OMG!!! Serious help needed! (was: Not going to be a good night - please pray for us)

H is coming round tonight to tell all. I guess his guilt after years of lies is eating him up inside. Keeps sending me texts saying that he's confused and mixed up but needs to get it all out on the table rather than have it mulling around in his head. He's on his way over and I've already been given a "heads up" from mutual friends about what he may say. PA will likely be confirmed (as if I didn't know it was a PA already) and also the REAL length of his A will be revealed. In other words, it's been going on a lot longer than he originally admitted.Funnily enough, I'm okay. I've known all this deep down in my heart. I've had and trusted my gut instincts for months now, so none of this will come as a shock to me. He doesn't know that I know what he's going to tell me. Just keeps sending me texts saying he's scared and confused. I've assured him it's safe and that I'm calm and really wanting to listen to him. His last text to me said that I will be "shocked and even pleasantly surprised" by what he's going to tell me. Not sure how I can be pleasantly surprised by hearing from the horses mouth that his A is physical and has been going on pretty much since about a month after we got married. But we'll see. So pray for us, please. We really need it tonight. I'm going to be calm and listen to him. I'm only hoping this will open up some lines of communication that have needed to open up for many months now. Love,
VE[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: venusenvy ]

You have my best thoughts and wishes VE.
I always love reading your updates, and I'll
be especially interested tomorrow.Keep that wonderful Plan A hat on!

VE,I am here for you. I will say an extra prayer for you tonight and I hope that all goes well. Please keep your head held high and remember to be a safe place for him right now and listen carefully to everything he says. He may actually give you some valuable information on what he needs from you to feel safe. No matter what he says, do your best to keep your composure and not LB. I know you can do it. Hang in there. I will check in on you in the morning.Hugs to you
Sinking

Good Luck, Venus...you've done great so far. Your H's willingness to make you his confidante is a BIG step in the recovery process...congratulations on the progress you've made to get to this point thus far. Just remember that it's not over yet (is it ever?) and keep up the good work [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]

be strong, be careful.. it will be hard.. to hear it, be careful not to lb.. bite your tongue... have a plan on what you will do if you feel lb's coming.. it hurts to hear your h say these things.. mine told me more info just on the phone last night.. and I am obsessing over it today and wanting to know morel... but it hurts.. I am trying to be a safe person for him to talk to.. but I have not been completely, as it hurt me so much to hear what he really did... although it is less than I ever thought- and I mean so much more to him than ow...is the truth... that may be what your h is going to suprise you with, but you already know that too right, you're the wife.H

Hi Venus,You have my prayers. I trust you will handle everything he has to say in a Plan A calm type of way. Do your best to have no expectations. Please remember to not DISS OW in any manner or form, he can diss her all he wants, but don't agree, just listen. I believe he is coming clean now for a reason. It's time and he realizes this. Please just keep telling yourself that Marriage is a journey, not a destination. You'll be fine sweetie. I have so much faith in you.Best,
Jo

VE--Jo is right---He is coming clean for a reason...You have been very strong up to this point and you know you can do this. Yes, it will be hard, but look at it as a step forward...no matter what he tells you. Whatever he says and whatever you do, do not make any rash statements, decisions etc....give yourself time to mull over what he has to say...no matter what it is...I have faith in you, too.You can do this...Good luck E

Okay, Well pretty intense to say the least. It was short, but good.The "pleasantly surprised" bit was that he's dumping her. His words, not mine. I had to pause and cry for a minute after he said this. He sat and waited - I pulled myself together and listened.He then confirmed what I already knew - the A had been going from about a month after our wedding. He even brought her down to our house for a weekend and she sat in on our sofas befriending me whilst stabbing me in the back the whole time. I didn't know the A was going on at the time, but obviously, since Dday, I've put 2 and 2 together. Anyway, I'll just cliff note some of the things he said to me tonight;*He's been lying through his teeth and can't stand it anymore. He says this is why he's coming clean tonight. Can't stand his own lies. I told him I knew he'd been lying, which is why I stopped asking questions. He says he lied to protect my feelings. I said I understood why he lied, which is why I'm not *as* upset about it as I used to be. *He is definitely showing signs of remorse. Doesn't want me to tell anyone he's breaking up with OW because he's embarrassed and doesn't want all the "I-told-you-so's". I promised him I would keep quiet about it.*He says he feels weird coming to me for comfort. He said, "you're the person I vowed to honour and be commited to, and here I am complaining about my OW after I've betrayed you so badly." I reminded him that I took those vows, too. I told him that I meant it when I said "for better or for worse" and that it really couldn't get much worse than what I've been through for 6 months. I told him I was there to offer comfort and support whenever he needed it. *He said, "this probably wouldn't have happened if I had been happy." I agreed and said, "this probably wouldn't have happened if we had known how to communicate. We both made a lot of mistakes and put our marriage on auto-pilot. I'm not entirely surprised it did happen". * He said it's funny that everyone thinks his relationship with OW is all peaches and cream. He said they've been at each other's throats for a few months now. He even said something about how she can shout louder than me. (which I found funny). Looks like OW has turned into the LB Queen! Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, eh?Okay, now the clincher (as if all this wasn't enough!) He freaked out last night after a phone call he received from a friend. Basically this friend had found out that my H's A had been going on a lot longer than H admitted. Friend told H "if you don't tell Venus, I will. She deserves to know. Haven't you made her life bad enough?" H went into a nose dive after this call - started calling people and yelling and screaming. Then decided to drive to OW house. She, earlier, had sent him a text saying that she was going to bed because she was tired. Said that if he wanted to talk to her, he should do it now. H didn't respond, just drove 2 hours to her house. Well no surprises here....guess what he finds when he gets there? Yup. Another married man! She, of course, denied anything was going on and couldn't explain why, if she was going to bed, she hadn't made up the sofa bed for him. Apparently my H and OW fought all night and she's been ringing him on the phone all day today screaming and shouting and pleading with him not to leave her. Okay, let's reflect...1. He's showing remorse.
2. He is now the betrayed.
3. He admitted he's feeling how I must have felt and doesn't like it.
4. He's told me he's "dumping her" and has been thinking about his for quite some time.
5. He's thanked me for being there for him.So why do I feel so weird? Isn't this what I've wanted all along? I've not cried. I've not rejoiced. I'm just feeling rather neutral. Is that normal?Okay, you lot. It's time for you to jump in and give me your honest opinion. Fire away! I'm ready!Love,
VE

Hi venus,Wow, what a conversation! Everything sounds so hopeful. I suspect that you are feeling weird instead of elated because you are afraid to let down your guard, afraid to be too hopeful. It's been so hurtful for so long. But, it sounds good to me. I think you have great reason to hope. Just take things one step at a time. Don't expect too much too fast. I'm happy for you!Take care,
Estes

If his affair started one month into marriage then it was not about you or unmet needs. I mean you never really had a marriage if he started one month after the wedding.He really needs to get some counseling to figure out why he had the affair.

Wow! Wow!What can I say? So textbook in many ways... OP shows their colours in a big way...Of course, there's a lot of ground to cover... but the ideal situation appears to be when WS comes to their own realization that OP is BAD NEWS. The fantasy is dead.Another Plan A success story in the making? We'll all stay tuned!

Hi Venus ~Well...looks like it might be a step in the right direction...I think your lack of enthusiasm is realistic. However...a couple of things sprang to my mind. I notice that he came clean, basically to unburden himself, and because he was afraid of even worse pain if you found out the truth from his friend. I'm not saying this is totally wrong...I'm just pointing out that really his big gush of honesty was more about selfishness rather than a desire to to set things right...which leads me to my second thought....He told you that he was dumping the OW (we'll see) but I don't notice that he said he wants to return to your marriage.He may go back to the OW a couple of times before this is totally finished. And while breaking with the OW is a good start, commmittment to healing the marriage is something else altogether.But as a little "told ya so", I've been telling you that the affair was sliding down towards that death for awhile! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] LB Queen indeed!So...Venus...what do YOU need if your H wants to come back? I think you need to set down in your own mind, maybe in writing, a list of "must haves" before taking him back. How to approach him about those things will be a bit tricky - because it has to be done without making selfish demands. In my case, I was able to use Steve Harley - Steve laid out for my H exactly what was expected of a WS that wanted a marriage recovered. My H wasn't willing to do those things...which was a strong indicator that while my H was talking the talk...he wasn't walking the walk. It was 6 months later though that Steve's work with my h came to fruition, because when my H was ready to put his actions behind his words...he knew exactly what was expected and what he had to offer me.See...thats the trick...your H has to offer this stuff willingly...and you can't educate or demand! So I think, is that you need to be prepared to ask him, IF and when he asks to reconcile...what does he plan to do to rebuild your trust? At this point, in a perfect world, he will ask you for what you need from him. Hmmph. But that will depend on his levels of selfishness and fog.In the meantime, while focusing on making sure you have your needs clearly defined for yourself at least....keep up the detached distance. Don't get too many expectations and hopes. This roller coaster is only going to get harder and wilder. (((hugs)))

{{{{hugs}}}}}

I think BrambleRose is on the money.Again.Dan

VE,
Bramble Rose has some great advice. Take it!That numb, weird feeling? I think it's pretty normal...sort of like the calm before the storm. Recovery is going to be tough..there may be on and off contact, WS withdrawal..the whole gamut of stuff you read here...so get your strength ready..get your boundaries in place and welcome to the roller coaster.
T

I agree with KalGrl, this was not about unmet needs. Not by a longshot. Why in the hell did he marry you?After reading this, I am too mad at how he has treated you to even comment on this.

V, I am soooo proud of U [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ! You have been a good example of how to keep your cool and plan A. Keep up the good work. You will eventually get 'some control' back, after he is willing to show he is worth taking back. Respect yourself. L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Elad:
Whatever he says and whatever you do, do not make any rash statements, decisions etc....give yourself time to mull over what he has to say...no matter what it is...<hr></blockquote>VE--This is what I said yesterday and I still stand by it.I think your reaction is normal and you need some time to think.Set some parameters for yourself, now that you have the whole (maybe) story...Let's see if your H will now take some action...he's done pretty good on the talking side, but now he needs to DO some stuff----He needs to do some stuff for Venus!!! Take care...E

VE, It sounds like you handled things very well and some good things came out of this. You know that there are many problems between WH and OW and that even if things do not end with a clean break they are definately on the down hill slide fast. He did come to you because he thought that someone else would, but at least he felt that he could come to you. He could have let someone else do his dirty work. And he actually opened up to you. He could have just told you that the A started sooner than you thought and got defensive, but instead he opened up. I think that is a good sign.Now as to why you are not dancing on the table...I think you are just protecting your feelings and being realistic. The bad times are not all behind you just because he said these things to you and said that he was going to dump the OW. You have been here long enough to know that this is just the beginning of another chapter in your surviving an affair. I think as the BS, we spend so much time hearing from them that there is so little hope for the maariage that no matter how badly we want to save the marriage, in the back of our minds we believe there is no hope. So when we see some signs of true hope we are very untrusting of those signs. Hang in there and be there for him when he turns to you. I am so proud of you and how you have handled things so far; keep going!! Hopefully I will be joining you in this chapter soon. I am going home again this weekend, then I only have two more weeks out of town.I will keep praying for you.
Sinking

VEFirstly, I think you are doing really good .I felt compelled to respond to you since our situations in some ways are so similar.
My H had an affair 1 month after we were married, I had been with him for 7 years previously. I am also 32.My H and I are now in recovery after lots of false starts. D/Day was 12/01, 10 weeks after we were married. I was "lucky" , my H never moved out - but an EA contined for another 2 months after D/Day.I think the advice others have given you is excellent.Be prepared for continued roller- coaster ride and remember listen to actions rather than words - it is easy for WH to talk the talk especially if he has been dumped and is feeling guilty.For me and my H the key to our recovery was counselling.I was lucky that my H agreed to counselling even before A was completely finished. Because out marriage was so new I think it only added to the confusion, but it helped us- Understand what our vows meant and the differences between a long-term releationship and marriage (if you were anything like us - looking back we drifted into marriage rather than understanding the differences)
-Understand and explore the relationship we had and problem areas
-Examine if we really wanted to stay married. (For me this was a no brainer but for H especially at the beginning this was really what made him attend)
-Neutral ground made it much easier for us to both communicate honestly.We were also lucky to find a counsellor who at the beginning was extremely even handed (ie I thought she was giving me a hard time! - I look back now and she she was balanced!)I just wanted to share that with you - as I know it worked for us .Thinking of you.Pixie

Just curious about something...Why is the time between when someone married and when they had their affair so important? I've been with my SO for almost 9 years and we've never actually married, but yet I still had an affair due partially to unmet needs. I think it's important to consider how long a couple has been together, regardless of whether they've actually married.If they truly haven't even been TOGETHER for that long before marriage, then an affair is probably a rebound-effect acting out of unresolved issues in the previous relationship.I don't know...it just made me kinda laugh to think about it. I mean, if I got married today then technically I never would have had an affair while I was married [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

VE, I am hanging in there with you.... contact ended for my h about 6 weeks ago now I am thinking... almost anyway...My H now likes seeing me and being seperated... not really being there for me... if you know what I mean... but a lot more than the last 6 months... so it is better... i guess if I keep plan a he will want to come home... is it worth it? Prayers and hugs to you, it is still hard... but praise the lord they are ending.... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I am very happy for you...I am 33, married for 10 yrs... and mother of 2 boys... hugs, H

Towards,
I'll take a stab at time together vs length of marriage...Marriage includes the vows, it is a public and legal proclamation of committment & contract, which may also, according to beliefs, be a spiritual "oneness" before God.Being together is more like an agreement for now. As long as it works. Living together for a lengthy period of time, in some states, becomes a common-law marriage and the law assumes intent of committment.Emotionally the length of marriage or being together may not vary much, but the wedding ceremony is an identifiable moment when both people assent to the committment of marriage.

I have a young man who works for me, he lived with a woman for 2 years. He told me he viewed her as his wife, a ceremony wouldn't make any difference. So, high committment on his part at that point. The woman dumped him. He then said, "it wasn't like we were married or anything."

TowardsTheFutureYou wrote
_________________________________Why is the time between when someone married and when they had their affair so important? I've been with my SO for almost 9 years and we've never actually married, but yet I still had an affair due partially to unmet needs. I think it's important to consider how long a couple has been together, regardless of whether they've actually married.If they truly haven't even been TOGETHER for that long before marriage, then an affair is probably a rebound-effect acting out of unresolved issues in the previous relationship.I don't know...it just made me kinda laugh to think about it. I mean, if I got married today then technically I never would have had an affair while I was married ___________________________________________I agree with you that the time after being married is probably not a a factor in A it was unmet needs and opportunity.
But ...For us it was that we never really discussed the differences between a long - term relationship and marriage before A or saying "I do".So post A this really added to our confusion.I remember thinking, "How could this happen when H had only just(4 weeks) vowed never to do these things?"Taking the long view,the A has really given us a better M and we were able to correct so early on the mistakes we had made in our unmarried relationship so early in our marriage. It still has been a very painful path to tread!!Pixie

Actually, the whole not married thing really led to a good bit of my discontent, I think. I wanted to get married since girlhood...it's just one of those things that were always part of what I pictured for the future. He never wanted to, though...he always thought that getting married would "ruin" our relationship (HA HA!!). I never saw it that way, of course...I just saw it as never being "good enough" to bother with the trouble of marrying.Then I have my affair...and THEN I get the whole "I thought of you as a wife" treatment. Well, it would have been nice to let me know that, buddy [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I never had a say one way or the other...he didn't want to marry, so it wasn't even considered. I tried to tell myself that marriage wasn't important, that it didn't matter as long as we loved each other...but the whole "assumed exclusivity" bit made me feel...jypped, I guess. This isn't justification, so extinguish those blowtorches...this is just an examination of my discontent, not an excuse [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Is being married all that different from a long term non-married relationship? If it is, how so? If someone has been in a relationship as long as I have, is it worth even debating? It does still bother me that we never married...but when I ask myself why, I'm not sure. It's like all the practical reasons lean towards not getting married...but all of the emotional reasons lean towards it.Confusion sets in....gonna go wander off and bang my head on the padded wall of my cell now (in other words, it's break time at work [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] )[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]

Hey everyone,Just been sitting here since last night pondering over all this new information. Also been reading everyone's input and would like to thank you all for congratulating me on a job well-done as well as for your priceless advice. I couldn't have got this far without any of you. Take a bow!!!!So yeah, I've got a lot of things to think about now. I believe you're all right in that my "neutral" feelings are pretty much me protecting myself. I'm taking everything he said last night with a grain of salt. He's been lying for over a year - what's to stop him now? Then I think, why would he come to me and say he's dumping her if he didn't intend to? I mean, shouldn't I be the *last* person he would tell if he wasn't really sure he was going to end it? Then again, we are talking about an alien, aren't we? Who can understand their logic and language?Obviously, I haven't spoken to him today. I sent him a text saying that I hoped he was okay and I'm here for him.I was, indeed, a Plan A Goddess last night. I sat and listened while he talked about OW and all the things he hated about her. He said she's got serious issues, but he seemed a bit in the fog in relation to the fact she's seeing other MM - which I found interesting. I tried, in the best way I could, to explain that not only does she have a history of being an OW, but she is one *now* and will probably continue to be one for the rest of her life and why would he think he would be any different? Why would he think she would be faithful to him? I asked him if he trusted her and he said no. Interesting. Then he said, "you know I'm not a violent person. I would never hit anyone. But I'll tell you what...last night, I just wanted to hit her. I wanted to smack her so hard." He didn't, thank God; and I know he wouldn't. But that sort of tells you the state he was in. Our marriage was not discussed last night. I didn't bring up the subject of reconciliation, nor did he. Last night was about him and I was quite happy to keep it that way. I wasn't in the mood to bring a whole other element into it. But I do need to seriously sit down and think about what I will need for recovery, IF it comes to that. I honestly don't know how he's feeling about getting back together with me or even if he wants to. Good question I have to ask myself is, do I care? I sort of feel as though I've distanced myself from him so much that I'm not going to be *that* heartbroken if we don't reconcile. I think that sounds horrible, but I'm being honest, here. Do I love him? Yes, absolutely. Do I believe we can make it? Yes, yes and yes again. But do I want it, now, after so many months of bullsh*t? Have I been hurt and betrayed so much that I can't even be bothered anymore? I honestly don't know. These are the questions I'm asking myself today. I've got a therapy session tonight. Will definitely process through this. Still haven't cried. In fact, feeling better than I have in a while. Which I think is because I now have choices. I know I've had choices all along, but I feel sort of "free" in a way, now. Actually, I can't even explain it, so I'll just leave it at that. Thank you all again, from the bottom of my healing heart. You are such an amazing group of people - wish I could send you all chocolates and flowers! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Love,
VE

Hi VE,I think the reason you feel you have choices now is because you have been given a view thru a window into their (H & OWs) relationship, and see that it is NOT all peaches and cream. And you now know that OW is a definite "PlayAR", and possibly using your H for other than "in-love" reasons. But moreover, you know that your H is realizing this for himself. She's dissapointed him.Venus, Lora's H came back after 7 mos of separation (didn't live with OW). He stated he hated OW, wished ill upon her. He and OW had a real blow out and they got borderline physical during their break-up.So, not to put a negative spin on things for you, but just know that now Lora's H is still at home, after 10 mos, not in recovery, sitting around all day, day-dreaming and fantasizing about OW and what could have been. Lora's H agreed to her recovery terms, but did not follow thru. I'm sure at the time, Lora's H meant every word when agreeing to the Recovery terms, his intentions were honorable.My point is this, if you come to a decision that you do still want your marriage, please take it very slowly and methodically. If your H really wants the marriage, at some point he will be willing to go the distance and meet your recovery needs without waivering. I mean, ultimately isnt that what you would want from him? To "want" you above all others, to 'want" the marriage. My feelings on this are the WS, when truly ready for recovery, should not feel they've been put upon when the BS requests guidelines (needs) for recovery. JMHO ... Take your time with this, Venus. There's no reason to hurry in either direction. Time is on your side.Best to you,
Jo[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

When I heard you were sending out chocolate and flowers, I just had to jump in here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] After 8 months of false recovery, my H came clean and told me about yet another OW, before the one I already knew about. I also found out about continued contact with both of the OW's while I was working my butt off trying to be "Super Wife," and listening to him tell me how he loved me and wanted only me and was 100% committed to our marriage. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I was completely numb. Yes, I still loved him, but not in the intense, passionate "I can't bear to lose you" way that I felt after dday #1. I was overwhelmed with doubt about our future. Here's the part I really wanted to share with you: I keep a daily calendar on our bathroom vanity (part of my Plan-A-for-me attempt to start each day with a positive, uplifting thought). That night, I turned the page over to the next day. It read: "You can't begin a new life until you're finished with the old one." Even H believed that it was no concidence. We were--finally--going to have a genuine shot at that new life. As horrible and painful as it was to hear, we would have never been able to recover and heal if he hadn't come completely clean.I hope this proves to be the case for you, too. You do sound good. You will make it through this.[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Persevering ]

Okay, getting into an angry place now....really need to vent. Bear with me while I go through this.Turns out that OW physically abused my H on Tuesday night. Grabbed hold of his shoulders, ripped his skin with her nails and said "oh, look. There's skin under my nails. You better be bleeding" She then started throwing things around the house and kicked the TV over. He didn't tell me this last night. I've just heard it from my friend. H is over at their house as I type this. I can't believe this! If she lays another finger on him she will have not only me to answer to, but his entire family and all our friends as well. As if that wasn't enough to get me angry....She said she overheard H saying that he feels better that there are no more lies and everything is out in the open. Feels relieved. Feels better. Well that's just bloody great, isn't it? I really honestly had NO expectations, but now that I'm hearing he's over there having a great time and bragging about how great he feels to have all his lies lifted off his shoulders, I'm furious! So basically, he just handed all his baggage to me and said "here. hold this. Thanks. Bye." I am SOOOOOOOOOOO angry right now. God, someone stop me from calling him and shouting. From where I'm standing, it looks like he laid all this down and got everything off his chest to make himself feel better. He obviously didn't do it for me. Oh and NOW he's calling me by the name he used to call me when we were together (an abbreviation of my real name). First time he's done that since Dday. Told friends he noticed how changed I am and finally DOES trust it since I didn't blow up and freak out last night. Whatever. I mean, when he left here last night, he was an emotional wreck. I've been genuinly concerned about him. I knew he was going over to their house tonight and figured he would process all this and talk and get it off his chest and open up a bit. Turns out he's "feeling better and having a great time". Great. So I'll just stand here and hold all his baggage, shall I? I'll just sit back and let HIM feel better. This is the first time I've got really angry about this. Maybe it's a delayed reaction. I don't know. But I'm NOT in a good place. I'm fuming. I want to scream at him. I won't, but I know it would feel temporarily good.HELLOOOOOOO? God, I want to go over there and give her a piece of my mind. How dare she lay a finger on him! And now that I've typed all this up, I can't believe the flux of emotions going on. One minute I'm angry at him, the next I want to hurt her for hurting him. Protection and rejection. Not a good combination.I'm feeling better now that I've vented. I'm not going to do anything stupid, so don't worry. I really just needed to type it all up and have a long hard stare at it. Thanks.
VE

Good thing you came here to vent, smart move Venus.Yeah ... when it gets ugly between the OP and WS it REALLY gets UGLY!In my H's first A breakup, the OW was quite violent. She actually bit him in the chest, that was just one of the things she did .... pretty nuts, huh? Totally out there!But the thing is, when they have those type of emotions it does not mean they're done with one another, it only says they're fighting in an ugly violent way and they still have emotions for one another. You know that saying, the other side of love isn't hate, it's indifference. So Venus, process all that you know and do not react in any particular way to your H. You are still in reaction. Try to avoid him until then. And "YES", he did do that, he did unload his baggage with you, but it doesn't mean he was doing it to hurt you, he was doing it because it made him feel better, but not to intentionally hurt you.Be angry .. you have a right, it's been due. I was wondering when you would start to feel it. Being angry is not bad, it's only bad if you express it in an inappropriate way ... SO SPEW AWAY HERE ... cause we DO understand.Jo[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Hi VE ~I'm not surprised, I really really had the feeling that his honesty was more about selfishness than it was about healing your marriage.So. Just because he handed it to you doesn't mean you have to hold on to it. In fact...why not do a side step and just let his [censored] fall? Just becareful not to step in it! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Don't do ANYTHING for at least 24 hours.And (I wrote this long thing to you before and I never got around to retyping it darn it) it's time to start considering YOUR life.You've been hanging around in limbo land for a very long time. What do you need to do for you?I'm not just talking about plan B, although I think you need to seriously consider it, because right now, your plan A is becoming enabling...but also...Venus...this hanging around waiting for him to choose before you figure out your own life is not good.What do you need Venus? No mention of your marriage or your H allowed in that answer!(((hugs)))

Bramble, babe, you're absolutely right. Talked about this in therapy tonight, actually. What does VENUS need.I need my life back. Basically, I came over to this country 4 years ago to travel. Met my H and gave up a lot to be here with him. My family, my friends, everything that I knew and what was comfortable. A pretty brave step, if I do say so, but I did it with good faith and with love and happines in my heart.The past 4 years have been focused on us. Not healthy and since hindsight is 20/20 I can see where I went wrong. Won't bore you with the details. Basically, I'm not in a position to work in this country (waiting on my visa). After Dday, I wrote up a list of personal goals. Goals for ME. They are, in this order...1. Therapy. Sort myself out. Be a better person. Learn the hard lessons and change what I don't like.2. Get my driving license in this country.3. Get back into school and study something I love.I've done 2 out of 3. The last one is the one I'm having trouble with. Not only are there financial road blocks there, but major fears on my part, which I'm trying to work through and face. I'm getting there. Slowly. I'm taking steps. And I'm teaching myself things at home, which is good. So I am taking care of me. Yes, I've been in limbo but since last night I've felt a new sense of actually having a choice. In other words, I can chose whether or not I want my H back. I can chose where to go from here. The past 6 months have been all about waiting for him to either end his A, have it ended by OW or making something resembling a decision one way or the other. It seems that may be happening now. So I've now got a choice to continue on my M-saving crusade or leave it alone and sort myself out for MY future. I'm having a hard time doing both. Another thing I've realised tonight is that I'm allowed to take as long as I want in this. I probably can do both, but would prefer not to. Too much pressure and stress. I can very well say "I'm going to school. I'm going to get a degree of some sort." and put the M on the back burner. Maybe give it a little stir from time to time. But yeah, my therapist finally got me to admit that I need to be number 1 here. And that's the bottom line. I'm number 1. I'm my own priority. It's time I not only said that to myself but lived it, as well. Okay, so I did mention my H and M in that, but I'm sure you'll let me off just this once! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] big hugs to you, bramble. You really don't know how much I appreciate your advice. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] VE

VE, I think you're doing great. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] It's not fair that your H dumps all his baggage on you, and that you're left feeling angry and upset. But fairness is not important-- nothing about infidelity is fair. IMO, what's important is how you handle yourself. It sounds to me like you have been a "safe place" for your H. Even better, you talked with your counselor about your own personal goals. Keep working on yourself, as it will help give you the strength you need. BTW, I think you have already demonstrated a lot of strength.I think Jo made a good point about how ugly things can get between a WS and an OP. I was reminded of a post I read a few weeks ago about why relationships born from infidelity almost never succeed. Of all the reasons given, the one that made the most sense to me was the unreasonably high expectations in an A. In order to carry on an A, both partners usually adopt a very stressful, uncomfortable lifestyle. Often a WS gives up some of the best things in their life in order to pursue the A. Any WS with a conscience will feel tremendous guilt for hurting someone who loves them dearly. After making such a huge sacrifice, both partners in an A expect perfection from each other. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that it tears them apart when reality hits and they find that the A isn't the perfect love they had expected.It sounds like your H's fantasy world is caving in. He probably needs a ton of emotional support. It's not fair for him to ask you for that support, but you may be the best option he has right now. You shouldn't (IMO) feel obligated to be there for him, but I think you should be proud of everything you do to help him. It takes a strong person to be there for someone who doesn't deserve it. VE, I admire your strength.Hang in there, and please take good care of yourself!BP

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Met my H and gave up a lot to be here with him.<hr></blockquote>So....if your H never comes back OR if you choose to walk away....Are you going to stay there or come back to the US?Your list of three things is a start. What is it you love and want to study? <blockquote>quote:<hr>Yes, I've been in limbo but since last night I've felt a new sense of actually having a choice. In other words, I can chose whether or not I want my H back. <hr></blockquote>Well...you were in limbo because of your own choice. You have ALWAYS had a choice. <blockquote>quote:<hr>The past 6 months have been all about waiting for him to either end his A, have it ended by OW or making something resembling a decision one way or the other.<hr></blockquote>Or rather....the past 6 months have been all about your dodging responsiblity for your own life, by putting all the control and power into his hands ...Dodging responsiblity is much more comfortable than making decisions and choices. You see, if it all falls apart...it's the OTHER person's fault.This was a lesson I had a really really hard time with. Hours and hours of weeping and gnashing of teeth transpired with my sponsor before I "got it" and started taking charge of what was mine. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Another thing I've realised tonight is that I'm allowed to take as long as I want in this.<hr></blockquote>Yep. It's your life and no one else can choose or force you to do anything but what you choose to do. And it's true, it takes as long as it takes. I for one am a slow learner. It took me quite awhile! So...you don't have to make decisions based on what anyone else thinks...but don't use it as yet another excuse to avoid responsiblity! <blockquote>quote:<hr>I'm number 1. I'm my own priority. It's time I not only said that to myself but lived it, as well. <hr></blockquote>Woohoo!! Methinks the lady is "getting it"!but let's go back to this: <blockquote>quote:<hr>So I've now got a choice to continue on my M-saving crusade or leave it alone and sort myself out for MY future. I'm having a hard time doing both.<hr></blockquote>Yes...but here's a thought. You've DONE your side of things. I don't think anyone on this board will say that your Plan A hasn't been fantastic (aside from the relationship talk!). And I think you did well with your apology.You have taken responsiblity for your part of the marriage and demonstrated to yourself, to your H and to anyone else who is interested that YOU are a valuable spouse and a human being.So...what I am trying to say is...Plan A is pretty much complete! To continue on your course any more is really to enable your H - I really don't think you should be his comfortable ear about his OW - at least NOT while there is no committment to recovery.You can be SAFE without being comfortable. Does that make sense? SAFE does not mean you don't have boundaries about what you are willing to listen to. His crying about his OW to you is what I call emotional abuse. Safe means that you don't have outbursts and you treat him respectfully. But it doesn't mean you have to put up with HIS disrespect.It takes 2 to have a marriage. You've DONE your part. Now really it is his turn. And to demand that he do that, on your timeline, isn't possible. He has a choice too, and right now he is choosing to remain running back and forth between the two of you. He isn't confused. He's COMFORTABLE.Look at who he is today. Not who he was, or who you think he MIGHT be one day. Do you want this in your life?Just realize, that there isn't a RIGHT answer to that question. Just YOUR right answer, and that could change...and that's ok.As you start to become more healthy, I think you'll start making healthier choices.I think you are way past high time to consider Plan B.[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]

Venus,What were your thoughts on doing a 180 like Carol did? To me, it has seemed like an ideal plan for the past month. As it is now, he is only talking about dumping the OW because of HER actions, *NOT* because he has decided it is over, it is wrong or has chosen you. I just think that if he comes back it has to be because he realizes what he did was wrong and because he wants you. NOT because he can't have or endure the OW.You talked about your financial situation once and your dependence on him. Is that why you are reluctant to do an 180?

Ah hah - MelodyLane hit upon an EXCELLENT point!What are your fears Venus?It often helps to journal fears and talk about them with others, no matter how irrational. Fears lose their scare factor when we bring a little friendship and daylight to the table...Once you address the fears, your choices will be far more clear.

Wow, when the rollercoaster dip...it really dips!Well, VE..I still love your posts. And I think you've done some really good things for yourself. You have a lot to be proud of.I think a little detachment might help you keep your focus on controlling your life...however...Many WS come back for a million wrong reasons..the kids, financial, not sure what they want, maybe it will work out...you've heard them...most of these reasons sound like a fine idea..when you're foggy. Everyone of us would love to have our mates say "I'm back because I've been a complete idiot, I can't live without you and want to spend the reast of my life making it all up to you and showering you with love." Raise your hands if that's what you got.Truth of the matter is most WS seemed to be in La-la land for the first couple of months...which is why it is so important for you to have a good sense of exactly what your boundaries, strengths, weaknesses and expectations are.And there is no hurry. We all wanted them home as soon as possible, but across the board I'll bet most of us, in retrospect wished we had made our expectations just a tad clearer before opening the door and unpacking the suitcases.So, take your time. Continue to listen and be his friend..but hold something in reserve for yourself.
T
T

I used the little guy with the sun glasses because it is time to sit back as far as you WH is concerned and play it cool. You know that things are falling apart rapidly over on the other side of the fence. Now is the time to move away from the fence. Don't look over there to see what is going on. Don't even peek. And absolutely don't ask. Get as far away from the fence as you can. Until things are completely over with them you will only be hurt by all the back and forth. Now is the time to look out for you. Let him deal with his issues with her. He brought her into your lives, he has to be the one to get her out of your lives. I wasted so much time trying to figure a way to get rid of the OW that I lost track of me. It was when I realized that WH had to get her out of our lives that I started taking care of me. And I really like me right now.I will be out of here until Monday since I am going home for the weekend (wish me luck). I will check in again on Monday. Take care of you and hang in there. You are doing great. Things are starting to fall your way even if you can't see it yet.Hugs to you.
Sinking

Hi again everyone. Thanks so much for all your support. It really is amazing and wonderful and I'm so in awe of all your advice and caring. This place is such a God-send!I'm still mulling over all this new information. I'm still no closer to deciding what I want to do in regards to my M, but I'm okay with that and am going to take all the time I want.I have realised that I seriously began to detach myself from my H *and* my M a few weeks ago. I think it had been coming very slowly for a long time and happened without me realising it. I was thinking yesterday about H going up to OW's house to, supposedly, break it off with her - then thought there's a possibility that they could *not* break up and my honest reaction was "so what?". I feel so ambivalent - after months of pain and anguish and tears, I really feel such a "lift" of emotions off my shoulders. I feel lighter and freer. Don't know if that makes any sense or not, but there you go.And the bottom line is this - My H has been having an A since about a month or two after we got married. She was in our house, pretending to be my friend. And he had the nerve to bring her there knowing full well that I would be devastated and yet there they both were in our house, pretending to be "just friends" and all the while they were shagging behind my back. Does it get anymore disrespectful? I mean, how many husbands have the b*lls to bring their mistresses into the home and introduce them to their wives and friends? What kind of person would do that?So now it's making me wonder what kind of person my H really is? Maybe I never really knew him at all. You would think, after 4 years, you would know a person, but I'm seeing the big picture now and wondering if I should even be married to someone who is so confident in their blatant deception. Someone who is so capable of hurting someone they claim to love. H sent me a txt msg on Friday asking if I sent his mother flowers for Mothers Day (it's today over here in the UK). I had to laugh - replied no and that I thought I would leave that up to him. (I did send her a card, though, signing only my name). He replied, "fair enough. How are you? Thank you for being you." My response was "I'm fine and you're welcome."And I've left it at that. You are right - he's got his own cr*p to deal with right now. I don't have to own it, and quite frankly don't even want to think about. I'm not going to contact him and I'm going to keep a huge distance between myself and what he's doing at the moment. I've even thought of a modified Plan B. Just going No Contact until I can figure out my head and what I want. We shall see.Thank you all again. My thoughts are with you all and I can't even begin to express my gratitude for your helping me get where I am today. ((((((hugs)))))))
VE

Aaaah . . . you are getting it! Acceptance.You've reached a spot where Plan B is not about a last ditch fearful desperate attempt to manipulate - or a frightening end to your life.Plan B is about you too. We BSes have choices too, and Plan B is about taking care of us, when our spouses so clearly demonstrate that they will continue their destructive paths thru our lives.You are right, THIS is who your H is, at least for today. And you can only deal with what IS, not with what MIGHT be or what COULD be.One day, it just 'clicked' for me. I woke up, and realized that my life wasn't over without my H, and that I had been alone my entire 10 year marriage, and that I had survived just fine. I looked at my H and decided that I did not want to be married to THIS man. I had a right to be respected and to choose not to be mistreated gave me the power to finally step forward and get on with my life. Honestly, VE, it was at that point that personal recovery and healing started for me. Weird as it sounds, thats when I really figured out how to Plan A. When divorce loomed, my H made a decision to change what he needed to change to be in our marriage. And for those decisions, that he continues to make on a daily basis, I am most truely proud of him.But it was VERY possible that I would have been divorced and my marriage over. And I would have been just fine. You will be too.

Venus,
I'm sorry I wasn't here at the beginning of this, but I do have a small bit to share....about your H's "unburdening" of the truth. My H did the same, came clean....to me, to our children....it made me SICK to see the smile of contentment on his face, as if by telling the truth it absolved him of the behavior....Venus, my H came clean several times over the course of the last year...only problem was that each time it was because he'd gotten caught. Your H got caught by a friend...who was going to tell you....to me, it looked like he was trying to save his own skin! Venus, my H and I got divorced last Friday....want to know why? Because 3 weeks ago (2 weeks after my kids and I moved out of our home) my H calls me and says he's made the biggest mistake of his life...he says he loves me, wants to become friends again and try on the marriage eventually....he says he's trying to find a way to break it off with OW, but just can't figure out what her hold on him is....I listened for over an hour without saying a word...the only thing I'd agree to was not filing divorce...I told him if he wanted me, it was time to "WALK THE WALK" and quit just "TALKING THE TALK!" I'd been hearing various versions of all that crap before...got my hopes up, only to find out he was back with OW yet again. Well, over the course of the next 2 weeks, I found out that my H had joined a DART LEAGUE with OW (you know, the one he was TRYING to break up with; GIVE ME A BREAK)....then one night, our girls called him to say goodnight, like they always do....well he was at darts with OW....he said to our daughter "Julie, talk to LISA while I take my turn...." That did it for me...I was done...absolutely, finally, completely done. The next day I called our county to find out how I could file for divorce on my own (no attorneys)...I filled out all the forms, had my H come over the next day....we signed them, I filed them a week ago Friday, and 2 days ago...we were granted the divorce.Sorry to go on so long...I pray that your H isn't jacking you around...the bottom line for me is that my H has made no changes in his behaviors...he's still selfish, self-centered and a BIG TIME conflict avoider. I mean, people start and end relationships every day....if he truly loved me after the year of hell he'd just put me through, he COULD and WOULD have broken it off with OW.Love you and praying for you....Go back and print all of Bramble's responses....she's incredible...she should be a RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR in my opinion.PEACE!MOM