told her he loved her, but still, the words of flattery and the secrecy and deception are hard to forget.

So that is my cautionary note to you. I understand why you want that one email about the back seat so that you can show it to OM's wife. But just be careful and take care.


Close Microsoft Outlook.

This registry "hack" works in all version from Outlook 98 and up.

Start the registry editor (regedit.exe).

Go to the follwing key in the registry.

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Exchange\Client\Options

On the edit menu, click add value and the following registry value: Value name: DumpsterAlwaysOn Type: DWORD Set the data value to 1.

exit the registry editor.

This should allow you to recover deleted items that no longer reside in "deleted items"

Restart microsoft outlook.

To use the newly enable recovery feature: Go to the directory they were stored in: (inbox, etc...) Select the Tools menu. Select Recover Deleted items, a new dialog box will appear and recently deleted items for that folder will magically appear, If you want the buttons will give you the option to recover them. This will work in ALL folders.

Once again thanks for the advice.

Lake, I've tried that. I think it only works if the mail server uses Microsoft Exchange and mine does not. If someone knows differantly please let me know.

RIF, I'm not sure what to do. In your first post you and others talked about me paying OM a visit. MelodyLane said just to go to OMW. I am thinking I should do both. What is your take now?

MrWondering, I'm not sure if you're getting my story and another intertwined? My wife doesn't travel at all at her job. Not to say that it makes much of a difference.

I will admit, the more you here that she could have been having a PA before the more you start believing it. We didn't find out she was pregnant until about 2 monthis in to the pregnancy. She could have been having the A during that time and a little while after and then realized as the pregnancy went on that the PA was eventually going to have to stop at some point. She may have, at that time, decided to end it completely rather than turn it back on. I know that she has lied to me about little things that she knows I wouldn't have been mad about (having lunch with plutonic friend). So there must be something that she felt needed to be hidden.

After the kids go to bed tonight I'm going to have the talk with WW. Tomorrow I plan on trying to get a hold of OMW. I already found the phone # and I've found out her name. W & OM will already be at work at this time so I don't know if I will be able to trust her to keep OM at bay without him knowing what has happened. That is why I want to talk to him. Anyway, I'll fill everyone in on how the talk with the W goes tonight.
Thanks again to all!

bhge, DON'T TELL YOUR WIFE YOU ARE GOING TO CALL THE OMW!! That will give her an opportunity to PRE-EMPT you and you do not want to do that.


She should not keep your call secret from the OM, if that is what you mean. What do you plan on contacting the OM about?

Most importantly, bhge, when you speak to your wife, let her know you believe there is more to the story and ask her to leave her job.

If you're lucky

OM's Wife MAY just get luckier than you with the snooping. If possible, encourage her to snoop prior to confronting her husband.

Big reason being...

It can sometimes take MONTHS or years to get the full truth. I like the idea of trying your best to get it up front and get that hurdle over and done with. Some couples even end up divorcing without getting ANY or all of the truth that was, at the time, readily available to them.

Further...if you've read the spying 101 thread you'll see a post in there I wrote about bluffing. If OM's wife has the ability to plan a confrontation to address this issue she MAY want to utilize some of the techniques I and others discuss to get the truth straight from OM (to the extent anything happened).

Sorry for mixing your story up earlier. I just read her email as his and that screwed me up. I do think it's possible I was right anyway. It's tough to gather the truth from what may or may not be coded emails. The "inappropriate" line by your wife for what was clearly "inappropriate" he didn't really respond professionally ... when a professional apology was in order. I did want to mention that at although OM only asked your wife how DD and DS were...I think it's encouraging for paternity that he didn't just say "how's the baby doing" excluding the other child.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

NO...do not forewarn your wife.

I misread again ...dang it.

OM's wife is entitled to directly confront her husband without forewarning as you are.

Talk to OM's wife first

Tell her to wait until tomorrow night to confront her husband or else your wife and him WILL coordinate their stories and neither of you will get anything but lies.

Forewarned is forearmed. This is a battle for your marriage and your family and this potential/likely secret is the enemy. Be a good general and keep your battle plans a secret.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I hope and pray this is all a big misunderstanding. My fear is that it is not and I want you to know...do not fear being wrong. In fact...the more defensive she is and tries to make this YOUR FAULT for questioning her the more likely it is I believe it did happen. This is a SERIOUS matter and although being wrongly accussed would be difficult...she should be sympathetic to your family and marital concerns. Think of this...if your wife turned the tables and questioned YOU...would you be offended??? No..you'd answer her questions because you wouldn't want her to doubt your actions and fidelity.

Hi bhge,



Given the e-mails that you showed us, I believe that your W is involved in an EA/PA... I would expose to the OM's W first and not worry about the OM for now. Let the OM feel the wrath of his own W for sneaking around on her... You can share what you've found out with the OM's W, but I wouldn't share this or discuss this with your W before you expose...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I agree with Mel that a man does not just say this out of the blue and that there is a much bigger context to this comment e.g. that they had been involved in PA. It definitely sounds to me if she had already been in the back seat of his old car. The OM was testing the waters and “invited” your W to the back seat of the new car this time.

From your W's response I get the impression that she has stopped the PA and not interested in PA anymore. Probably that's why she did not consider his comment to be "appropriate". The OM responded:

This is further confirmation IMO that there had been a PA in the past and that a backseat backseat incidence has indeed taken place (the OM "reminded" your W of that and tested/"hint" her to see if she will engage in PA with him again).

You are being given great advice from these people... and I would like to give you some input....

1. This smells like, looks like, and sounds like a PA has happened.

2. E-mails are now required to be retained by law for most companies, they have been for some time now. When confronting your WW you should "bluff" by telling her that you're thinking about retaining an attorney to get access to ALL e-mails to your WW back to the beginning of her employment. Tell her if she comes clean you won't embarrass yourself by having them accessed "during discovery"....

Good luck.... keep yours eyes open and the entire truth could be worse than you ever imagined. I hope it is not... however, these are great people and can guide you... but you're in charge.... they can only guide... they won;t take one step for you...

Good luck sir...

Oh the drama! I don't know what to think anymore. I had, the talk with W last night and it went really well. She has agreed with everything I said, I asked her many questions about their relationship and she answered them calmly but firmly. I learned a lot about it. She said that it has never become physical and that she has never thought of him in that way. She has agreed that he has been meeting her conversational need. She has said that wasn't the first time something like the "backseat" comment has come out of his mouth towards her and that she has always told him it was innapropriate or she would just blow it off. She realizes now that it is as much her fault as it is his by not giving him the ultimatum of stopping such talk or they would no longer be friends. She said she will do whatever I ask of her, including quitting her job. I also found out that OM has told W a lot about his marrital problems. OMW has already accused him of a couple of affairs before this. As someone has already mentioned, he is a 'player'. The first time they met he was hitting on her. We are going to start looking for other jobs immediately. Unfortunately it may take up to a month before we can get her out of there. As for contacting OM, OMW, and HR I will fill you in later.

You are muddled in a pile of crap until your WW gives you the truth... My FWW slept with an old man who met her needs. She is repulsed by this when she thinks of it now. She also slept with a coworker "she never thought of that way" after we divorced....

You have no chance of recovery until you feel as if you know the truth... and I assure you, you do not... have that child tested... do you want to go to your grave wondering?? There is never anything wrong with seeking out the truth... at all costs....

Ok, so she is not having an affair, doesn't think of him romantically but has admitted it is an "emotional affair" and is willing to leave her job over a "friendship??" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Would you quit your job over a workplace "friendship" with some guy named BILL? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mel<---------scratching my head

I think she is desperately complying with your every wish so that you don't keep pushing the envelope. She's willing to quit her job at your request just because some guy has been talking to her inappropriately? I think she's cooperating so that you think she's telling the truth. I would talk to OMW and see if she had suspected him of having an affair with your wife and get a paternity test for your child. Otherwise, you might never know the truth.

Mel - There was much more to the conversation and I actually wrote it all out to post. Unfortunately when I submitted it it said the form was no longer valid and when I hit the back button my entire post, which took about 20 minutes to write was gone. I was to aggraveted to rewrite it completely. W thinks its ridiculous that she would have to leave her job over this because she doesn't want a physical relationship with him. However, we have both previously read HNHN and have read how EA can lead to PA. She never would have thought that she was having an EA until she read that book and read the definition of one. She understands why it is a serious situation because of that and said that she will do whatever I want her to do to make me feel better. She loves her job and does not want to leave it, but she will. I'm not defending her and saying that a PA has not happened. I'm just giving you more of the conversation. She also didn't know that I had read other emails from him. I asked her if he had emailed her anytime other than the "backseat" email. She told me he had and told me what he would usually talk about, which was exactly what I had read. Again, I'm not saying she was 100% honest with me but she said she was and everything that I could actually verify pointed to her telling me the truth. I spoke with the OM today. I will post what was said.

As I said I talked to the OM today, I know you guys told me to wait and talk to OMW first but I figured, OMW already has been suspicious of him for having other affairs (which he probably has) so OM has probably been covering his steps for a while. i.e. an email he sent out to friends about one of his kids, he sent one to his work email, and then sent one to W from there. Plus my discussion with W, I did not want anything ruined by him talking to her today. I wrote up what I was going to say so I didn't forget anything. I told him that I wasn't going to call his W or HR if he left my W alone completely just to see how he would react. Here is my conversation.

I have seen the emails you have sent my wife and I've found the comments digusting and unnaceptable. My wife and I talked about this last night and her relationship with you. It has come to my understanding that this wasn't the first time you have insinuated having a sexual affair with her. By doing this you have been telling me, my kids and my W that you don't care if you ruin our lives. W didn't get this before, she gets it now. Because of this W no longer wants to be friends with you. I'm considering taking this email to your wife and HR dept. At this moment in time I'm doing neither. Eventhough you couldn't have cared less about ruining my life, I'm not the type of guy to ruin somebody else's. But if you ever try to contact my wife by either talking to her or email her or even look at my wife from across the room, she will tell me and I'm sending that email to them. I'm sure your HR will consider that email sexual harassment and will immediately fire you. I also know a lot of people that work there that will be watching you in case you think she would be afraid to tell me out of sympathy, but she has assured me this would not happen. My wife told me that you live for your kids, if that is the case then you wouldn't be trying to screwing around on their mother. I suggest for your kids sake you patch things up with your wife and stop trying to mess around with mine. I'm sure if I tell them about all of this that your family will be devastated, it's up to you whether I tell them or not. Are you clear on everything I just said?

His response: I believe so

and I hung up.

About 2 hours later I receive a phone call from my W at work. She said that OM just sent her an email. I asked her what it has said and she said she hadn't read it yet. I told her to forward it to me and delete it without reading. Not sure if she did the latter but I received the email about 20 seconds later. Here is OM email with my responses.

From OM to W

WOW�I am so sorry�it must have been a very difficult weekend for you�I hope you know that I never intended anything like this to happen�I don�t blame him for being angry because I would not want to lose you either�you are the one person I truly enjoy being around and look forward to seeing each day�I feel very comfortable and nervous around you and enjoy our talks�I hope this is not an end to our friendship but I understand if it is�just know that the only thing I was concerned about while talking with him was not making it any worse for you than it already is�whatever happens I hope you will always know how I feel�btw tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the first day I got to see you!!! Weird huh???

My response to OM

I wasn�t kidding when I said to leave my wife alone. She doesn�t want to see anything happen to our marriage any more than I do which is why she forwarded this to me. I am contacting your wife about this. After that, HR. I�m afraid if I do that you will lose your job and your family. I don�t want to see that happen to anyone but you are giving me no other choice. I will do everything to protect my family. W now realizes your true motives for your friendship with her. I�m going to give you an ultimatum. Since you will not leave W alone, the 2 of you can no longer work together. If you put your 2 week notice in by the end of the day today, I will not call your wife or HR. Otherwise I�m going to call both and let them take care of it. I�ve tried giving you a chance to back off and you didn�t take it. You have until 12:30pm today to respond with your answer(it was 12:10 when I sent this).

OM response to me

I completely believe you and don�t want anyone hurt either�I at least wanted to apologize to her and tell her that I understand how you feel�This job is very important to me because of my family�so I can be available to my kids in the evenings for there activities�I promise to not talk or email Stormy from this moment forward if that is what it takes�I don�t want her or anyone else hurt and I am sorry if my email upset her but I didn�t want to approach her and tell her that I understand but hope that we could at least be cordial�please consider this as I promise not to break hers or your trust and if necessary I can ask to be transferred to a new supervisor or another section of the building�sorry again

My response to OM

I will tell you that being cordial is not even an option. Saying hello is not an option. Looking at each other is not an option. I would consider moving to another section of the building at the very least, because I will not allow you two to work together. Originally W and I planned on her being the one to tell you all of this, but I thought you would take it more seriously coming from me. So far it doesn�t look like you are taking it seriously enough. You say that job is important to for your family. Your job can be replaced. Your family cannot. If they know about this there is a good chance you will lose them and your kids are at the age where they can resent you for it. I speak from experience of my parents going through the same thing. I�ve already found your wife�s name (holly) and your home number. I suggest you start fixing the problems at home rather than creating them for your family and someone else�s family. I still don�t know if moving to another section of the building is enough for me not to tell your wife and HR. I�m really a nice guy which is why I didn�t go to your wife first. But once I�m crossed I will be your worst enemy, especially when it comes to the most important thing to me, my family! I�ve tried giving you a chance and so far it has failed. At this moment I�m on the fence as to whether or not I�m contacting your wife and/or hr.


He called me after this. He said he is going to their supervisor and asking for a transfer. Not sure if he was bluffing but.. I told him that I know his supervisor very well (which I do, used to work with him) and that I will check with him tomorrow to see if this has occured. I told him that still may not be enough and that I will let him know later this week. The conversation was much longer but it was mainly him kissing my behind telling me he never thought of my W in that way (yeah right, then why was he sorry?) but would do whatever it takes to make it right.

I have since talked to some of my friends/old co-workers that now work there to keep an eye on the situation for me. I'm also going to get a paternity test just to be sure.

Oh, dear, not really the MB way. Hopefully it will work out anyway. One problem I see is that you told the OM that he was never to communicate with your wife again, or even look at her or you would expose at work and to his wife.

Then, a few minutes later, he emailed your wife. Hmmmmmm, so much for threats.

And the email could have said for her to please forgive him for his inappropriate talk, and that he will leave her alone. But instead he flatters the heck out of her.

You are very likely to drive them underground, with you being seen as the meany. He may also spin the story to his supervisor and his wife that you are an insanely jealous husband who is picking on poor little him.

believer, I see your point, I guess I didn't think about some of those things. The one thing I do have is written evidence, I don't have the main email but his work should be able to retrieve it and I have atleast enough to convince OMW who has already been expecting other affairs. As far as driving them underground, W was never telling me anything about it anyway. I had to find evidence of what has happened before I got anything out of her. And now that I exposed it, if she was still seeing him she definately would be hiding. But I can see how I have given him time to come up with alternate stories. Thanks again for the advice. I hope I didn't tank it! I guess emotions got the best of me.

There have been many on this forum who have described a situation like yours and then the BS finds out it was a PA. So people sound dramatic, but with justification <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. He is very disingenuous. The email he sent her is proof of that. He may or may not ask for the transfer. If he does ask for one, more than likely, he will not tell why.

You have not promised to keep his secrets for him. I cannnot fathom why you even want to keep his sectets for him. Why do you want to do his bidding, be his lapdog?? You can still go ahead and expose him to his workplace and to his wife.

His wife deserves to know what he is doing. That email he sent you W was a show of complete disregard for the ageement you were trying to establish with him. Again, why you would want to make any bargain with him is beyond me.

You are getting a paternity test. Doesn't that say something? Maybe it is all as your wife states. But you are concerned enough and I believe smart enough to get that paternity test. Expose him to his work and to his wife. Plan A your wife.

bhge, unfortunately you have handed the OM a weapon and given him a reprieve all the while neutralizing yourself.

He knows your battle plans so all he has to do is go further underground and you will be none the the wiser.

In the meantime, since he knows you have threatened to expose him, all he has to do is pre-empt you. Its real easy, they do it all the time. He will tell his W and his employer that you are an insanely jealous nutjob who imagines that all male coworkers are chasing your W. If and when you do call those ppl, you may find yourself thoroughly discredited as they look at you with pity and hope you get some help for your "mental problems."

I disagree. You'd be right if WW was still in FOG/Protect mode, but she's not.

You absolutely owned him, and he's in a state of shock. The fact that your wife forwarded that e-mail to you takes OM power away. A NC letter must be written IMO and sent to both parties and signed by you BOTH.

Your wife has claimed and proven she's on board with you by sending you his break of communication e-mail as proof. OM also wanted to test out your wife to see if this was all true and serious....and definately found out you...and her mean business.

Stick with her, Plan A, be a better person than you have been. Good luck man.

Beautiful! Holly must be told of his pursuit regardless.

No, he's not. What he is is FOREWARNED and ASSURED of secrecy. And forewarned is FOREARMED. bhge has made a bargain to help the affair by keeping it a SECRET. Affairs thrive on secrecy. bhge has just neutralized his best weapon. His best weapon was EXPOSURE and he just threw it away.

Without the OMW knowing, the OM is free to do whatever he wants. And bhge's wife may or may not resist, depending on her energy level that day. That is like sending the alcoholic into the bar every day and expecting him to resist temptation every day. It is a fools' mission.

DF,

Sure he handled OM pretty well, however, absent telling OM's wife (which likely hasn't yet been circumvented because OM thinks he's not going to expose him)...when OM looks back at this in a few weeks his thought will be:

"Whew...that was close, I better be more careful in the future".

NO consequences at home for his actions equals no consequences. He'll be free to play with fire again given ANY opportunity.

He'll just be certain to be more careful.

Maybe give WW some puppy eyes from across the cafeteria. Act devastated. Wait for her to approach him. Play all hurt. Complain some more about his marriage and try to get WW to apologize for the treatment her mean ole husband gave him.

It might take a week, a month or a year...but until you tell his wife...OM has not endured much of anything not to mention...YOU have become his co-conspirator...keeping HIS secret from his wife. She MAY just make him quit...thus, saving your wife's job as OM indicated he is NOT going to quit.

Mr. W

Mr. Wondering

DF - Thanks for the encouraging words. I know I haven't gone the route that most on her would have liked. It could have backfired if she was having a PA or if she really had an emotional attachment to him, but she is proving to me that isn't the case. You are also right that I shocked him. I talked to my friend (OM's supervisor) and he has asked for a transfer. He was testing my wife and she did exactly what I expected of her. She has told me she has no interest in him other than friends. OM called me today like he said he would to tell me that a transfer request was made. I "documented" the entire conversation. I asked him about why he made the "backseat comment" and the "10 dates" comments, he admitted to everything. I've also got him "documented" telling me he was in love with her but never told her. OM did tell a mutual friend at work about it and the friend told my wife she should probably stay away from him for a while (unfortunately she never told my wife exactly why or else W said the friendship would have ended then). With OM being "documented" admitting everything, I'm no longer worried about OM turning things around on me. I'm also not worried about W. She is on board with me 100%. Thanks again for your support.

I don't know if your state is a two party consent state or not so as a blanket recommendation I advise you to remove the references to "taping" OM above. It may actually be illegal in your state. Maybe use the word "documented".

Since your wife apparently wasn't involved with him I'm guessing she's in total agreement that regardless of OM following through...OM's wife's should be told.

It really is best for OM and his wife that his secret, unrecoited (sp?) love for your wife be known so that they can perhaps work on their marriage and avoid any future infidelity with the next fantasy love relationship he developes and pursues at work. Next time OM won't be lucky enough to have avoided it becoming physical. That MAY just save his butt...this time.

I know it seems extreme but you'd really be doing OM and his wife a big favor. The truth is not hurfull...the truth is helpful.

Good luck...I truly hope you are dead on with your assesment of their relationship. If you guys have the money you should consider a marriage builders weekend. Work on things. Affair proof your marriage.

Mr. Wondering

MrW - Again thank you for the advice. My wife has agreed to leave her job. We are in the process of looking for another job. It may take upto a month before she can get out of there, but she is leaving. More than likely going to go part time and stay home with the kids more. I never told him that because I don't want him to put heavy pressure on her knowing that she was leaving. He probably thinks he can let this boil over and maybe she'll go back to being friends with him in a month or 2. She will be gone by then. She doesn't want to leave her job but she did not argue with me when I asked. She has told me she will do everything I need to trust her.

I looked up our state law on phone taping

It is neither invasion of privacy nor eavesdropping to record a telephone conversation if the recording is accomplished with the consent of either the sender or receiver of the communication

So luckily what I did was legal. I appreciate you looking out for me MrW.

LOL...you're putting something in place I can understand. While OM is forewarned, I do agree OM's wife should know. That's why the NC or "Disclosure" letter from both Him and his wife is in order.

If OM gets a transfer, then great, bhge's better off and so is the situation. He bargained with him yes, but it is not enabling and "Affair" since his wife is transparent to him.

BUT......I'm not so sure there was not something going on in the time OM "Loved" WW. Don't believe OM. Don't believe WW right now even though she's playing ball. Make sure transefer happens. LET OM's WIFE know what he did.

One copy of that e-mail to HR should send om packing.......AND if there was more to the EA, he will likely end up defending himself with alike e-mails from WW saying it was consentual....if they exist.

Get the paternity test done. Keep your eye out.

RED FLAG HERE.

Why is she so quick to agree to leave? She's being awful compliant right now.

If there truly was nothing going on and it's a simple harassment case, logic would say there's no reason SHE should leave. She should be willing to take it up with HR herself.

I'm thinking she should fess up to the whole story.

This all could be a ploy. Something's not right here.