Perhaps I am just wired this way, but how do you "shut off" the sense of duty to protect your (F)WW? I see some BH's post statements that imply they just don't care what happens to the (F)WW. I struggle with this.

Jennifer taught my wife and I that if you are going to recover your marriage, it is your number one responsibility to protect each other. I'm not sure who is telling you otherwise, but it is critical to protect one another in recovery. No one I know that is working the MB program would tell you otherwise.

DR. HARLEY'S RULE OF PROTECTION:

1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.

If you and your husband want to be in love with each other, you must build your Love Bank accounts. But before you build them, you must be sure there are no leaks in the Love Bank. It's pointless to deposit love units into a sieve, where every deposit is promptly withdrawn by a Love Buster. So you must make a special effort to plug up those leaks by committing yourselves to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

The most obvious things spouses do to ruin their love for each other is what I call Love Busters. They are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, annoying behavior, selfish demands and dishonesty. I describe these destructive habits in my basic concepts, but if you need special help learning how to avoid them, I suggest you read, Love Busters: Overcoming Habits that Destroy Romantic Love. This book will help you identify the Love Busters that keep emptying your Love Bank accounts, and show you how to stop inflicting them on each other.

Rprynne,

I don't think we should. It is a husband's duty to protect his DW. Even it that means protecting them from themselves and their poor choices. Part of what led me toward recovery was a sense that I wanted to protect my DW and consequently our children from the untold damage that would be done had I chose not to. I am a man of my word and I took vows to do so. Just because DW choose to break those vows, doesn't mean that I should to.

Want2Stay

I am guessing they are dealing with ACTIVE waywards possibly.

Otherwise these BS's are in a state of mind called withdrawal.
As Dr. Harley expains it better, here is a quote.

FROM, The Three States of Mind in Marriage:

"When one spouse enters the state of Withdrawal, the other usually follows. After all, what is the point? If she is meeting none of his needs and rebuffing every effort he makes to meet hers, he might as well give up, too. The thoughtless behavior by each spouse toward the other becomes too great to bear, so they stop caring. Trust is a faint memory.

Emotional needs can be met only when we are emotionally vulnerable to someone who meets those needs. When we are in the state of Withdrawal, our emotional needs cannot be met because we've raised our defenses. Even when a spouse tries to meet an emotional need, the defensive wall blunts the effect to prevent any Love Bank deposits.

Couples in Withdrawal are really in a state of emotional divorce. When they've been in Withdrawal for any length of time, they will sleep in separate rooms, take separate vacations, and eat meals at different times. They will not communicate unless they must. If that doesn't work, they either separate or obtain a legal divorce."

Eventually, your ability to care will be destroyed by a WW. When you first learn of the affair, you want to protect your WW from everything.

The problem comes in when they do not want to be protected or when the WW projects all the problems of the marriage upon you. Therefore in her wayward reasoning, she needs protection from you.

It doesn't matter how much you care, as long as she's still wayward, there is no way for you to effectively protect her.

The rule of protection isn't about protecting her from everything else, such as the consequences of her decisions. It's making sure you are not a source of pain.

So, if she's already written you off, your attempts to win her back to the marriage, ironically, violate the rule of protection.

So how do you help and protect someone who while foggy from an affair, blames you for all the unhappiness in her life?

You get out.

That's the only way you can protect them.

Eventually, maybe, they'll figure out that you are not the source of their unhappiness, or at least you were not the sole source.

But it may be too late at that point to save the marriage.

RPRYNNE,

"they just don't care what happens to the (F)WW. I struggle with this."

As do I.

They must be in total pain and are striking out that way in their grief, and/or advocating and bragging about their revenge affairs.

AND/OR they are just posturing and down in their deepest heart of hearts they do care.

OR they have stayed together in a miserable dead marriage and that sense of duty rotted away...but it is easier than the alternative....and if something DID happen to the (F)WW then it would be a brand new day!!

Or its "for the kids".

IMHO

kirk

Chalk me up for these two reasons.

Doesn't mean I don't care....just not as much as I used to.

Thanks for the responses.

I guess I'm just having a rough day.

I do understand the rule of protection and my FWW is not an active WS. I just get stalled in taking action not so much because I worry what will happen to me, but because I worry what will happen to her. I am growing to hate that about myself, which feels like a tragedy.

Protect her from WHAT exactly? What do you mean EXACTLY by this?

rprynne,

"I just get stalled in taking action not so much because I worry what will happen to me, but because I worry what will happen to her"

OK, now I think I want to take back my first response, but maybe not!!

You get stalled in taking action to..what...protect your (F)WW?

And as Mel so eloquently put it, "protect her from what?"

Sorry, do not understand.

"what will happen to her" If you protect her? Or don't protect her?

confused kirk

I guess I just feel like my FWW is never really going to "get it" until I leave her. Once I leave her, I think she will eventually regret it very deeply and be miserable. That is a life I want to protect her from.

I still care more for her well-being than I do my own. I think that is protecting someone. I would assume most felt that way when they got married, so I asked how do they stop doing that.

I imagine you will tell me this is nonsense, which is why I said maybe I am just wired this way.

Protect myself.

K - Its an irony that you commented on this thread. The above was a quote from you on 08/30/2005, and that was what got me thinking about my question.

It's not nonsense.

It's what makes people like us (trying to save our marriages) more of the passionate type than some that could just "walk".

I have learned lately that passion is a good thing.

You protect things that you are passionate about.

The problem I see in your case (and I was guilty too) is that you need to become more passionate about your own well-being, and less worried about your WW's well-being.

Remember...even if you want to protect her, she cannot be protected by anyone else if she isn't protecting herself...it's a waste of time.

rprynne--

I think maybe the difference here is that some of these marriages are "in recovery" (although I personally debate whether or not they really are, but that's neither here nor there).

From what I gather, you still have a WW on your hands?

My personal stance is (coming from a FWW)... that a active WW shouldn't get any protection from the consequences of their own actions. If they take a huge fall, so be it-- school of hard knocks, ya know? You can't protect anyone from their own stupidity. My H tried to protect me, and I wish he wouldn't have, actually. I appreciate him and love him for the fact that he did NOW, but I didn't appreciate it then. I see it as a huge sacrifice he made now-- and a stupid one. I wish he wouldn't have, and would have let the school of hard knocks deal me lesson after lesson. I think I would have learned faster... that's why I don't like the BH's around here with ACTIVE WW that don't do anything about it. That's what my H did. He did everything they tell you NOT TO here... from giving me $$ while I was out of the house, to "leaving" the house when I "needed time to think"... blah blah blah

Where I think the story changes is once you've got a repentant FWW on your hands that is really going the distance, maintaining NC, etc etc (and for more than a few days-- that's stepped up and consistently done the work). Then I am with you. I just don't get it then. There's a few around here tho... not everyone can let things go that easily. My H had a hard time too, and a lot of what he said to me and did was much like some of the more "angry" posters here. Some of them are years out of their D-days tho... at which point, I would tend to think its NEVER gonna get any better...

I give my H credit-- recently (the past few months) he's REALLY stepped up and started doing his half. We still have our lows, but they aren't nearly as frequent or as often. And he seems to be opening up again, slowly, slowly. And we are falling in love again. Its like a MB picturesque story

E.

EXACTLY.

I guess that was what I was trying to say in my long-winded post above

E.

So, if I were a practicing alcoholic, you would protect me from the consequences because you "care" about me? What you are doing is called ENABLING, not protecting. Your W will not ever get it because she doesn't have to GET IT. She doesn't have to be a decent wife and she is less of a person for it. She gets away with being a non participant in your marriage. Both of you suffer as a result.

People change, grow and mature as a result of CONSEQUENCES; ie: the pain that comes as a from our ACTIONS. THAT is the impetus for change. That is how we GROW as a human being into a BETTER PERSON. That is how we build character.

You are "protecing" her from growing into a better person.

That is NOT the protection Dr. Harley teaches.

Dr. H's protection is about each spouse protecting the other from words and actions that can hurt the other. It is NOT about protecting the spouse from consequences from his/her OWN actions. That is enabling, not protecting.

What you are describing is being a doormat and IMO you are accepting that this is all you are going to get.

She needs to do more than just stop her affair rpryne. Unless things have dramatically changed in your situation and her attitude I don't think she's done a single thing to earn that "F" tag yet.

Your protecting her from the consequences of her actions and choices will likely ensure she never gets it and never becomes a "F"WW

DUDE,

""The above was a quote from you on 08/30/2005, and that was what got me thinking about my question.""

Oh man, you made me go back and find that quote. You then said in the next post that "you weren't a good guy and didn't mean to be defending her"

And Ms Lane was right there giving you heck back then. :twobyfour:

But then I went back further and read my first post. And dear Believer was the first responder! I posted in JFO and was told in the 3rd or 4th post to go over to general questions, where I seem to have dwelt ever since.

But, OUCH!! talk about some triggers!!!

Thanks a lot ol' buddy!!

So, anyway, do you go back over your old posts to reminisce, or did you remember it for all this time.

I think MEL hit it right on the button as far as instead of protecting her you are really enabling her.

IMHO

kirk

Thanks for the responses.

First off, I do know that my FWW has not "earned" the F as defined here. I just don't know what acronym to use since she is not an "active" WW.


I agree. Its just this seems to come and go with me.


I understand.


My FWW is repentent about her A. But she basically refuses to "buy" into any of the MB concepts.


I do understand your point here. I just don't think she will grow into a better person if I leave her.


Sorry.


I don't know if it's a good thing or bad, but I remember most everything. Especially posts that struck me as worth further consideration.

It's probably all a moot point anyway. I had one of my "blow-ups" yesterday and got what I expected. I tell her I won't go on like this and I want a divorce. She sits there silently for a while and then says she doesn't want to divorce, but won't quit her job. She says there's no point in her quiting her job, since our M won't make it anyway because she can't do what it takes to make me happy. More silence. Then says she is quitting her job today. I get the "sad" treatment all day.

I should be getting notified soon that she's decided she won't quit her job.

How much time has she invested in evaluating it and what specifically doesn't she buy into or what about it does she fight against?


It is very good to see that you are being firm with her that you will not sacrifice your happiness in order to make her happy.



Again, not knowing the answer to the above, the agreeing to the MB concepts and working them will make you happy. Does she recognize that?

Well you don't KNOW this rprynne, and your saying it smacks of total disrespect for her anyway - understandable, but still, why would you want to be with someone who can't be a better person? It's not like she is becoming one with you there yanno? You can't make her, HOW. EV. ER. you CAN enforce your own boundaries, and that just might allow her to do what she needs to do to become what you'd like to see her become...It might not, but it's not something you can control...You can only control YOU...You need to take care of YOU...



Well you are probably right that that is what will happen...Now, what you NEED to do is respond differently this time...Stop making THREATS and actually go through with ENFORCING YOUR BOUNDARY. When she notifies you that she has decided to not quit her job, thereby telling you that she isn't interested in investing in the marriage in the way that you need her to, then you draw the line [file divorce aka enforce your boundary]...NOT as punishment to her, but as protection of YOU...Start moving the process along and give her the freedom to choose whether or not she will stop violating your boundaries...If she isn't willing to stop doing that, then you shouldn't be willing to stay...Plain and simple...Right now, she doesn't respect you in part because she KNOWS that you won't enforce your boundaries...

As we've told you before rprynne, love and respect are inextricably bound for women...

Mrs. W

P.S. If you haven't read it, go out and get Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend

She has not invested a lot of time evaluating it. She does not say she does not buy into it, but based on her actions, I would say she doesn't buy into any of it. It's in my history, but basically we started MC with the Harley's and did this for 2-3 months and the whole time she was still in contact with OM.

If you ask what she fights against, I would say two main things. She does not buy into the whole idea that "love is more of a verb" or "feelings follow actions." Second, she believes she is incapable of meeting EN's.


No.


I agree that I don't know for certain, it's just what I think. It is not meant to be disrespectful. I say it because everytime we get to a sticking point, she just sort of throws a switch, and goes right back into a position of saying things aren't due to her choices, but just the way she is.


She can be a better person.


I'm trying Mrs. W. I just keep getting sucked back in. We have one of these discussions, she says she agrees with everything, makes some changes and promises to make all of them, and then a week goes by, then a month, then 2 months, and we end up right back here. I'm not doing it again.

I wasn't an ideal husband, and we made some mistakes, and I was prepared for this to take a long time and have ups and downs, but its just become tragically comical.

Right, but she is not choosing to, and I think that your inaction enables her not to have to...


"just keep getting sucked back in" or are CHOOSING to allow yourself to be sucked back in? I know you know the definition of insanity rprynne, now cut that out!


rprynne, you are far too nice and smart a man to keep living like this, I, for one, would love to see you take charge of your life, stand up and command the respect that you most certainly deserve...Respect yourself enough to do this! And who knows? She just might follow your lead...If not, you've still got those "two difficult cats"! (sorry, that just cracks me up every single time I read it! )

Mrs. W

Is it her beliefs, her habits, or your lack of boundaries that causes it to go back?

If you truly mean your not doing it again, I would expect if lack of boundaries was the issue it won't be anymore.

Clearly, I am choosing it. I have become Charlie Brown and my FWW is Lucy holding that dang football.


I don't know. It really just comes down to her job. I am happy with her when she is home. She meets my EN's. But the more she does that, the more it hurts when she leaves. And when she is gone, I try to compensate for that pain by asking more of her or saying quit your job. At that point, she decides she just can't make me happy (she decides she is not a good wife) and she quits.


I know it cracks you up, I just don't know any other way to describe them. Perhaps you can meet them one day.


I truly mean it. She's coming home this weekend and its going to be hard on me, but I'm not budging on this job anymore. I'll deal with the self-esteem issues over losing my wife to a job later.

This is the movie GROUNDHOG DAY!!!

Instead of me retyping the same thing again, can you just go back and read my old posts? We have covered this ground a hundred times already.

Next time Mr. W and I go out of town we will drop our now 28lb. ragdoll cat at your house and let him get your two in line!

Mrs. W

get a real pet, people!! :RollieEyes:

100? Don't bust my chops. I'm not stupid, I'm complicated


I would love that.


What? Like a dog. My response is this:

So you prefer an emotionally shallow animal? See, Mel, if you yell at a dog, his ears will go down and his tail will cover his genitals even if he's done nothing wrong. It's very easy to break a dog. But cats make you work for their affection. Cats don't sell out like dogs do.

So do RATS and other assorted VERMIN, you silly man!

Mel just can't handle a pet with a bigger streak of entitlement than her own!

Mrs. W

A CAT is a VARMINT, you silly people!! :RollieEyes:

my LAST CAT!

Don't listen to her rprynne! That is a doctored pic! I have proof that Mel's cat is alive, well and rockin' out! ~~~> MEL'S PRETTY KITTY!

Mrs. W

MrsW, I sent dat kitteh to BASEMENT KAT!

I was listening to a radio call in show on my way home yesterday, and the subject turned to the caller's wife's infidelity, and the host made an observation that I couldn't agree with more:

(paraphrasing)


"Women are master manipulators in interpersonal relationships. They are very good at emasculating their husbands, and then using that as an excuse to throw them away."

I thought it was very pertinent to this thread, and many other active threads here at MB.

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that men who care about their wives well-being have been emasulated by their wives?

I guess I don't have the same cynical view of women that you do.

I think the quote you referenced represents a small percentage of woman. If they are all the master manipulators that is described, then none are worth marrying, since they will only be lying in wait to eventually execute their grand plan of emasculating their mate. (even the ones who appear to have recovered their M). This is a bitter view.

Further, I think if a man maintains this view of women, he will by default, have a sub standard M, since he will naturally put up a barrier to intimacy in order to protect his masculinity.

I imagine you will say that all woman are not like this, but you seem to presume that once a woman has an A, and does not comply with all of the BH's demands, that is sufficient evidence to conclude that they are these "master manipulators". I only say that because you rarely seem to advise any other action other than leave them, regardless, of what a particular BH is struggling with.

Anyway, you should be a good one to answer my question, since you tend to remind each BH to throw away their wives. I'm not argueing with your logic, because clearly I have a different view of the world than you do.

I'm asking how do you instantly get to the point of just not caring about them.

rprynne,

You aren't going to like my responses, but you asked for them.

Once again you are purposefully dodging the real issues you are facing by trying to twist or exaggerate the meaning of what is posted to you to serve your own purposes of DOING NOTHING to improve your situation.

Never have I said or implied that ALL women are like this, but there are dozens of representative WW's (either directly posting or through their BH's discriptions of them) active here on MB at this time, and YOURS is one of them.

It is foolish to not even acknowledge that SOME women marry men with the intent to mold them into something they aren't. However, when they achieve their objective, the man they fell in love with doesn't exist any longer, and they throw them away, either directly by divorcing them, or worse, by disrespecting them by betraying them and then convincing their BH's that its all their fault.

ALL WW's lie, but its the "whipped" BH's that believe those lies and accept blame for their own betrayal. They then continue and compound their "whipped" behavior by being AFRAID to confront their WW's on their deception and establish and protect reasonable boundaries.

It is true, that I feel that D is the proper response to an A, and apparently so does Dr. Harley from my readings on this site, but that doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions to that rule. It just means that its up to the WW to show that they are indeed worthy of that exception.

It is NOT true, however, that I advise ALL BH's to D their WW's, and it is ridiculous to suggest that. That may be what it seems like to you, since you refuse to stand up for yourself to your WW. My purpose is to get "whipped" BH's to stand up for themselves in order to have a better future, OR they may as well D rather than remain in an manipulative relationship.

Also, that BS about ... "I'm asking how do you instantly get to the point of just not caring about them." ... just doesn't fly. How long has this been going on for you??? That's a pretty long "instant" if you ask me.

Why is it that you can get upset and take up for yourself to an anonymous internet poster, who has only suggested that you are "whipped", but say nothing to your WW, who has actually inflicted the "whipping" PLUS betrayed you in the process???

I've really done NOTHING to you, but SHE surely has!!!

I think you misjudge me. It's not whether I like them or not, I still consider them, just sometimes I don't agree with them.


I don't think you know my wife well enough to make that conclusion.


You've done this a couple of times when I ask you a direct question. I think you view my questions as adversarial, when they are not. You implied that I was saying what I have gone through was an instant, and I am fully aware of how long I have been going through this. But I was asking how you came to the conclusion that you do not care what happens to your wife and you did do that in an instant. At least that is what you have posted. I asked you how did you do that? If you feel you did not do that, then okay. If you don't want to answer, then okay.


I am not upset at all, at least not at you. I commented on your post because I thought it was an unfair characterization of women, and I do feel that if men look at their wives that way it will cause problems.

rprynne, I don't think what you are doing to your wife is CARING. I believe it is ENABLING, so I wouldn't use the word CARE. That is not accurate. You have trained MT to be a bad person who uses and abuses others. When you care for someone, you help them be the BEST they can be, not the WORST they can be.

Rprynne, I don't think I fully understand what you are trying to accomplish. Do you WANT to NOT care what happens to your WW? Because I don't think you ever don't care - regardless of how things turn out in the end. I'm in Plan D (well, Plan FU actually describes it better) but I couldn't honestly say I don't care what happens to WstbxH (unless I personally inflict it which is more fantasy than reality anyway). He was horrible in our M. He was horrible in the separation. He's horrible now. But I did devote 17 years of my life to him and he helped raise my DS so to say I didn't care what happens to him is either a lie or a dillusion.

I don't think it's about caring or not caring. The decision to attempt R or not is far more complex than that. It is about what kind of life you can expect for yourself and your children. It is about what you are willing to accept or not. You will never forget what happened and it can't be changed no matter what choices you make from here on out. It's in the past. What is it you want for the future and how do you get there? This is what you need to ask yourself. And be honest - the best answer for you isn't always the one you think you want.

I know from your other postings that at one time you were an SEC caliber lineman ... so I made the assumption that your W was likely originally attracted to a big, strong manly type of guy. Somewhere between then and now, you have become very indecisive and unwilling to act on what you KNOW you need to do.

You're obviously an intelligent guy, so you have to see the futility in doing the same things over and over, with no meaningful improvement.

So, you're right ... I don't know your W, but the fact that you remain in limbo 3 years out, taken in context with the above is a pretty good clue to my original assumption and seems to fit the premise of the radio host's observations.


Maybe I misunderstood your post, or you have me confused with someone else ... I'm still M'd and well into R with FogFree. I have never indicated that I didn't care what happened to her, as she has NEVER NOT (how about those double negatives) been a part of my life since we were M'd. She made a REALLY bad choice, but upon discovery, she has followed that one up with a lot of very GOOD choices.

However, I did give her an ultimatum immediately upon discovery (fortunately she made the right choice for me), and if she would have made the wrong choice or even asked for time to clear her head, then she knows that I was serious about having her leave our marital home RIGHT THEN. It would have hurt like he11, but I simply have too much pride to knowingly SHARE my W with another man.

I could understand a major life screw-up, as I've made a few myself over the years, but I can't understand allowing the one I love the most to continue to KNOWINGLY inflict pain and disrespect on me. THAT is the major difference as I see it.

rprynne,

Sometimes I get the feeling that you and I just don't communicate that well. It just seems like I type one thing, but you read another and/or vice versa, which isn't hard to do in an impersonal type of communication like an internet message board.

I did take your post as adversarial and replied based on that belief. If that was not your intent, then I apologize for my tone, but I still believe in the overall content of what I posted.

You simply have to do something to get yourself out of this limbo, and I think I read in an earlier post where you intend to give your W an ultimatum about her employment this weekend when she comes home. I hope you find the courage to state that boundary and then enforce it, if necessary.

Somewhere inside of you still beats the heart of a WILDCAT ... I hope you reconnect with it.

Okay. It is not my intent to enable, but I will try to consider that some more.


Its not so much what I am trying to accomplish. When I first posted the question what I was trying to convey was that I am quite certain that nothing is going to get better until I just decide to leave my FWW and file for divorce. I can not completely describe it, but I do not fear her reaction to this, nor am I worried about my future. What tends to hold me back is that I am certain that my FWW will agree to the divorce and then go on with things and I think she will ultimately be unhappy. And when I consider that, I think that she is making a big, big mistake. Right or wrong, I end up feeling responsible to try and stop her from making that mistake. So I end up compromising. So I was asking other people how they deal with that.

I imagine that every BH that has to give their WW an ultimatum feels that if she were to decide to leave, is making a big mistake. I feel the same way. If this were just a friend or something, I would say I think that's a mistake, and then let it go. But, since its my wife, who I've been with for 20 years, I feel compelled to keep trying so as to keep her from making that mistake.


Fair enough. All I can say about the 3 years is that there were other factors that I felt warranted the time.


This is what I am asking about. When you gave her the ultimatum, I assume you considered the fact that she might leave. If she had, wouldn't it have driven you crazy that she was making such a big mistake. Wouldn't you have felt an urge to keep her from doing that?

I'm not saying this applies to you, but some seem to be "energized" by the fact that the WS is making a big mistake. I find it tragic and seem to want to try and correct it.


I agree. It is very hard to pick up tone on a message board.


I understand and I appreciate that. I genuinely post here mostly to get others opinions and share my own, I apologize if I was (or came across as) overly critical.


I'm going to enforce it. I told her I was filing for D. Its just going to be weird when she is here. We have talked several times since I told her this and she doesn't bring it up. Thanks for the support and encouragement.

Honestly, NO I wouldn't have. I have the advantage or disadvantage, however you choose to view it, of already surviving a divorce. I know that once I cross that line that I have the ability to shut off those feelings.

You see, SHE would have been the one to make that choice, and as such, I can walk away without those feelings you describe.

Now I'm not completely hard hearted ... I know it would have hurt like he11 the first time I saw her with someone else, etc., but urges to keep her from feeling the consequences of her damn poor choices ... NO WAY!!!

I didn't realize that you'd already broken the news to her ... Good for YOU!!!

Seems that either she's the one in denial now ... OR ... she is trying to gauge whether you will follow through.

Just STAND TALL and let her know that you still LOVE her, but you just can't stand her INDIFFERENCE any longer.

But this is where your thinking seems to be a bit faulty, at least to me.

Your wife needs to do just this. She needs to feel the unhappiness of her choices. She needs to realize that she is ultimately in control of her own happiness, not you.

There is a path that one must walk to get to the place of this realization.

You are not the gatekeeper to her happiness, she is. And you both need to realize this, and sooner or later you both will.

There are also different avenues to the gate.

We used to have a saying something like "get out of God's way". It holds a lot of truth.

The most important thing for you to decide, Rprynne, is what is it you are willing to settle for. What are your values, as they pertain to your marriage and ultimately your life.

You might call it protecting her from her own deestruction, or that you fear her unhappiness and there is truth to this, but it is not really helpful to her. I know that I would have a hard time knowing that someone I loved was unhappy, but I have faith and belief in each and every human being that they have the same ability I have in finding happiness. Don't sell her short. She is not that incompetent.

I just saw this. Prepare yourself for a bumpy ride, and listen to MyRev.

(((((Rprynne)))))

Mr. W and I will keep you in our prayers...

((((((((((Rprynne))))))))))

We are here if you need us...

Mrs. W

Okay. Thanks for the insight. I envy you on this.


I think it is a little of both.


I understand.

Its sort of comical, but I knew it was going to get to this point after the first meeting with the MC. He's a good MC, and he gets most of the stuff about A's and EN's etc. But he gave an example of a couple he counseled that had decided to live apart for the sake of their careers, but with good communication, making up for the time apart in other ways, etc., that it worked for them. Bear in mind, both the husband and the wife made about around twenty million in salary each year and had their own private jet, so it made things a tad easier to cope with the time apart. Anyway, all my FWW seemed to hear was here's a happily married couple who don't work in the same place.


It probably is.

Thanks for the hugs Weaves and Mrs. W. Not going to be much going on anyway, since she got stuck in the hurricane.

Hey rprynne. I just caught up with this thread. I'm sorry to hear that your long fought battle has come to this.

But I think you are making the right decision.

I wish you the best, and thank you for all your help and comments on my own situation.

Thanks for the support Tyk.

My (F)WW made it back from the damage of Hurricane Ike. She has been back for a few days and we went out last night. She went to the MC by herself yesterday. (I've told her I don't really see much point in me going anymore). She still hadn't mentioned anything about what I told her last week. So eventually she brings up some R talk over dinner.

I reiterated that I was still moving forward with getting a divorce and added I'm not ####### around on this. She asked if I would go with her to talk to the MC about this. Told her no. She asked if I would go talk to the MC by myself about this. Told her no.

She said she wanted to talk more about it tonight.

Anyway, I imagine there is a 50/50 chance she is going to ask if I would be willing to quit my job and move to where she is. I don't really think I can do that.

I was just curious to hear what other people would do in that situation.

rprynne,

FogFree and I are currently re-visiting some of our work related issues after a recent business trip of hers ... actually she's in the air flying home as I type ... and my best guess is that our issues relative to her travel will not ease until she agrees to find another job that doesn't require this level of overnight travel ... preferably NONE AT ALL. Although, right now, this is very much a "moving target" and I am unsure of its resolution.

Therefore, from my perspective, I doubt you will find any peace until she commits to finding other employment or you seperate yourself from the source of your anxiety through divorce.

rprynne,

Wait a minute...hold the phone...Is MT still traveling to where OM lives??? Please tell me nooooooooooo rprynne...If I recall correctly OM is in Texas, yes? Personally I would have a HUGE problem with that rprynne...Does she have family in Texas that can verify her whereabouts to you at ALL times? What extraordinary precautions, if any, is she taking? From here I am seeing the same situation as before...MT working in Texas...OM in Texas...Rprynne at home...

Mrs. W

MyRev - Thanks for the input.

My (F)WW's job doesn't involve any travel, its just the job location is in another state. If I moved to where she is working, it would be allow the most time together since prior to years before d-day. Her job before this one "required" a lot of travel.

Not sure if it's clear, but my (F)WW's A started when she was doing her old job. In that job she traveled a lot. OM did not work with her, but his company was doing work with my (F)WW's company and that's how they met. His company was in Houston. She broke it off with him, then a month later quit her job. She was not working for 3 months. During that time, she resumed things with OM. Then she took a job with a company in Houston. OM does not work for this company, but lives in Houston. Its not entirely clear whether she took the job because OM was there or not. She swears its not the case, I remain skeptical.

For a considerable amount of time, she has not asked for me to quit my job and move to Houston. She claims its because she knows I like my job and wouldn't want me to do that. Personally, I believe it has more to do with the fact that when she went there she told everybody she works with that she is divorced and introduced OM to some of her co-workers as her boyfriend. So, me moving there would make it hard to get the story straight. As I would insist on being well known by her co-workers.

So, now that I am making it clear to her that its unacceptable to me for us to have jobs so far apart, I suspect she will attempt to overcome that problem and ask me to move to Houston. Frankly, I'm not to keen on the idea, because pardon my french, but it feels like I'd be "putting my #### on the anvil" again, so to speak.

But I'm just wondering if some of the folks here would view it a different way. i.e. say "well you should give it a shot."

I hope you and FogFree work it out. All I can say is that job's aren't worth sacrificing a M over. Wish I could convince a few people of that

Mrs. W - Nope you have it right.

She "quit" her job in January. Then after a few months she later told me that she really didn't quit, that she took a leave of absence. In May, she started going back to work 3-4 days a week flying back and forth.

I did not like the idea, but I figured I would see if the MC, which we continued doing, and us trying to POJA a solution to the problem would work.

I can't really convey it, but contact is not really a concern. Since she went back, the difference has been night and day. I have her cell phone, e-mail access, etc. She answers each call, etc. She really has been trying to work on things.

But this job is a fundamental problem. I gave her some time to come to the table about it, but it just became apparent that she wasn't ever going to get moving on that.

Mrs W. - Also, I keep trying to tell people that the problem is not just the A. Nobody here ever buys this, and sometimes I think that makes it difficult when people give advice. We had the exact same problem with her last job.

rprynne,

I was aware of your situation ... my comments were to try to make the connection that both of our W's are often away from us, and with their respective histories, this much time apart makes R much more difficult.

We both have our own different specific issues, but our commonality comes from the fact that we need our W's HOME, with US, more often.

With our circumstances as BH/WW, I wouldn't consider it fair to give up my job to accomodate my W's career, and I don't think you should either. IMHO, its up to our W's to make us feel secure in our M's ... and repeating behaviors that contributed to their A's (i.e. seperate travel or living arrangements) doesn't fit into that picture for me.

Agreed. I'll be interested to hear how you and FogFree resolve this.

No, I can see this...MT treats work like an OM really...At the weekend conference, Dr. Harley is adamant that your career is to serve your marriage and family and NOT the other way around...He has even advised doctors to change careers because of this...To me this must be your hill to die on rprynne...Careers are a POJA issue and I am wondering if MT has any intention of ever following the POJA...If not, I do not see your marriage surviving...

Mrs. W

Yes Mrs. W, that is exactly it.


No, I don't really think it is something she will POJA. At least not in "good faith."