I dont get it?? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I have read the Harley principles and believe in the MB tactics that I am learning, but I need some help in understanding something here...I am a WS that is unGodly sorry for all the pain, hurt, anger, fear and everything else that has been caused by my actions. But something really bothers me and hopefully some of you can straighten me out?!It seems to me that when we talk about LB, Plan A, Plan B, Agreements of Radical Honesty, HN/HN that the ones that are feeling sorry and guilty for their behaviors right now are the BS?? I read constantly about WS that are taking advantage of the situations, making the BS feel bad because they want to stick up for themselves, try to hold the WS accountable...and I see constantly don't do anything to upset them or that is an LB. I realize some WS are still in the fog, but how much crap after D-day do the BS have to handle? I want to slap some of these WS silly at the opportunity they have to mend some fences and it seems to me, they just take advantage of the BS, over and over again. Am I wrong or is this what is happening? I understand about coming from a loving place in your heart, but some of you have been getting slapped in the face consistently and I guess I just dont understand. When is enough enough?I am not placing myself above anyone else here, just trying to understand. I know what my infidelity did to my partner and I just hate what it is doing to some of my friends here. Thanks for your input!!*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*Trueheart

trueheartWhen is enough, enough? I think it is different for each individual. Some of us can put up with much more than others.My H told me for approx 2 years that he didn't love me. He should never have married me. I always ruined his fun. blah, blah, blah.On the other hand, I loved him, we had, had a basically good marriage. I didn't always ruin his fun. I was just not very tolerant.I really didn't care what he wanted. I wanted my marriage to continue. I took the HIGH ROAD and didn't buy into all of his negative and hateful comments. I didn't retaliate. It would only cause severe arguements. I would just tell him that I was sorry he felt that way. He had his feelings (for the moment) and I had mine. Feelings change all of the time.We have now reconciled after 18 months of seperation that incluuded his affair. Our marriage is so much stronger now. We both learned so much. Me especially, thanks to MB.I'm glad I didn't listen to him. I always felt that he would be back and that's why enough wasn't enough. PS: My H thanked me for the way I dealt with the situation and treated him throughout this crisis.

trueheart,Dr. Harley touches on this in the book Surviving An Affair. He says that usually the WS feels that they were driven to their affair by a spouse who neglected their emotional needs. In MB terms, their love banks are so depleted before the affair that they feel no love for their spouse. So they do not necessarily feel lucky that the BS is giving them another chance. I guess they feel that they are giving the BS another chance. I recall that Harley says that many WS never apologize for their affair, as they feel justified. Yet it is generally the case that the BS’s needs have not been met for a long time either. So when is enough enough? When the BS can no longer take the emotional pain. I believe in a short plan A to minimize the damage to the BS. But each person has to make that decision for himself/herselfI think that one thing that is different with you, STL and some others is that the love was still there. So it was easier to acknowledge the BS’s pain. Does this make sense?Z [This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 09, 2001).]

Yes it is true that the BS bears the initial brunt of the recovery and setting the example. Plan A should be short lived if it is carried out correctly by the BS & Ws. When this does not happen then plan B shoudl be executed. So the BS carries the initial load, rightly the WS should be carrying the follow-up. BS should not apologize too much that can make the WS keep up their wayward course. Making the Ws too complacent. Like an older child setting the example for his younger siblings. However, in time the younger ones have to carry their own load. Same principle. L.

I don't think that Harley in any way is saying that the BS is feeling guilty or responsible, or is. I fact the BS is NOT responsible, not to blame for the horrendously bad decisions of the WS. Plan A looks very much like that to the WS probably, and feels very much like that to the BS, (hence why so many have trouble doing it), and yes, I think many people do take it to unhealthy levels of just plain old co-dependence, BUT, the plan is there as one way to try to stop the affair, not as a way of life, and it has worked to this end in many cases.Ideally, Plan A needs to develop further down the road into the 4 steps to a healty marriage, and recovery, which is a two way street, this is just not possible until no contact has been established though, and Plan A is just a means to this end. If you look at the goals in site, and realize the BS's that are doing this are going against every natural instinct you will see it is really a very brave act of pure love to even try it temporarily. But, in the end, you are right, the WS needs to come out of it, and come back to the marriage, it cannot go on forever as a one way street while the BS gets used and hurt and betrayed.

Thanks for the replies...That leads to my next question...it would seem to me that a short Plan A is best as well, but if the WS doesnt own up to their end of deal, why do so many BS continue to be treated this way? Why do they give chance after chance? I guess I am feeling a bit strange....it hit me right after D-day that I needed to do all I could to get on the right track. Did I not feel the Emotional Attachment that some WS do? I knew right away where my heart belonged and felt very fortunate that I was even given a chance. Am I just weird?...LOL.Trueheart

No, not weird...just able to 'see' and 'own' your own stuff faster...I read a lot of BS's posts who don't account for their own responsibility in the marriage that led to the 'environment' that led to the affair (from SAA). I knew my part in what happened right away....owned it...took responsibility for it and started on my changes...I think how long you 'plan A' might have something to do with that...how long does it take BS to become strong, make their changes, own their stuff, and come to the decision that WS is NOT pulling their weight...once BS gets to that point...where love is in danger, where BS needs 'protection,' Plan B is not far behind...Just today I was thinking...I might not be the greatest catch in the sea, but my H is nuts to give me up...there are a lot of things about me someone else would appreciate...I know that I am close to saying..."Fine, you don't want me, you don't want to be married...done...Plan B..." S*** or get off the pot time, ya know?Just my opinion!Cali

I totally agree with what everyone is saying. I wonder how in the world some people can "hang on" for 2-3 years - or even 6 months. I don't think I can. But it's been 8 weeks for me - I never would've thought I could hang on THAT long! The truth is, we don't know what we can handle - or are WILLING to tolerate until we are put in a situation. I certainly wouldn't allow my H to have a second A and hang around for it! BUT, I NEVER thought I would hang around after one A either. True, sometimes, I think we BS's condition ourselves to tolerate more and more - and perhaps more than we should. But I know I am growing myself in the process - learning about myself, which I can apply to all areas of my life. At some point, I will know when it's not beneficial to me - or worth it - to hang on. I am willing to wait for my prodigal H to wake up and make changes and commitments, but not forever.Just wondering... You've probably told your story on other threads... how did you come "out of the fog"? Did your BS wait for you? Did they Plan A you? What if they had given up on you? Maybe your BS was lucky - it didn't take long for you to see the light. We're not all that lucky... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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------------------ Faith1

Oh, I wish the Ws's would learn at a faster pace. It is so hard when the WS is a 'slow learner'. In my case, my patience as the BS has worn thin. We are not even talking about the love bank, just the patience part. Not much left that's for sure. Does the WS need to do this? Some think so and seem like they enjoy it. Mine took me to that level even though I asked him not to. Maybe it was like waving a red flag in front of a slow bull. push push push until blamm! Now I am wondering if it is still worth it. TH, you are not weird if you are facing reality. I am happy for you. I wish my H was progressing the same. L.

It seems to me that for some reason BS's mostly tend to blame themselves for their WS's A? Sure, it takes two healthy givers to keep the marriage thriving, but when one chooses to seek to have their needs met outside of the marriage, to me, it really boils down to individual character.Why do BS's give WS's chance after chance to really prove their bad behavior? I think it's like Faith1 said, one really doesn't know HOW one will react until the situation arises, and this applies to life's circumstances, in general... Maybe BS's go into shock, not to mention experience a great loss of self-worth, depression, fear, confusion--and many other negative emotions that tend to paralyze us sending logic right out the door.When we look at infidelity logically, the solutions seem easy, but emotionally it is not. Like for example, we might say we would never put up with such and such behavior, but when you actually come face to face with it, it becomes a different story. After all the pain subsides, then anger sets in so it is very extremely important to remain close to God in all of life's battles, regardless. Love (God's love in us) never fails, and we can love with the door closed!People have all sorts of reasons, but in the end God gets the glory when we can look back and talk about it with a smile noticing all the pain is gone. How about Patient1's testimony! WHAT AN INCREDIBLE STORY OF GOD'S GOODNESS AND MERCY! Way to go, God!

True heart i wanted to ask the same questions of the bs in here that you have thank you for doing it in a better way than i could have. My H had an A that lasted 5 weeks in duration, NO EMOTIONAL committment, ( so it is technically not an affair accorded to the Harley definition of affair), For me it was that that saved us. The fact is that my H DID not give his HEART and his SECRET places to another. Funny , i could deal with the betrayl of his body easier than his mind!! I am inclined to say that i would not have tried to save our marriage for years on end,and i thank GOD i did not have to. He told me of what happened and completly re committed to us and it has been a wonderful time of growth for us. I have nothing but respect for those of you that are going into YEARS of recovery, with no real signs of hope, but yet still maintaining hope within your self. You are made of stronger stuff than most. I feel blessed that i did get out of this with very few scars, and a very remorseful H, and a OW who is not even in the same country to cause trouble if she wanted. HOw do you all cope with the OP INTRUDING in your lives like she has a right?? Iknw that for some of t you the OP is smack dab in the middle of your life and how doyou cope?? NOw i am rambling on, I jeed to get on with my day , RAIN what to do with 3 kids LOL Maine ------------------ IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

Well, call me old fashioned. I made a promise. I believe I have a deep understanding of what my wife is coping with. Although she denies it now, someday she might need me. I'm not staring out the window waiting, I'm continuing my life as a father. I'm content knowing I'm doing the right thing.WAT

Morning everyone...Thanks so much for the replies...I continue to be amazed at the strength of the BS here. I, too, have seen some that are in recovery for 1-2 years and still fighting. You have my utmost respect, especially those that have been slapped in the face over and over and continue to believe, continue to try, continue to love and hang in there. I am amazed at how long it takes for some WS to come out of the FOG. I am also amazed at how many WS take no responsibility for the A and blame their weakness on the BS and they were driven to it. Yes, we all share in the breakdown of communication and needs not being met, but to absolve one's self of all responsibility and blame at the expense of the one we love is nuts! Faith...I came out of the fog when I was confronted with the facts. W had monitored my email and saw a card that was sent to me. When I heard and saw the pain, fear, anger, and hurt that I caused this wonderful woman, my little rosy glasses were shattered!! It took me all of five minutes to realize the depths of what I had done to her and to us. My A never reached PA level, but to her, (and her perception is what matters, right?), it was as if I had. I realized what she means to me and the fragile nature of love. I realized how easily a foundation can be shaken and damaged. I realized how much I did not want to live without her in my life and set out to right the wrongs. I am extremely lucky and grateful that she saw fit to give me that chance. From what I have seen, the fog is thicker and burns off much slower for some, but I cant help but wonder if some WS use the nature of the *fog* as a reason to continue being a WS, with the guise of *I am not sure what I want* or *I don't know what to do*. I am sure some are legit, but I get the feeling that some string the BS along, so that the BS will make final decisions to split and, again, absolve themselves of the responsibility for the ultimate failure of the M. I can't help but feel they feel justified in continuing the A, so that they can *see* what they want. Personally, for me, I knew when I saw the tears, exactly how much she loved me and what I meant to her. There was really was no tough decision on my part. I guess I am one of the lucky ones...my toughest battle was not inside me, but in getting her to believe I deserved another chance. She gave it to me, and I am making the most of it.Patient...Congrats!! Yours is truly an inspiration to those still fighting!!Cali...my continued support and huggggggz to you in your continuing efforts. You are truly an amazing study in *stickativity*, and you are quite a catch, I think. Hopefully, H will realize this again your recovery can begin anew.WAT and Orchid...my continued support for your efforts!!Maine...it was a question that I have pondered alot since reading more and more and seeing what the BS go through in recovery...and more than one D-day!! I am amazed that so many can continue to deal with more pain.Thanks again...yall have a great day!!*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*Trueheart

Actually I wonder about some of the BS myself, just as a person (not in my ws role), it is amazing to me how far some will go, and I wonder if it is love or insecurity, self-esteem issues etc. and though some "make" it, ultimately many are left drained and abandoned anyways. Of course each has to decide for themselves, and asess the viability of a recovery, and whether the investment is worth it. But in general, figuring average human beings, I would think a well executed plan a of anything up to 6 months or so should be adequate, then a move to plan b if no real success. What I like about the harley stuff is it is not about reasons, or blame, or fairness, it is very ultilitarian. If you want to save your marriage (and save it so it works in the future) this is what you do. It may not work, but it will reveal whether the marriage is worthwhile, and at same time will improve the skills of the bs (and ws for that matter if they participate), a truly win win solution.As for my ws attitude, well I have spilled it freely all over the place here to be looked at if one is interested. My fundamental issue is whether our marriage should exist. Plan a was made for ws like myself. I am indeed unrepentant, I don't think my wife loves me (as opposed to needs me, and values my taking care of her), never have, and don't feel in love either. This is perhaps the most difficult of "normal" affairs to resolve, and takes longer (if ever). I can see where "in-love" marriages that got a little off track (vis a vis EN deprivation) get resolved quicker. Yes I am sorry (and feel guilty) about my wifes pain, but when I look at the pain we will both experience (albeit in smaller doses), living together another 30-40 years of passionateless marriage, then the pain cannot be the reason to reconcille....unless a bs wants to a ws to stay out of pity.It is hard listening to many of you castigate me, I really don't know what to do, just that I am determined not to go back to what I had. Some of you want that (it was good and we just got lost), and that is ok, but it does not apply to me. My w and I are literaly going to have to choose each other again, and if that is to happen I (my wife can decide for herself re me) have to see something different than I have seen heretofore, hence the importance of the plan a stuff. Is it fair? I guess every circumstance is different, maybe I am not worthy of her, and she will leave me, I don't know. I just know I am doing my honest best to find the correct path. If I am truly just a screwed up ws in a beamed down from the mothership to a fogbank, then I guess I can only hope she goes the distance, but it doesn't feel like that. I think my concerns are legitimate, and falling in love with ow was no different than had I been dating my wife and discovered another person who I fit better. But I don't know, so I talk and talk and talk, and analyze, analyze, analyze, it is all I know how to do. And I have studied the MB stuff, and slowly trying to apply it, but it is much harder to be motivated when there is so much LB going on......so there we are, back to the benefits of the plan a. For some of the ws, the failure to execute a good plan a just proves we were right, the marriage does not work well. So asking us to "fix" things, and do the stuff too just cause it is right doesn't work, many of us think that is what we have been doing all along, carrying the emotional responsibility for the marriage, and we don't want to do it anymore.

To sad_n_loney--Posted by you above: "Falling in love with OW was no different than had I been dating my wife and discovered another person who I fit better."Wow! What a classic. I haven't posted in a while b/c recovery is going great, but I just had to respond. Do you listen to yourself? You can't think of ANYTHING that differentiates the two situations? How about that with your W now, YOU PROMISED TO BE WITH HER FOREVER--COME BETTER OR WORSE. You are not "dating" your wife now dude, your married to her. Wake up from your mental slumber. Sorry, just had to shoot a lightning bolt at that one. Take it or leave it sad_n_loney.JB

trueheart,I had to check your profile to see if you were my H. As far as I know he doesn't come here. He knows about it and knows my user name. You seem to have the same thoughts as he does, though. My H didn't like that I was trying to find out what I might have done wrong to aid in his straying (while I was reading SAA). He said that there was nothing wrong, he just messed up big time. He said that he never had any withdrawal from OW and that he did not have some great emotional attachment to her.I just wanted to say hi since you sound so much like my hubbie. I haven't endured what so many of these people have. There are some amazing people here. My H's EA was devastating to me, but if he had been in the Fog and all of that, I hope that I would have been as strong as many of the these BS's.Take care, Window

My hat is off to you TH. Wouldn't it be great if all WS were like you.

As a BS, I have to say that the reason I want to work so hard on saving my marriage is that I really thought things were OK in my relationship, i.e. we were getting along OK until I learned about the A. I want to work on making things OK again. Actually I want to make things great again. I realize that I got lazy and took things for granted. The A was a wake-up call. Things are getting better slowly.MOST WS are not as repentive as you are. Your spouse is lucky!BUT I will say that I will not go through this again. If things work out, and I think they will, I will not give him a second chance. I don't think it will come to this since I am much more educated in meeting his needs. I feel like a different person now.R3

Johnny, I am a pretty basic guy, and I call em as I see em, there is nothing in making a vow that changes us psychologically, and it was emotions I was addressing, not cognitive choice. The Harley's make it clear, and they are right, under the right circumstances anyone can have an affair. That is becuase we are put together as human beings to respond to other human beings, and our marital status is irrelevant, it is not part of our genetics. Many confuse actions taken with emotions felt, they are not the same. Perhaps that clarifys the point of my post, this thread seemed to be about feelings. Now if we start debating cognitive actions, we can talk about vows (and givers and takers), and how they are not possible to make as an absolute. There is no one here who if pushed hard enuf would not forsake their vows (well maybe a few diehards who would die first, but then that would quality as mentally ill). So it just boils down to the usual, where the line in the sand is drawn, and those on your side are ok, and those who are not, are defective in some way. I have said many times and do so again, that an affair occurs is of little consequence, it is the reason why and what to do about it that counts. There is no difference between acting on an affair, or wanting to and not doing so by will power. The marital problems (and dysfunctions) remain the same. Far better for an affair to occur and marriage get restored, than for 2 moral folks to resist others, and dutifully (and dysfunctionally) do nothing in their marriage, cause they were focused on being moral IMO. Thx for your observation, it was taken in the helpful spirit it was given.I am curious though, why do you think a vow means anything? You can't think yourself into, or out of love, so a vow is nothing more than a statement of your intent at the time made. There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? It would seem much more prudent to focus on the principles of marriage (and most importantly emotional honesty) than to sit back and figure I was given a vow, I am fixed (partner wise) for life. Let me ask you something, if your wife made it clear she did not love you, did not want to be married to you, but would not leave due to the vow, would you want the marriage to continue? That is why vows mean nothing, they cannot gaurantee feelings, and it is the feelings that we want, and that keep us married, or working on marriage.

it was emotions I was addressing, not cognitive choice. The Harley's make it clear, and they are right, under the right circumstances anyone can have an affair. That is becuase we are put together as human beings to respond to other human beings, and our marital status is irrelevant Well, Hallelujah, I'm finally understanding where S_N_L is coming from! He's talking about EMOTIONS. (I THINK) He's saying that IF you need to feel "loved" and you don't feel it in your marriage, you stray! And he did. And now he still feels "out of love with his W" and doesn't know why everyone is trying to make him feel bad about it.Am I getting close, S_N_L? we can talk about vows (and givers and takers), and how they are not possible to make as an absolute. There is no one here who if pushed hard enuf would not forsake their vows The vows are not important, because *all* they represent is how we felt *at the time* we made them. In other words, you were a "giver" when you said "Forsaking all others" on your wedding day. You were also a "Taker" because you wanted to "TAKE" your spouse's love for yourself, to make you feel good and meet YOUR needs. How'm'I doing? The marital problems (and dysfunctions) remain the same. Far better for an affair to occur and marriage get restored I think this said TO ME that it might be better to have a M shaken TO ITS CORE than remain in a critical stage of terminal COMA, unfeeling and unfulfilling to both. With this in mind, then both parties might be motivated to change things for the better.I am curious though, why do you think a vow means anything? You can't think yourself into, or out of love, so a vow is nothing more than a statement of your intent at the time made. Here it is! Addressed above.How am I doing, S_N_L?? Am I understanding you where you are? There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? It would seem much more prudent to focus on the principles of marriage (and most importantly emotional honesty) than to sit back and figure I was given a vow, I am fixed (partner wise) for life. ... if your wife made it clear she did not love you, did not want to be married to you, but would not leave due to the vow, would you want the marriage to continue? That is why vows mean nothing, they cannot gaurantee feelings, and it is the feelings that we want, and that keep us married, or working on marriage.I feel sorry for you if this is truly the state you are in. If you and your BS cannot get to the point where you are working to restore LOVE into your M, but are only STANDING on and PRESSURING the other to remain in the M because "you took vows you would" - then by all means, I AGREE with you! You ought not to stay! The feelings are there, because YOU BOTH WORK TO KEEP THEM THERE FOR THE OTHER. Sorry to seem to be shouting, but I'm trying to show emphasis.I guess this was what would be called an "AHA!" moment for me, cause this is where my H is right now. He believed whole-heartedly that I DID NOT work at our M, that I was just trusting that since we had "taken vows" we should just always be together, no matter how miserable either (or both) of us was or was making the other. I have since learned otherwise. Two people must work together to make a M a happy one for both. It CAN be brought back together by one, as taught on this forum, BUT it cannot stay together by only one. Both have to commit to making it healthy again (maybe more healthy than it has ever been).I had to read hard and long to NOT believe that S_N_L was NOT MY H!!! If Thinker had not surfaced, I would've still believed he was my H. He is in exactly the same place. I see that in S_N_L's words. I hope I don't sound like "Thinker" when my H comes here and posts. I think she needs to work a little more on the principles taught. Sorry, Thinker, but I think you AND S_N_L are continuing to "push each other's buttons" and I don't see changes in your methods of relating to each other. WIthout that, your H doesn't see a reason to stay, and quite frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.Flame away, folks. I'm learning too. Lupo

There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? S_N_L, one more point (then I'll go hide under my bed!) - there IS a mechanism to insure a human being will "always feel that way..." and it is found in the MB principles!!! It's as simple as that!! I believe that if they are strictly adhered to, the "feeling" of being in love with your spouse, or ANYONE else, will be there! FOREVER!! I hope you and Thinker will try to apply them, and get OUT of your old behavior patterns of relating to each other. You are still hurting each other. And it's not healthy, nor is it conducive to a happy M. My .02 (or .04?) Lupo

By now Lupo you must have realized I am one of those who enjoys (and values) the philosophic side of life. Despite many comments (and a few downright accusations), I am not here for justification, I don't need any, I do what I want. But I do seek to understand why I do the things I do, hence my interest sometimes seeming off the wall, it's all important, human beings are fairly complex. And I do want what "I want" to be um........ mentally healthy I suppose, make sense in other words....it was emotions I was addressing, not cognitive choice. The Harley's make it clear, and they are right, under the right circumstances anyone can have an affair. That is becuase we are put together as human beings to respond to other human beings, and our marital status is irrelevant Lupo...Well, Hallelujah, I'm finally understanding where S_N_L is coming from! He's talking about EMOTIONS. (I THINK) He's saying that IF you need to feel "loved" and you don't feel it in your marriage, you stray! And he did. And now he still feels "out of love with his W" and doesn't know why everyone is trying to make him feel bad about it. Am I getting close, S_N_L? snl....pretty close.we can talk about vows (and givers and takers), and how they are not possible to make as an absolute. There is no one here who if pushed hard enuf would not forsake their vows lupo...The vows are not important, because *all* they represent is how we felt *at the time* we made them. In other words, you were a "giver" when you said "Forsaking all others" on your wedding day. You were also a "Taker" because you wanted to "TAKE" your spouse's love for yourself, to make you feel good and meet YOUR needs.How'm'I doing?snl...this wasn't mine, just took out of the g/t book. If I got it right vows are all giver, the taker is left at home, or would never allow such a vow to be made....but he will come out later, and goodbye vow....The marital problems (and dysfunctions) remain the same. Far better for an affair to occur and marriage get restored lupo...I think this said TO ME that it might be better to have a M shaken TO ITS CORE than remain in a critical stage of terminal COMA, unfeeling and unfulfilling to both. With this in mind, then both parties might be motivated to change things for the better.snl...yes.... and no, having in mind won't motivate anyone to do anything...humans respond poorly to 'warnings", but much better to direct consequences. How am I doing, S_N_L?? Am I understanding you where you are? snl...getting there, my viewpoint is pragmatic, cause and effect. But I discuss it in philosophic terms sometimes, it is confusing, but there has to be an underlying truth to cause and effect and that not only interests me, I need it in part in order to function. I don't just want to understand stuff, I need too, I cannot function right if I don't know where I am at. That is why my marriage to terry has been so damaging, I never knew where I was with her, and it is part of why I want so desperately to get away.There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? It would seem much more prudent to focus on the principles of marriage (and most importantly emotional honesty) than to sit back and figure I was given a vow, I am fixed (partner wise) for life. ... if your wife made it clear she did not love you, did not want to be married to you, but would not leave due to the vow, would you want the marriage to continue? That is why vows mean nothing, they cannot gaurantee feelings, and it is the feelings that we want, and that keep us married, or working on marriage.Lupo...I feel sorry for you if this is truly the state you are in. snl...are you being emotionally honest, do you truly feel sorry for me?lupo...If you and your BS cannot get to the point where you are working to restore LOVE into your M, but are only STANDING on and PRESSURING the other to remain in the M because "you took vows you would" - then by all means, I AGREE with you! You ought not to stay! The feelings are there, because YOU BOTH WORK TO KEEP THEM THERE FOR THE OTHER.snl...I agree, and I have found my wifes response confusing, somedays it is leave, other days it is stay, and often is it is vows you promised me. She does not fully comprehend what this does to me.lupo...I guess this was what would be called an "AHA!" moment for me, cause this is where my H is right now. He believed whole-heartedly that I DID NOT work at our M, that I was just trusting that since we had "taken vows" we should just always be together, no matter how miserable either (or both) of us was or was making the other. I have since learned otherwise. Two people must work together to make a M a happy one for both. It CAN be brought back together by one, as taught on this forum, BUT it cannot stay together by only one. Both have to commit to making it healthy again (maybe more healthy than it has ever been).snl...yep, but I would add, each must freely choose each other, and not just with the mind, there must be something special in the heart too, and that is the scarey painful part. It must be both, will not work just cause one wants it so bad.I had to read hard and long to NOT believe that S_N_L was NOT MY H!!! If Thinker had not surfaced, I would've still believed he was my H. He is in exactly the same place. I see that in S_N_L's words. I hope I don't sound like "Thinker" when my H comes here and posts. I think she needs to work a little more on the principles taught.snl...it is interesting (and a bit disconcerting) to recognize ourselves and spouses in others, I mean aren't we all unique, isn't my love the special one of the ages? On the other hand if there is only a small finite set of behaviours and personalities, it gives hope that a set of solutions can be found and applied to all. For me, it was almost um..... embarrassing to read and hear the things other ws say, and see myself, don't know what to make of it. lupo...Sorry, Thinker, but I think you AND S_N_L are continuing to "push each other's buttons" and I don't see changes in your methods of relating to each other. WIthout that, your H doesn't see a reason to stay, and quite frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.Flame away, folks. I'm learning too.snl...here is a match, might burn your pinky if ya hold it long enuf, is the best I can do. If you want real flames go to one of the affair support boards, and tell em they are all from the mothership, might get ya some action.

This is S_n_l wife. Just a note to say, I have been thinking about what you all had to say. Husband told me he didn't mind me being on the board, I will not post much. Yes I have not done well with Plan A, yes I sometimes make being here difficult. There are many things you don't realize about our life. Won't go into it, but has a lot to do with our troubles. One positive is H and his mother are talking civilized. Asked H if it made him feel good, agreed. Not saying they are friends, but civilized. Made it a special moment for myself, hate confrontation.H enjoys dealing with points of discussion. I feel he would of been a good corporate lawyer. Except for his disorganizational skills, maybe a good secretary could of supplied that. He has good research skills, and thinks through problems with great skill. One of the things I do not like, is he trys to solve my problems, I would like him to talk and show sympathy and concern, and sometimes solve, but not all the time. Caring and protecting are needed 75% of the time.I got blasted tonight by H with anger and name calling. Over conversation of OW and his feelings. He did apologize later, but I am not able to take much more. Maybe things will start to turn around when he gets rid of the OW. I could feel this morning when I said good morning to him, that he was not in a good mood. Talking to him on the phone he was sort of rude, giving service calls to him. He was not normal. I have a good sense with his moods. H might have felt bad today, it would of been nice if he would of expressed it and I would of just taken a back seat. I have to interact him on a daily basis with service calls, paperwork, phones, and etc.We talked tonight about who will leave in 2 weeks. Jennifer Harley and I talked this past Thursday about doing Plan B, if H did not get rid of the OW. H and I agreed that it would be best if I leave, I will hate leaving the kids and interactions of the household. Having the animals and his mother next door. She and I have become great friends. She gives me the most loving cards, cards that express how she loves me as a daughter-in-law, and always puts love in them, and I know she means it from the depth of her heart. I do love my husband, I know he states that he feels I don't. But the love is there. I feel he will not be satisfied with any relationship until he has found out if this OW is meant for him or not. I am totally confused about this affair, our relationship (what there is), and the act of living with a man with another woman on the side. My husband loves the OW, and I don't know if he will ever love me. (It hurts). As he left to go to bed, he says we will have a more fruitful conversation tomorrow. He ends up sleeping during our conversations, so I just sit and read or do whatever until he wakes up. Anyways, his last comment before he left was you don't realize what you trigger in me and you don't seem to care. No comment made by me, because it was not worth a comment. I care, and asked him what I said to trigger an irrational, irate, balistic reaction from him. Like when I caught him talking to the OW on the cellphone when I went to his bed to tell him about our 17 year old son coming in beyond the curfew set. I don't know what I do, maybe just being me, just walking into his view, just to see my face reminds him of the worst days of his life, I don't know. All I know is that if he is truly very unhappy, we need to separate. If he does not want to give this marriage a good hearty try, then that means separation. I feel we would have a good marriage and a very loving relationship if we both put our feet on the path the Harleys have and work, work, work, with our hearts. Mine will be there to do it, but I am not sure my H has the same feelings. He stated a comment tonight that makes me unsure.What do you think of WS paying the OP cell phone bill? Just a question that I would like info on. Do any other BS know if there WS is paying the OP cell phone bill? How did they find out the amount? Curious.

Thinker and SnL...I find it interesting that someone so *pragmatic* and given to *research and understanding* can be so unemotional in one part of his life, and yet so volatile and confrontational in another?? It boggles the mind that SnL can talk about not loving his W, and yet be *in love* with another woman. I think the attacks, name calling and blaming are totally emotional reactions, and then the apolology comes...it that the pragmatist or the emotional connection still being employed by the heart? My gut instinct tells me there is more inside SnL than he even realizes or wants to admit, but that would just be my opinion. He enjoys the philosophical approach to life, but yet often reacts from an emotional basis. It is no wonder there are so many underlying questions in Thinkers mind, as well as SnL's. I hope he can truly come to the root of the problems, as I do not believe he has yet realized what they are. Without true realizations of cause and effect, there can be no real solutions to the problems facing you. *Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*Trueheart

Just wanted to note that LOVE is a decision that we make. Love does involve our mind because we have to choose to love at times when we don't FEEL love. We choose to love because we know that we were sane when we decided to marry the person we pledged our lives to.Feelings are fickle and they do change which is why we cannot afford to base our decisions on feelings. We have choices to make in life. It's not about changing as much as it is about choices, because change is inevitable, and through all the changes in life, we have choices to make.We can start doing anything we want to do and we can stop doing anything we want to stop doing. We are in control. We don't eat out of the gutter, right? So we are in control.Some say that marriage is just a piece of paper, well so is a 20 dollar bill, it's just according to your values. A person is only as good as their word. If your word (VOW/PROMISE) is no good, what good are you--meaning where is your character?I'm not saying that I'm perfect, we are all projects in work. I'm just saying this to address the question of what meaning is a vow. There is a place in the bible that says it is better not to make a vow rather than to make a vow before God and not keep it. When we exchanged marital vows, we made promises. Our word is all we have. "Confidence in an unfaithful man in time of trouble is like a broken tooth and a foot out of joint..." I have been told that if we give our word, we should keep it or at least die trying to keep it--that's the definition of character.When we don't know better but we learn better, hopefully we then DO better...

You have read S_n_l posts. His Vows were not made for keeps. I am a christian, still am. We married in the church of God. I have always been going to church, since a child. When husband dated me I was with a group of young woman in christian teachings. Called the Navigators. I know I made my vows for keeps, plus I do love my husband. He states in the posts here, that he loves the OW, and does not love me, never loved me. He feels that I never loved him and will not ever love him, only needs him and use him. How is one to deal with this hurt. The hurt is so deep to my soul. God knows deep inside what I feel. God knows what my H did and the OW did are totally sinful. When you talk about christianity to my H, I really do not know what his beliefs are anymore. I try to tell myself he is in a deep FOG, but it still hurts. I married this man because of his christian beliefs that he wanted christ in his life and act according to Gods will. I married this man because of his intelligence, he was a strong man not a submissive man, he was a lot of fun being with, we had a lot in common in our beliefs and ways of life, he was active outdoors, he enjoyed life and looked forward to having a family, he enjoyed his family, he had few friends, but with my friends we had more. I married this man because I totally loved him and wanted to care for him and be his friend and lover. God was with us all the way and I look at God everyday. I talk with God every day and I feel that God has placed me in situations to find out more about my H affair. My H has even stated, why were you there at that time? I told him many times, I just get this notion to be somewhere, and I find my H doing something unfaithful. Explain that to him. I can't, except for the power of God.

More thoughts about this situation: I requote what was written (if anyone is still interested):He's talking about EMOTIONS. (I THINK) He's saying that IF you need to feel "loved" and you don't feel it in your marriage, you stray! And he did. And now he still feels "out of love with his W" and doesn't know why everyone is trying to make him feel bad about it. Am I getting close, S_N_L? snl....pretty close. I cannot function right if I don't know where I am at. That is why my marriage to terry has been so damaging, I never knew where I was with her, and it is part of why I want so desperately to get away.This is the honesty (and misery)coming out right here. S_N_L and Thinker have been yanking each other by the emotional hair for so long, they don't even realize they are doing it any more. Lupo...I feel sorry for you if this is truly the state you are in. snl...are you being emotionally honest, do you truly feel sorry for me?Yes, I truly do. I feel sorry for both of you. You continue to make each other UNhappy, as this seems to be the only way you both know to relate to each other any more. Neither seems to know how to break out of this rut. snl...I agree, and I have found my wifes response confusing, somedays it is leave, other days it is stay, and often is it is vows you promised me. She does not fully comprehend what this does to me. Another glimpse into S_N_L's psyche...he's AFRAID!! He doesn't trust his W to NOT hurt him again! She has not made him feel SAFE enough to "come home" emotionally. Understandable, since they are still relating to each other with the OLD tapes. Nothing new seems to be going on here.snl...yep, but I would add, each must freely choose each other, and not just with the mind, there must be something special in the heart too, and that is the scarey painful part. It must be both, will not work just cause one wants it so bad.OK, so here's a problem...BINthere...YOU said "Love is a choice..." so I guess MY question, and maybe the question S_N_L wants answered is: "Then why doesn't he have the right to CHOOSE to go be with OW if that is how he FEELS?" A valid question by one who is "feeling" loved by that OP and feels like he "Chose" to be loved by that OP and gave up his ability to "choose" to love his W?snl...it is interesting (and a bit disconcerting) to recognize ourselves and spouses in others, I mean aren't we all unique, isn't my love the special one of the ages? On the other hand if there is only a small finite set of behaviours and personalities, it gives hope that a set of solutions can be found and applied to all. For me, it was almost um..... embarrassing to read and hear the things other ws say, and see myself, don't know what to make of it. I think that's the beauty of the MB material. There IS a finite set of behaviors which can and DO make a difference in our lives, our relationships with others. Many of us never learn the truly important ones, we just bungle through life bouncing off of one relationship or another, and blame all others for their failures to develop. (Not necessarily marital relationships, either, ALL relationships) More food for thought. Lupo

Lupo, what you said makes sense. I know I have done thngs to push my husband away. I have tried to hide the depression and saddness in me. Some days I am quite successful, but some days are difficult.Why does the WS feel that they can throw out ugly hurtful words to the BS? This happened just a few days ago. The anger in H was balistic again. I just started crying and wanting to be away from him immediately, run for my life. He is not the man I married, he is not caring to his W, he is caring and protective to the OW, he acts unstable. Jennifer told me he is sick like someone on heroin. He needs his fix. But to hear my husband talk, he is not in a fog and is thinking very clearly. I have delt with mental conditions in the health field. He does act scizo and it bothers me that maybe he is mentally affected. We both need to sit down and do the EN list. Even though they are not to be met yet. Jennifer basically has us just being caring and thoughtful to each other at this time. H is still talking to the OW. But she said nothing else, and till we move off of block 1 and onto the path. Like my husband said and the movie AI. There will come a time when humans (made up humans) will not feel love, caring, emotions, etc. Then there will be no more divorce, no marriage, no children, no nothing. Won't life be boring and dull. No food to eat no water to drink, no toilets to flush, no baths, no perspiration, no temperatures, no illness, etc. Everyone will be just a # and nothing else. I don't want to live like that, I want my husband as #1 in my life and forever.

I have been reading all the posts in this thread. I see so much hurt continuing, but luckily, I also see those that have healing happening well underway.As for the original question posed by trueheart. I am the BS. It has now been 10 months since D-Day (PA and EA), a year since I first began suspecting something and about 4 years since our loving, close, happy together relationship began changing. (married 19 years this coming July 16.) What has kept me trying? So many things. 1) The main thing has been my love for him, the years of an unsually close and loving relationship, and yes, making the conscious CHOICE to try and keep that love alive in my heart, against all odds. The desire to "stick by" the man I love through this as I have with other types of tough times life has occassionally thrown us. (Only difference, the other times, I knew the battle was "together" and with love and trust on both sides.)2) The COMMITMENT I made when I freely made those vows in our church, under the watchful eyes of God. (even though in my religious beliefs, he made those vows null and void when he committed A and I do not have to be held to them.) They are still Sacred to me. That includes doing by best (though I falter at times) to stand by him in this difficult time of trying to find himself, faith struggles, and depression that leaves him feeling, in his own words, disconnected with everyone and alone. I keep trying to have the patience to "wait for my time" to come.3) We have a 16 year old daughter we both love (although she has expressed to me not "feeling" loved by him in quite sometime because of the personality changes he has and is going through.)4) Yes, the thought of failure is a motivator. I had one marriage fail. But it was totally different. I was only 17 when we married. He never actually loved me and ran around on me more times than I could count both before and after we married. Those times hurt but cannot compare in scope and depth to this one. Compare a paper cut to major heart surgery and you have an inkling!5) He was honestly repentant and so giving the first few days after D-Day, even though he did slip back into the "twilight zone" that has become more the norm for him both before, during and after the A. (A Pod Person maybe????)6) He has had times of the "light" going on and was able to (unconsciously I hope and try to believe) reel me back in, giving me hope. Just when I reach a point of quitting, or of moving on to Plan B, he has a breakthrough, very emotional and suddenly. I would find the strength (I guess that's what you would call it) to keep trying to Plan A, and to show my love and support for him. It's just that those times have so far only lasted for a couple of days at the most.7) Guilt has also been a motivator. I have fallen into the hole so much of the time of taking the blame on myself, justifying his actions in my mind, on my own behaviors. I know that I definitely did, without realizing it, contribute to the atmosphere that was conducive to his having the A. We began having financial troubles, job related problems, etc. I even changed jobs hoping to improve it but I went from the frying pan into the fire. I was so stressed, felt changes in our relationship, both withdrawing some. I did neglect him but I also felt neglected by him. I went into a full-blown depression that lasted for over a year, and I am not at all prone to depression. He, however has had bouts of depression his whole life. When I would try to peek out and reach out to discuss "us" and how I felt, he would just get angry, pushing me back into hiding, which pushed him further away. A vicious cycle. We have been over and over this and may never find resolution. So many of our conversations return to this (it reached a point that the last time, I am afraid I did blow up big time over it. I yelled at him, which is not like me, saying "Your transgressions were so much bigger than mine, and I have forgiven you. But you just can't forgive me! I have accepted, admitted, repented for, done everything I can think of to make up for and asked you to forgive me for mine, but you just can't! I don't throw yours in your face but you always throw mine in my face saying 'but you..... !Why can't you forgive me!" He did come over to me and say "I am sorry for hurting you, for betraying you, so very sorry." I do truly regret my neglect of him, of our relationship. Only time will tell if we can finally move on past this in his heart. I admit I have had times of great resentment that, even though I have stood by him when he has had long periods of difficult times, the one time in our marriage that I truly needed him to stand by me and help me for a length time, he couldn't. He "bailed." These times, though real, are not helpful.Didn't mean to ramble. Maybe this gives you some insight into us BS that continue for so long.God give us strength AFL[This message has been edited by AFL (edited July 13, 2001).]