I have read the Harley principles and believe in the MB tactics that I am learning, but I need some help in understanding something here...<P>I am a WS that is unGodly sorry for all the pain, hurt, anger, fear and everything else that has been caused by my actions. But something really bothers me and hopefully some of you can straighten me out?!<P>It seems to me that when we talk about LB, Plan A, Plan B, Agreements of Radical Honesty, HN/HN that the ones that are feeling sorry and guilty for their behaviors right now are the BS?? I read constantly about WS that are taking advantage of the situations, making the BS feel bad because they want to stick up for themselves, try to hold the WS accountable...and I see constantly don't do anything to upset them or that is an LB. I realize some WS are still in the fog, but how much crap after D-day do the BS have to handle? I want to slap some of these WS silly at the opportunity they have to mend some fences and it seems to me, they just take advantage of the BS, over and over again. Am I wrong or is this what is happening? I understand about coming from a loving place in your heart, but some of you have been getting slapped in the face consistently and I guess I just dont understand. When is enough enough?<P>I am not placing myself above anyone else here, just trying to understand. I know what my infidelity did to my partner and I just hate what it is doing to some of my friends here.<BR>Thanks for your input!!<P>*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

trueheart<P>When is enough, enough? I think it is different for each individual. Some of us can put up with much more than others.<P>My H told me for approx 2 years that he didn't love me. He should never have married me. I always ruined his fun. blah, blah, blah.<P>On the other hand, I loved him, we had, had a basically good marriage. I didn't always ruin his fun. I was just not very tolerant.<P>I really didn't care what he wanted. I wanted my marriage to continue. I took the HIGH ROAD and didn't buy into all of his negative and hateful comments. I didn't retaliate. It would only cause severe arguements. I would just tell him that I was sorry he felt that way. He had his feelings (for the moment) and I had mine. Feelings change all of the time.<P>We have now reconciled after 18 months of seperation that incluuded his affair. Our marriage is so much stronger now. We both learned so much. Me especially, thanks to MB.<P>I'm glad I didn't listen to him. I always felt that he would be back and that's why enough wasn't enough. <P>PS: My H thanked me for the way I dealt with the situation and treated him throughout this crisis.

trueheart,<P>Dr. Harley touches on this in the book Surviving An Affair. He says that usually the WS feels that they were driven to their affair by a spouse who neglected their emotional needs. In MB terms, their love banks are so depleted before the affair that they feel no love for their spouse. So they do not necessarily feel lucky that the BS is giving them another chance. I guess they feel that they are giving the BS another chance. <P>I recall that Harley says that many WS never apologize for their affair, as they feel justified. Yet it is generally the case that the BS’s needs have not been met for a long time either. <P>So when is enough enough? When the BS can no longer take the emotional pain. I believe in a short plan A to minimize the damage to the BS. But each person has to make that decision for himself/herself<P>I think that one thing that is different with you, STL and some others is that the love was still there. So it was easier to acknowledge the BS’s pain. <P><BR>Does this make sense?<P>Z <BR><p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 09, 2001).]

Yes it is true that the BS bears the initial brunt of the recovery and setting the example. Plan A should be short lived if it is carried out correctly by the BS & Ws. When this does not happen then plan B shoudl be executed. <P>So the BS carries the initial load, rightly the WS should be carrying the follow-up. BS should not apologize too much that can make the WS keep up their wayward course. Making the Ws too complacent. <P>Like an older child setting the example for his younger siblings. However, in time the younger ones have to carry their own load. <P>Same principle. <P>L.<BR>

I don't think that Harley in any way is saying that the BS is feeling guilty or responsible, or is. I fact the BS is NOT responsible, not to blame for the horrendously bad decisions of the WS. Plan A looks very much like that to the WS probably, and feels very much like that to the BS, (hence why so many have trouble doing it), and yes, I think many people do take it to unhealthy levels of just plain old co-dependence, BUT, the plan is there as one way to try to stop the affair, not as a way of life, and it has worked to this end in many cases.<P>Ideally, Plan A needs to develop further down the road into the 4 steps to a healty marriage, and recovery, which is a two way street, this is just not possible until no contact has been established though, and Plan A is just a means to this end. If you look at the goals in site, and realize the BS's that are doing this are going against every natural instinct you will see it is really a very brave act of pure love to even try it temporarily. But, in the end, you are right, the WS needs to come out of it, and come back to the marriage, it cannot go on forever as a one way street while the BS gets used and hurt and betrayed.<P>

Thanks for the replies...<P>That leads to my next question...it would seem to me that a short Plan A is best as well, but if the WS doesnt own up to their end of deal, why do so many BS continue to be treated this way? Why do they give chance after chance? I guess I am feeling a bit strange....it hit me right after D-day that I needed to do all I could to get on the right track. Did I not feel the Emotional Attachment that some WS do? I knew right away where my heart belonged and felt very fortunate that I was even given a chance. Am I just weird?...LOL.<P>Trueheart

No, not weird...just able to 'see' and 'own' your own stuff faster...<P>I read a lot of BS's posts who don't account for their own responsibility in the marriage that <I>led to the 'environment' that led to the affair </I> (from SAA). I knew my part in what happened right away....owned it...took responsibility for it and started on my changes...<P>I think how long you 'plan A' might have something to do with that...how long does it take BS to become strong, make their changes, own their stuff, and come to the decision that WS is NOT pulling their weight...once BS gets to that point...where love is in danger, where BS needs 'protection,' Plan B is not far behind...<P>Just today I was thinking...I might not be the greatest catch in the sea, but my H is nuts to give me up...there are a lot of things about me someone else would appreciate...I know that I am close to saying..."Fine, you don't want me, you don't want to be married...done...Plan B..." S*** or get off the pot time, ya know?<P>Just my opinion!<P>Cali

I totally agree with what everyone is saying. I wonder how in the world some people can "hang on" for 2-3 years - or even 6 months. I don't think I can. But it's been 8 weeks for me - I never would've thought I could hang on THAT long! The truth is, we don't know what we can handle - or are WILLING to tolerate until we are put in a situation. I certainly wouldn't allow my H to have a second A and hang around for it! BUT, I NEVER thought I would hang around after one A either. True, sometimes, I think we BS's condition ourselves to tolerate more and more - and perhaps more than we should. But I know I am growing myself in the process - learning about myself, which I can apply to all areas of my life. At some point, I will know when it's not beneficial to me - or worth it - to hang on. I am willing to wait for my prodigal H to wake up and make changes and commitments, but not forever.<P>Just wondering... You've probably told your story on other threads... how did you come "out of the fog"? Did your BS wait for you? Did they Plan A you? What if they had given up on you? Maybe your BS was lucky - it didn't take long for you to see the light. We're not all that lucky... <P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Oh, I wish the Ws's would learn at a faster pace. It is so hard when the WS is a 'slow learner'. In my case, my patience as the BS has worn thin. We are not even talking about the love bank, just the patience part. Not much left that's for sure. <P>Does the WS need to do this? Some think so and seem like they enjoy it. Mine took me to that level even though I asked him not to. Maybe it was like waving a red flag in front of a slow bull. push push push until blamm! Now I am wondering if it is still worth it. <P>TH, you are not weird if you are facing reality. I am happy for you. I wish my H was progressing the same. <P>L.<BR>

It seems to me that for some reason BS's mostly tend to blame themselves for their WS's A? <P>Sure, it takes two healthy givers to keep the marriage thriving, but when one chooses to seek to have their needs met outside of the marriage, to me, it really boils down to individual character.<P>Why do BS's give WS's chance after chance to really prove their bad behavior? I think it's like Faith1 said, one really doesn't know HOW one will react until the situation arises, and this applies to life's circumstances, in general... Maybe BS's go into shock, not to mention experience a great loss of self-worth, depression, fear, confusion--and many other negative emotions that tend to paralyze us sending logic right out the door.<P>When we look at infidelity logically, the solutions seem easy, but emotionally it is not. Like for example, we might say we would never put up with such and such behavior, but when you actually come face to face with it, it becomes a different story. After all the pain subsides, then anger sets in so it is very extremely important to remain close to God in all of life's battles, regardless. Love (God's love in us) never fails, and we can love with the door closed!<P>People have all sorts of reasons, but in the end God gets the glory when we can look back and talk about it with a smile noticing all the pain is gone. How about Patient1's testimony! WHAT AN INCREDIBLE STORY OF GOD'S GOODNESS AND MERCY! Way to go, God!

True heart i wanted to ask the same questions of the bs in here that you have thank you for doing it in a better way than i could have.<BR> My H had an A that lasted 5 weeks in duration, NO EMOTIONAL committment, ( so it is technically not an affair accorded to the Harley definition of affair), For me it was that that saved us. The fact is that my H DID not give his HEART and his SECRET places to another. Funny , i could deal with the betrayl of his body easier than his mind!! I am inclined to say that i would not have tried to save our marriage for years on end,and i thank GOD i did not have to. He told me of what happened and completly re committed to us and it has been a wonderful time of growth for us. I have nothing but respect for those of you that are going into YEARS of recovery, with no real signs of hope, but yet still maintaining hope within your self. You are made of stronger stuff than most. I feel blessed that i did get out of this with very few scars, and a very remorseful H, and a OW who is not even in the same country to cause trouble if she wanted. HOw do you all cope with the OP INTRUDING in your lives like she has a right?? Iknw that for some of t you the OP is smack dab in the middle of your life and how doyou cope?? NOw i am rambling on, I jeed to get on with my day , RAIN what to do with 3 kids LOL<BR>Maine <P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

Well, call me old fashioned. I made a promise. I believe I have a deep understanding of what my wife is coping with. Although she denies it now, someday she might need me. <P>I'm not staring out the window waiting, I'm continuing my life as a father. I'm content knowing I'm doing the right thing.<P>WAT

Morning everyone...<P>Thanks so much for the replies...I continue to be amazed at the strength of the BS here. I, too, have seen some that are in recovery for 1-2 years and still fighting. You have my utmost respect, especially those that have been slapped in the face over and over and continue to believe, continue to try, continue to love and hang in there. I am amazed at how long it takes for some WS to come out of the FOG. I am also amazed at how many WS take no responsibility for the A and blame their weakness on the BS and they were driven to it. Yes, we all share in the breakdown of communication and needs not being met, but to absolve one's self of all responsibility and blame at the expense of the one we love is nuts! <P>Faith...I came out of the fog when I was confronted with the facts. W had monitored my email and saw a card that was sent to me. When I heard and saw the pain, fear, anger, and hurt that I caused this wonderful woman, my little rosy glasses were shattered!! It took me all of five minutes to realize the depths of what I had done to her and to us. My <BR>A never reached PA level, but to her, (and her perception is what matters, right?), it was as if I had. I realized what she means to me and the fragile nature of love. I realized how easily a foundation can be shaken and damaged. I realized how much I did not want to live without her in my life and set out to right the wrongs. I am extremely lucky and grateful that she saw fit to give me that chance. <P>From what I have seen, the fog is thicker and burns off much slower for some, but I cant help but wonder if some WS use the nature of the *fog* as a reason to continue being a WS, with the guise of *I am not sure what I want* or *I don't know what to do*. I am sure some are legit, but I get the feeling that some string the BS along, so that the BS will make final decisions to split and, again, absolve themselves of the responsibility for the ultimate failure of the M. I can't help but feel they feel justified in continuing the A, so that they can *see* what they want. Personally, for me, I knew when I saw the tears, exactly how much she loved me and what I meant to her. There was really was no tough decision on my part. I guess I am one of the lucky ones...my toughest battle was not inside me, but in getting her to believe I deserved another chance. She gave it to me, and I am making the most of it.<P>Patient...Congrats!! Yours is truly an inspiration to those still fighting!!<P>Cali...my continued support and huggggggz to you in your continuing efforts. You are truly an amazing study in *stickativity*, and you are quite a catch, I think. Hopefully, H will realize this again your recovery can begin anew.<P>WAT and Orchid...my continued support for your efforts!!<P>Maine...it was a question that I have pondered alot since reading more and more and seeing what the BS go through in recovery...and more than one D-day!! I am amazed that so many can continue to deal with more pain.<P>Thanks again...yall have a great day!!<P>*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

Actually I wonder about some of the BS myself, just as a person (not in my ws role), it is amazing to me how far some will go, and I wonder if it is love or insecurity, self-esteem issues etc. and though some "make" it, ultimately many are left drained and abandoned anyways. Of course each has to decide for themselves, and asess the viability of a recovery, and whether the investment is worth it. But in general, figuring average human beings, I would think a well executed plan a of anything up to 6 months or so should be adequate, then a move to plan b if no real success. What I like about the harley stuff is it is not about reasons, or blame, or fairness, it is very ultilitarian. If you want to save your marriage (and save it so it works in the future) this is what you do. It may not work, but it will reveal whether the marriage is worthwhile, and at same time will improve the skills of the bs (and ws for that matter if they participate), a truly win win solution.<P>As for my ws attitude, well I have spilled it freely all over the place here to be looked at if one is interested. My fundamental issue is whether our marriage should exist. Plan a was made for ws like myself. I am indeed unrepentant, I don't think my wife loves me (as opposed to needs me, and values my taking care of her), never have, and don't feel in love either. This is perhaps the most difficult of "normal" affairs to resolve, and takes longer (if ever). I can see where "in-love" marriages that got a little off track (vis a vis EN deprivation) get resolved quicker. Yes I am sorry (and feel guilty) about my wifes pain, but when I look at the pain we will both experience (albeit in smaller doses), living together another 30-40 years of passionateless marriage, then the pain cannot be the reason to reconcille....unless a bs wants to a ws to stay out of pity.<P>It is hard listening to many of you castigate me, I really don't know what to do, just that I am determined not to go back to what I had. Some of you want that (it was good and we just got lost), and that is ok, but it does not apply to me. My w and I are literaly going to have to choose each other again, and if that is to happen I (my wife can decide for herself re me) have to see something different than I have seen heretofore, hence the importance of the plan a stuff. Is it fair? I guess every circumstance is different, maybe I am not worthy of her, and she will leave me, I don't know. I just know I am doing my honest best to find the correct path. If I am truly just a screwed up ws in a beamed down from the mothership to a fogbank, then I guess I can only hope she goes the distance, but it doesn't feel like that. I think my concerns are legitimate, and falling in love with ow was no different than had I been dating my wife and discovered another person who I fit better. But I don't know, so I talk and talk and talk, and analyze, analyze, analyze, it is all I know how to do. And I have studied the MB stuff, and slowly trying to apply it, but it is much harder to be motivated when there is so much LB going on......so there we are, back to the benefits of the plan a. For some of the ws, the failure to execute a good plan a just proves we were right, the marriage does not work well. So asking us to "fix" things, and do the stuff too just cause it is right doesn't work, many of us think that is what we have been doing all along, carrying the emotional responsibility for the marriage, and we don't want to do it anymore.

To sad_n_loney--<P>Posted by you above:<BR>"Falling in love with OW was no different than had I been dating my wife and discovered another person who I fit better."<P>Wow! What a classic. I haven't posted in a while b/c recovery is going great, but I just had to respond. Do you listen to yourself? You can't think of ANYTHING that differentiates the two situations? How about that with your W now, YOU PROMISED TO BE WITH HER FOREVER--COME BETTER OR WORSE. You are not "dating" your wife now dude, your married to her. Wake up from your mental slumber. <P>Sorry, just had to shoot a lightning bolt at that one. Take it or leave it sad_n_loney.<P>JB<BR>

trueheart,<P>I had to check your profile to see if you were my H. As far as I know he doesn't come here. He knows about it and knows my user name. You seem to have the same thoughts as he does, though. <P>My H didn't like that I was trying to find out what I might have done wrong to aid in his straying (while I was reading SAA). He said that there was nothing wrong, he just messed up big time. He said that he never had any withdrawal from OW and that he did not have some great emotional attachment to her.<P>I just wanted to say hi since you sound so much like my hubbie. I haven't endured what so many of these people have. There are some amazing people here. My H's EA was devastating to me, but if he had been in the Fog and all of that, I hope that I would have been as strong as many of the these BS's.<P>Take care,<BR>Window

My hat is off to you TH. Wouldn't it be great if all WS were like you.

As a BS, I have to say that the reason I want to work so hard on saving my marriage is that I really thought things were OK in my relationship, i.e. we were getting along OK until I learned about the A. I want to work on making things OK again. Actually I want to make things great again. I realize that I got lazy and took things for granted. The A was a wake-up call. Things are getting better slowly.<P>MOST WS are not as repentive as you are. Your spouse is lucky!<P>BUT I will say that I will not go through this again. If things work out, and I think they will, I will not give him a second chance. I don't think it will come to this since I am much more educated in meeting his needs. I feel like a different person now.<P>R3

Johnny, I am a pretty basic guy, and I call em as I see em, there is nothing in making a vow that changes us psychologically, and it was emotions I was addressing, not cognitive choice. The Harley's make it clear, and they are right, under the right circumstances anyone can have an affair. That is becuase we are put together as human beings to respond to other human beings, and our marital status is irrelevant, it is not part of our genetics. Many confuse actions taken with emotions felt, they are not the same. Perhaps that clarifys the point of my post, this thread seemed to be about feelings. Now if we start debating cognitive actions, we can talk about vows (and givers and takers), and how they are not possible to make as an absolute. There is no one here who if pushed hard enuf would not forsake their vows (well maybe a few diehards who would die first, but then that would quality as mentally ill). So it just boils down to the usual, where the line in the sand is drawn, and those on your side are ok, and those who are not, are defective in some way. I have said many times and do so again, that an affair occurs is of little consequence, it is the reason why and what to do about it that counts. There is no difference between acting on an affair, or wanting to and not doing so by will power. The marital problems (and dysfunctions) remain the same. Far better for an affair to occur and marriage get restored, than for 2 moral folks to resist others, and dutifully (and dysfunctionally) do nothing in their marriage, cause they were focused on being moral IMO. Thx for your observation, it was taken in the helpful spirit it was given.<P>I am curious though, why do you think a vow means anything? You can't think yourself into, or out of love, so a vow is nothing more than a statement of your intent at the time made. There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? It would seem much more prudent to focus on the principles of marriage (and most importantly emotional honesty) than to sit back and figure I was given a vow, I am fixed (partner wise) for life. Let me ask you something, if your wife made it clear she did not love you, did not want to be married to you, but would not leave due to the vow, would you want the marriage to continue? That is why vows mean nothing, they cannot gaurantee feelings, and it is the feelings that we want, and that keep us married, or working on marriage.

<B>it was emotions I was addressing, not cognitive choice. The Harley's make it clear, and they are right, under the right circumstances anyone can have an affair. That is becuase we are put together as human beings to respond to other human beings, and our marital status is irrelevant</B><BR>Well, Hallelujah, I'm finally understanding where S_N_L is coming from! He's talking about EMOTIONS. (I THINK) He's saying that IF you need to feel "loved" and you don't feel it in your marriage, you stray! And he did. And now he still feels "out of love with his W" and doesn't know why everyone is trying to make him feel bad about it.<P>Am I getting close, S_N_L? <P><B>we can talk about vows (and givers and takers), and how they are not possible to make as an absolute. There is no one here who if pushed hard enuf would not forsake their vows</B><BR>The vows are not important, because *all* they represent is how we felt *at the time* we made them. In other words, you were a "giver" when you said "Forsaking all others" on your wedding day. You were also a "Taker" because you wanted to "TAKE" your spouse's love for yourself, to make you feel good and meet YOUR needs. How'm'I doing? <P><B>The marital problems (and dysfunctions) remain the same. Far better for an affair to occur and marriage get restored</B><BR>I think this said TO ME that it might be better to have a M shaken TO ITS CORE than remain in a critical stage of terminal COMA, unfeeling and unfulfilling to both. With this in mind, then both parties might be motivated to change things for the better.<P><B>I am curious though, why do you think a vow means anything? You can't think yourself into, or out of love, so a vow is nothing more than a statement of your intent at the time made.</B><BR>Here it is! Addressed above.<P>How am I doing, S_N_L?? Am I understanding you where you are? <P><B> There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? It would seem much more prudent to focus on the principles of marriage (and most importantly emotional honesty) than to sit back and figure I was given a vow, I am fixed (partner wise) for life. ... if your wife made it clear she did not love you, did not want to be married to you, but would not leave due to the vow, would you want the marriage to continue? That is why vows mean nothing, they cannot gaurantee feelings, and it is the feelings that we want, and that keep us married, or working on marriage.</B><P>I feel sorry for you if this is truly the state you are in. If you and your BS cannot get to the point where you are working to restore LOVE into your M, but are only STANDING on and PRESSURING the other to remain in the M because "you took vows you would" - then by all means, I AGREE with you! You ought not to stay! The feelings are there, because YOU BOTH WORK TO KEEP THEM THERE FOR THE OTHER.<BR>Sorry to seem to be shouting, but I'm trying to show emphasis.<P>I guess this was what would be called an "AHA!" moment for me, cause this is where my H is right now. He believed whole-heartedly that I DID NOT work at our M, that I was just trusting that since we had "taken vows" we should just always be together, no matter how miserable either (or both) of us was or was making the other. I have since learned otherwise. Two people must work together to make a M a happy one for both. It CAN be brought back together by one, as taught on this forum, BUT it cannot stay together by only one. Both have to commit to making it healthy again (maybe more healthy than it has ever been).<P>I had to read hard and long to NOT believe that S_N_L was NOT MY H!!! If Thinker had not surfaced, I would've still believed he was my H. He is in exactly the same place. I see that in S_N_L's words. I hope I don't sound like "Thinker" when my H comes here and posts. I think she needs to work a little more on the principles taught. <P>Sorry, Thinker, but I think you AND S_N_L are continuing to "push each other's buttons" and I don't see changes in your methods of relating to each other. WIthout that, your H doesn't see a reason to stay, and quite frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.<P>Flame away, folks. I'm learning too.<BR>Lupo<P>