I've been posting about this issue on the Emotional Needs board for some time and they've recommended I come here.

The link to the posts (rather long) are below but I will give a brief summary of the situation for those of you who don't want to read novels of stuff.

First thread

Second thread

Around last October, I discovered that my H had a secret life. I discovered it while snooping because he was 'acting weird.' I found an email account going back to 2000 and referencing events prior to that. We were married in 1996 and have been together since 1991. I suspect he was doing this even as we were getting married (but I have no proof and he's not talking).

His secret life involved numerous affairs, EA's, PA's with women he met over the internet or in town. He was published on the Adult friendfinder type sites.

Since finding out, of course my life has been in turmoil. It was in turmoil before because I'd started therapy because I have been diagnosed with PTSD stemming from an abusive (physical, emotional, sexual) childhood. Also, at the time, my father had to have serious heart surgery that I had to fly back and attend to.

Meanwhile, in October, he drove to a convention and met up with one of his OW. He also invited one over to our house while I was gone (later explained that he was thinking of me because he didn't want to leave the house).

Fast forwarding a bit - not much happened that I'm aware of in Nov - Dec because I was in a massive suicidal vortex and was literally struggling to stay alive.

I'm more stable now and we're in counseling. I have the same IC that I did before plus I'm seeing a psychiatrist for meds.

He's seeing our MC for IC and then both of us together periodically. The MC recommended that we try to be sensitive to each other's needs - so I started doing more RC and SF (after std tests) with him. He has not done the things I need him to do and continues to have relationships online with new OW's.

Last weekend he was in a chat with a OW and I asked if I could read it. He became furious and said he "minded very much but go ahead if I wanted to" I didn't read it because 1.) I've read through all the emails and stuff, I don't need more of it and 2.) his reaction told me all I really needed to know.

My next assignment per our mc is to confront him. I'm not sure what she means or what to confront about. He knows I know what's going on. The counselor didn't say to set boundaries. What's your take on such a confrontation and what it should mean or how it should go?

Thanks,

Mys

myshae, is there some reason why you wouldn't just confront him with the evidence? Are you in Plan A? Are you following Marriage Builders principles for affairs?

MYS,
since you are in such a vulnerable place, perhaps it is not a good time for a confrontation.
I know it isn't what you would like to hear, but it is evident that staying with this man is literally killing you. IMHO, it is time to take care of you and becoem the whole, complete and mentally healthy woman God intended you to be. It is not healthy for your body or your emotions to continue going through this.
Find a way to take care of yourself before it is oo late.

MEDC

MelodyLane,

That's just it, I did confront him with the evidence when I found out. Now the MC wants me to do it again.

We are going with local counselors that are following similar techniques to MB. I suppose I'm in Plan A at the moment. I would say I am mostly following MB principles. He is NOT.

Mys

Medc

Well, I've all ready confronted him. He doesn't deny he's had affairs.


Thanks, Medc. I want to do that too. I've been working on my self care. It just seems so complicated because we've been together so long it feels like I'd be walking away from my entire LIFE with nothing real to hold on to.

Mys

(((((Myschae)))))

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Before I address you're specific question, I'd like to make a suggestion that is also a request.

Take care of YOU. Please make YOU your highest priority. Higher in priority than your marriage. Your husband's behavior right now indicates that he cannot be trusted to take care of you. And so it's really important that you do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. I quite seriously mean that every decision you make needs to include the question: "What is the best, healthiest option for ME?"

As for your question about how you might confront him: Although you counselor didn't say anything about boundaries, I can't imagine how a confrontation at this time would not be an expression of boundaries. Specifically, I will not remain in a marriage with a partner who engages in XYZ behavior. If the behavior continues, I will leave [or you will have to leave, or whatever fits your situation best].

What little I have read about your situation suggests to me that your H is coping with an addiction of some sort. I don't know a lot about addictions, but I get the impression that some addicts must "hit bottom" before they seriously address their addiction and commit to sobriety. Others NEVER address the addiction and never commit to sobriety -- they just wallow at the bottom. Of course, some do commit to sobriety and embrace a healthier, addiction-free life. But none of us can say which of those categories your husband is in right now, and there's nothing you can do to push him from one category to another. Which brings us back to the main lesson of Alanon: Take care of YOU.

Myschae - this is probably true in that you do seem to define your "entire life" as being L. But that "entire life" has pretty much been dominated by you "wishing" for the sort of man you want and L DOING whatever the heck he feels like doing.

Marriage is "supposed to be" a union of EQUALS, each surrendering THEIR own wants and desires to their spouse whenever those wants and desires are harmful to the marriage and/or hurtful to the spouse.

People "choose" what they do for a lot of "self-rationalized" reasons and for "what they personally believe in."

It would seem that L is doing both, and that they are, and have likely always been, diametrically opposite to what you hold as your own reasons and belief system.

"Confrontation" is what I have been trying to talk with you about on your other thread. It is obvious from your post here that you either don't like the concept of "confronation in love" regarding wrong and sinful behavior or you really don't understand what that concept really means.

BEFORE you engage in any confrontation with your husband, I would suggest that you get a firm understanding of what "confronting in love" means to you, so you WILL be able to confront "in love" rather than from some other perspective.

Mys, so I take it he refuses to participate in a program of recovery? If that is the case, then the next logical step is Plan B. I would suggest letting him know what it will take to recover your marriage and then giving him a choice. He can either go along or not. [you will know by his actions in the next few weeks] If he does not, then you will have his answer.

And if he doesn't, I would quietly prepare for Plan B and then just tell him when you are ready to separate.

The problem, as I see it, mys, is that you have been dealing with this for so long it is wearing you down psychologically. Dr Harley recommends Plan A for 3 to 4 weeks for women. Women have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of PTSD from dealing with this stuff. You are weakening NOW. I would move on this before weaken even more.

Sorry you are in this mess, MYS.

confrontation
what in heavens name would be the point...

for years and years and years and years.this man has chosen and chosen and chosen to use other people outside of marriage to fullfill selfish needs


he reeks havoc on his family
his wife
and even the OP he USES to fullfill his crap...

confrontation...

what exactly is it that you don't know about his choices

what would be the point...

I would

pack his crap in garbage bags on the front lawn
change the locks

take a deep breath and be free free free from his immature nonsense...

have you not had enough...

I wouldn't discuss a thing with him

and be DONE with him...

unless you rattle this tree from the ground completely...

next month year etc it will still be you with an infidel..

myschae...haven't you had ENOUGH yet

ark

agree 100%

I think you have defined exactly what I am confused about. How do you do that?

Mys

Melody Lane,


I would say this is correct. He'll read books or fill out papers but he won't stop his behavior.


I have been asked by my support team (IC and psychiatrist) to not separate (isolate) as they fear I will commit suicide.



Yes, and the counselor (mc) seems to think it will take at least a year?? Before we are even able to decide to commit to marriage?

Mys

ark,


This is somewhat how I feel. I do NOT want more details - the emails were bad enough, thanks.

On the other hand, I don't know if he will or even can make a committment to our marriage.


I guess not.. I hold on to some hope still...

Mys

WHY is this your only option. don't you have family that you can be with? IMHO, if your so close to suicide that you have to stay with this "man" in order to keep yourself "safe" then perhaps you need to be inpatient for a while.

The bottom line is, your husband fuels your depression and increases your chances for suicide.

Please take care of YOU.

I am very concerned mys that your safety net against suicide is the very person who put you in this dangerous situation. Please find a friend or family member to be with you and get this man out of the house. He may as well be slowly poisoning your food because he is slowly killing you with his selfish behavior.

But what do YOU THINK? Aren't you more likely to commit suicide staying with him and enduring this ongoing abuse? That is what Dr Harley would say. You are exposing yourself to a profoundly abusive situation that is bound to effect your mental health. Women have nervous breakdowns from living like this. And you are already suicidal.

How could you be more likely to commit suicide by removing yourself from an abusive situation?

On the other hand, with a separation, you would begin to feel better in about 3-4 weeks and it would only get better and better after that.


Well, do you really think a suicidal person can handle another year of this abuse? If she thinks he can't commit "for a year" [how does she know this?] then wouldn't you better off removing yourself for that year so you don't kill yourself or have a nervous breakdown?

MYS, do your counselors/doctors understand that adultery is as traumatic as RAPE or the death of a child? Some psychologists rank it up there with PHYSICAL ASSAULT.

If your H was beating you, would they ask you to "not separate (isolate) as they fear I will commit suicide?"

The counseling and psychiatric community, in general, seems to completely MISS the real damage caused by adultery, which greatly impairs their ability to effectively counsel clients.

This is part of the reason why marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate. They are clueless about adultery and even more clueless about how to save a marriage.

mys, PLEASE change doctors and get a new opinion. YOUR H is the one person driving you to suicide! Why would you want to stay with the one person who makes you wish you were dead? I know, FOO, but you just traded in your FOO life for a new form of abuse.

You deserve better than that.

Please find a good inpatient facility, book yourself a suite, and go spend 3 months - alone - to learn how to live with your demons (or exorcise them) on your own. You do NOT need this man polluting your life. He has NOTHING invested in you, or he would have stopped by now.

Quit wasting yourself on him.

MYS, run far, far away from this destructive abusive man. Find a safe place and let yourself begin to heal. And please find a new counselor.

I have been asked by my support team (IC and psychiatrist) to not separate (isolate) as they fear I will commit suicide.


well the only way they woud fear this...

(what do YOU fear)
is if you have told them this.....

have you told them you would rather be dead without him...

what bad can happen

not having affairs in your face
what bad can happen

not having to see him sneek and lie

what bad can happen having him wonder for a bit

where YOU are
what YOU are doing

all this focus on him...

ark

Melody Lane,


He participates but he told the counselor that he "doesn't want any more restrictions on him at this time."


I am. In about a month I will be hired on as full time facutly at the University I am getting my MS degree from. It pays a living wage and comes with benefits.

At first he told me that he would leave if anyone did - but he's since changed his tune to he'll only leave if it seems 'necessary.'

Thank you. It's all been such a shock. I thought we had a good marriage all that time - he was really good at hiding things (like a master spy or something) because I've snooped in the past. What caught up with him this time is his workplace doesn't allow access to lots of email sites, etc.

My mental state was not good when all this started as I've just started dealing with sexual, physical and emotional abuse from growing up. Now I find out that not only was my reality warped as a child - my reality has been warped my whole adult life. I know everyone is telling me to leave, leave, leave, but I sometimes don't feel stable enough to get out of bed.

Mys

curious53,


I'm really trying to do that but it all is so tiring and confusing. I feel as though my whole world just shattered and I'm sitting in the middle looking at the pieces.


I suppose now that I can follow that up realistically (I was dependent upon him for financial support while in grad school) that makes sense. My life would be easier if he would leave... but I can't afford the mortgage.

[quote]Yes, they do think he has a sexual addiction. That's another reason we can't follow MB to the letter - Plan A doesn't work with addicts. I'm not sure Plan B does either.

Mys

My family is out of the question. I need to stay local both for job and school reasons. Someone on the EN boards has suggested looking for a roommate but I'm kind of unsure about that. I have some serious trust/control issues.

Mys

Faithful Follower,

L is not part of my support team. I rely on my professional Dr's for support emotionally and specifically regarding suicide. I have a plan for when I'm feeling suicidal that requires nothing from L.

I just keep hoping that if this an addiction or something he'll hit bottom or something and decide to get better. I know the odds are against it, but I still have some hope.

Mys

I believe I am more prone to commit suicide if I had the opportunity to be alone for a period of time and no one would come and check on me.


I would never do it in front of him.


I don't honestly know. I had a very frank talk with my IC and MC last week about how much this is dragging me under. They both promised to be more supportive AND helped me negotiate a sanctuary in my home where I can sleep alone and be alone without worrying about being bothered (yes, this was a problem).

I know it seems I'm moving like a slug, but I'm moving away from him as fast as I am able.

I guess I just don't want to give up too easily.


Mys

I know this feeling very well. I have felt before like lying down and giving up. When I felt like that, I had to push aside my dangerous, destructive feelings and allow my logic to take over.

I had to make a decision to develop a rational plan to save my life and then mechanically follow that plan every day. WHETHER I FELT LIKE IT OR NOT. And sometimes the plan was to sit up, put my foot on the floor, put the other foot on the floor, walk to the bathroom, take a shower, etc, etc, etc....

I would not allow my feelings of doom to destroy me. Pretty soon my feelings followed my ACTIONS and my plan for survival led me out of the darkness. I had to lead myself out of the darkness by ignoring my feelings.

When I felt this way, I discovered that my feelings were my biggest enemy. I had no strength in me, so I had to PRETEND to have strength through my actions. Soon enough, my feelings followed. Feelings follow actions.

Melody Lane,

I think my IC does - she's a PTSD specialist. I also think she thinks he has an addiction and that somehow changes things for her approach in what I should do.

I don't think my MC did until we had a solo meeting last Saturday.

I barely talk to my psychiatrist unless it's about medications.


It's funny. That's always the first question they ask - are you being physically abused. Say no to that one and the answer seems to be to stay and work it out.


This may be true. We were working for a short time with Penny/Cerri though she's not really following MB these days but with all the complications (my suicidal risk, etc) not to mention cost we decided to go locally.

I'm willing to call the Harleys but I guarantee you he won't talk to them. He hates MB.

Mys


Mys

Do you think all this wound picking has been good for you? My childhood could be described the same as yours, and digging up past wounds did nothing for me other than keep me angry and triggered all the time. There are studies that show this kind of psychotherapy is very counterproductive and abuse survivors who dont go through this exercise actually do better than those who do.

Look what Dr Harley says about this issue:

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4
Overcoming Resentment


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.

I have looked into residential programs and they are all some distance from here (unless you're addicted to drugs/alcohol/gambling).

I need to stay local because I have just been hired for a job that will make me independent plus I am in the middle of my graduate degree.

Mys

I think most counselors in this area take this approach - we discussed this a lot on the other threads.

Mys

Yes, I have told them the truth - I am more likely to commit suicide if I am alone.

I would rather be dead with or without him.

I agree, too much focus on him.

How do I confront him with love ...?

MYS, you are a valuable person and you have painted yourself into a corner. You can't leave your abuser because you will kill yourself...but staying with him is killing you anyway.

Sorry, but it is time for a change in strategy. You NEED...more than ANY JOB...a support system around you that will help you through this. Absent that, an inpatient stay that is measured in months and not days is certainly in order.

If your suicidal tendencies are this prevalent, you should be seeing your shrink weekly until you come up a pharm cocktail that will enable you to function better.

This really is a cancerous situation that YOU need to take control of. Stop letting life walk all over you.

What good would it do??? He's never going to change. YOU need to only worry about YOU.

Touche, MEDC. Beat me to it. Its just gonna stress YOU out, that's all. The only way he is EVER going to wake up is if you grow a backbone and leave him... then MAYBE he'll wake up. MAYBE. He's so far gone that is the ONLY way you are going to get through to him. NOTHING YOU SAY, will.

Mys....

NEVER GROW A WISHBONE WHERE YOUR BACKBONE SHOULD BE!

E.

I have been slowly doing the same things. Applying for a job with the University that I didn't think I would get - salary and benefits. Working out in house boundaries for sleeping and just being alone.

Since he's not bothering lying about it, not snooping as much as he just does it in my face. Our last counseling session together revolved around him removing all the porn he'd recorded on the dvr. He removed it. *shrug*

I'm talking to him about the reality of separation and divorce - financially, etc. Whether he wants to hear it or not. I've explained over and over what he needs to do and he just "doesn't know if he can and doesn't want to commit and then break another promise."

It's crazymaking.

Mys

He's an adult and he can figure this stuff out on his own. And I don't think you telling him is going to help him. SHOW HIM. PLAN B. No warning, just do it.

He'll learn the hard way. Seems that's about the only way he can learn anyways.

Don't waste your time "talking to him about the reality of divorce". That's YOUR reality your telling him (and it may be ACTUAL reality, but not in his head, and you aren't going to convince him otherwise).

Let him figure it out on his own. Experience is the best teacher.

E.

Medc


Yeah, I really need to stop that ideation but it's so damn strong sometimes.


I am seeing him very frequently and I am on quite a pharmacy of drugs.


I'm working on it.

So what I'm hearing everyone say is there is simply no hope to be had in this situation. The marriage is doomed (and so am I in my own way).

I think I'm going to go take a few meds and calm down. I'll be back later.

Mys

Arg... Mys!

YOU ARE NOT DOOMED!

The M may be doomed, that I can't tell you-- whether or not the M is doomed is intimately dependent on whether or not your H wants to WAKE UP and do something.

But I DO KNOW that floundering around like you are is actually HURTING your M, and hurting both him and you. SO STOP!

THE ONE AND ONLY WAY HE IS GOING TO CHANGE IS IF YOU CHANGE... AND TALKING TO HIM DOESN'T WORK!

Just leave. That doesn't mean the M is over, unless that is what he wants after that. And in that case, you can do better Mys. I know that sounds cliche, but its true. This man is a monster right now. What about him do you love, now?

Lets focus on getting your ducks in a row so we can get you out of this situation... eh? What do you think? I know there's PLENTY of people experienced in all sorts of things around here... the law, jobs, children in a separation, plan B.... the whole nine yards. You name it, SOMEONE HERE has BTDT!

So, lets get you focused... will you start planning with us? I'll be part of your support team, looks like you've got MEDC, MelodyLane, LA signed up and ready to go-- you've got the big guns on your thread-- and I'm sure plenty others.

Lets get working on a plan Mys! List out some of your "problems" with kicking him out of the house. What do you see being an issue if when he came home from work today and you handed him a suitcase and said "don't contact me again" with a plan B letter? (this is a hypothetical, but to get you thinking on a plan, so we are ready once we get the ducks lined up!). Think kids, finances, house, cars, health insurance, bills, credit cards, bank accounts...

Lets focus this energy on something productive for you, Mys.

E.

nothing could be further from the truth. Your life can finally begin anew when you jettison his sorry butt.

Mys, I feel for you and think that you need some inpatient care. This specter of you feeling suicidal/doomed over removing what has been a very bad husband from your life really stymies a posters ability to respectfully (and with care) suggest divorce.

What would you have a poster here do? We can reach out to you...some people can most likely call or see you in person...but until and if you are willing to work on things yourself...this pain will continue.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. In all honesty, while you have not taken the steps to kill your body...and I pray you never will...you have already surrendered your spirit as a sacrifice to stay with a horrid man.

Don't give up....take a chance on truly living. You will never regret it. Never.

myschae,
I'm not sure if you have followed my story or not, but I have been going through this emotional roller coaster ride since 02. My WH had multiple online EA's and some in person contact.

I believe he felt entitled to this behavior because of issues that we were having in our new marriage with my children from a previous marriage.

There were times when people on this site (that are near and dear to me) would tell me that "my" issues were overtaking his. Meaning that my emotional instability was overpowering the issue of his infidelity. For example, you are suicidal from this and it becomes the focal point and then he can rush in an "rescue" you from your pain and he becomes some type of hero for something that he has been the primary creator of. Does that make sense?

We just had another EA situation in April/May of this year. I was shocked (don't know why), thought things were going well this time, etc.

I can honestly tell you that I am actually seeing REAL changes in WH (still skeptical), but it took me doing some of the following things:

1) got an IC that was focused on ME - not the M only, but ME as a person and building my strength.

2) went to the medical Dr. and got Cymbalta, that was a disaster, too strong for me, but he told me that I could cut the Xanax in half (because it's too strong for me as well) and use that when I am having anxiety attacks.

3) continued posting here for a support group.

4) joined a Codependents Anonymous group, began a 12-step program of my own. (this is early in the process, but I can already see great improvement in my own ability to cope)

5) exposed his behavior to our Bishop and to my brother, to my BF and to his BF. That in itself was FAR beyond what I had done before and brought a certain amount of clarity to the FOG. Also gave me a support group that I had not had before.

My FWH describes the situation now to me that he saw that I was weak and that I wasn't going to enforce boundaries so he knew that there would be no consequences. Well, as I have become stronger over the years and moreso recently, he sees that I am not going to lie down and take it anymore.

I think your WH is going through the motions just to appease you and get you to leave him alone enough that he can continue this addiction.

It is an addiction. He's not going to stop without therapy, long-term therapy. He has been at it for FAR too long.

I may not get long-term recovery either, because relapses are VERY COMMON and that's what I have lived with since 02.

For you, I think you need to find an IC, a support group, a medical doctor, etc. (some of this you have already done) and FOCUS on your own PERSONAL RECOVERY PLAN. None of which should include him.

You aren't going to leave him right now because you are not strong enough so no matter how much we logically tell you that you deserve better, you won't leave until you feel it on your own.

Be on a Mission. A Mission to BE A BETTER YOU! Let go of trying to change him because it will never happen.

IF in that process he changes, then great, but otherwise, you can slowly, but SURELY move away from this abuse.

Hope that helps! My heart goes out to you!

what is there to confront..
what is your question to confront him with..


ark

I think this counselor's suggestion that she "confront" shows that he/she is clueless to the whole situation.

He KNOWS that she KNOWS about the continued contact, duh!

Mys, don't waste your time on that suggestion. And personally, I wouldn't waste your money on that MC anymore either.

Find an IC - for YOU!

mys, do they still have house mothers at college? You know, the lady who lives in the school dorm and kind of takes care of the girls? I think it would be a wonderful change for you to do that. What do you think?

quote from medc."Mys, I feel for you and think that you need some inpatient care. This specter of you feeling suicidal/doomed over removing what has been a very bad husband from your life really stymies a posters ability to respectfully (and with care) suggest divorce."
*************************************

Hi Mys,
If you remember,I have suggested inpatient care a few times. And you always come back w/ logical excuses....There isn't anyplace but drug rehab, who would teach my students? grade papers?
You are wallowing in the middle of a crisis.
There must be a facility that deals w/ suicidal depression that isn't a drug rehab. What about the local hospital??? Where would you be taken if you did attempt suicide? or if you called 911? There has to be someplace...
AND,I KNOW you have students and work etc....BUT, there ARE substitutes....it can be arranged...what would happen if you were in an accident?
THIS is where you need to take care of YOU first.....and if you do it soon and all goes well you can still start the new job.

And, while you are there you can write your plan B letter. (or maybe before you go)
I honestly think plan B is your best option all the way around...it gets you away from a very traumatic/abusive situation and it puts the ball in L's court....let him manage his own choice to recover etc........I really think it's the best thing for both of you.

Mys,

Here's what you should do. If you have a favorite candy, or something, keep it close.

Every time you start to break down, and don't do it--reward yourself heavily. If you can't go to anyone to help you with this, as you have said, you may be able to 'train' yourself.

Think about how talented you are. You didn't get that job for nothing, you know!

All right, I'm not really interested in a 3 month 'vacation in a psych ward' so how can I plan an escape so that I just vanish. The steps elude me. I'd want to bring some stuff with me (mostly electronics) so it's not like I'm going to just pack my clothes and go.

How do I protect myself legally?

Mys

medc,


I suppose I am still holding out hope we can work this out.


Well, honestly, help me save my marriage. I'm willing to Plan B if that's what it takes but I'm getting a lot of conflicting advice from the counselors here that is giving me pause. Obviously they know more about the situation that you guys do because of the medium of the forum. At the same time, they don't have the combined affair experience you do.




I know it's a bad option. I'm doing the best thing I can by building strong support with experienced people.


I hope you'll forgive me for saying this but it doesn't look like that from here.


Mys

onlyUcan,


He is NOT part of my rescue plan. He hears about it after I'm back to stable again.


I have that.


I take a pharmacy of drugs.


Here I am.


I keep meaning to look for one.


We're both athiests.


This is true but I'll feel less anxious about it if I have a working plan as someone suggested.


Thank you

Mys

I honestly don't know. I can check on it.

Mys

Nia,


I do. I just don't want to dismantle the functioning part of my life (work/school) right now. It's against my Dr's advice and I'm not sure I need inpatient therapy. Certainly my medical staff hasn't mentioned it and I've asked.


I'm willing to consider Plan B but maybe some planning would be good.

Mys

True. My IC keeps stressing to focus on my accomplishments for work.

OK, lets plan your plan B then Mys.

First off, you mentioned that you want to "disappear". Are you sure YOU want to leave YOUR house? Quite frankly, I am in the camp that the person that is not invested in the M should be the one to leave. But, if you have a family member's house that you can go to, etc, that support system might be best for you.

Truthfully, I would call up a divorce lawyer in your state. Many have free half hour consultations. Do you know if you have legal separation in your state? What state are you from? The first step is to learn the laws of your state. And start documenting any/all abuse with dates/times/witnesses... just in case. You can't be too careful.

ETA: Just because you are talking to a lawyer DOES NOT MEAN you necessarily have to divorce, or that you are even going to. Its just to cover your butt, so we do this right

So, lets start with what state you live in, and figure out the laws, whether or not you have legal separation, what happens if you leave the marital home, and go from there.

Where would you go if YOU leave? Do you WANT to leave, or would you rather have him leave?

Lets start there...

E.

I do. I just don't want to dismantle the functioning part of my life (work/school) right now. It's against my Dr's advice and I'm not sure I need inpatient therapy. Certainly my medical staff hasn't mentioned it and I've asked.
*****************************************

What DID they say when asked about it?
I can understand not wanting to dismantle the functioning part of your life. It must bring you a lot of stability....which is good.
I imagine the counselors see you as very stable/capable...do they know how desperate you sometimes feel?
I can't help but to worry that dragging this out for so long isn't
helping you at all.

Well, since you want to disappear, here is what I'd do. I'd search online or go to a travel agency, have them find someone who has a house on a lake or an ocean, that hasn't been rented out, and make some sort of offer for renting it or house-sitting it from now until school starts. Then, just pack a bag, gather up your electronics, and go. Tell H you need some time alone and you'll be back in time for school, give him your parents' phone number (or whoever) for emergencies, and just disappear.

Spend the next few weeks BY YOURSELF. You keep saying you fear being alone, but I truly think you are telling yourself that when it really isn't your enemy. I think that if you were to spend 2 or 3 weeks on your own, you would grow to reaquaint yourself with who you really are - not as an appendage of some other person. It will give you strength. And peace. So that you come back to your marriage from a position of strength.

I think this is a very bad idea considering she has already said that isolation increases her suicide risk.

Mys, you may not like the idea...but inpatient therapy is your best option. It also sounds like you need some new doctors...preferably university based doctors.

first of all

NO ONE...has insurance that is good enough to a three month inpatient stay...

thats not functional inpatient...that commitment status....and we're not talking about that....

so I implore you not dismiss an inpatient stay if warranted based on that thought....

why not go to a womens shelter for their resources and assistance in building your plan....

that's what they do there.....

and surely the persistant affairs in your face qualify as emotional abuse....

they are exactly what you need to help building a plan...

here's the other things you need to change your thought processes on...

going plan B...or temporarily seperating.....does not mean the end of anything definite..

all you can do is change your reponses to his actions...

and

you are perfectly allowed to choose to stay with an infidel...but don't delude yourself that you will have an intimate equal marriage...
know realistically what you have....

and there are plenty of people who choose that route...but it won't serve you well to choose that route and then complain or wish for it to be different...

are you capable of staying at his side and investing all energy and emotion in to career and stuff...so that you won't really care what he does or doesn't do....

some people do that....
some do it contentedly....

is that what you want....

have you read bad childhood good life...
it is possible...

millions do it alllllll the time...

inspite of
inspite of
inspite of.......


ARK

I agree that her best bet is inpatient therapy. But I see her really resistant to that, so I doubt seriously she will do it.

That said, IMO, the reason she's thinking like this is her H's influence. I think if she's away from him for an extended period, her true self might feel safe enough to peek out.

Perhaps she can get a sister or friend or parent to stay with her.

you might be right about some plans. Mine allows for 190 days...go figure.

It certainly does seem daunting to think of a stay being months. It would be easier to handle a few weeks and then re-evaluate. I think your shelter idea is a great suggestion.

MYS,

I have a theory. Perhaps you did not realize your husband was cheating and a "rapist" because until now, you were not ready to face it. He did not turn into a rapist/cheater/ cold as ice person overnight. He was always like this... You did not realize the extent of his lack of morals. Maybe you were not ready to see it....YOU are NOW strong enough to see him as he is. And it is a shock that shakes you to the core. And triggers all your childhood hurts at once.

*Your story in a nutshell as I see it.

1. You were raised by psychopathic/menatlly ill parents.
2. You were abused by these folks
3. Then you got out on your own, yet were mentally fragile.
4. You met a husband to marry that seemed better than your folks to marry. You were mentally fragile and could not see him for what he was and is.
5. Your husband became a "strength" for you to depend on. At least he was not abusing you every day. He was a good bandaid for your fragile mental health.

6. You lived with this husband for years and he was a support for you. Inside, perhaps you were still severely damaged from childhood abuse but living with this man helped you cope with life.

7. This husband gave a sense of stability to your life and a reason for you to live.

8. Now, you have realized this husband was no better than your abuser family. He is cold, mean, and psychopathic just like they were if not worse. This is a shock TO YOU. He was always bad but YOU are just now seeing it.

9. You are between a rock and a hard place. Do you dump the only security you ever had? But what if it was never a good security but merely a lie? If you dump this man, who will be there for you? You will be back at square one, damaged from childhood, unable to cope. All that damage will come out and you will have to deal with it within yourself which may make you feel suicidal due to the extreme pain you will feel.

10. Perhaps a lifetime of pain is ready to come out from your heart, MYS. It is scary, I know. Us sensitive folks really absorb abuse from others deeply, damaging us and creating a lot of pain. We cope the best we can.

11. Now seeing what kind of monster your husband is is such a shock. First you had those monster parents. Then this monster husband. Who would or could live with it!!??? It is a terrible shock to your entire being. This is all you have known so far in life. So it is no wonder you are tempted to GIVE UP ON LIFE. But there is so much more to live than abuse and cheaters and cold people!!!! I tell you you are not seeing reality yet! You will see the good in life! Cling to your Gram and what she is. There is much more like her out here.

12. Now, you have to face ALL this childhood pain PLUS the pain your husband dumped on you! You have to realize he does not value you nor care about you. It might make you think (mistakenly) that you arent worth LOVING! But dont believe that lie. Just because a bunch of mean cold psychopaths dont love you means nothing. You were around the wrong people. When you are always around abusers, it is hard to realize you are worth being loved!!!!

13. You will now learn to love your precious self apart from your carreer and accomplishments. You will learn to heal from the past abuse from your parents and the present disrespect and disregard from your husband. You will learn to be resiliant and be able to handle everything in life. You will learn to recognize people for who they are and to pick only healthy positive people to be your friends and maybe have relationships with. You will learn all this and it will be hard and painful facing how bad you feel inside about your own lack of worth. I know you can do this.

I feel so sorry that you do not value yourself enough YET to realize how your H is a rapist, selfish, a manipulator, uncaring and wants and goes after other women.

I dont know but had you known he would prove to be all of this, would you have jumped into marriage with him?

Why would you want to remain married to him now knowing all of this? (because you were used to very bad treatment from your family growing up therefore you did not recognize it in your husband at first.)

Maybe the meds are making you feel "too numb" to realize what your husband truly is. (or, you are realizing it and it is a shock to see he is as bad as your own parents were)

I want for you to be safe, to learn to truly love and care for yourself, and to value yourself more highly. Then, you will want to have nothing more to do with your WW. Or anyone like him. Right now, you seem to almost hate yourself for some reason due to childhood habits, and being around bad people, and this is clouding your view of him a little.

I would be howling and growling at him, showing him my pain, at this terrible treatment he gives to you each and every day.

If he does not understand nor care about his wife's pain then he is a psychopath which maybe he is. What DOES he care about? Himself only?

I just don't understand why you want to be with him anymore. Except that he is a tiny bit better than your abusive family maybe. And having a warm body around is sort of comforting in a way. Even if they do not care for you.

I feel sad you have to live with someone so terrible as him. I dont know the reason you feel you want him in your life still. Except you are used to bad treatment. And bad people. I would be so done with this man ...but of course I am not you.

Honestly I don't know what I'm supposed to confront him with either. It's a confusing assignment.

Mys

Eeyore


Well, there was a lot of stressing on not letting him know. I'm not sure how to evict him without letting him to know - plus he's legally entitled to be here.

He did promise he would leave but has backed off that statement. It seems the only way is for me to go. I've asked him twice to leave.


I would prefer to stay but I can't afford the mortgage so it would be better to put me in some cheap housing.

Mys

It is hard to confront a man who blames everything on you. I would not be able to either. I might try by howling and showing I am in pain due to his choices. And telling him of all my pain he has wrought on me. but if that man is cold as ice about it or blames me then confrontattion will be useless.

Well, if you attempt to confront the monster and see how he responds, if he blames you,, etc, it at least may show you what kind of monster he really is. This alone might be a good thing as it could force you out of this bad marriage. I am looking on the bright side.

Nia,


They explained that there weren't inpatient facilities for my problems I'd have to go out of city or possibly out of state. They also said that I'm way to high functioning to keep a bed for too long.


Yes they do see me as capable. They are trying to work on that part. They are VERY aware of the suicide risk I am. I had to call in to check with my IC daily for a while.


True but neither is flopping around in a flurry of motions that don't have any sequential sense.

Mys

OK-- So the way I see it here, we have two choices. Let me know which one you want to proceed with.

1. We find a way to get H out of the house. When you asked him to leave in the past-- how/when did you ask him? Was it something you said during an emotional meltdown, or something you said firmly and with strength? Is it possible he just wasn't taking you seriously?

1a. If indeed you want to try to stay in the house, I think we should try that FIRST. No, you can't legally evict him. But it can't hurt to TRY, right? What's the worst he says... he won't leave? OK, so then we go to the other plan-- you leaving.

1b. Have you looked into the laws of your state? Are you comfortable telling people what state you are from? I know there's many people that know a lot about the law and legal separation, etc. You may be able to legally force him to pay part of the mortgage, etc (or he may just agree to keep paying on his own!)

2. If you are leaving, I would HIGHLY suggest you find a friend or family member to stay with-- AND DON'T TELL H WHERE YOU ARE GOING! Do you have someone you can stay with? What about your finances? Do you have joint accounts-- how will you pay for things once you are out of the house?

ETA: Oh, and either way you are gonna need a plan B letter... so start on that, and post here, and people will help you edit. Might as well start there too... no matter what, we are going to need that!

Lets start there...

E.

MEDC,

What do you mean by university based Dr's? My IC has a Ph.D in psychology and specialized in sexual abuse and PTSD. My Psychiatrist is a full medical Dr.

Mys

MYS I just got a thought. Perhaps, in your husband's eyes, you are like a favorite pet he owns.

Sure he likes this pet, hey, he has owned it a long time. If it ran away or died he would miss it...for a few months.

His life is accustomed to being around this pet.

*But all this has nothing to do with romance. You never romance a favorite pet. You dont have to worry about dating, sleeping with people, or flirting with others. Why? Because you are not cheating on your favorite pet! The PET has no say in your doing whatever it is that you want.

When he married you, perhaps it was as if he just adopted (for life) his most favorite pet. (He has no more regard for you than a pet he is kind to and affectionate with.) So therefore in his mind, he can sleep with other women, have sex with others, and have a life apart from his life with you, his favorite pet. People do not center thier lives or thier lovelives around thier favorite pets!

You, like a favored pet, are always around for him. He has to give little or nothing to you to keep you around. He loves you as a person would love a pet. He likes you around and is kind to you. That is it. Otherwise, he goes after romance somewhere else.

Maybe you are and have been in the PET category with your husband. That is why he has no guilt going for other women to have sex with and relationships with. After all, you cannot have sex with a favored pet, you have to go out dating to get sex.

A university based doctor would be a physician with roots in a teaching institution....think Hopkin's, University of PA (a few close to me). What part of the country are you in that they do not offer inpatient care???

Universities usually are up to date with the latest psychological knowledge and research, equipment and techniques, where drs that are not currently affiliated with a university are sometimes not privvy to this information for awhile. University based Drs are usually on the cutting edge-- that's why when someone has a serious illness or rare illness you always hear it being treated by Dr. so-and-so at some well known University-- not some random "center" that's not affiliated with a University.

Plus Universities have the support system of all of the different specailties in one place, and the opportunity for doctors to more easily consult one another.

Its just a better system, if possible.

(I work in the medical research department of a major university...)

E.

Not sure where you are in the midwest, but here is a link that you could look at..and go from and find your own state resources, they have a link to the various state laws..

Kansas Divorce Laws and Resources

This state even has legal separation..



I realize child custody issues would not be a problem so you wouldn't need to deal with that..

Mysch,

I was with a con artist/master deceiver who led secret lives, too. I was one of his secret lives and his married life was secret from me as well, and apparently he had had many, and many wives as well.

I know what it is like to live in hell.

What finally changed things for me was that he left. And in a way that was so cruel and heartless I thought I was going to die. And even then I still had hope/desire.

But I called Dr. Harley and he asked me to go six months without any contact at all and then to call him and he would help me. He knew that I couldn't think clearly until six months of no contact whatsoever. I thought okay, and then I will get him back.

I swear at that time even my daughter's unhappiness wasn't enough of a catalyst to get me to get rid of him once and for all.

During that six months there were times I almost went to see him, but I would come here and run it by the forum. I wanted to drop his garbage off at the island property he talked me into giving him and Pep told me that might be just a reason to see him, so I didn't.

Somewhere during that time and lots of weekends of not being able to get out of bed except to post here and work, I made the decision to get over him. The decision for happiness.

That is what it took. The decision, and once that was made every thing just kind of fell into place.

And now after a couple of years and a new marriage I am renewing old friendships, friendships I had let end because I was so depressed/unhappy I couldn't bare to see the people I used to know. And my daughter is so happy. She is thriving.

I wish like hell he would leave you. I have such an idea of what you are going through and I know how hard life can be when you are with a man capable of the things your husband and my ex are.

Keep putting one foot in front of the other, and keep posting. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, you just keep heading for it. I know cuz I've been there.

I wish you six months of no contact with him whatsoever, and then reevaluate. That would the gift that would change everything for you.

Get a really good plan to get those six months. That is the plan you need.

Edited to add, that when you are with someone that you think are someone else, and all of it has been one big deception it takes a very long time to see him for what he really is. For me it took probably five years to come to the full realization of what /who I was dealing with.

Somethings you don't try to fix, some things you just get away from.

I don't really believe in evil, but if it did have a face, and for me it would be my ex. You can name it addictions, personality disorder, flawed character or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. What matters is getting away from it.

As Noodle and Appy have said, these types of people leave nothing but confusion and chaos in their wake. That is I believe Dr. Peck's definition of evil.

Get away from him. I have a feeling after that you will soon be walking on the sunny side of the street.

Stella,


For some reason everything seems hard these days. Thanks.

Mys

Ark,


True, and he's been my sole source of support while going through school. I will be hired in August but I don't know what kind of health package they have.


Legally?

Mys

catperson,


Yeah, I really don't see that as a viable option atm.


We moved here fairly recently. I don't know anyone I could ask and my family would be the last set of people on the planet I'd ask.

Mys

medc,


I wouldn't even begin to know what to ask them to do if I went... to be totally honest. Do I just show up at the door and say "Fix me?"

(ps. I don't mean this in a snarky way, I'm totally being honest here. Daunting is the right word.)
Mys

Stella,

You really have a gift for summing things up.

Mys

eeyoree,


No emotional meltdown but a serious "I want this" conversation.

He took me seriously enough but wanted to give it more time. It doesn't help my case that I'm not getting advocacy about it from the MC.


Maybe this can be what the confrontation is about.


No - I've mentioned I'm from KS.

The thing is that I've been going to school and living off his income this entire time. The job I am getting sort of dropped in my lap. ALL of our finances are completely combined and I manage them. If I leave the house, there is no way I can take that many files with me. He'll have to do it.


I have no one to stay with so that is out of the question. I'll just have to make it alone. I have no idea what to do about the accounts, they're all joint. I don't know how I'll pay for things once I leave.

I have no idea how I will pay for things if HE leaves. Out of my salary, I would guess.


Ok, that will take some time to figure out.

Mys

To be honest, I have no intention of taking him to the cleaners. There are a few things I want (my computers, little stuff) but he can have the rest of it lock, stock and barrel.

I just want to get away. I'll find some way to support myself.

It might just be easier if I DO move out. At least I know he can support the household (minus one) on what he makes).

Mys

Quote:
I can't help but to worry that dragging this out for so long isn't
helping you at all.


True but neither is flopping around in a flurry of motions that don't have any sequential sense.

Mys
******************************************

??? what did you mean by that?
of course that doesn't make any sense....it's not like they are the only choices.....you are starting to put a plan together.

Personally, I can not fathom living w/ a husband who was so blatant about his extra-curricular sexual behavior...I think L's attitude would make MY decision easy.....even w/ children and no income of my own.

Why don't you ask L to check into an inpatient SA facility?

Please make sure you get a lawyer to look out for your interests. You need to make sure that you do not give him everything. This is one of the actions that will help lead you out of your depression. Taking care of yourself. And taking care of yourself in part means taking financial responsibility in getting what is rightfully yours.


A legal separation is NOT a divorce, but will help in protecting your interests. You are not in an emotional state of mind right now to be able to make this type of decisions (that all you want are a few small items).

But getting away from him is the first and most important decision to be sure.

I just want to get away. I'll find some way to support myself.

It might just be easier if I DO move out. At least I know he can support the household (minus one) on what he makes).
***************************

It doesn't sound like YOU are too concerned about the suicide risk it you are living alone.

If you really do not care about the house etc....why not find a small apartment. You do the finances...you know what you can afford and you certainly deserve to take some $$ to set yourself up.

Temporary spousal support. Get a lawyer to start a legal sep before you leave. This is part of making a plan to get away from him.

JosieJones,

Wow, this is moving so fast it's making my head spin. I'm not sure I'm ready for a legal separation yet. It seems like nothing more than a step towards divorce.

Mys

I'm not worried about it. I'll either do it or I won't. If I do, then pretty much none of this stuff matters. If I don't I may as well get used to living within my means.

I've looked at small apartments. All I need room for are my computers, books, and bed - then maybe one or two special items so I feel like home.

Mys

I don't think the local hospital is a teaching hospital. I think they all get shipped up to Kansas State.

I'm in the boonies.

Mys

Stella,

I've often wondered if his only real 'loves' in life are his pets. I don't think he trusts people every much. Not even me.

Mys

Mys, I would suggest you read The Last Lecture by Randy Pausch. It appears from my perspective that you refuse to navigate your way around obstacles with any efficiency.
Life is full of opportunities and the best way to improve your lot in life is to start recognizing the gifts laid before you.
FIND A WAY....get help...if you have to go out of the boonies for help...DO IT. I too live in the boonies now...BUT, when I need excellent care, I travel to Baltimore or to Philly.

I would guess that you are a glass is half empty...with a crack in it too...type of person. THAT is a choice. I don't think you need to be Miss Sunshine...but you can start doing things that will add to your life.

The book is a VERY fast read. I would also recommend that you do a web search and watch the video of his lecture (still read the book though). I really think it could help you.

You may be right. I think the biggest reason L cited for having affairs is I'm a 'negative person.' I can see why he would feel that way. I'll see if the book is in the library but I am buried in grading atm.

Mys

Don't forget to look into being a house mother. Probably free rent.

mys

just be really really honest with people here...
and tell us what it is you want

what is it you are seeking at marriagebuilders...

I feel like people give suggestion, perspective, and advice, one after another.....

but I am not sure that is what you want and am running out of suggestions.....

what do you want??????


here's perhaps my final suggestion...

I've often wondered if his only real 'loves' in life are his pets. I don't think he trusts people every much. Not even me.


look real pertty.....when he comes home....smell fabulous...

smile at him....

tell him that when he's not home you kick his animals....hard so they yelp....
and if he doesn't get them and himself out in the next thirty days....

your plan is to get rid of them.....wink wink wink

then batt your pretty eyes and walk away...

I'd do that....
that's what I'd do..

desperate times
desperate measures...

ARK

catperson,

I'm not sure I'm willing to take on a bunch of freshmen and sophomores.

<shiver>

Mys

mys, you may think that, but I think you'd be surprised by how much it would invigorate you to be around 100 happy, enthusiastic, OPTIMISTIC, people.

Please consider it. You're making so much progress from last year. Don't stop now. Open up your possibilities. You can always quit and move out.

Ark,


I want to save my marriage. That is why I am here.

The general consensus seems to be that I need to Plan B. So I'll give that a try. I do not want a divorce.

Fair enough?

Mys

I'll check it out but I'm not sure they'd allow it because I'm considered faculty. I think that might blur the line a bit too much.

On the other hand, they might be thrilled about it. I am a pretty good tutor in a number of subjects.

Mys

I think the ONLY way he will EVER learn to respect you is if you respect yourself and go Plan B. DARK Plan B.

do you want a divorce to the point of accepting things as status quo as they are TODAY...
\
never changing....

are you willing to stay in the marriage with him if he changes NOTHING>.....

these are not challenging defensive questions...

these are your thoughts on this...
so people know what you really want....

if your marriage of today is the same marriage next year.....is it an acceptable partnership to you

what do you base not wanting to be divorced on

ark

No, I don't want to be married "like this"
Rather, to say, I would divorce but I still wouldn't want to.

I base my not wanting to divorce on BOTH of us making necessary changes.

To sum up I want to do everything practical to save this marriage.

Mys

what changes are you working on in the marital relationship realm right now....

not your own career...schooling...financial....etc..

but on the relationship

you said earlier he says you can be over negative...

do you agree

are you/have worked on changing that...

how is that going....

what else does he say are his 'reasons' for the affair...

and while in his case he has little to no right to put any of this on you.....

we do discuss here at MB the WS supposed 'reasons' for the affair and encourage BS to remove those obstacles from the excuse menu...
so that it has to come back full circle to their choices..inspite of what a BS did or didn't do...

so what his reasons.....

OK-- Mys... we need to start formulating a plan here.

So, we've established the following (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. You are going to leave the house, and you are going to find a small apartment for yourself. You do not have anyone close that you could stay with (really? Even for a few weeks? A family member, co-worker, friend?)

2. Your finances are all joint

3. You live in KS (I know nothing about KS state laws... anyone chime in here? I'm a law dud, so the law part I'm not going to be much of a help with).

4. We need plan B.

So, here's what I think we need to do first.

1. I do think you need to visit a lawyer, find out YOUR RIGHTS in your state if you decide to leave the house. Many do free first time consultations. This isn't stepping towards divorce, its learning your RIGHTS. Knowledge is freedom. At the very least, I do like the idea of the women's shelter, and I think that they would probably also have a good deal of legal knowledge. So, bust out those yellow pages and start making a few calls. See if you can get an appointment set up within the next few days. Don't tell your H what you are doing.

2. If there's really NO ONE that you can stay with for a few weeks (which I think would be best to get you through the worst of the "withdrawal" from this awful man-- and then also you don't have to worry about signing leases, etc.... )... then start going to look at apartments.

3. It concerns me a bit when you say things like "you don't want to take anything but one or two personal items". I'm not saying you should take him to the cleaners, but don't short yourself. You are going to need cooking utensils, bedding, bathroom stuff, etc. Don't leave that all for him and buy new stuff-- that's not fair! Stand up for yourself Mys. Remember, the reason you are leaving is because he's being an @ss. Don't let him be an @ss and have his cake too (ie, keep everything!).

4. Get your own checking and savings account... like, yesterday. In fact, I think this should be #1 on your list, and you should do it TODAY. In your name ONLY. Start putting YOUR paychecks in there. If you think he'd notice that, then start transferring small amounts of money you think he wouldn't notice until we have our ducks in a row....

My point is Mys, we need to DO things and work towards getting you out of there. It IS the only way he's ever going to respect you-- EVER. And the only way you will ever be able to save your marriage. As back-@ss-wards as it sounds, you are doing this for your marriage-- because its not going to survive this way and "normal" methods of getting through to him have failed.

No more sitting here on this board discussing things. Lets empower you-- and lets do that by WORKING towards this.

I know you want to save your M, but I think you need a little distance from the M at this point in order to see things clearly. I often see a lot of debate on threads from people about what people should or shoudln't do... but this is one of the few times the consensus is clear. Plan B. Its just a matter of HOW you should do it at this point. So lets get rolling. It will be hard and scary at first, but in the long run so worth it.

OK, enough reading, and get your butt to the bank for your OWN account. And break out the yellow pages, call a women's shelter and/or lawyer. Those are your assignments for today, Mys.

E.

Ark,

He says that I am a negative person and he wasn't getting adequate return on his investment in the relationship.

He describes negativity as: always wanting to talk about the relationship, talking about negative events that are going on in my life (my father's heart surgery), talking about negative emotions such as frustration, anxiety, or depression.

I have more or less stopped talking to him about those things. No more family updates. No more general expressions of how I feel. No more bad news unless it directly affects him.

He also complained that I wasn't as much fun as he'd like me to be. He loves to ride motorcycles so I (basically) made the decision to buy 2 motorcycles and have been trying to learn to ride. He says he's not having fun with me yet because I'm still too much of a novice but I really don't know how to fix that without riding more.

He also complained about sex. So I have been initiating sex an average of 2-3 times a week regardless of how he treats me.

He said (in marriage counseling) that if I would do those 3 things he would be completely satisffied with me, however, that still doesn't seem to be the case. That is what I have done.


He says he's happy with the relationship now but he's afraid it will go back to how it was - so he's not willing to commit to monogamy. He also promised to do things which he hasn't done - I confronted him about that last MC session. According to him, it's too hard. He also seemed very unhappy that I wasn't happier because things "are going so much better between us."


Mys

is he currently in physical relationships with OP
and
has he been tested....

have you....

ark

We've both been tested - negative.

I don't know if he's in a physical affair right now. He was registered on a bunch of "local adult finder's sites" which I asked him to delete and he said he "forgot" where they are. I know he still gets invitations and, unfortunately, I teach at night.

I know he's still in online EA's. Sunday, I found him chatting with a OW online. I asked if I could read the chat and he basically became very angry and said he "minded" and "nothing was going on" and then implied that I could go ahead but he was in a very agressive stance. I've read enough of the other evidence I didn't bother reading this one.

His reaction told me all I needed to know.

Mys

I rarely post to anyone on this forum anymore, as I have, so far, chosen to stay in a marriage similar to yours, but after reading your post, I have to say that I would encourage you to leave this man as soon as possible. If you do not have children, there is nothing to keep you there....don't let him ruin any of the rest of your precious life....he may change someday, but he will not change while you stay with him as he has no reason to change...

The analogy of you being his favourite pet hits straight home with me, too....it hurts, but it's true....

You deserve better than this. Believe that.

LIR

the good news is that you have done plan A...

you gotta wrap your mind around the idea...

you have made changes....

so that in plan B....

you know you did work on your side of the street...

these things should empower....

look whats the reason he hasn't divorced you yet...
what do you think that is..

"On the other hand, I don't know if he will or even can make a committment to our marriage."

Does it matter which is the problem?
won't or can't?

The fact is he ISN'T committed to the marriage.

I was married to a serial adulterer for 25 years.
I didn't realize he had a problem at first...
and I thought he was behaving himself for a decade before he moved out to be with OW at the end...

Just before I read your thread I was thinking about how easy it is for sex/porn addicts to get their next fix these days compared to just a few decades ago. Just a few decades ago there was no internet access 24/7 to porn, no internet access to the sort of people who'd be willing to meet up with strangers for sex. (tv wasn't even on overnight back then) I was thinking how at least back then sex addicts didn't have so much easy access to their next fix, so much non-stop temptation to deal with. I assumed my WXH's problem was mostly under control when he convinced me to put eveyrthing in storage and travel to his jobs in an RV with him - no more ONS's on business trips or dating OW when he went on contract assignments for a few months at a time... but once he started with the online porn it wasn't long before he 'fell in love' with an OW at work and moved out.

Maybe he can't stop.

So you tell him to move out and go into Plan B.

Maybe he won't stop.

So you tell him to move out and go into Plan B.

For whatever reason, he HASN'T stopped.

So you tell him to move out and go into Plan B.

Does it really matter WHY he is the way he is?

If it turns out he is a sociopath and can't change, would you really consider letting him stay and living the rest of your life this way?

If it turns out he can change but just doesn't care enough about you to change, would you really consider letting him stay and living the rest of your life this way?

Regardless of WHY he is the way he is, the longer you let him stay and accept his abuse the less likely he is to ever change.

Oh and I understand all about your hesitancy because of financial issues and such...

And so does he BTW. He's aware that you feel so dependent on him...

I made the mistake of not making a stand because I was scared (and because pre-internet as far as I could tell he was trying and behaving - he no longer went on business trips).

I didn't leave my WH.
He left me.

Don't assume that by staying with him you're buying yourself ANY SPECK real security, that somehow he will then feel obligated to never leave you. You may think you're somehow bargaining an agreement such as: 'well I didn't leave him even after what he did, so I can at least feel secure he won't leave me for an OW'.

It doesn't work that way, trust me.
I DID have to deal with all that financial stuff, and a divorce, and two suicidal daughters, and sometimes even myself feeling suicidal, all at once, at a time when I had just been diagnosed with severe (level 4) hypertension, with no relatives in the state, my resume having not been updated in 2 decades...

Get yourself ready girl ASAP.
Because even if you do not kick him out, he may just leave anyway.

Here's a strategy that helped me immensely when I was facing indecision, when fear and uncertainty started to paralyze me (in my case it was indecision over WH's dragging out his being 'torn' between me and OW over a few years and several false recoveries):

I made a Venn diagram with one circle containing my to-do list for if my WH stopped the divorce and came home. Another circle was filled with my to-do list for if my WH went through with divorcing me for the OW. There were a LOT of thigns common to both to-do lists, in the overlapping part of the Venn diagram. So whatever the WH's mood du jour was, whatever point he was at on his rollercoaster of wishy-washy-ness *I* still had my own plan I could be working on instead of waiting for him to decide.

Eventually I caught on that the things I was avoiding, getting my finances in order and becoming less dependent on him, belonged in that overlapping area too, not just in the 'if he leaves me for OW' circle. Becuase I realized that he was exploiting my dependency on him, counting on it to keep me too scared to set boundaries and to Plan B his butt.

YOU need to give no further thought to why your WH is a sex/porn addict because until he is willing to give it up, it's not even relevent, he just IS an addict is all you need to know for now.

YOU still need to have a plan to follow, to eliminate your dependency on him, and to be no-bluffing prepared to move on without him if he doesn't wise up.

Hi Mys,

Look below my moniker. You are not alone neighbor!

My mom has bipolar disorder and alcohol killed my dad in 1993. I'm an only child.

Oh yes, I WAS married to a serial cheater too. That is what brought me here in 2000. At the time I joined I wanted to know what "I" did to have a guy cheat for 12 years. Well duh, I know better now! The kicker is that I didn't find out he cheated until AFTER I left him. People literally came out of the woodwork with information, names, places, years.

I can't IMAGINE what it feels like to have him do this right under your nose! The pain he is willing to inflict on you says he is not marriage material. He pretended. To me when someone cheats over and over from pretty much day 1 the contract (marriage) you signed was bogus and you have a great big OUT mentally and physically! (to me from my experience)

My adult daughter was so darned angry I'll never forget the loud words "Mom, HE COULD HAVE KILLED YOU!!!". (std's)

You HAVE to make a plan and follow through. Like what was said before one foot in front of the other. It may feel like you have 100 lb weights around your ankles. That is NORMAL!

You are one smart lady and I think you'd feel healthier faster the sooner you get away from your abuser. He IS abusing you!

I care!!!

I'm 45 miles from the KS/NE line in the south central tri-city area.

Oh PUH-LEAZE!

mys, do you see that this is a man who wants everything he wants, gives nothing because it doesn't help him, cares nothing about your happiness because it doesn't benefit him, and keeps you around cos you're giving him regular SF and probably food and cleaning?

Why would you want that crap? There are MUCH better men out there, just waiting to meet you.

What? No way should it take a YEAR!!! That is NUTS!!! He made the decision to commit to the marriage WHEN HE GOT MARRIED!!!

(Sorry to shout Mys, but my level of frustration with your husband is through the roof after reading your thread...the shouting isn't at you, though if it will help you take ACTION, I will gladly shout "til the cows come home"...)

I can assure you that your husband is VERY HAPPY with your counselors as they are allowing him the status quo at YOUR expense!!!

ENOUGH!!!

NO MORE.

THIS.

MUST.

STOP.

NOW.

TODAY...YOU decide that YOU are worth it...That LIFE is VALUABLE and far too precious to waste another second living like this...


Firstly, I will say that I am not one that buys the sexual addiction theory...I think that the psychology arena has decided to give SELFISH OVERINDULGENCE a name that they can try and "treat"...It is "therapism"...Instead of just calling it what it is... SIN/DEVIANT BEHAVIOR...Your husband is CHOOSING this...I do not believe for one second that it is an "illness" that he does not have the power to control...

And yes, Plan B would MOST CERTAINLY "work" on "addicts" - actually it is a GREAT way to let them know that their choice to behave in that way is UNACCEPTABLE and REMOVES you from the equation - Boundaries work GREAT with abusive people...Please remember though that Plan B is about and for YOU...Whether it will "work" on him is not the issue at hand...


Mys, you need to bring the bottom UP...His hitting rock bottom may very well depend on YOU taking ACTION...Otherwise you just enable him to continue to abuse you...Enabling is NOT kind to either one of you...


He will not change until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change...Count on it Mys...

You must ACT...

Let's start with steps...

1. Get out your phone book...look up attorneys...Call one...Find out about legal separation/getting him removed from the house/temp spousal support...etc...

Come back here, report and we'll go from there...

Ready...Set...GO...

See you in a bit...

Mrs. W

FYI: I know a couple of MB'ers located in KS.

You are right to choose Plan B, MYS. Don't make any decisions about divorce while you are in this precarious mental state. You don't have to make any decisions under duress. Better to make such a decision after a few months in Plan B when you have your strength back and have a sound mind with which to make a good decision.

Agree Mel!

Just to clarify, calling an attorney regarding legal separation would only be a means to get Myschae's husband out of the marital home and cover her financial bases...

Mys, consulting an attorney/filing for legal separation is not the same as divorcing...I am certainly not suggesting that you make that kind of decision right now...

Mrs. W

And don't forget about opening your own bank account-- in your name ONLY-- TODAY!

You have two missions today:

1. Call the women's shelter/a lawyer. SOMEONE with law knowledge and can help guide you legally.

2. Get your own bank account set up in ONLY your name.

3. Do not tell your H about either of these things-- do it for you!

Mys--

DON'T EVER GROW A WISHBONE WHERE YOUR BACKBONE SHOULD BE!

E.

ETA: I think finding the other MBs that live near you might be a good thing, if they are willing to communicate with you off the boards, even by telephone. They can help you follow the plan when you feel that you are slipping-- and its better than having to get to a computer, coming here, and posting and waiting for a response... (not that I'm suggesting you leave here... just a more "immediate" support system might help)... kinda like an AA sponsor...

Dunno who they are or if they'd be willing... just a thought since someone brought it up...

Mys,

It's been a minute since I've been on the boards but a dear friend asked that I look at this thread, Thanks RAGS......

Anywhichwho, it looks like you've got some wonderful advice thus far on this terrible situation. So you know, I'm a recovering Drug Addict with over 4 years clean, so I have a bit of insight on how addiction works.

So let me briefly talk about him. First off, lets presume this is some type of addiction. Addicts lie, cheat, steal, and basically do anything possible to get their next fix. Addicts feel little if no remorse for anything as they live in a self-centered world and somehow/someway, this whole thing is someone elses FAULT (I think you said he blamed you because you were "negative"). I will say right up front that I totally disagree with advice of "confronting him", to me that is beating a dead horse.

In my humble opinion, the only thing an addict can understand is a hard cold consequence. That consequence may be from you putting up a strong boundary, though I doubt it. It may come from getting a disease. It may come from you moving out. It may come from you filing for legal seperation and getting alimony. It may come from a divource. He's the problem, you truly have no control over which of these, if any, will have a profound enough impact upon his life to get him to turn things around. As an example, I as a divorced addict ran my car into a bridge breaking 21 bones. I was in and out of hospitals/nursing homes for 3 months & that was not a strong enough consequence for me to quit my addiction. It planted a seed that maybe someday I'd stop. However, not having my girls for one weekend as a result of my addiction, was enough to get me to seek help.

With all that being said, my personal opinion would say that it's time for a serious Plan B. And quite honestly, as that's been talked out on the boards all I've heard from you is "I don't know how I could do it". I fully realize and appreciate that it is a scary proposition but please look at a couple of things;

1. Look at the out pouring of love and care flowing from this board.

2. Look at the support group rallying behind you, offering to pick you up in your time of need and run the race with you.

So, if that were to be the desired course of action, I'd ask to seek an attitude of "How can I make this happen" and look at all the avenues that open up to you.

Lastly, I also live in the Sunflower State, born and raised in Dodge City but I now live in Salina. I know a little about the laws here.

Mys,

what would you think about getting together with Ragamuffin and LH at some point, make new friends who could also be some type of support system for you..it sounds like both of them would be willing to at least meet with you.

Maybe the group of you could meet for coffee sometime??

Mys--

Did you get your bank account and call a lawyer/women's shelter yesterday?

Check in with us!

E.

Mys--

You've posted on a few other threads today, so I know you've been around...

Are you avoiding my (our) questions?

I'm assuming you didn't make any phone calls or go to the bank yesterday... or you probably would have told us about it...

What steps are you taking for YOURSELF TODAY??

You can't come here for help and just vent or complain... if you want out of this situation, you have to DO something... or it will do nothing but get worse and make you feel worse-- its not gonna get better on its own. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is insanity.

So, at the VERY least, please call a women's shelter to get legal advice, or call a lawyer and set up a free consultation just to learn your RIGHTS--- TODAY!

That's not getting divorce, it is educating yourself and covering your tookus. And making sure you are prepared.

I still think you should set up your own bank account too, Mys-- but for now the most important thing is getting some legal advice.

Let us know what's going on, what you've DONE.

ETA: I don't want this to come across as harsh or 2x4ing-- I really don't. I'm really concerned about you Mys, and wish I lived closer to KS-- I'd track your butt down, drag you out out for a cup of coffee to browse the yellow pages for options! Unfortunately, that would involve me buying a plane ticket though ...

I think that coffee with the above mentioned MBs would be really beneficial for you.

Please check in Mys. I don't want you to disappear, you need help, we are here for you!


E.

{{{{Mys}}}}

I haven't seen any advice here to disagree with. Plan B is necessary, but it's not the end of your marriage! It's the beginning of a new you! One who can take care of herself for a time!

Confrontining in love? it means that you love the person so much, you keep them from harming others (including yourself) becasue you know how much damage that does to them and others.

Think of Lord Voldemort. When he killed, it ripped his soul. When we harm others, a similar thing happens. In time, we dont' even recognize ourselves.

Preventing someone from harming others is not an evil, hateful thing. It is done in love! It is done to protect a person from their own actions, and done to protect others from the consequences of their actions.

I don't think you could act with anything but love, Mys. I think you love L too much to do anything hateful to him, even if you got a little bit angry or frustrated or pissy.

That is not selfish. You are supposed to have some aspect of self-preservation. That's what makes you human.

So, confronting him in love? You already know what that is.

You know what I think? I think you punish yourself any time you think you've hurt someone else, especially someone you love like L. But, I don't think you've done anything to harm him, and there is, as you already know, a difference between hurt and harm.

I think it's important that you get comfortable with hurting others when you know that the short-term pain will translate into long-term gain, such as telling your students to keep time tables, or the other challenges you provide. This makes them better programmers.

All you are doing here, is challenging L to become a better husband so that you can have a good relationship, a better one, one that is satisfying for the both of you, but that starts with some boundaries. Tendency toward a totally dependent relationship on your part is unacceptable, not to mention dangerous, as it seems has been evidenced here!

I don't know what all has happened since the last time I posted, but I am sorry for the loss of your husband and best friend, as you knew him.

There is still love in the world, Mys. There is still love for you, even if through a computer. There is still protection and safety for you.

Plan B isn't about giving up; it's about the very thing you want to do: save your marriage.

You know where I am; contact me, any time.

YIM

Myschae,

I am sorry for all you have suffered. All of it.

Like the others here, I doubt it is in your best interest to stay with your H. He is abusive. You know it, too. This is codependency. I learned a lot about codependency form Alanon – my family is full of addicts.

One of the things children of addicts and abusive parents do is marry the same kind of person. It’s astounding how often this happens. You are still a prisoner of your childhood. As I was when I married my wife.

My W was in a VLTA that lasted half our M. And an EA (possible PA) before that. Even after I found out about these A’s I stayed because I was too scared to leave. Confrontation is scary. I was a card carrying member of CA International. I used every excuse I could think of to avoid making her think about what she was doing head on including stuffing it, using ADs, thinking endurance was best for the kids and venting to a series of incompetent ICs.

Confrontation is complicated. It is an art. It takes practice. You will learn by doing. Slowly and in small things at first.

But at the moment you have nothing to confront him with. You know. He knows. He knows you know. You know he knows you know. What’s to confront?

I did not have family I could lean on. And I sacrificed most of my friends to my abusive M, like abused women tend to do (even though I am a guy).

I wanted to die, too. Not suicide. At least not active. Just disappear and die. I hoped for it.

But I eventually had to choose slow death or risk it all. You will have to risk it all too.

Life is much, much better for me now. I confronted both W and OM. Then I stood up and turned away. W left for six months but then begged to come back. We are not divorced, although it may still come to that, yet the M is much better than it was when W was so abusive.

I felt so much better after I took control of my life I can’t describe it.

I see a lot of strength in you. More than you realize you have. I truly see you getting control of your emotions and standing up.

Hope is not a plan. You need to plan! Little steps at first.


With prayers,

PS: I don’t understand the past Oct D-Day. I see you registered and started posting back in 02. You certainly have gone down hill since then. Have you known about or suspected what is going on since 02?

PPS: If I could convince you of one and only one thing I would ask you to lean on God a bit. This is what got me through. And it wasn’t just hope. It was active intervention.

Mysch,

Please, just six months of not having any contact with him. That is not divorce.

My God, you are on mind altering prescription drugs because of this man. You don't need him. You do not need to be with a man that causes you to be on drugs just to cope.

Please get away from him. At least for six months.

Mysch, life is full of beautiful, wonderful people. And you are one of those people.

You are so smart, you have so much to offer and so much life to live. Please don't let this marriage take that away from you.

Marriage is supposed to be a place where love grows, where love expands, first between the two in it and then outwards to the community. It is a place of security, where hope and dreams grow. A safe place where love grows. This is it's purpose.

Just six months Mysch. And then re-evalutate.

Yesterday I took a significant downswing and had to all my support team in to call me down from the edge. I think medc is right. It's not fair to use these boards with the amount of suicidal ideations I am experiencing now.

I want to thank everyone for your support now but I need more than this board can feasibly offer.

Thank you all,

Mys

that's not even close to what I said...But...




Your are right about this. You need help FAR beyond what can be offered on an internet site. Please get impatient help before it is too late. If your doctors do not agree...get new doctors. You are a classic case of someone that needs inpatient care.

God bless. Take care of yourself Mys.

Mys has been mistreated all of her life. She seems to me to be a gentle soul, floundering in a sea of the human condition.

I WANT her to find the Lord, because He knows right where she is, but, I can't give her that faith. She has to find that within, or rather, it's in the Lord's hands if she finds it or not.

She may be a classic case of needing in-patient care, but at the same time, I see no reason she should have ever been driven that far (and I honestly don't think it's been any of our words that have done it, but the dire situation she is in).

I hope she realizes it is the situation she is in, can find some way to handle that situation, both emotionally and practically, and agree that she will probably need help to do that.

At the same time, I hope that she realizes that it is not a fault within her that has disabled the coping ability, but, again, her surroundings. Anyone whose most fundamental needs are unmet as hers have been would probably buckle, if not in suicidal ideation, then in some other application of that anger.

Mys,

This problem is bigger than you and out of your control. That those closest to you have chosen not to treat you with love and respect is NOT YOUR FAULT! That you can't handle these facts all by yourself is NOT YOUR FAULT! We were not built to handle things things alone! That means that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU! We ALL need help, sometimes.

We Christians find all the love we will ever need and more in our Lord. Please consider that if you still choose to reject Him, it will probably take much more than one person to fill your needs, with any sort of adequacy--> a tall order for an introvert, like you and me, and not especially efficient, besides.

Please take time to convolesce. Take the time you need! Don't worry about L. Please just focus on getting better in your thoughts and make all those necessary decisions later, when you feel stronger. You've taken such a difficult blow, my friend. No one here judges you or your abilities.

In prayer,

YIM

I agree that this is not her fault...Mys does need to take a stand now though...before it is too late. She cannot change one bit of what has happened to her...but she can decide that from this moment forward, she will do her best to take care of herself. I sincerely hope she does. She is obviously a good person dealing with too much right now.
It is just time to get some real help. What is wrong with her right now is that she doesn't see a way out of this except for suicide. That is an illness that needs to be addressed. It can and will get better...but she needs to reach out to the right people and demand the appropriate level of care. This is NOT an issue that can be handled on an outpatient basis.
Her coming to God right now is not the answer to these problems(although it is not a bad idea if she does!). While it will afford her some comfort in these stressful times...she sincerely is in need of medical care.

Mys...please reach out to someone and get the help you need. You can do this. There is a very strong, capable woman inside of you. Fight for her and you will never regret it.

Absolutely, medc.

I hope that nothing I've said has even hinted that I thought you were saying there is something wrong with her, or even that I think knowing the Lord would be the only step she needs to take.

YIM

medc,


I have an emergency appt with my IC today and my psychiatrist tomorrow. I doubt either of them will recommend inpatient care. I'll try to do what they suggest. (I don't sugar coat the suicide to them)

Mys

If they don't bring up inpatient care could you? See if they think it might be a good idea for you.

All right.

Mys

Mys,

Are you anywhere close to Salina? I don't think I said anything in my post, but as Rags pointed out, there are people who'd be more than willing to visit with you and become more of a support group. While the names and faces are different, many of us have went through pretty much the same thing.

Anywhichwho, let me know. And if you'd like you can e-mail me bill@salinaplaningmill.com

I spoke with my IC and my psychiatrist today so right now I'm hopped up on some drugs. Both do not see me as an inpatient situation - they think this can be managed with meds.

I'm too something to post much now but wanted to let you know I'm OK for now. I'll be seeing my pysch tomorrow.

Mys

Thanks Mysch, for letting us know.

Well, it's been an interesting couple of days.

Sunday, L and I did a marriage exercise in which we both described what we needed out of a relationship. He listed an open marriage.

Apparently, even if I give him "enough" sex .. after some time it gets boring because, well, I'm always me. He's not sure if he can resist the urge to go find some other stimulation.

The whole session ended with us in bed (no sex) crying. Me because I know it's over - him because he's sorry he hurt me.

I don't see a way for this to work out which is why I am so tremendously sad.

Mys

mys,

I am sorry that it isn't as you want and wish it to be.

While "this" (your marriage to him) might not work out..."YOU" will.

Life is full of twists and turns that are forced on us.

YOU can go with it....lean with it...not against it.

I have seen your posts to others that are in despair and I see the strength that you offer to them.

Harness some of that strength for yourself. Apply that strength to your situation. Be your own best friend and take care of yourself.

He isn't right for you. You know that you can't force a round peg into a square hole.

Take care of yourself and keep posting to let us know how you are faring.

committed

committed and loving it,


I'm doing better with meds adjusted. I'm functional again. Monday I just fell into a million little pieces.

I'm just so SAD - I wanted to grow old with this man. I can't even imagine a future with out him beside me, he's such a part of my life. And, though people say he was never my best friend - he WAS in my mind which makes it so. I feel as though the bottom has fallen out of my life and here I am with no past and no future I can imagine that doesn't suck.

I can't even think of ever trusting anyone enough to get that close again.

Mys

I couldn't imagine a future WITH someone that acts that way!



Obviously not a good part. Depression is a part of your life as well...I assume that you would like to rid yourself of that demon.



they are right



well, actually...NO..that doesn't make it so. Reality makes something "so." The reality is...he is a bad husband and worse, not a good person.



Why? You would be getting rid of the one thing that causes you the most pain...HE is the source of your hurt...HE is a fake...when he is gone, your life can begin anew without his cr@p weighing you down.

Use your intellect for a few minutes here...put your emotions on the shelf. Your husband has treated you horribly. He wants to be with other women. He has cheated on you numerous times. WHAT ARE YOU REALLY LOSING? I say flush this man down the toilet (where he belongs) and just worry about YOU for a change.

It is time to start dealing with facts here...not just feelings. The fact is...he sucks.

It's going to take time to get used to the idea that what you believed would be your future has all changed now, and the choice was not in your control, because he is the one choosing an open marriage over commitment to his marriage.

But once you get used to the idea, new ideas and dreams will take the place of the old one.

You know how powerful your mind is. You know you can convince it of anything you want. You have convinced yourself that your happiness depends on him making a commitment to the marriage.

Now you have to start to change your thought patterns away from this. You have control over where you allow your thoughts to go.

If you knew that you could be happy without him, would you choose this Mysch?

I don't know what kind of meds they have you on or how numbed out they make your head, but if I was you, and I have been in a serious depression before so I know how absolutely horrible you feel, I would begin to direct my mind away from him. Everytime I thought of him, and how hopeless my future was without him, I would immediately stop it and redirect it to some happier thought.

Use your imagination to imagine a world where you are happy and out of this pain/darkness and what you are doing. What you are wearing, how your great little place looks, on the water even, with lots of friends and good books and good cooking, etc. Imagine yourself laughing and happy.

Your going to have to use your mind to get you out of this hole.

My sister once said to me when I was in a suicidal depression that I think was brought on by PTSD because of an assualt that happened to me, she said to me when I was trying to explain my fears to her - "Well, that is the beauty of life, we just never know what is around the next corner, isn't that WONDERFUL". Of course I couldn't appreciate it at the time, but I have learned to imbrace it. Took some work though.

Hope that makes some kind of sense, Myschae.

Also, if you can force yourself to get on a tread mill, or some other type of exercise. They told me that a prolonged despression wrecks havoc on the happy chemicals in the brain, even worse than they already are and physical exercise helps to bring them back into balance.

They tried to put me on Elivil, or something that sounds like that, but it made me feel too weird, so I opted for the mind techniques and exercise. You might try them along with the meds. Might work a heck of a lot faster than it did for me without them.

I'm so sorry that you are in this type of dispair, I know of this darkness and the empty black hole.

Wish we could wave a wand and get you out of it.

Are you working now Mysch? I know you are almost done with your Masters, but can't remember if you have been working outside of your home or just concentrating on school.

School in itself is so stressful, that alone can cause terrible, major depression.

But he doesn’t want to grow old with you - not with you only anyway. It makes no sense to force him to do something he does not want to do. Why would you want that for him? As abusive as he is, do you have the right to force him to go to a place he does not want to go?

He is the bad part of your life, though. He is like a canker sore in your mouth. You keep fiddling with it and it becomes the biggest thing in your entire life. It actually feels good to fiddle with it. You can't imaging not having that sore it's so intrusive in your consciousness.

This is fuzzy thinking. I believe you, but it is still fuzzy thinking. All kinds of things are in everyone’s mind that are not true, and thinking so does not make any of them true. Get out of your head. Find something real to think about. World hunger maybe. Local abused woman’s shelter maybe. Concentrate on your class work. Anything – just not on obvious illusions.

Listen to Josie, she knows what she is talking about. You have a horrible past. You have a miserable present. Your future does not yet exist. Your future will be what you make of it. It is important you understand that this miserable guy you are obsessed with cannot make your future for you. He can be in your future if you so choose, but he cannot make your future for you. Only you can do that. And it can be any reality-based and wonderful future you choose.

You are not supposed to think of this - yet. Way too early. Trust will come, don’t be in such a hurry.

With prayers,

medc,


I understand what you're saying intellectually - but emotionally, I can't come to grips with it. I have MEMORIES of a life. Memories that now don't exist. It's like I woke up from a coma and 15 years had passed and it was all a dream.

Emotionally is the problem. If I didn't have emotions or could shut them off somehow, then I guess I'd be fine - I don't know. I wouldn't be me, though.

Mys

JosieJones


Everything's going to take time. Divorcing, separating our junk, selling the house, moving, That's sort of the worst part about it. If you could magically not have to go through each ripping, tearing, piece of the process of dismantling all you built - it would almost be tolerable.


Oh, a mix of anti-anxiety, ssri's and an anti-psychotic thrown in for good measure. I'm pretty well numbed out -- sort of. It's hard to describe. But, I'm not having suicidal fantasies.


I can't think that far ahead. I can only think to the next step.


It does make sense but I'll confess I'm afraid of the next corner. Lately the corners haven't been friendly.

Mys

Aphelion,


Where did you get the impression I wanted to force him into anything?

Besides, growing old together was MY dream .. I don't know his..(well, some of them)


I know this relationship isn't going to work but there was some good in there, somewhere. It can't all have been bad.........can it? What do I do with my memories?


Might be the meds, they tend to fuzz things out and around.


My goodness, obsessed with? I just had this confirmed last Sunday and I'm obsessed. Don't I get a little time to process? My goodness do people really just turn it off like a light that quickly?


Thank you. Trust will take a very, very long time - if ever.

Mys

Well you got your spunk back, and that has to be a good thing.


I tend to put memories where they belong.

As Emmy Lou Harris once sang, "once a page is read, all but love is dead".

That is true. You know Mysch, I had to force myself to stop loving my DD's dad, the love of my life. Being with him was killing me. But I had a little baby that needed a momma, so in that respect I was left with little choice. I was lucky that way, in that I had no choice. A little life depended on me getting over him and creating a new life. You don't have that, so it is going to be doubly hard for you.

I wanted to address what you said about dividing things up, and that was what you needed to focus on now. No, don't focus on that, too many details, too sad at this time. People separate before divorce for a reason, this is one of them, and the other one is to have the time they need to decide if divorce is in fact what they want, and if recovery is possible.

My suggestion is to file for legal separation where all the assets would be frozen, and this would give you the time you need, until you were ready to think about such things. If you chose to go this route, a lawyer would make sure your best interests were seen to.

Thinking about dividing up stuff is too much for you, it is not the time. The time now is to get to whatever place you need to get to for your own sake.

If you feel that it has just been since Sunday and you need time to process all this, then take that time, but whatever you do don't allow yourself the opportunity to dwell and sink deeper into depression. Sometimes swift action is necessary. People do this as a survival tool. Swift action I mean.

I did go look into opening a checking account at the school today. I would be pretty easy.

Mys

Well, that's something, hey? I've never had a joint checking account. Isn't that strange? I've never married my fortune with any one elses. LOL

That reminds me of a Simon & Garfunkel song I used to love -

~~" let us be lovers we'll marry our fortunes together
Ive got some real estate here in my bag
So we bought a pack of cigarettes and mrs. wagner pies
And we walked off to look for america
kathy, I said as we boarded a greyhound in pittsburgh
michigan seems like a dream to me now
It took me four days to hitchhike from saginaw
Ive gone to look for america"~~

I was trying to think of something that helped me when I realized I needed to get away from my DD's dad. It wasn't that I didn't love him, because I loved him more than life itself, but I realized finally that it was killing me.

I think Mysch, what helped me the most was that I came to understand that I didn't have to stop loving him (that, in my mind, was an impossible feat, and one I didn't want to do anyway)...I finally realized (decided) that I didn't have to stop loving him, I just had to get away from him. I could love him from afar. It was important to me that I didn't have to stop loving him.

I was so much in love that I remember telling my dad (an ex military war hero who probably thought I had lost my mind) that DD's dad had the most beautiful handwriting I had ever seen. My dad would just shake his head, and I'm thinking he was saying to himself "daughter, oh boy you have it bad".

I do know what you are going through. At first I was likening you to myself and the ex that brought me here, the lying, cheating POS, but now I'm thinking that you are worried about the love you feel for your husband. That was what I felt for DD's dad. It was such a hard thing to do, to leave him, but I had to.

Anyway, I was looking for something inspiring today, and came across a quote that made me think of you, so I post it here, for you -

Use your mind to your advantage, Mysch, don't allow it to wonder to and fro.

"The possibilities of thought training are infinite, its consequence eternal, and yet few take the pains to direct their thinking into channels that will do them good, but instead leave all to chance." ~Marden

myschae;




Yes, I'm sure there were good times and good memories, so lets look at that for a moment.

The actions, the things you did together WERE AND ARE REAL, those were not a dream or a lie. Your feelings about those things are also REAL, they are not a lie, nor are they a dream.

So what part of it isn't real? Well, that could be the feelings or thoughts we assume another person has, that really don't exist.

Lets look at an example.

You've mentioned your husband is a gamer, so you decide to sit down and play a game with him, you really don't enjoy the game itself, but you do enjoy spending time with your husband.

Now because you played the game, and had fun while doing so, he assumes you now like gaming as much as he does, and tries to get you into other games, and he gets upset that your not getting into it as much as he is since *you* had fun and liked it so much.

So while, yes, you played the game, and yes you had fun..however, his assumption you had fun because you 'liked' the game would be wrong, the truth is you had fun because you were spending time with him, not because you actually LIKED the game.

So is his assumption correct that you had fun because you actually enjoyed the game; or is your truth correct *you* had fun because you were spending time with him, and not because you enjoyed playing the game.

So it's not necessarily two different realities, it's more assumptions of how they think someone else feels/thinks based on what they themselves feel/think.

So while your memories are real, you (like all of us do at some point and time) assume the other person feels/thinks the same thing about those things.

So while you feel love towards your husband and have some wonderful memories of your time together, your feelings about how YOU felt are real..it's just your understanding of how he really felt may be off, and that's understandable, in that he has lied to you about so many things including how he's felt.

You can't know his *true* feelings unless he shares them, and therefore, your left making assumptions as to how he feels, just as he can't know your *true* feelings unless you tell him.

So the craziness comes from your being forced to live with assumptions brought about by his lying to you about how he really felt.

So why has he lied to you for so long? Maybe his own fear of being alone, and the belief that having someone there next to you will some how make him *feel* less lonely? When in reality, merely having someone there next to you doesn't always make a person 'feel' less lonely, often times they feel even more alone.

it also sounds like he's living his life based on his belief that this is the only thing there is..there is no eternal life (good or bad) and so he must have as much 'fun' in this life as he can before he dies..before he goes off into nothingness for all eternity.

> “Where did you get the impression I wanted to force him into anything?”

From all of your posts. Not physically force, but emotionally. Unable to wake up from the dream kind of force.


> “I know this relationship isn't going to work but there was some good in there, somewhere. It can't all have been bad.........can it? What do I do with my memories?”

I can definitely relate. I have memories of a sacred long-term marriage untainted by adultery. Then I find out more than half of it was a lie. Memories are just that – memories. Pages in a book already read. Dwelling on memories is counterproductive, for me anyway. And indeed, I now realise most of it was bad.

You yourself wrote your memories have evaporated.


> “Might be the meds, they tend to fuzz things out and around.”

I know. I was on ADs for a year two different D-days each. They have changed me. I do not think as clearly as I once did. (And it isn’t age dammit - not yet.) Math I used to be able to do in my head, answers to complicated problems I could just see, now take paper and pencil. Such a waste of time paper and pencil. And I can’t write, hold as many ideas in my head at once, as well as I used to. I loose the thread of things more often than I ever did before all this.


>”My goodness, obsessed with? I just had this confirmed last Sunday and I'm obsessed. Don't I get a little time to process? My goodness do people really just turn it off like a light that quickly?”

Ah, now we are getting somewhere. I like this response a lot. You still have spark in you! This is a very good attitude to have. It will carry you far. I am encouraged. Keep it up.

Oh, and no, normal people can’t just turn it off like a light switch.


Pay attention to Josie. She is good smart people.

And if you don’t mind, I added you, your recovery and your future to my prayers.

With prayers,

Myschae - have you considered that his "idea" of sex with his wife is founded in the idea that sex is "all about" performance?

A long time ago I mentioned a book called Magnificent Marriage, by Gordon MacDonald. There is some very good information in there about the whole issue and the "difference" in one's orientation toward not just marriage, but the "act of marriage."

Perhaps L would be willing to put aside his disgust with anything "non-atheistic" for a little bit and just consider the concepts presented in that book as something to consider. Obviously, his "getting tired" of the "same old, same old" is the problem, and if it's ever going to change FOR HIM, he needs to "wrestle" with concepts of WHY monogamy in marriage is best and why he might be "thinking the wrong way" about sex.

What do you think, would he entertain such a study rather than go straight to divorce without "giving it a REAL try" first?

That is extremely immature and very selfish behavior for someone in a marriage, or committed relationship. All he cares about is himself and men like this can never be satisfied. And, you will never be happy with him because of it.


I agree that you know it's over, because he is so selfish and immature, that you can see that he has no desire to change, and you know that. A future with him is hopeless.


I understand your pain, boy do I ever. You're going to have to let go of what could be, and come to grips with what is.

At least if you remove yourself from this situation, you have a chance at happiness with someone else later down the road. If you stay with this selfish and immature man, it's likely you will never have that chance, especially if he is not fully repentent and remorseful for the damage he caused.

Go to plan B and get healthier, away from him. Learn to validate your own feelings, by yourself. You don't need him to validate them for you. It'll never happen, unless he wants you bad enough to try to recover this marriage with you. Right now, all he cares about is himself. That is so obvious to everyone here. And I've been reading your story for quite some time now.

You can't see it or feel it yet, but once you've been in plan B for awhile, taking care of yourself and wounds, you will start to feel sooooo much better about yourself and your future. You will never be able to heal in the midst of this insanity.

And even his own hand is "other stimulation".

And btw, he is "not sorry" he hurt you. If he was really sorry and meant it, he would no longer do it. Actions speak much louder than words.

He may feel bad that he hurt you, but not enough to stop hurting you. He's probably just sorry that he's paying for the fact that he hurt you, not that he's REALLY sorry.