First, I want to say the reason I am doing this by letter is that all relationship talk between my WW and I have broken down. She shuts down and becomes argumentative and difficult. She just wants to act like nothing happened. So I decided to try a letter. My WW and I promised each other that we would not seek a divorce or go to an attorney without the other ones knowledge. Let me know what you think.

LETTER:

WW,

I started to write you a detailed letter talking about our marriage, your and my behavior, honesty and trust, lies and secrets, mistrust and respect, privacy versus secrecy and so forth and so on. And then I realized it just didn’t matter.

So instead I will leave you with this. I love you. No matter what you do or what you have done, I will always love you, but after your most recent indiscretion I don’t believe there is much of a reason or way for me to stay married to you. Whatever remaining hope there was for us or that I was holding onto is fading away. I feel there is nothing left I can do. If we are to survive as a couple and as a family, the burden will have to shift to you and it will have to shift quickly. I can not wait any longer for you to “S#!+ or get of the pot”. For our daughter’s sake I will keep the door open for us to possibly reconcile. But I can not sit idly by and wait for you to do something that by your own admission your heart just doesn’t feel like doing or that you have not been willing to do for the past four or five years (if not longer). I do not wish to live in the dark or wait for the next “shoe to drop”. Because you have your own definition of what is and isn’t appropriate behavior in a marriage I do not wish to sit at home wondering what you are doing while you go off for a weekend trip, a night out with friends or what you are doing while you are at work. I am not secure in this relationship nor should I be.

I have a life that I am missing out on and it is time for me to move forward and embrace that life. I can’t make you change; change has to come from within. I feel good about my efforts to save our marriage. I feel confident that nothing I could have done would have changed the outcome, but I am glad that I tried anyway. By your own words and actions you were not invested or committed to saving our marriage. I walk away knowing I did everything I could.

While I am disappointed and saddened by the choices you have made and the things you have done, I still have strong feelings of affection and love for you. It would be easy to just keep doing what we have been doing, but after this last event, something has to change and something has changed in me. The only thing I can do is to say “no more.” I do not have the right to tell you what to do, or to give you ultimatums. All I have the right to do is say; this is unacceptable to me and what I want from a partner, a friend, a mate, a lover and in a marriage. You knew that before you did the things you have done and yet you chose to do those things any way (not once, but twice). So I don’t need you to say that you no longer want to be married to me. Sadly, I think you already have.

My hope is that you and I can talk about this soon and begin making plans for the future. If this is to end, I would like for us to work together so that this is as painless as possible, not only for us, but most importantly for our daughter. But if you continue to do nothing, I will be forced to move forward without you. While I am still open to us working on saving our marriage, I have no plans to initiate this reconciliation. I leave that completely in your hands.

Love,

Grovetuckyohio

She is probably so emotionally detached and so utterly sick of this kind of relationship talk that she will toss it in the trash.

If you intend on filing for D, why not just do it and then tell her? Another long sentimental letter is just going to push her away even more. She is not interested in your feelings, but just wants to be informed that you are divorcing her.

Mel, touche (as the hammer hits him in the head)!!

I guess the letter isn't for her, but for me. . .

right! It is good to get your feelings out, but you know how she will react. It won't endear you to her, GT. You know the score. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I know Mel, it's sad situation. As I've said many times before, she's all I have known. I've been with her since I was 16 years old. I held out hope this would fix itself. I blamed her behavior on everything from a midlife crisis, to "going through the change" at an early age and the hormone drugs, being diagnosed as adult ADHD. I kept thinking she was just going through something and then the light would go on and she'd be my wife again. Even if all those things were true. She still has the ability to know right from wrong and she chose to do the wrong thing again, without any thought or care of our marriage.

Worse yet, as I look back on our past, I'm not sure that she hasn't been doing these kinds of things from the beginning. And that would really suck.

GT, one thing you can take pride in is the fact that you have tried everything. Sometimes the definition of success is divorce and I suspect this may be one of those cases.

Just know this, there is LIFE after D, and you have a chance to make a GREAT life yourself in the future.

hi gto:

I don't remember everything, but are you 2 still living 2gether? If not, this shouldn't be particularly difficult.

But Mel is right, if DV is what you really want, then do it and tell her, not the other way around. necessarily.

Have you called SH recently?

I was surprised when I requested a session only just yesterday late afternoon, and already have an appointment for 2morrow morning!

When I confirmed contact never stopped with RM, and talked 2 several people about my options (she can have him if she's willing 2 let me go), I decided 2 give SH a chance 2 help me determine if she can be approached *one* *more* *time* before I file.

-ol' 2long

GTO,

When I see your name, I think that you must live near me. Are you near a river???

Anyway, Jennifer has worked with me on some letters, and she may be able to help you too. Basically, offer a new life of honesty, trust, mutual love etc and suggestions for doing it. No sappy I love yous etc. State that she has to end it with OM, but no blaming etc.

If you can do a session with either Steve or Jennifer, it is money well spent....

Good luck

2long, we are still living together and sleeping in the same bed (no hanky panky though). I was advised early on by my attorney to not leave the home. As for wanting a divorce, no I do not want a divorce. I am unfortunately in a situation where divorce is the appropriate next step. It's been a while since I spoke to SH. Nothing against Steve, but it wasn't very productive.

ChaiLover, I'm in the Columbus area. The Scioto River is reasonably close.

Mel, while I know that I hung on longer than I probably should have, I'm ok with that (sorta).

Well, you're "one-up" on me but with a very similar si2ation, then.

We're not still sleeping in the same bed, though we do have SF once a month or 2.

I felt that my prior session with SH was unproductive as well. I also felt that, from a marriage-recovery standpoint, all my other IC sessions and coaching sessions were also unproductive.

What had 2 happen for me happened just 2 days ago. I really did reach the end of my rope. I didn't hit bottom in the sense that I felt utter despair, like on and for a long time after d-day. Nothing like that at all. I finally, fully realized that I was responsible for my marriage being unrewarding for me, because I didn't want 2 upset the "pretty good terms" we'd come 2 by me ignoring contact (admittedly, I didn't really know for sure it was going on, but I did suspect).

And Steve really helped this time, because I was receptive 2 real help, finally.

Things can't go anywhere but up from here, after all! And I say that with the acknowledgment that your si2ation is probably very much like mine - not 2 bad, not 2 uncomfortable, financially stable.

Just not exciting!

I'm betting you'll find your voice.

-ol' 2long

I went ahead an sent the letter. I needed to get the ball rolling for my sake. If I didn't do this I would have just kept going home and ignoring that I needed to push this towards an end. I think my wife will ignore it and I will have to go ahead with filing on my own, but surprising I'm ok with that.

2long, my last couple conversations with SH revolved around getting my wife on the MB plan, which she had no desire or willingness to do. He was talking to the choir and at a pretty high dollar cost. I've been seeing an IC for a while now, it's ok, but to be honest, more than anything it gives me someone to talk to every couple of weeks or once a month.

I'm not really sure what to expect tonight when I get home from work. Most likely it will be the same old same old. We'll see . . . I'll let you know if there is any fireworks.

GTO

My daughter had a birthday party to go to. I got home as WW was leaving to drop her off. She came home, didn't mention letter for a little while than said that she had read the letter. I said that's good, do you want to talk about it? She said yes. Nothing very new, she said she loves me, but that she just lost respect for me after I kept spying on her and she's not attracted to me in a romantic way anymore. I said I realized that and that is one of the reason that I felt that it was time for me to move on. She cried . . .

Long story short, it ended in her saying she didn't know how to fall back in love with me and she didn't understand how I thought I could ever love her again after everything she has done. I said it's because I believe people can fall in love again and that there is a plan that I believe that has helped me through this situation. Sooooo

We watched the MBs Infidelity DVD together. Yep that's right she finally agreed to check out the MBs information. It was a tiny step, and I'm still planning on going through with the divorce, but if she is truly willing to call SH and work on our marriage using the MBs principles, I think I should be willing to give it a shot. What do you think???? I'm not looking for just talk, I need to see action from her. We'll see what she does next. It's in her hands now, I've made my decision and I need to stay the course.

I have to go, I'm it's a father/daughter day as my wife is at a scapbooking all day thing.

You know, GT, that is a GREAT development, but I suspect she may have offered it to hold you off a while longer. As you said, you need to see some ACTION.

EVen more importantly, she needs to see some ACTION from you and see that you do mean business. Because if you are all talk, then I suspect she will be too. For that reason, I agree very much that you should go ahead and file.

That doesn't mean that you won't give her an OPPORTUNITY to demonstrate that she can change! But I would put it like this: I will give you an opportunity to demonstrate your changes and if the changes are sufficient to support a marriage, I will consider stopping the divorce action.

That way, you don't lose no matter what happens and are not left in limbo land anymore. If she does demonstrate change, then you can stop the divorce. If not, you can go through with the D and get on with your life. Either way, you come out ahead of where you are now.


She is still very deep in the fog and continues to demonize you for catching her. That tells me she still has the wayward mentality. You are wise to go forward with your plans, GT.

The ball is in her court, GT. Lets see if she can step up to the plate.

100% agree with what Mel said

Fortunate timing on the scrapbooking class. Scrapbooking is all about family, romance, sentiment. Well, she took a tiny step forward at least.

I am no expert, but I think that Mel is right. As harsh as it sounds, I don't think she knows what she wants and therefore is "hedging her bets."
My DH told me that had I caught him before, he would have done a little to try to save it, but only because he wasn't sure what he wanted to do and wanted to keep his options open. He has recently admitted a 4+ year A but now says that he knows that he wants our marriage. And his actions prove that.

Stick to your gut...not your heart. Make her prove it. She is guilty until proven innocent at this point. She really sounds like she is where my DH was...not ready to commit.

Well, I agree 3.86%, and no more.

What's the rush? Are you in some kind of emotional agony?

I say work with her. She watched some MB stuff with you and says she'll talk 2 SH?

So, keep this going. You haven't started DV proceedings, and I see no reason you can't at some point go forward with them if this doesn't pan out.

At the very least, find out what SH thinks before you go ahead.

-ol' 2long

I don't think a spouse needs to be in 'emotional agony' in order to effect change

in fact-

I think if one waits until they are experiencing emotional agony - it takes a huge toll on the marriage

GT, stick with your plan. You are on the right track. There is no reason to make "emotional agony" a way of life. Unless you are a masochist or a fool, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've changed my mind.

2.03%

The "toll on the M" has been taken. If gto's sitch is anywhere near what mine is, he isn't approaching any emotional agony - it's waning, possibly a long time ago.

"Disappointment" is probably a better word. Disillusionment is another possible fit.

Getting the FWS talking 2 SH is one of the main goals here. "Change" from the stalemate. Who cares who affected it?

gto ain't no fool, Mel. And neither am I, thank you very much.

-ol' 2long

yep, GTO isn't a fool, because he has a plan and has made a decision to not make emotional agony a way of life.

Stick to the plan, GT, you are on the right course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why do you consider watching the video together a tiny step?

Did the two of you discuss the video afterwards?



Getting an appointment with Steve isn't difficult. Did she say she was willing to talk with Steve and does she have the contact info for MB counseling?

If you know what your and your wife's schedule is for next week, can you contact the Harleys and set up an appointment for the two of you to talk with the them? You could probably make the appointment this coming week, tell your wife the date and time and then you can see this week whether it was talk instead of action.

You can proceed with your choice to divorce, but you can also include the possibility of your wife's positive actions in the in the meantime, can't you?

Do you make this nonsense up as you go? You cobbled this 2gether from my term "emotional agony" which I used 2 describe the feelings a newly betrayed spouse feels, and your "way of life" comment, which makes no sense with my term because "emotional agony" describes the past, and gto isn't feeling that way now.


The foolish thing 2 do would be 2 file without seeing what his W does now. She made several big steps all at once, and you want him 2 essentially ignore them.

gto, I would offer 2 make the appointment for her. SH suggested I do the same thing, after I give my W the choice as 2 whether 2 do it herself or have me do it for her.

How old are you? How long have you been married? Do you know how easy it is for long term marriages 2 get exactly the way you've described your W feels about it?

Give SH a little credit for knowing what 2 say 2 start changing her mind, when your W calls him.

Sheesh!

GTO,

I remember a long time ago someone here said "You have a lifetime to divorce but only a short while to save your marriage"

Sometimes the window of opportunity is short lived.

Blessings.

S&C

GTO wrote:



He wrote that post - 08/12/05

I bring this up because I want to point out that GTO has not been known to make rash decisions. And no one is advising him to do so.

Exactly, Pep! I should add to that that Dr. Harley told GT some time ago to file for divorce. Steve helped him with a plan afterwards and still he finds himself where he is today. He has BTDT. I think he is exactly correct to pursue his plan.


Wow, how rude! But no, 2long, it is not a term confined to a "newly betrayed spouse," but to most betrayed spouses who are living in limbo he11 with repeated contacts. Perhaps you noticed that GT is not here because he was singing too loud in church, but because of his despair. That he has been enduring for years. That is why he is filing for divorce. [also, Dr. Harley told him some time ago he should file for divorce] Just because you have become ACCUSTOMED to living like that, does not mean others can. OR SHOULD.


No, the foolish thing would be to CHANGE HIS PLANS BASED ON EMPTY TALK NOT BACKED UP BY ACTION. Talk is cheap with a wayward. And if his wife thinks she can throw him a little crumb to keep her live in babysitter, then I suspect she will. If he changes his plans, it should be based on ACTION, not empty talk. He can file for D, which will give her TIME to demonstrate any changes. If she can successfully demonstrate changes, he can always stop the D action.

With that plan, he wins either way. If he changes his plans based on some empty talk, I seriously doubt she will change a thing and he will be right back where he started: with nothing.

It would be foolish to play this same game again and again, 2long. He has been doing this for years. She most likely will not do anything unless she sees action on his part. Like I said before, emotional agony was not intended to be a way of life.

Also, he already counseled with Steve and with Dr. Harley {it was Dr Harley's opinion that he should file for D] some time ago. He still finds himself at this place. Hopefully his wife will follow through and contact Steve. We will see. I hope for his case she does.

Stick the plan, GT. You are finally on the right track! Don't change your path [b]UNLESS SHE DOES!

Mel:

Sorry for getting so frustrated with you, but you were insinuating that gto and I are fools.

Also, I'm absolutely certain that I'm in no "emotional agony" whatsoever, and I really don't believe that gto is either (correct me if I'm wrong, gto).

Pep: I re-read that thread you quoted of his, and I can understand what was being said 2 him then about his W hearing what she wanted 2 hear from SH. I felt that my W was doing the same thing 4 years ago - with her ICs and with her 2 calls 2 Penny.

I really just wonder what mrs gto might be able 2 hear now, if she calls SH.

-ol' 2long

actually - I think Mel's response was unlikely to be about you perse - and was likely personal .... her veryownmomma lived in a chronic state of emotional agony when Mel was a little girl

I think situations like this hurts Mel in the gut -

so, you might take any of my comments and interpret them as an insult toward you - but I assure you - this discussion is not about you

Pep:

Fair enough.

But my W grew up in a chronically uncomfortable si2ation (with an abusive alcoholic father and a co-dependent mother) as well. I really wish she hadn't used an LTA 2 drown her pain from that experience, but she did.

I don't know how similar gto's W's background is 2 my W's, but I was empathizing with him about his W's reaction 2 his email about wanting a DV.

I read "frustration" in2 gto's recent posts, which is what I've felt for a long while. I don't feel desparate at all, though. Which is why I wondered about the plan 2 go ahead with the DV even if Mrs gto is saying she's willing 2 talk 2 SH again.

Is having a WS coaching with the Harleys no longer thought of as a big step in the right direction around here? Yes, she's done it before (my W has done it before, 2, though not with SH). Maybe she'll be more receptive this time?

I dunno, really.

-ol' 2long

GTO,

I remember you from a long time ago. A couple of quick comments:

>”…but after this last event,…”

What last event? What is this? Another OM? A ONS? Broken NC? A bloody argument about what she should be doing or not doing? How important is whatever this is to you? How important to her? IMO, this euphemism is more than a trigger to you. It could be what suddenly decided things. You should understand this event and it's importance thoroughly.

You know what they say about timing:

“Timing may not be everything, but it’s way ahead of whatever is in second place.”

Wait, that’s what they say about money.

But time is also money, or whatever is used as specie these days.

GTO, D or not on your schedule, not any MB posters’. Figure out what is optimal for you and schedule it for the optimal time. Your optimality may be financial driven. It may be family and children driven. It may be a one last opportunity for the wife you still love driven.


To some, 2Long and you appear to be in completely different time zones, but you may not in fact be all that far apart.

2 ‘s wife is actually making slow and certain progress extracting her haid from her, um, clouds. She is showing action without talk. Her recent contact is isolated, incidental to her profession and was short and curt. Sure it hurts 2, mostly the secrecy, as it would most BH, but upon reflection is not a show stopper for 2. It is a lever, if used as SH has counseled 2 to use it.

> “Worse yet, as I look back on our past, I'm not sure that she hasn't been doing these kinds of things from the beginning. And that would really suck.”

This does not immediately differentiate you either. I bet most WW have done it before to one degree or another. 2 and I can both say this about our wives. And they both had VLTAs too.

We all agree if your wife is an unrepentant serial adulterer you should protect yourself and your children. That can be D, or it can be getting on board with MB methods like POJA and even Plan B (and I suppose some serious IC). But, you will not know one way or the other unless she starts telling the truth to you. Her adopting MB methods for a fulfilling marriage is a very good way to move in that direction, even if she starts out unwilling.

What does differentiate you from 2 is your apathy. You are giving up. The Harleys, and many other experts, say once the BS gives up, once the BS definitely does not love the WS (or FWS) any more it is all over but the shouting. Nothing, not even MB will fix the M then.

> ”Long story short, it ended in her saying she didn't know how to fall back in love with me and she didn't understand how I thought I could ever love her again after everything she has done. “

As you wrote yourself, this is what MB is good for. More than breaking up an affair. More than controlling outcomes. More than hope. It’s about a lost, confused and even unwilling WS falling back in love with a BS anyway, if that’s what the BS wants.

> “We watched the MB Infidelity DVD together. Yep that's right she finally agreed to check out the MBs information. It was a tiny step, and I'm still planning on going through with the divorce, but if she is truly willing to call SH and work on our marriage using the MBs principles, I think I should be willing to give it a shot. What do you think????”

I think jump on it. I think keep the pressure on. I think follow through, strike while the iron is hot and the old college try. I think similar metaphors and analogies.


Do you still love her?

Is failure of one last well oiled chance too much for you to suffer?

If not, call SH.

If yes, move on with all our blessings.

But think it through, have a plan and do it when the time is right for you.

With prayers,

Appy:

You said that better than I did.

-ol' 2long

Hello everyone, sorry I've been off for a few days. I'm not feeling very well and have been laid up and not feeling like dealing with the relationship thing.

Thanks everyone for your insight and support.

Aphelion, I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure that I feel like I'm giving up since the first d-day was 1/28/05 and then recently I caught her making inappropriate emails with her junior high sweetheart.

Also, I think I implied that my wife was going to talk to SH, that was one of my actions that I wanted to see happen. Instead, she has made an appointment to see her own counselor who specializes with adult ADHD. I've met the counselor, as he is my MIL and BIL's counselor. My FIL thinks he is a good counselor as he doesn't allow his clients to blame other people for their actions. Still it's not SH.

As expected, after recieving my letter on Friday and the initial talk, not much else has happened between us.

So, for now I am sticking with my initial plan (for once). I told my wife in the letter that inaction on her part would not be acceptable and that I would file for divorce.

She thinks talking about things Friday night and scheduling a visit with a counselor is action. I do not. As Mel said, I can always stop the divorce if my wife makes some real change.

Thanks everyone, sorry if this is a little incoherent. I'm heading back to bed.

GTO

Okay, your call

2Long, thanks I need to check out your posts . . . I've been pretty selfish and I'm sure I could learn quite a bit.

I forgot to mention another interesting tidbit that is helping to keep me on the divorce path.

My wife is heading on a weekend ski trip with a couple girlfriends. She is leaving Saturday afternoon and will return Monday. She isn't concerned about her marriage, so why should I be????

Well, not 2 say that you shouldn't go ahead and file if that's what you want, but 2 answer your question:

You should be concerned about your marriage because you believe it's the right thing for a H 2 do (if that's what you believe, that is).

It doesn't matter what your W thinks. it's what you think that's important here. Live by example.

-ol' 2long

GTO

Your story has been going on for a long time. I am pretty sure I know why you wrote the letter. You have invested a lot in the marriage. You love and supported a person that does not return the love and support.

I wrote letters to my ex-wife all of the time. The reason I did that is if I came to her about any of my needs she would gas light me to death. I learned not to go to her anymore because well it was all about her. I thought that if she saw it on paper she would see my pain and then treat me with respect. Now that I look back not once did she ever show empathy from my letters.

The only time my showed any empathy was when I filed for divorce. Sometimes that is what it takes.

I know others have said you should maybe hold on but that is exactly why your wife acts the way she does. No consequences to her actions. You allowed her to treat you this way and as a matter of fact you enabled her to do it.

If her answer to your letter is to go ski then I would have divorce papers ready for her on her return. And to ruin her trip I would call her when she is there and tell her when she gets back she will have the papers and have a nice day. It will ruin her trip.

Just because you file does not mean you divorce but it should mean you plan on divorcing unless she changes and now. I would keep moving ahead with it until drastic changes are made and if she refuses you can move on.

It seems for men they would rather be beaten to death than change anything. It seems like us guys live in fear that even though she is abusing us at least it is a known pain. We are so afraid it could be worse that we just endure it. Well I am here to tell you that does not have to be the case.

I am so much happier than I was when married to a woman like the one you have. I loved her but to be honest I put up with her neglect of me and my needs because I was afraid of what the future would hold.

In my case my XW did start to come around and she did beg to save our marriage but I no longer wanted to save it. I can assure you what changed her mind is when I got a backbone and played hardball and stopped taking her abuse.

What ever you decide to do good luck. I really would ruin her ski trip though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great post Ihadenough. Would you care to share some more of the details on how your WW came around? Please look at my thread 'gone to plan B'

Sorry for thread jack

Thanks

IHadEnough, thanks for the input, it just confirms that I am making the right decision. I realize that the letters are more for my benefit than my wife. At best I get an immediate response from her, but never anything of substance.

Mostly now I am struggling with my daughter and how she will handle it. My IC's wife is a well respected children's therapist and has written that adopted children, especially those from China do not do well during a divorce. Abandonment issues that you weren't even aware of become an issue or resurface. My daughter yesterday walked in during an argument and said that she was scared that we were going to break up because we are fighting a lot. My heart broke, but it broke even more when she said that if we got a divorce she would miss me when she was at her mommy's house and miss mommy when she was at my house and that she doesn't want two bedrooms, she just wants one! It's time like those that I wonder if I can't just bite the bullet and stay with my wife for 12 more years.

IHE:


There's a third alternative: Work on the "fear" within yourself (speaking 2 gto, now). What are you afraid of? Change? Losing your W? Putting your DD through a painful DV? Work through the "pain". Are you in pain? Why? How much is a direct result of your W's actions (or lack thereof) and how much is a result of your perspective and/or expectations of your W and yourself?

How can you reduce those things, whether you DV or not?

Here's an article about preparing for DV (and maybe just saving your marriage in the process) that you might find interesting:

http://iloveulove.com/relationmarriage/saveyourmarriage.htm

-ol' 2long