<B> There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? </B><P>S_N_L,<BR> one more point (then I'll go hide under my bed!) - <P>there IS a mechanism to insure a human being will "always feel that way..." and it is found in the MB principles!!! It's as simple as that!! I believe that if they are strictly adhered to, the "feeling" of being in love with your spouse, or ANYONE else, will be there! FOREVER!!<BR>I hope you and Thinker will try to apply them, and get OUT of your old behavior patterns of relating to each other. You are still hurting each other. And it's not healthy, nor is it conducive to a happy M.<BR>My .02 (or .04?)<BR>Lupo<P>

By now Lupo you must have realized I am one of those who enjoys (and values) the philosophic side of life. Despite many comments (and a few downright accusations), I am not here for justification, I don't need any, I do what I want. But I do seek to understand why I do the things I do, hence my interest sometimes seeming off the wall, it's all important, human beings are fairly complex. And I do want what "I want" to be um........ mentally healthy I suppose, make sense in other words.<P>...it was emotions I was addressing, not cognitive choice. The Harley's make it clear, and they are right, under the right circumstances anyone can have an affair. That is becuase we are put together as human beings to respond to other human beings, and our marital status is irrelevant<BR>Lupo...Well, Hallelujah, I'm finally understanding where S_N_L is coming from! He's talking about EMOTIONS. (I THINK) He's saying that IF you need to feel "loved" and you don't feel it in your marriage, you stray! And he did. And now he still feels "out of love with his W" and doesn't know why everyone is trying to make him feel bad about it.<BR>Am I getting close, S_N_L? <P>snl....pretty close.<P>we can talk about vows (and givers and takers), and how they are not possible to make as an absolute. There is no one here who if pushed hard enuf would not forsake their vows<BR>lupo...The vows are not important, because *all* they represent is how we felt *at the time* we made them. In other words, you were a "giver" when you said "Forsaking all others" on your wedding day. You were also a "Taker" because you wanted to "TAKE" your spouse's love for yourself, to make you feel good and meet YOUR needs.How'm'I doing?<P>snl...this wasn't mine, just took out of the g/t book. If I got it right vows are all giver, the taker is left at home, or would never allow such a vow to be made....but he will come out later, and goodbye vow.<P>...The marital problems (and dysfunctions) remain the same. Far better for an affair to occur and marriage get restored<BR>lupo...I think this said TO ME that it might be better to have a M shaken TO ITS CORE than remain in a critical stage of terminal COMA, unfeeling and unfulfilling to both. With this in mind, then both parties might be motivated to change things for the better.<P>snl...yes.... and no, having in mind won't motivate anyone to do anything...humans respond poorly to 'warnings", but much better to direct consequences.<P><BR>How am I doing, S_N_L?? Am I understanding you where you are? <P>snl...getting there, my viewpoint is pragmatic, cause and effect. But I discuss it in philosophic terms sometimes, it is confusing, but there has to be an underlying truth to cause and effect and that not only interests me, I need it in part in order to function. I don't just want to understand stuff, I need too, I cannot function right if I don't know where I am at. That is why my marriage to terry has been so damaging, I never knew where I was with her, and it is part of why I want so desperately to get away.<P>There is no mechanism to insure a human being will always "feel" that way...is there? It would seem much more prudent to focus on the principles of marriage (and most importantly emotional honesty) than to sit back and figure I was given a vow, I am fixed (partner wise) for life. ... if your wife made it clear she did not love you, did not want to be married to you, but would not leave due to the vow, would you want the marriage to continue? That is why vows mean nothing, they cannot gaurantee feelings, and it is the feelings that we want, and that keep us married, or working on marriage.<P>Lupo...I feel sorry for you if this is truly the state you are in. <P>snl...are you being emotionally honest, do you truly feel sorry for me?<P>lupo...If you and your BS cannot get to the point where you are working to restore LOVE into your M, but are only STANDING on and PRESSURING the other to remain in the M because "you took vows you would" - then by all means, I AGREE with you! You ought not to stay! The feelings are there, because YOU BOTH WORK TO KEEP THEM THERE FOR THE OTHER.<P>snl...I agree, and I have found my wifes response confusing, somedays it is leave, other days it is stay, and often is it is vows you promised me. She does not fully comprehend what this does to me.<P>lupo...I guess this was what would be called an "AHA!" moment for me, cause this is where my H is right now. He believed whole-heartedly that I DID NOT work at our M, that I was just trusting that since we had "taken vows" we should just always be together, no matter how miserable either (or both) of us was or was making the other. I have since learned otherwise. Two people must work together to make a M a happy one for both. It CAN be brought back together by one, as taught on this forum, BUT it cannot stay together by only one. Both have to commit to making it healthy again (maybe more healthy than it has ever been).<P>snl...yep, but I would add, each must freely choose each other, and not just with the mind, there must be something special in the heart too, and that is the scarey painful part. It must be both, will not work just cause one wants it so bad.<P>I had to read hard and long to NOT believe that S_N_L was NOT MY H!!! If Thinker had not surfaced, I would've still believed he was my H. He is in exactly the same place. I see that in S_N_L's words. I hope I don't sound like "Thinker" when my H comes here and posts. I think she needs to work a little more on the principles taught.<P>snl...it is interesting (and a bit disconcerting) to recognize ourselves and spouses in others, I mean aren't we all unique, isn't my love the special one of the ages? On the other hand if there is only a small finite set of behaviours and personalities, it gives hope that a set of solutions can be found and applied to all. For me, it was almost um..... embarrassing to read and hear the things other ws say, and see myself, don't know what to make of it. <P>lupo...Sorry, Thinker, but I think you AND S_N_L are continuing to "push each other's buttons" and I don't see changes in your methods of relating to each other. WIthout that, your H doesn't see a reason to stay, and quite frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.<P>Flame away, folks. I'm learning too.<P>snl...here is a match, might burn your pinky if ya hold it long enuf, is the best I can do. If you want real flames go to one of the affair support boards, and tell em they are all from the mothership, might get ya some action.<P>

This is S_n_l wife. Just a note to say, I have been thinking about what you all had to say. Husband told me he didn't mind me being on the board, I will not post much. Yes I have not done well with Plan A, yes I sometimes make being here difficult. There are many things you don't realize about our life. Won't go into it, but has a lot to do with our troubles. <P>One positive is H and his mother are talking civilized. Asked H if it made him feel good, agreed. Not saying they are friends, but civilized. Made it a special moment for myself, hate confrontation.<P>H enjoys dealing with points of discussion. I feel he would of been a good corporate lawyer. Except for his disorganizational skills, maybe a good secretary could of supplied that. He has good research skills, and thinks through problems with great skill. One of the things I do not like, is he trys to solve my problems, I would like him to talk and show sympathy and concern, and sometimes solve, but not all the time. Caring and protecting are needed 75% of the time.<P>I got blasted tonight by H with anger and name calling. Over conversation of OW and his feelings. He did apologize later, but I am not able to take much more. Maybe things will start to turn around when he gets rid of the OW. I could feel this morning when I said good morning to him, that he was not in a good mood. Talking to him on the phone he was sort of rude, giving service calls to him. He was not normal. I have a good sense with his moods. H might have felt bad today, it would of been nice if he would of expressed it and I would of just taken a back seat. I have to interact him on a daily basis with service calls, paperwork, phones, and etc.<P>We talked tonight about who will leave in 2 weeks. Jennifer Harley and I talked this past Thursday about doing Plan B, if H did not get rid of the OW. H and I agreed that it would be best if I leave, I will hate leaving the kids and interactions of the household. Having the animals and his mother next door. She and I have become great friends. She gives me the most loving cards, cards that express how she loves me as a daughter-in-law, and always puts love in them, and I know she means it from the depth of her heart. <P>I do love my husband, I know he states that he feels I don't. But the love is there. I feel he will not be satisfied with any relationship until he has found out if this OW is meant for him or not. I am totally confused about this affair, our relationship (what there is), and the act of living with a man with another woman on the side. My husband loves the OW, and I don't know if he will ever love me. (It hurts). <P>As he left to go to bed, he says we will have a more fruitful conversation tomorrow. He ends up sleeping during our conversations, so I just sit and read or do whatever until he wakes up. Anyways, his last comment before he left was you don't realize what you trigger in me and you don't seem to care. No comment made by me, because it was not worth a comment. <P>I care, and asked him what I said to trigger an irrational, irate, balistic reaction from him. Like when I caught him talking to the OW on the cellphone when I went to his bed to tell him about our 17 year old son coming in beyond the curfew set. I don't know what I do, maybe just being me, just walking into his view, just to see my face reminds him of the worst days of his life, I don't know. <P>All I know is that if he is truly very unhappy, we need to separate. If he does not want to give this marriage a good hearty try, then that means separation. I feel we would have a good marriage and a very loving relationship if we both put our feet on the path the Harleys have and work, work, work, with our hearts. Mine will be there to do it, but I am not sure my H has the same feelings. He stated a comment tonight that makes me unsure.<P>What do you think of WS paying the OP cell phone bill? Just <BR>a question that I would like info on. Do any other BS know if there WS is paying the OP cell phone bill? How did they find out the amount? Curious.

Thinker and SnL...<P>I find it interesting that someone so *pragmatic* and given to *research and understanding* can be so unemotional in one part of his life, and yet so volatile and confrontational in another?? It boggles the mind that SnL can talk about not loving his W, and yet be *in love* with another woman. I think the attacks, name calling and blaming are totally emotional reactions, and then the apolology comes...it that the pragmatist or the emotional connection still being employed by the heart? My gut instinct tells me there is more inside SnL than he even realizes or wants to admit, but that would just be my opinion. He enjoys the philosophical approach to life, but yet often reacts from an emotional basis. It is no wonder there are so many underlying questions in Thinkers mind, as well as SnL's. I hope he can truly come to the root of the problems, as I do not believe he has yet realized what they are. Without true realizations of cause and effect, there can be no real solutions to the problems facing you. <P>*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*<P>Trueheart

Just wanted to note that LOVE is a decision that we make. Love does involve our mind because we have to choose to love at times when we don't FEEL love. We choose to love because we know that we were sane when we decided to marry the person we pledged our lives to.<P>Feelings are fickle and they do change which is why we cannot afford to base our decisions on feelings. We have choices to make in life. It's not about changing as much as it is about choices, because change is inevitable, and through all the changes in life, we have choices to make.<P>We can start doing anything we want to do and we can stop doing anything we want to stop doing. We are in control. We don't eat out of the gutter, right? So we are in control.<P>Some say that marriage is just a piece of paper, well so is a 20 dollar bill, it's just according to your values. A person is only as good as their word. If your word (VOW/PROMISE) is no good, what good are you--meaning where is your character?<P>I'm not saying that I'm perfect, we are all projects in work. I'm just saying this to address the question of what meaning is a vow. There is a place in the bible that says it is better not to make a vow rather than to make a vow before God and not keep it. When we exchanged marital vows, we made promises. <P>Our word is all we have. "Confidence in an unfaithful man in time of trouble is like a broken tooth and a foot out of joint..." I have been told that if we give our word, we should keep it or at least die trying to keep it--that's the definition of character.<P>When we don't know better but we learn better, hopefully we then DO better...

You have read S_n_l posts. His Vows were not made for keeps. I am a christian, still am. We married in the church of God. I have always been going to church, since a child. When husband dated me I was with a group of young woman in christian teachings. Called the Navigators. I know I made my vows for keeps, plus I do love my husband. He states in the posts here, that he loves the OW, and does not love me, never loved me. He feels that I never loved him and will not ever love him, only needs him and use him. How is one to deal with this hurt. The hurt is so deep to my soul. God knows deep inside what I feel. God knows what my H did and the OW did are totally sinful. <P>When you talk about christianity to my H, I really do not know what his beliefs are anymore. I try to tell myself he is in a deep FOG, but it still hurts. I married this man because of his christian beliefs that he wanted christ in his life and act according to Gods will. <P>I married this man because of his intelligence, he was a strong man not a submissive man, he was a lot of fun being with, we had a lot in common in our beliefs and ways of life, he was active outdoors, he enjoyed life and looked forward to having a family, he enjoyed his family, he had few friends, but with my friends we had more. I married this man because I totally loved him and wanted to care for him and be his friend and lover. God was with us all the way and I look at God everyday. I talk with God every day and I feel that God has placed me in situations to find out more about my H affair. My H has even stated, why were you there at that time? I told him many times, I just get this notion to be somewhere, and I find my H doing something unfaithful. Explain that to him. I can't, except for the power of God.<P>

More thoughts about this situation: I requote what was written (if anyone is still interested):<P><B>He's talking about EMOTIONS. (I THINK) He's saying that IF you need to feel "loved" and you don't feel it in your marriage, you stray! And he did. And now he still feels "out of love with his W" and doesn't know why everyone is trying to make him feel bad about it.<BR>Am I getting close, S_N_L? <P>snl....pretty close.<BR>I cannot function right if I don't know where I am at. That is why my marriage to terry has been so damaging, I never knew where I was with her, and it is part of why I want so desperately to get away.</B><P>This is the honesty (and misery)coming out right here. S_N_L and Thinker have been yanking each other by the emotional hair for so long, they don't even realize they are doing it any more.<P><BR><B>Lupo...I feel sorry for you if this is truly the state you are in. <P>snl...are you being emotionally honest, do you truly feel sorry for me?</B><P>Yes, I truly do. I feel sorry for both of you. You continue to make each other UNhappy, as this seems to be the only way you both know to relate to each other any more. Neither seems to know how to break out of this rut. <P><B>snl...I agree, and I have found my wifes response confusing, somedays it is leave, other days it is stay, and often is it is vows you promised me. She does not fully comprehend what this does to me.</B><BR>Another glimpse into S_N_L's psyche...he's AFRAID!! He doesn't trust his W to NOT hurt him again! She has not made him feel SAFE enough to "come home" emotionally. Understandable, since they are still relating to each other with the OLD tapes. Nothing new seems to be going on here.<P><B>snl...yep, but I would add, each must freely choose each other, and not just with the mind, there must be something special in the heart too, and that is the scarey painful part. It must be both, will not work just cause one wants it so bad.</B><P>OK, so here's a problem...BINthere...YOU said "Love is a choice..." so I guess MY question, and maybe the question S_N_L wants answered is: "Then why doesn't he have the right to CHOOSE to go be with OW if that is how he FEELS?" A valid question by one who is "feeling" loved by that OP and feels like he "Chose" to be loved by that OP and gave up his ability to "choose" to love his W?<P><B>snl...it is interesting (and a bit disconcerting) to recognize ourselves and spouses in others, I mean aren't we all unique, isn't my love the special one of the ages? On the other hand if there is only a small finite set of behaviours and personalities, it gives hope that a set of solutions can be found and applied to all. For me, it was almost um..... embarrassing to read and hear the things other ws say, and see myself, don't know what to make of it.</B><BR>I think that's the beauty of the MB material. There IS a finite set of behaviors which can and DO make a difference in our lives, our relationships with others. Many of us never learn the truly important ones, we just bungle through life bouncing off of one relationship or another, and blame all others for their failures to develop. (Not necessarily marital relationships, either, ALL relationships) <P>More food for thought.<BR>Lupo<P>

Lupo, what you said makes sense. I know I have done thngs to push my husband away. I have tried to hide the depression and saddness in me. Some days I am quite successful, but some days are difficult.<P>Why does the WS feel that they can throw out ugly hurtful words to the BS? This happened just a few days ago. The anger in H was balistic again. I just started crying and wanting to be away from him immediately, run for my life. He is not the man I married, he is not caring to his W, he is caring and protective to the OW, he acts unstable. Jennifer told me he is sick like someone on heroin. He needs his fix. But to hear my husband talk, he is not in a fog and is thinking very clearly. I have delt with mental conditions in the health field. He does act scizo and it bothers me that maybe he is mentally affected. <P>We both need to sit down and do the EN list. Even though they are not to be met yet. Jennifer basically has us just being caring and thoughtful to each other at this time. H is still talking to the OW. But she said nothing else, and till we move off of block 1 and onto the path. <P>Like my husband said and the movie AI. There will come a time when humans (made up humans) will not feel love, caring, emotions, etc. Then there will be no more divorce, no marriage, no children, no nothing. Won't life be boring and dull. No food to eat no water to drink, no toilets to flush, no baths, no perspiration, no temperatures, no illness, etc. Everyone will be just a # and nothing else. I don't want to live like that, I want my husband as #1 in my life and forever.

I have been reading all the posts in this thread. I see so much hurt continuing, but luckily, I also see those that have healing happening well underway.<P>As for the original question posed by trueheart. I am the BS. It has now been 10 months since D-Day (PA and EA), a year since I first began suspecting something and about 4 years since our loving, close, happy together relationship began changing. (married 19 years this coming July 16.) What has kept me trying? So many things. <P>1) The main thing has been my love for him, the years of an unsually close and loving relationship, and yes, making the conscious CHOICE to try and keep that love alive in my heart, against all odds. The desire to "stick by" the man I love through this as I have with other types of tough times life has occassionally thrown us. (Only difference, the other times, I knew the battle was "together" and with love and trust on both sides.)<P>2) The COMMITMENT I made when I freely made those vows in our church, under the watchful eyes of God. (even though in my religious beliefs, he made those vows null and void when he committed A and I do not have to be held to them.) They are still Sacred to me. That includes doing by best (though I falter at times) to stand by him in this difficult time of trying to find himself, faith struggles, and depression that leaves him feeling, in his own words, disconnected with everyone and alone. I keep trying to have the patience to "wait for my time" to come.<P>3) We have a 16 year old daughter we both love (although she has expressed to me not "feeling" loved by him in quite sometime because of the personality changes he has and is going through.)<P>4) Yes, the thought of failure is a motivator. I had one marriage fail. But it was totally different. I was only 17 when we married. He never actually loved me and ran around on me more times than I could count both before and after we married. Those times hurt but cannot compare in scope and depth to this one. Compare a paper cut to major heart surgery and you have an inkling!<P>5) He was honestly repentant and so giving the first few days after D-Day, even though he did slip back into the "twilight zone" that has become more the norm for him both before, during and after the A. (A Pod Person maybe????)<P>6) He has had times of the "light" going on and was able to (unconsciously I hope and try to believe) reel me back in, giving me hope. Just when I reach a point of quitting, or of moving on to Plan B, he has a breakthrough, very emotional and suddenly. I would find the strength (I guess that's what you would call it) to keep trying to Plan A, and to show my love and support for him. It's just that those times have so far only lasted for a couple of days at the most.<P>7) Guilt has also been a motivator. I have fallen into the hole so much of the time of taking the blame on myself, justifying his actions in my mind, on my own behaviors. I know that I definitely did, without realizing it, contribute to the atmosphere that was conducive to his having the A. <P>We began having financial troubles, job related problems, etc. I even changed jobs hoping to improve it but I went from the frying pan into the fire. I was so stressed, felt changes in our relationship, both withdrawing some. I did neglect him but I also felt neglected by him. I went into a full-blown depression that lasted for over a year, and I am not at all prone to depression. He, however has had bouts of depression his whole life. When I would try to peek out and reach out to discuss "us" and how I felt, he would just get angry, pushing me back into hiding, which pushed him further away. A vicious cycle. <P>We have been over and over this and may never find resolution. So many of our conversations return to this (it reached a point that the last time, I am afraid I did blow up big time over it. I yelled at him, which is not like me, saying "Your transgressions were so much bigger than mine, and I have forgiven you. But you just can't forgive me! I have accepted, admitted, repented for, done everything I can think of to make up for and asked you to forgive me for mine, but you just can't! I don't throw yours in your face but you always throw mine in my face saying 'but you..... !Why can't you forgive me!" He did come over to me and say "I am sorry for hurting you, for betraying you, so very sorry." <P>I do truly regret my neglect of him, of our relationship. Only time will tell if we can finally move on past this in his heart. I admit I have had times of great resentment that, even though I have stood by him when he has had long periods of difficult times, the one time in our marriage that I truly needed him to stand by me and help me for a length time, he couldn't. He "bailed." These times, though real, are not helpful.<P>Didn't mean to ramble. Maybe this gives you some insight into us BS that continue for so long.<P>God give us strength<BR>AFL<p>[This message has been edited by AFL (edited July 13, 2001).]