I need help. My husband had an EA 2 yrs ago with a coworker. This went on for several months before I found out. He left a message on our home computer to her and I found it. It was just on the screen, I had no clue. He told me what was going on and said it was over. I was devastated, we had been married for 23 yrs. She came on to him, needed a friend-he wanted to help her, she was unhappy in her marriage. He swore it was done and I believed him-her husband came to our house! Told me(us) it was still going on and that they had just met that day for coffee and he kissed her. This conversation took place with my husband present. He admitted he was attracted to her but knew it was not going anywhere-he didn't want it to. She had 2 children, one an infant.I will try to shorten this!! After several months of him trying to make it right with me he left his job for a new one. No more contact with her. Now to the present...I found out in October that he was corresponding with an old girlfriend that lives in another state. There was a message that had him refuring to them as just being a maybe in the future. He said it was nothing, fantasy. Her husband found out too. This has ended. My husband moved out 5 weeks ago because we can't get along. I want to make this work. He said he loves me wants to be with me but doesn't know if we can. He has a lot of guilt and remorse. Doesn't want to fight anymore. I found this site and have gotten the book HIs Needs Her Needs, we are both reading it. Where do we go from here? He won't come home yet. Thank you for reading this long post and for your help.

Hi Liaz

Sorry you need to be here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is a good place to get help in recovering your marriage though !

You say your husband is moved out - where is he living ? And is he behaving in a transparent manner while he is away from you ?

Did he choose to leave or did you ask him to ?

I am so sorry you have to go thru this. There are so many experienced people here who can help. you need to read EVERYTHING on this site, spend hours..or days... Keep reading and learning and sharing with him. Be gla dthat he's open to it, many of our spouse's are not open to it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That is such a good sign!!!! Read the book Surviving an Affair. I downloaded another that is helpful in some ways, its "How to Gain Forgiveness and Respect After Your Affair" by Katie Coston.

Do not give up... You need to open up to him, and truly connect. Do not fight! You need to implement Harley's pricipals <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. At the time he moved out we both agreed it was best. He is living in a rented room in a private residence-he is unhappy there, but unwilling to move back. I have told him that I believe the best way for us to work on our marriage is to be living together again but he will not move back. He says that he doesn't know if we can make it right again...that I may not be able to change-give him the emotional support he needs. I have told him that I will. I understand now since finding this site and reading the book!!! He is not convinced, wants to continue to live apart and figure things out. I now know that I was not there for him and haven't been for many years. How can I make it right if we are not living our life together?

guess ya can't MAKE him come back but that shouldn't stop you from being consistant in your efforts to try

An update.Please help...I have been in Plan A now for a few weeks. We are seeing each other a few times a week while he is living apart from me. That has not changed. He will not commit to returning home. What do I do? He has the book HNHN but I don't think he has been reading. He is living a single life, enjoying being alone, his friends and going to Yoga, his bike rides etc. When I have said that I want him to come home he says that he is not ready, not enough time has passed for changes to have been made. He says he loves me and wants our marriage to work but how can it if we don't live together? Should I begin plan B??? I am so confused. I know it will take time but I am miserable and he is not! Your advice is so welcome and needed.

Stay in Plan A.

Were there a lot of problems in the marriage?

It seems that he wants to be single, free, continue with affairs (past lovers or new lovers) and not be caught by you. That's why he wants "time" and "space" to "figure things out." In order for him not to get into more affairs, he has to move back home so you can monitor him and execute a good Plan A on him. Plan A doesn't work well when you are living sepeartely, because he can easily cake eating with you and having a girl friend on the side.

To sum it up, convince him to move back home asap.

liaz,

Could you fill in a few more details? How old are the two of you? Any children? Ages? What emotional needs does he think you won't be able to fill? What were the issues that may have made your marriage vulnerable?

Welcome to MB.

.

Are you helping enable your husband's separate existence financially or in any other fashion? If you are, stop that!

Do you have children? What is the status of his relationship with his parents and yours? Do you have a pastor who can get involved?

In short, you're being too brief in your discussion of your problem, Lia. Tell us more, so we can get a feel for your and your husband's marriage. In particular, tell us about why he left the home and whether he's with friends or family members. What is this "...we couldn't get along..." thing you mentioned in passing?

Tell us more, rather than less. You've got total anonymity out here--no one here can locate you among 300 million other Americans--so use that anonymity, okay?

Hang in there.

LH

We have been married so long-25years. Our marriage has had it ups and downs like any others but I believe we both have not met each others EN needs for many years. I also believe he is addicted to internet porn, which we have discussed many times in our long marriage. I do not agree with his use of it and have caught him many times. I should say that we have had a very good SL our entire marriage so I know that is not a problem. I am thinking that he doesn't want to give this up and by moving home he will have to, we have talked about it and he did agree to stop. I really hate to think that his not moving home is because he wants to continue to have or contemplate having affairs. I am an attractive women who runs a successful business,maybe not paying enough attention to my H! Should I give him a time frame for moving home while staying in plan A? What if he says no to a time frame? Go to plan B? Thank you for your help!!!!!

There isnt a timeline given in plan A. You are in control. Plan A is all about improving you, with NO EXPECTATIONS of him.

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!

So, what are you doing to change the time you spend together to demonstate to your husband that you will give him the attention (and time) he needs?

I'm not saying this will get him to come home. But when you want to negoiate him doing so, he will know you can meet that need. It will weigh favorably in his decision making.

25 years is a very long time, equating to a long history that cannot be ignored. This also weighs in your favor.

Jo

How do you know her husband found out? Did your husband say so? Why do you believe him? I wouldn't.

Also, its very likely the affair has NOT ended. I don't mean to alarm you, but its likely they have just gone deeper underground with the affair.

To start with, explore including in your plans exposing the adultery to OW's husband. He has a right to know.

Jo

You should be very suspicious about the end of his affair/contact with his ex-girlfriend. If they could re-start the fire after over two decades, what make you think that they could not restart after two months? Chances are they just go underground. Her husband needs to know that your husband is no longer living at home and FREE, especially on nights and weekends and alarm him to be suspicious of his wife being away, especially with any ladies night out or visiting family members.

.

Liaz....

Your situation sounds a lot like mine...my wife and I get along really well, have good conversations, nothing seems or feels strained, except that she doesn't want to move home, and doesn't want anything more than "friendship" right now....it's killing me! Do your best at Plan A for as long as you can/want.....give it your best shot.

You should also consider an appointment with the Harley's....it's about 200 dollars for 3/4's of an hour, but it sure feels worth it to me.

Be good, be strong....

Ron

liaz,

The (general) guidelines for Plan A are 3 to 6 months. It's very hard to fill needs without expectations for an indefinite amount of time....which is the point of Plan B. It's exhausting and often depressing to work so hard without results. Since he may continue to do harmful things....you should have a timeline in mind, or until you find that you are losing all your love for him. As much as you can.....you want to present the marriage as an attractive alternative to single life (or affairs). It would be ideal if he would move home....but you can't make him. So, you'll have to do your Plan A while separated....which is harder, but not impossible. It is a time where you can make self improvement....and those things will make you more attractive as well as prepare you if you need to go to Plan B.

Avoid relationship talks for now, and avoid weeping or begging. Also, I think he's at the ripe age for a midlife crisis, and so many of his actions are indicative of that mind frame. You may want to read some of Pat Gaudette's stuff about "How to Survive Your Husband's MLC". He seems less interested in one woman, as he is in pretending he's single and independent. So some research about MLC's may help you to understand what you're dealing with and how to approach it.

You say you think he's addicted to online porn. What makes you characterize it as an addiction? Does he spend alot of time online, or do you think he's just incapable of stopping?

Unlike an ongoing affair....Plan A (which is primarily designed to end an affair) is not as effective at dealing with an MLC. I would not advise a really long Plan A (which would normally outlast an affair) if you're dealing with an MLC instead. He may have many meaningless encounters....instead of one serious relationship. There are some really excellent resources that may help you out there along with the strategies here.

(((((((((((((((liaz)))))))))))))))

Yes he told me her husband found out. They never saw each other-EA-she lives in another state. It was phone email and text.
We have 2 DD's and a new GD. I am 47 look 37! LOL. H is 49 looks 39! We live 2500 miles away from our families. We moved away with our DD's 4 yrs ago. My H is a triathlete, spends a lot of time with friends who do same. I started running to join him occasionally but can not be at his level. He knows that over the yrs I have felt left out. We have not been there for each others EN for many yrs. We are extremely attracted to each other physically and that has never been a problem. His first EA was 2 yrs ago 6 months after his mother died-counselor said it was related to her death-he was always trying to help her. She died 2 yrs after his father left her for another women---after 45 years of marriage. They are not close. I hope that someone here can give me some hope. I just got off the phone with him(he called me)I told him that we needed to live together to work this out and he didn't want to talk on the phone. We are getting together tomorrow night so he wants to talk then. I told him I am a changed women. I cooked dinner for him this week-he loved it. I never cook. So I am really working Plan A.He has seen the change in me and has heard of my new understanding of his needs. I just don't know how this will work if he isn't here living. I do worry that with him gone he has more opportunity to start another EA or PA!! H.elp

Read all about Plan A, which is showing him what a great wife you can be. Work on changing anything that he complained about. Put a time limit in your mind for Plan A -you can pick any date - maybe Valentines day.

The fact that the SF is good is very hopeful.

Don't beg or plead with him to come back. Stay calm and happy and friendly. Don't tell him you are changed, show him your are. Smile, bat your eyes and flip your hair.

Most come back to the marriage, so have some confidence.

liaz,

The more details you fill in....the more this sounds like an MLC....instead of a typical infidelity situation.

Liaz,

I would strongly advise you contact the Harleys for a counseling session. They can tell you the best course of action using their principles. They can also start you on a plan that will give you pratical things you can do to survive and very possibly recover your marriage to a better one.

We are not professionals here and therefore cannot diagnose your husband's actions as one thing over another.

Click on "Counseling Center" to setup a coaching session, which is located to the top left, below the Marriage Builder's logo.

Just in case you can't locate it, here is the contact info:

Call toll-free 1 (888) 639-1639

Let me know if you need anything else.

God Bless,
Jo

Liaz,

Resilient is right....if you can....give the Harley's a call...it's worth the investment and the board is no substitute for professional help.

Here's a list of guidelines that may help you decide if you're dealing with mainly affair issues, or underlying issues that are typical of midlife as well. If it sounds alot like your husband, it will give you something to explore with your counselor and a place to do some research. The more you know, the more effective you can be.

1. Change for the sake of change. They feel unusually restless and express a feeling that they are running out of time. Sometimes they will just duplicate the same problem elsewhere. They can feel suddenly dissatisfied with their previous goals feeling like nothing they have been working toward really matters. For example, they no longer care about the promotion they've been working so hard to get.

2. Impulsive behavior and impetuous decisions, especially about money and/or their career. Faced with the sudden interest to live their life to the fullest, a man may decide that a new Porsche makes perfect sense (despite it being well outside of the family's finances and a decision he would have not likely made before the change in his behavior). He may decide that he absolutely must leave the job he was quite satisfied with just a few months before. Everyone changes in life but during a midlife crisis these changes can be extreme and seemingly come out of nowhere.

3. Questioning everything in one's life and saying that they "feel trapped." The later is easy to pick up with the terminology they'll use in everyday life, including "obligations," "no end in sight," "burdened." They feel that their job, family and everything else in their life is a never-ending series of demands on them.

4. Changes in the sexual relationship. Understand that this change can be the result of a lack of interest (whether from the stress, anxiety or depression associated with the crisis) or it could be hormonal (lower testosterone levels in the men). It is also possible that they are having an affair since that is another (albeit cliched) aspect of some midlife crises. There are a whole slew of things to watch for if you suspect your mate of having an affair including noticing a "wandering eye," unusual phone calls at home (hang-ups) or on their cell, and most importantly them just being around the house less. (Note: adding to the confusion, experts will note that an increase in sexual desire is also a potential sign of infidelity so the key is to note sudden and significant changes.)

5. Sudden obsession with appearance and spending inordinate amounts of time in the mirror. When a man who prides himself on his old t-shirt collection starts dressing for success and leaves the barber he has been going to for the past decade for a high-end salon, then it's time to take note of the underlying cause of his new found vanity. It could be nothing more than a desire to upgrade his appearance or it could be some much, much more, An appearance obsession can also be the sign of an affair.

6. Excessive reminiscing about their youth and previous loves. The Internet (especially Classmates.com) has been a boon for people to be able to reconnect with high school friends. However, more than a fleeting moment spent thinking about a high school flame and overly fantasizing about how great everything was then versus now or "what if" scenarios of major decisions they've made are all midlife crisis symptoms.

7. Increase in alcohol consumption. It's no secret that many adults will turn to the bottle when problems seem insurmountable. It can be hard to know what is going on in someone else's head but it is not so hard to see how many stiff drinks they down every night.

8. Sleeping more, loss of appetite, and general malaise. These are all signs of the type of depression that can accompany a midlife crisis.

9. Obsession with mortality. This can be triggered by the death of a loved-one or a close friend. Whatever it is, when the focus turns from the deceased to themselves and then lingers that is the sign of a problem.

10. Self-admission. They simply say, "I think I'm having a midlife crisis." This is far more common that many people think. Given the immense amount of media coverage on the subject, when someone starts to encounter the gut-wrenching feelings of a midlife crisis they will often be quite open in their pleas for help from people they think can help them. Midlife crises are not funny or fun for anyone involved.

Maggie,

Can you please post something else? Reply and show what is wrong with a post, don't just make an accusation especially to someone who is new to MB. They have no real clue about what you mean by a troll.

Please be a bit more understanding in your posts.

L.

Liaz,

You have gotten some good direction from Resillient, Star*fish and others. Please read their posts carefully and give heartfelt consideration to their recommendations. Let us know what baffles you or any other questions you may have.

The suggestions to get a good MC or better yet call Steve is good. Reading SAA and HNHN is a good start.

Learn about plans A & B, then let's talk.

take care,
L.

I'm not sure I fully agree with the venerable Starfish here for once <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Squid's affair was driven primarily by her turning forty - a MLC.

Plan A worked very well in that situation when coupled with exposure.

I don't see anything more difficult about an MLC-driven affair than any other kind of affair to be honest. All affairs are triggered by SOMETHING then reality is corrupted by the wayward mind :

For example most affairees have a voluntarily exaggerated sense of entitlement and a deliberate repainting of their life's positive content in order to "justify" their wayward behaviour in their own mind.

I do agree with Starfish over long plan A's though. People forget that Plan A is an affair-ending tool, not a perpetual doormat lifestyle.

Plan A must end and become plan B if the A hasn't ended within a fairly short period. As Dr H says :


* sigh * I hate affairs. Thank God for Marriagebuilders.

Orchid, I replied to you on my thread, if you care to read it.

My H and I got together last night and talked again. He is still not moving home. He says that he doesn't think we are ready, still concerned about arguing and he has anxiety when around me. He cried said he loved me but still doesn't know if our marriage is fixable. He likes not making decisions about our life..says that he is tired of it all. I was relentless about his EA that happened over 2 yrs ago, constantly talking about it,questioning him, being suspicious and trying to understand it. Then the next EA..2 months ago. I did not know all I know now about having a great marriage and what I needed to do for him. He is apprehensive about my "changes" since finding this wonderful site. He doesn't want to spend all his time with me like I want to with him, it hurts. He is going to a party tonight with one of his friends, I had invited him over but he declined,chosing insead to go to the party. I guess I will continue to do the best plan A while living apart-he did say that he would like to try to get together more than we have, maybe one more night a week. A good sign perhaps. There is a part of me that so wants to say just forget it!! To stay away from him so maybe he will WANT to be with me. I have not contacted him today. Any thoughts on this latest development? Thank you all so much.

Maggie,

Yes I posted to you and then a war or words ensued..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Seems a lot of misunderstanding was being handed out.

I tried to explain it on your thread but who knows how that will be taken.

Still it is important you heal in the way that is best for you and your family.

I don't plan to post anymore to on your other thread. The reason is that I don't want you to think I am trying to control you. I have not and will not. It's not my style.

take care,
L.

Liaz,

Have you noticed how your WS babbles? He talks in circles and then doubles back again? Carrying a decent conversation is hard, right?

Then there's the fact that your mind and heart are not in sync. It will be, but for now it is divided.

Let's get you a personal and M recovery plan ok? Let us know when you are ready. This plan will help you put your best foot forward and give you back the power that belongs to your family and squish the WS and A. Then it will only leave your H and then you can decide if you want him back or not.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

If you have time could you pop over and read some of the online converstaions I am having with WH and see if there is anything else I could be saying that would generate a response. Some good ole RB

I would appreciate it.

SG,

Will do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Going to drop son off at his friends house than I will take a look see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

thank you kindly

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Should I ask him again about his ending the EA?(He said it was when I found out 2 months ago) I saw a text that he wrote saying he would not contact her again at that time. I have not contacted the OW or her husband -just taking his word that it was done. He acts so confused about us that I wonder if he is still in contact with her and maybe that is why he still will not move home? I don't want to make things worse as we have been getting along very good lately so I'm not sure if I should ask him again if it is really over? Maybe it will make us take a step back? She lives out of state.

Does OW's H know that your H is out of the house? If you have the OW's H's cell phone, work phone, or email, why not just call him to get an update or just to ask how they're doing. Make sure he knows that your H is out of the house and free.

I don't know how much either one of them know. I don't have OW's H phone #'s or email. I have her work phone # only. We live on west coast-they live on east coast. I have not talked to her.

Do some searching and try to get his phone number. He needs to know what is going on. There probably IS still contact, and the fastest way to end it is to expose the affair.

I am in such a horrible state right now. I just got off the phone with my H and he says that he does not want to be with me! Wants a divorce. I asked him why-we seemed to be going in the right direction. I have learned so much from this wonderful site, I have been doing a great plan A,he agreed with me but says that he just doesn't want to continue. He was just going through the motions. He says that he has been horrible to me and it can't be fixed that the fight is gone for him. There is no other P in the picture. What in the world do I do now? I can not stop crying. We have been married for 25 yrs! Is this when plan B starts? I want to fight for my marriage-I love him. I asked him if he loved me and he said I will always love you-he was crying. I said but are you in love with me and he said I don't know anymore. Please help me. I am desperate and I am a mess.

Plan B should not start when you are an emotional wreck.

We need to get you out of that mode and back in control so you can enter a good plan B.

1st of all, that's the WS babbling to you and you are buying it. STOP IT!!!!

2nd, go identify your boundaries. Learn to reverse babble so when he spouts off like that you can give him back his guilt. It will reduce the hurt and you will be able to function better.

3rd, please go see a doctor and ask for any anti-d's that may help. Let your doctor know you are dealing with a WS and an A.

Try this.... when u r feeling down, find a quiet place. Then put your left hand over your right shoulder and your right hand on your left shoulder.....then squeeze. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There, you've just received an MB hug from me 2 u! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

{{{{Hugz to you and your family}}}}

take care,
L.

Orchid you are wonderful. I took a xanex to sleep last night. It is now after 5 in the morning. I wrote him a long email last night and told him that I will not give up on us,that I love him and will do whatever it takes to get us back. We have a history. He just seems so depressed. I asked him last night if he will make an appointment to go to his therapist that he saw 2 yrs ago and he did say yes. I am just so devastated. He was so clear that he doesn't want me, doesn't want to be with me anymore. So now I will give him space, not call no text and no emails after the one last night. Is this the right thing to do? I did say in the email that maybe we could just date-no pressure. He had wanted to do that before all my talk of him moving home. I think I put too much pressure on him to come back home. Do you think I should just leave him alone? He talked of all his efforts to make things right after his first ea 2 yrs ago-I would not accept his efforts, would not let up on my hurt and outrage of his betrayl. So much of that I regret now. Is this really the end for us? I don't know how to go forward. I have to work and I am so emotional, afraid of braking down at work-I manage over 45 people. I need to be strong. I will contact my dr. to get anti depressants-I have a history of depression and have taken them in the past. Please give me advise on where to go from here with him. After we hung up last night I called him back after a few min. I could tell he was on the phone but he answered- I asked him who he was talking to and he said his friend-I asked him if he told him of our conversation and that it was of over and he said yes-he told him we will get divorced. He seems so sure of his decision. I know that so many people are going through so much from reading here -I am trying to understand but right now I am lost.

Liaz,

Have you noticed that when you pressure with questions, you get disappointing answers and this sets off your depression? It is a vicious cycle.

Please read up on plan A, work on you for now and stay away from the babbling WS. If he is saying stuff to friends, then you ought to start letting friends and family know also. It is called exposure. Ask for their assistance. Expect him to get angry and spew more babble. Later you will realize that his babble is just that....unsubstantiated.

Secure your finances and get into MC w/someone familiar with MB concepts or call Steve @ MB. Steve does phone counseling.

Get a plan and stay away from the WS spew (aka: babble). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thank you so much. I have had no contact with H since I sent email-he did not respond. I can't help feeling that he is in contact still with the OW out of state. I feel that maybe that is why he is acting in such a fog and wants to end it with me? Do you think I should contact her? I have her phone number. I am trying to find out her husband's name too. I have not spoken with her. Do I just continue this darkness? I know it has only been 2 days but he sounded so final obout us. Please tell me your thoughts on contacting her-Thank you

My sister called the OW. Asked her about my H and she said they were not in touch. The OW said my H and I had problems in our marriage that had nothing to do with her. She implied that I would know that she was not the problem. So now I am left wondering if he has started something new with a different P or if in fact he is telling me he wants to end us because he can no longer take the fighting and mistrust, which is what he has said all along. I am so confused by his reasons for ending our marriage of 25 yrs, just because he wants to be alone?!! He does not want to try to work this out. I will go on and I will not communicate with him-maybe he will realize what he is missing and wake up. He will have to contact me in the future to work out a LS or divorce. I am paying all the bills at our home and he is paying his own for his rented room. He has no money and I know he is not happy living there so I guess he will try to find other living arrangements. We have a lease here until June-then I will decide where to go. I can not afford this on my own. Wish me luck. I do still have hope for our marriage-am I crazy?

I have been posting in emotional needs threads because I was convinced that there was not a OW. WRONG!! I feel so stupid. There is a OW. Not the one he was talking to out of state!!! A new one. I looked up his phone bill and found all these calls to one number.

I should back track a bit..After saying he wanted nothing from me as I posted above, that he wanted to be alone, he started to come around again. I had been working a serious plan A. We were talking and seeing each other and he was seeing the changes in me. BUT..it just did not add up-everyone kept saying he was exhibiting classic fog. YES!!
After our phone call with him telling me he didn't want "us" I called him back and he was on the phone. Well, when I was checking his phone bill I saw that this same phone number was the one he called right after he hung up with me!!!!! It was her!!! He was telling her that he told me we were done.

Yesterday I called her-looked up this phone number and there was her picture at a Pilates studio. I asked her if she knew who I was and she said no I said Bob's wife-she replied he is seperated. I asked how do you know him and she said from running(he is a triathlete). I just said ok that is all I needed to know and hung up.

I called him and ranted really ranted about his lies and his girlfriend. I lost control. I had been in such denial. I met him last night to talk and I was so calm. I told him that I loved him that I knew he loved me and I wanted to fight for our marriage. He cried...said he did love me but is so messed up-doesn't know why. He told me he had been trying to cut it off with her----she was becoming too needy!!!He told me that he was going to call and tell her NC. He says that he did not sleep with her--another EA. They did things together like hiking running etc. So here I am. He sent me an article today on Emotional affairs, it was written by a W trying to understand why?? I wrote ack that I do understand-we need to move forward-we love each other. We have so much. He seems to be coming out of the fog. He is moving into an appartment with a friend this weekend-out of his rented room. Tomorrow night he is coming here to cook dinner with me. Baby steps? No LB's. I am working it. Any advice? This site has saved my life. Tahnk you all for your help and I really don't know what I would have done had I not found it.


me-47
dh-49
married 25 yrs
1st EA 2005
#2 2 months-sept/oct
#3 now

Not having a response to my last post I am wondering what else I should do? Having dinner with H tonight.

Do I ask him to write a NC letter to the OW? Do I even ask him any questions about her? I know he is trying but how will I know for sure that she is out of the picture? He is moving into a different apartment this weekend-him sending me the emotional affair article is encouraging but I want to go forward correctly-just let him talk?

Please any advise is needed. I am fighting for my marriage.

Stay in Plan A. Be pleasant and cheerful, with no angry outbursts or disrespectful judgments. Protect yourself financially.

Sounds like a midlife crisis to me. Continue spying if you can. And don't be surprised if one of these affairs is a physical affair.

Thank you believer! I know that I have been meeting some of his EN's and the OW has been meeting different ones-I know this just from my reading here and his actions. He has been sleeping with me but I know that it would be foolish of me to believe he has not been sleeping with her too.

I have been so sucessful with plan A that I think he is now questioning his relationship with OW. He sees the changes in me. I just don't want to get into the cake eating with him because I think that has been happening for him this past month.
He is starting to come around but not yet ready to commit.
I will continue to spy-not easy with him living away, work computer and my only method is to get into his phone bill.

Of course I just found out about the OW 2 days ago-so much of his behavior is clear to me now because I know about her.

My real concern is him having both of us meeting his needs. Should I ask him to write a NC letter? Or just trust him when he tells me it's done with her? I guess I could find out with phone records again.

Thank you so much!

You would consider trusting him?!

My opinion is that a NC letter and an agreement to transparency is essential for recovery to begin. Until the WS is willing to end all contact and have it verifiable, you are still dealing with a wayward mindset.

He is unlikely to agree to NC at this point liaz, continue Plan A.

You are right-how can I consider trusting him!

I will ask him tonight to write a NC letter and agree to being transparent. He told me yesterday that he was going to tell her it was done with them. What do I do if he says he told her? What proof could I have? Do I call her and ask???

I don't want to make things worse while I am trying so hard in plan A.

Thank you Tyk.

The "proof" is in a NC letter written by him and sent by you, then him allowing you to verify NC through whatever means you require to satisfy yourself. Things like phone record access, email account passwords, keylogger software on computers, complete accountability of time, etc.

Here is my update fron our dinner last night- I asked him to write a NC letter and he said he would but then he told me that he doesn't know if this won't happen again with someone else! I am heartsick. He keeps telling me he is not well-that he doesn't know why he is doing this. He needs help. Our MC appt is next week. He continues to tell me he loves me and can't imagine being married to anyone else.

I talked to him today and was pleasant-I asked him about getting together tomorrow and he suggested meeting for coffee int the morning before his bike ride. I said ok what about us going on a hike after his ride-he replied I was thinking of coming over later for dinner (not asking me to cook) we could just hang out. I said ok.

I then asked him if he had talked to the OW and he then said " I am telling her tomorrow to F off! I said oh are you doing that over the phone and he said no that he was going to do it in person! So....the reason for wanting to see me later was because he had planned to meet her-after his ride and tell her -but was not being honest in the beginning with me! He asked me is that ok? and I replied if that is what you want to do.

I want to go with him..is that crazy? I want to follow him..I want to see and hear this. I am sure he will not agree to it. Should I even suggest it?? I want to call him back and ask "where are you meeting"

Do I just stay back and hope he will tell me of their conversation? He told me that she was wanting more from him and that this was NOT a physical relationship.. I am so confused but I am trying soo hard to meet his needs.

Please any advise about this is needed. Thank you!!!

Telling her to F off "in person" is SO not necessary and to me, somewhat suspicious. Even if his current intention is good and up to your standard on what he needs to do, but once he sees her, she got a chance to convince him and to change his mind and it can lead to anther level of emotional connection and possible further deceit and continue of the affair.

BA

You are right. Should I ask him to not do it in person? With the reasons you have stated above? Maybe ask him to do it on the phone where I can hear him? Ask him why he feels it necessary to do it in person in the first place?????

I have a very hard time believing that it was not a PA. Wasn't he the one who made the move and kissed his co-worker after telling you NC? And in this case, since the OW wants more and I am sure she's putting herself out and he is not taking advantage of it? Has he always be honest with you about details of his affair without lying? There, you have your answer. Protect yourself and demand him to get tested for STD.

Do it over the phone with you there and not let her know that you're there is probably the best way. Make sure you let him know in advanced that he actually tell her to F off without sugarcoating it AND that he wants to be with you and be married to you only like he told you earlier.

BA

Thank you so much. I will call him now and tell him this is the way I would like him to do it. He is not answering his phone so I left him a message to call me. I will definately let you know what happens --I may need more help!!

He is meeting her. Will not change his mind. Says he needs to start being less of a nice guy with other women. He feels that this is the best way to help himself.

I told him of my concerns of her convincing him to stay, meeting his EN's and the possibility of her changing his mind. He said no- won't happen.

He did say that if she contacts him at all after this meeting that he will agree to any phone calls etc. I think necessary.

He did get angry with me. He is trying and wants to do what he thinks is best way to handle it and that being in person eye to eye!!

I'm scared this may back fire as he is still not committing to me. I will continue with plan A. Thank you for all your advise and I may need your help!!!!

Ho-hum, he is just being the typical WS, going by the textbook. You aren't going to be able to tell him what to do, so don't worry about it. Here is what the Harley's say -

"How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent."

He's agreeing to NC yet initiating contact. So, he obviously doesn't agree to the idea of NC. Once he does, he will agree that YOU set the terms for NC, not him.

Don't get sucked into his twisted version of reality.

You're welcome, Liaz. I can no longer help you, but there are many here who can. I believe your marriage is one of those that can definately be saved. Good luck to you.

BA

Thank you again BA,TYK,believer- He is meeting the OW right now. I met him this morning for coffee and he is so convinced this will help him by doing it in person- This is all so confusing to me. He said he will call me and he is planning on coming over for dinner tonight.

He told me today that he is so messed up in his thinking he doesn't understand why he needs these "friendships" with other women--he loves me so much. He knows that I can not continue on this way and he is worried that I will end us, find someone else if he doesn't get himself together.

I really don't know how some of you here can put on these 2 faces day in and day out. It is so draining-trying to be in a perfect plan A when with the WS and falling apart when not together-that is me. It seems so fake but I do understand that this will help him see that I can meet his needs and be the wife he loves. I feel like I am making progress and I am hopeful but wow it is hard.

One day at a time-I will post again to get some feedback after his meeting-how honest do you think he will be? I told him she will probley beg and cry and he said he didn't care. It is done, will be done.

Thank you-thank you thank you - I will say it again I don't know what I would have done without all of your help-and continued help.

LOL, he is going by the textbook. My WH met the OW in a hotel room to say "goodbye". He had to do it his way, get closure, be a man, blah, blah, blah. Needless to say, contact continued.

We are now divorced and he wants to get back together. But I am so DONE with him I can hardly stand to hear his voice.

Hope that doesn't happen to you.

Plan on continued contact.

See, if he really wanted to guard his relationship with you, he would make you feel safe. He would send her a no contact letter that you approved saying it was a mistake, it's over, and he loves you.

Instead he will tell her that he is sorry, he doesn't want to hurt her, what they had was beautiful, blah, blah, blah, leading her on, instead of ENDING the affair.

Why can't he say those things and STILL END THE AFFAIR? That is what he says he is doing. Is that not possible? I don't get it. Can't he be sorry for her and mean that and end it? And want to work it out with me and love me??????

Hi Liaz

There are two ways to end an A.

Slow and fast.

Fast is 'I was bad and we must not have any further contact'
Slow is "I don't want to hurt you but I can't leave my wife so we have to stop seeing each other'.

See the difference? Slow can last years depending on how determined OP is.

The A will eventually end either way.

But with slow you could run out of patience first.

Ok so the H met with the OW to break it off. He had told her he would help her move a piece of equipment and as I posted above he wanted to do it in person-felt it was what he needed to do. Wow..he does not see that as a mistake.

I tried calling him 4 hrs AFTER his meeting-no answer--I called again 45 min later--no answer. He called me back and was angry that I called him because "didn't I say I would call you??"I asked how did it go? (dumb I know) he replied what do you think. I asked if she cried and tried to change his mind and he said she cried and asked if they could still work out together. He started crying after I asked him why was she crying? did you sleep with her?? He got very angry and said NO! He was supposed to come over that night and of course I asked him to and he said no. He wanted to be alone.

He has said all along that this was not a PA but a EA. But my god why the tears from both of them?? I am sick and I feel like I can not go on with this any longer. He moved out Nov. 10th after I found out about his EA long distance with old girlfriend. So a few weeks later he starts this up with a new one. All the while saying he is messed up and doesn't know what to do with me!!!

We have a MC appt.(the first) this Wed. I will see what happens but I feel like this may be time for me to go to plan B- He sent me a text this morning-saying I hope you have a good day and I replied the same to him. No phone calls and I am not calling him.

Oh I almost forgot. After the call yesterday he called me back a few hrs later and was so angry he could not get into his cell phone bill on line to pay----because I got into it to find out about this OW last week. It was locked. Too bad.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advise for me?? How much are we supposed to take in plan A? For me it has been since Nov. and I am losing it. Thank you!

I see why I have had no response to my post as of yet. I reread my posts and I sound like an idiot. Of course I am in complete denial of what is really happening..several A's over the last few years and me asking why. BECAUSE I have not met his needs DUH..hello is anyone home here-I guess I am answering my own questions and it will ultimately be up to me to carry on in plan A or not. Maybe I have not given this enough time..but seriously I am weak. H is weak.

Has anyone- VETS? had a similar experience?

liaz...

you can without a doubt get a divorce and be done with this...

OR

you can make an internal commitment to yourself that you will try to plan A...really really well with no expectations.....

if you proceed with a divorce right now you will still be emeshed in the emotional drama...

so you could try plan A for three months with an exact end date to go to plan B....and emotionally free yourself from the drama even while plan Aing....

and then file ....

knowing you really tried...to show and create what the vision of a real marriage is...

that's what I would do...

blow him away with plan A...

things have been the same for so long beause your reaction to the affairs has always been the same....
why not shake him up a bit...
get his attention
think outside the box..

what is it you don't understand about plan a...

ARK

Thank you ARK. I will continue plan A. I am really doing pretty good at it-I think. I told him last night (he called me) that I was joining a gym, that I needed the social aspect of it instead of the solitary way I have been working out. He said "Oh yes you will get attention there" referring to other men-I am thinking GOOD! He can think about that.

I guess I'm not sure how to really shake him up other than this excellent plan A that I have not done in the past with his other EA/PA.

Any suggestions how to get his attention? I know that he is really attracted to me and that has never been a problem but I have just lost 15 lbs(because of all this) and he is really noticing-complementing me all the time.

I'd like to shake him up even more so any ideas would be welcome.

Thanks again.

liaz, I'm glad you're getting stronger, but you need to focus on non-physical aspects of your relationship. If you want him back, work on yourself. Learn to like yourself better, learn to feel you deserve better than just accepting what he is willing to give.

THEN, tell him you want him back, but on YOUR terms. Insist you start working on MB concepts together, counseling, etc., from a position of strength. I promise you, that new you will be an even more attractive you than the new 15 pounds lighter one.

My H seems to coming around and then it seems no. We have been spending time together and he slept over 2 nights ago. He has made comments that he knows I am trying and that he just doesn't know, he says he is scared that things will just go back to the way they were before.

I asked him yesterday what he did during the day and he really didn't answer me-I was at work. I had called him and he was on his phone-he didn't interupt his phone call to take my call-I called him back a few min later and said I tried to call you- you were on the phone-he said he was talking to his friend about going out to dinner. But he didn't think he would go-didn't have any money. This was in the afternoon-he asked me what I was doing that night- I replied getting a movie. he said well "I'll call you around 6, maybe we can get together"

He called me at 6:30 and said he had a movie-can he come over? I replied yes. He showed up at 7, made some food and then wanted sf. OK I'm thinking plan A. Give him what he needs. He stayed until 9:30. Today we are meeting to go for a run then a hike--these are his important EN's. I am doing the best I can. But....I have a feeling that he met with the OW yesterday before coming to me..Maybe he is NOT in NC.

I want to trust him and believe he is wanting to work this out but he is not being totally open and honest with me.
Do I ask?? About the possible contact with the OW? I do NOT want to LB but I need to know what is going on. I have a strong feeling.

Any suggestions? Do I not bring up this OW? Do I not question him or voice my concerns? I hope someone will respond before I go meet him this morning--Thank you so much.

Assume he IS in contact with the OW. Otherwise you will get your hopes up and they may be dashed. Just meet his needs for time together, and don't question him.

Now is the time to show him that you are the attractive choice.

And you only have to do this for a set time period - 3 months is good, and then there is another plan. Set a date in your head so it will be bearable. Tell yourself you will continue Plan A until St. Patrick's Day or whatever.

I will assume there is contact still. I'm just not sure about the time frame. he moved out Nov 10. It has been about 3 months already. We have another MC appt. Tues. I feel like he may be cake eating at this point and I feel sick about this.

He really does not talk much to me about his feelings or his life for that matter. It seems like I am his friend that he needs to have SF with and I am meeting some of his needs. Because of the seperation it has been so hard to meet his needs and show him with my actions the changes in me.

I suppose I should be encouraged with the time he is spending with me but knowing he is also(MOST LIKELY) spending time with OW kills me inside. At times I just feel like saying I cannot do this anymore. Normal feelings I'm sure. Thank you believer for answering my post and I will take your advise and not question him. Do you think another 2 months is reasonable for plan A?

How long have you been doing a good, solid Plan A?

I'm a little confused. Do I have different rules in my mind? Is she supposed to be having him expose the affair? Or does that not happen because he's not staying with her? How is this supposed to work?

Catperson - You are exactly right. Thanks for catching that. A big part of Plan A is EXPOSURE. The affair needs to be exposed to his family, her family, friends, and anyone else that has influence.

That's what I thought. He is suffering no consequences and having to own up to nothing! Not to mention, he's likely still seeing the OW. I wouldn't be doing crap for him in that situation, if he were my husband.

Honey, go back and read the rules. You have to hold him accountable and make him promise to own up to it. You will never be able to move forward without the exposure. Why should he? Heck, you're still giving him sex, and he's done nothing to earn it.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I so appreciate it. I have been in plan A for almost 2 months. Exposure has been done. OW is not married. Today at our MC my H stated that we were seperated and he didn't even know if he wanted to stay married..so it is ok??? not so bad???? Horrible to me. I have not asked any questions of this A. trying hard to not LB!! But....help.

I had my first counseling appt. tonight alone with a different counselor. It blew me away!!! I feel so sad. I explained that H has had several EA's & A's and he told me that he doesn't think H will change!!!!!!!!!!! Could this be true? OF course he explained why and said I was blaming myself..not my fault...I explained that I feel that if I meet his needs maybe it wouldn't happen again. He said it was highly unlikely. He has a pattern over the years and I have allowed this to go on. I need to become strong and know that I deserve better..to be loved and cared for..that I have been abused!!! WTF??? What about plan A?

Can anyone help me? Anyone have this situation and made it? Had a better marriage? The C said I should ask questions at our next MC "do you think H can stop? He wants me to see him weekly and continue with MC with H too. He wants to help me become strong so that I can face that this marriage is likely over.

Help>>>>>>>>>>

My WW and I met with Michelle Weiner-Davis (author of Divorce Remedy) for 2 days a few months ago, and she said that individual counseling is the number one predictor of divorce. She said that because of an ICs training, they simply try to help patients be strong and move to a point/place in their lives where they will be happy. If your marriage is causing you to be unhappy, then it would stand to reason that the IC would direct you away from it.

ok that makes sense but I can't help but think that there may be hope and he really made me feel like I was in denial!!

Can there be hope for us?