TOW site...just an observation - Marriage Builders® Forums

Went nosing through TOW site. Didn't post anything, just read to try and understand some more about infidelity.

www.gloryb.com for those who don't know what I'm talking about.

This isn't a rant/vent...just a sad observation. There was such a callous attitude by many of these individuals. They didn't care who they hurt. They just wanted what they wanted, when they wanted it. Boundaries meant nothing, committment meant nothing, trust was a debateable (sp??) notion. There didn't seem to be any insight or understanding into their own behaviours. All in all it was a depressing 'surf'. I hate it that there are people out there who so selfishly disregard other's feelings and focus solely on what's good for themselves.

I know I shouldn't get upset about this, but I do. Anyone else feel that way?

[ September 05, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]

I have gone to that site a few times myself. I always find myself getting so angry by what I see there. You are so right when you say they don't seem to care who they hurt as long as they get what they want. I find myself wondering what is wrong with these people, how could they be so heartless. They know what they are doing is wrong, I know that they are not alone, it takes two. I just don't understand a person who would have a relationship knowing that they are hurting a wife/husband at home.

They actually DON'T feel that what they are doing is wrong...because most feel that either it's only a matter of time before they're together (they think they're rescuing the MM from his horridly boring or evil wife) or they don't want anything but something on the side and see it as "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" kind of thing. Little do they know how much it really does hurt a marriage. I think you have to get your mindset in to a "me me me, I deserve this" kind of deal in order to knowingly pursue this type of relationship.

i've been over there also... i see the same thing over there that i see over here... pain... pain... pain...

oaktown...

I find many TOW, who are early in their affair with a MM, to be tediously shallow and short-sighted. ("I feel" "I feel" "I feel")

I find many TOW, who are late into their affair with a MM, to be addicted to their cycle of pain-joy-pain-joy. (Why is he waiting so long to divorce her? I love him so much, he's worth waiting for.)

I find many TOW to be gullible victims of their own denial .. who hold fantasy romantic relationship ideals above their own best interests ... as well as above their own moral code. (We are soulmates. We were meant to be together. His wife will be better off with someone else who is her soulmate)

The ones who bother me the most ... are the ones who assume that his kids will be better off with their father married to her .... that one makes me go for a walk muttering to myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I also remind myself that my H was a OM as well as a WH. If I get too angry at TOW ... I have to check myself and my motives .... cuz I forgave my WH .... and he is no better than the OW.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

At first, I was furious when I browsed over there. Then I decided that what they really need is prayers. If they actually live their whole life with no morals or decency, I'd hate to be them on the judgement day. Pure selfishness. The one who's sleeping with the priest is the most interesting of all. She actually said she knows her kids will accept him as their stepfather! But she's waiting for her sick husband to die first. How noble!

I know that they truly believe that what they are doing is ok...but it is such a twisted way of viewing the world that it can be shocking to many.
It is also bizarre to me that they believe the OP can never cheat on them because they knew up front the OP was married! What kinda thinkin' is that??? Have you ever come across something so bizarre that it was almost unbelieveable??? That is how I see this site! It's kinda like a carnival side show...'the lizard man' or 'the bearded lady' kind of thing...a gross aberation of the norm!

Why do any of you bother going to that site? You probably won't learn anything that you haven't already learned on here. A's are based on pure selfish emotional hunger. Why pour salt into that wound?

Besides... the A's aren't really the issues anyways. These OP's are merely just symptoms, not the causes of our marital problems.

JMHO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen

As I said, I wanted to learn more, both sides of the story. Education isn't always about what we want to hear. We learn from the ugly and bad things as well. I've learned a tremendous amount from the MB site...but, only one perspective. The other side offers another, very aberrant perspective. Or, look at this way...wasn't it Tsun Tsu who said something about knowing thine enemy?? MC has taught me that an A is just a symptom but...the more informed you are about an issue the better the choices you make are! I don't think I'm a glutton for punishment (maybe I am!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), I just like to clearly understand things.

[ September 05, 2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]

Re: Boundaries meant nothing, commitment meant nothing, trust was a debatable (sp??) notion.

Yep… until it applies to them. Then they expect boundaries, commitment and trust. Kind’a sad if you ask me.

Yes there is pain in both places. But the difference is that the pain is of their own making. They are in a situation of their own choosing. I have little sympathy for them.

Okay, (rant/vent) I'VE just spent an hour on the most depressing website of all time.... (TOW)

The reason I started posting here at MB is because of my best friend's affair.

She has said from day one of our friendship that talking about her alcoholic H is off limits. I mean, she said flat out that if I said anything about his extreme case that would be the end of our friendship.

So, fast forward 8 years. I get a phone call from her, and if any of you checked out the stories part of TOW, that's basically what I heard.

I, in fact, now hate the word "soul-mate"...

I never realized it, but an A hurts everyone involved. Family, friends, kids (probably the most)...

Well, if there's anything I am afraid of more than an A for my M, I can't think of it... My family of origin was ripped apart by an A, and so was my H's.

So, I've been here ever since, posting, and trying to make sense of life, marriage. Last I talked to her, she's moving in with new guy.

Lovely.

My last post about it, I was asking myself if I needed to do plan b with my own friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, thanks for linking the site, gave me an glimpse into something that I thought would be unfamiliar, but turns out I hear from my friend weekly. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Over and Out,
bbs

I've spent a little time over there myself. I think the biggest joke is that they actually have the nerve to ask for donations!

That being said, once in a while you will see someone actually giving good advice to a poster. It usually gets ignored completely, though.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
I also remind myself that my H was a OM as well as a WH. If I get too angry at TOW ... I have to check myself and my motives .... cuz I forgave my WH .... and he is no better than the OW.<hr /></blockquote>thank you pepperband... i could not agree with you more...

my husband asked me what i thought should happen to the om... how should he be delt with... i told my husband (and i stand by it) that whatever happens to him should happen to me too...

the om didn't have a gun to my head... i'm the one who had vows with my husband not the om... so whatever punishment he receives i think my own should be greater...

om/ow are human... they deserve forgiveness too...

oaktown...

[ September 06, 2002, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: oaktown ]

Yes, the WS and the OP deserve forgiveness. I don’t think anyone here would argue with that. Isn’t that what we are all here doing… learning to forgive, move on and have loving marriages. I do believe that there are hundreds of people here who have learned or are in the throws of learning this.

That is not the same as watching people in the middle of an affair purposely hurting others and then acting as through they are the victims. What people are talking about is what the OW on TOW are doing while they are in their affairs. That is totally different and very hard to watch. To read of someone plotting of how to break up a family and even get the children away from there mother is gut wrenching. That hurts me to my core. I do not have to like it. I don’t and I will speak up against it every chance I get just I would speak up against any harm I see anywhere. It is my moral responsibility.

It is not my place to forgive every WS/OP in the world. I have forgiven my husband and all of his OW. Forgiveness can only truly begin when a person realizes the error of their ways, repents and starts to make amends.

wow.... just had a look at the site for the first time. it's a fcuking parallel universe that's what it is.
I discover such a seductive egoistic logic in the posts I've read, along the line of "come on, you deserve better, dump her/him, win him/her over, screw the rest".
Pretty cruel, but then, that's the human race for you.

Nick the Sad Philosopher
(maybe "Nick the sad bsatard" would be more appropriate?)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Topie25
Member # 9885 posted September 05, 2002 11:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do any of you bother going to that site? You probably won't learn anything that you haven't already learned on here. A's are based on pure selfish emotional hunger. Why pour salt into that wound?

Besides... the A's aren't really the issues anyways. These OP's are merely just symptoms, not the causes of our marital problems. <hr /></blockquote>I agree with you Karen.........about pouring salt on an old wound, for those that haven't come to terms with their spouses affair. I also agree that the affair and the OP aren't the real issues, just symptoms.

For those that haven't come to terms with their spouses affair I would suggest staying away from TOW.

I post there on occasion. I followed a fellow MB'er here.

I have come to terms with my xWH's affair....not to say that some things that I read on TOW don't hurt....they do, but not to the point that they used to.

I think what the BS needs to remember that TOW on that site are NOT TOW in our particular cases.

I think that the BS also needs to remember that we do support a number of WS's on this site.......and there are also people on TOW that do not want to be in the position that they are in. That's why they are there.......which in turn is why we are here. There is not much difference between the one at TOW that doesn't want to be in that position....and the one that comes here.....they are posting the same thing...just at different sites. BUT...because they are posting on a site called TOW they are seen in a different light.

Yes....some of them are brutally honest about their views on affairs.....but that is not how EVERYONE feels about it.

Funny how we as BS's tend to demean TOW more than our own WS's......when our WS's are the ones that are hurting us more than anyone else.

TOW didn't put a gun to my H's head and MAKE him have an affair. IT was HIS choice to make....they share the choice of having the affair equally......but my H holds ALL the responsibility for hurting me.

I've also visited the TOW site just to see how these OPs feel about their actions because of the OWs's attitudes when my WH terminated his A. Obviously, they think that they're entitled to their relationship. They think that they're helping our WSs who are so miserable in their Ms. Of course, they're not happy with theirs either. It seems the common excuse is neglect on their partner's part. They tried their best to hold on to the relationship regardless of the heartache it causes. When my WH told them that he wanted to end the A, they insisted on continuing the relationship just "as friends", and when he refused they became indignant. One of them even became obnoxious when she found out that my WH had given me access to his e-mail account. Another one asked him to come to her first when he's ready to have an A again. Don't these people have any moral values, conscience or pride? I want to be able to forgive these OWs but I find it hard to do when they have these attitudes.

All I know is that every time I've gone there and read, it just triggers awful things for me...I don't think there's any insight to be had by hearing those stories. There doesn't seem to be much introspection into what they are doing, right & wrong, nothing like that...just how to hold on to the MM or MW, and the "unfairness" of it all...a major Hyper-Blue-Meanie trigger-generator!

Oaktown~

In my vivid imagination, I would dream up vicious revenge senarios to inflict shame and pain upon OW. Then, I would imagine the OW's H doing the exact same thing to shame and pain my WH. It kept me humble (well ... mostly humble LOL)

I wonder about this comment, however: "om/ow are human ... they deserve forgiveness too ...

I am not sure I would choose the word "deserve" ...To me, the word "deserve" implies something earned or owed. I don't think that forgiveness is earned ... it is a gift, pure and simple, a gift. But, semantics aside, forgivness is a good thing all around. For those giving and for those receiving. Forgiving someone who is not repentant and clearly not sorry for their wrongful deeds is beyond difficult ... nearly "too Godly" a tast to ask of us mere mortals.

Forgiving the unrepentant requires more faith than a newly betrayed spouse can muster (most of the time). It may be possible years later, when the wounds are not so fresh. Do not expect your BH to forgive the OM any time soon. He is not required to do so. But it is in your BH's best interest to do so.

Have a great day Oaktown.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ September 06, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

okay...okay...okay...

I could not resist checking out that site because I had a hard time believing that people would actually form a support system for immoral behavior. Some of them were claiming their right to be the "slut queen" based on how fast they jumped to do the deed with the OP!?!?!

Can you imagine Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy (if they were still living) forming the same type of forum so that they could compare notes????

Wow....really boggles the mind.

Thanks everyone for your insight and concurrence with me on this issue. I really do appreciate your support in the knowledge that the behaviour exhibted by WS and OP is cold, callous,selfish and delusional. I read each of your posts and all of you had something valuable to say! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Want to read up on cheater antics, which includes making fun of cheater sites like TOW? ScarletA makes fun of TOW and sites like it (ie, support sites for cheaters). MB is not one of those included as strikes me that posters here, generally, except for the cheaters who double-dip in both places, respect and want to honor their marriage vows. Incidentally, if fairydust reads this, please email me. I saw something you wrote that I thought was a hoot!

"Can you imagine Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy (if they were still living) forming the same type of forum so that they could compare notes????

Wow....really boggles the mind."

No, what really BOGGLES the MIND, is that you would somehow compare Serial Murderers, who commit lewd sex acts on children, then cannibalize them... to be in the same "league" with a single adult having a CONSENTUAL relationship with a married adult.

If you think those are simular moral crimes, committedandlovingit, then I think you should be.... COMMITTED that is. looney!

NO HUGS for YOU!, pffffffffft!, clarkie

(NOTE to Dac, This one sounds like a prime candidate for your looney bin)

((CLARKIE))

THIS... (Man, Son, Father, xBH, OM & xOM ) ........has never failed to crack me up!

What does this sig line say to you about you?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS ... this is NOT a "dig" (I don't do that)... but is, in fact, an honest question .

(((Pepperband)))! I always enjoy reading your posts & responses. I don't always agree, but I always know where your coming from, and that your words, and thoughts, are not closely "guarded", and come from the heart. There is a lot to be said for that.

(Man, Son, Father, xBH, OM & xOM ) was written to explain a little about who I am, who I have been, and as to where I am going? who knows. I don't know what it means to me. I'll think about it though, and if anything becomes obvious, Ill let ya know.
hugs, c

Pepper's *new sig line* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"woman, daughter, sister, mother, friend, neighbor, nurse practitioner, pain specialist, gardener, patriot, wife, BS, former slut, cat-owner, tortoise-owner, rabbit-owner, former dog-owner, former-crow-owner, former PAA stewardess, former waitress, former dancer, former red-head, former virgin, former agnostic, former parade goddess, former 1962 VW Bug owner, former poker player, lousy cook, and maker of amazingly stinky farts ......"

What do ya think Senor Clarkie? is this a "go" or a "no go"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Ya know, I think I have to agree with Clarkie (as much as it galls me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). There is no way you can compare infidelity to serial killers and pedophiles. That's a stretch.

Clarkie: I see that PB is keeping you in line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I'll leave you in her care!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Wait !

I decided this is better ...

lapsed-agnostic ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

For the love of God...

I in NO way said that they were like serial killers and pedophiles, no more than I said that MB was!! How can you read that into a mere statement? I simply imagined if that group (who had something in common with each other) were to get together.

Sheesh Clarkie....it must be due to a bit of angst...huh?

Why would you attack me on a personal level? It is really sad when a person cannot post a simple response here and not be totally flamed and now accused of insanity. All because of an opinion, no less. In a previous posts about "infidelity" I was flamed because I was not encouraging our local sheriff to haul them all off to jail. Now I am flamed because I used a DIFFERENT group of people in a statement. Is it due to the fact that YOU and your antics are less that honorable and moral . Which reminds me... Even if you offered up those hugs I would SO not be wanting them. Your signature line proves that you have been quite happy spreading them here and there with no selectivity.

I guess I need to remember to wear that little button badge on my lapel that assures people that I am "post worthy".

committed

P.S. After a little investigative work, it appears that clarkie might be the one with the problem. Not exactly welcome everywhere you go, are ya clarkie?

[ September 07, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

((Committed))

I'll give ya a hug!

How about a support group for auto-mechanics who cheat their customers? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your point was ... (as I understood it) ... that a support group that encourages immoral and/or cheating behavior (no matter what the behavior) ... is irrational because it does not elevate the human condition (as might a support group for the betterment of marriages, or the betterment of children, or the betterment of clean water )

If we apply support groups to endeavors that improve the human condition ... we would be a mighty people.

A support group for TOW to assist breaking away from an immoral situation might be a start.

I know what you mean ... or, at least I hope I do.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ September 07, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

PS ...

Clarkie,

Why DID you attack her (Committed) on a personal level? She did not attack YOU personally. Seems a bit strange.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

(((((Pepper))))

Can I get a witness???????

You were right on target....

~whew~

I am SO relieved!

committed

AMEN!

clarkie,

I understand why you jumped to the defensive, based on your sig line. Perhaps your past or present immoral activities don't rank up there with serial killers...at least I hope not. That wasn't the point committed was making.

The point is that creating a support site for ANY type of immoral behavior is ludicrous. Unfortunately, there are many such sites all over the web.

I'm sure your point of view is very interesting and possibly even helpful to many posters here. Please feel free to share your opinion, but please...lighten up on the attacks. Yikes!

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ September 07, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

sigh....... don't ya hate it when people don't "get" analogies? committedandlovingit never equated adultery to murder. The connecting parallel, that constitutes the analogy, was the celebration of immorality - and she used murder as the common denominator instead of adultery to emphasize her point. And she was right on in her point.

are there a lot of people from that website that lurk over here? I wonder why they are so interested.....

Seems to me that Clarkie is the moderator, or something like that of the TOW board. That could have something to do with his below the belt post, don't you think?

As I recall he shows up here on and off when TOW gets mentioned.

One of the sports on the TOW board is MB bashing. So they come here to get material. We entertain them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well ... this old Pepper-bird feels compassion for Clarkie .... He seems sorta lost. Clarkie, you're in my prayers kiddo.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Committedandlovingit: I apologize to you for jumping to the wrong conclusion about your analogy...I guess it helps to read thoroughly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . It's hard to always know where someone is coming from when communication is in text form. You have my humblest apologies.

Now for my other comment! It doesn't matter to me if member from TOW come here looking for fuel to justify their behaviour...'fill yer boots', I say. I sincerely hope that no one here would let that stop them from posting at MB and getting the advice/help they want.

Z... clarkie is no longer moderator there, but still a VERY protective member.

The problem w/ posts like this is that it causes flames and board 'wars.' Lurker from TOW sees this posts and starts a post on MB. Now posters from both sites are lurking back and forth and posting their OPINIONS of the posters and the forums.

We are who we are. They are who they are. Not all MBrs are the SAME. Not all TOW are the same. Generalizations only serve to further divide and promote misunderstandings.

MY opinion is that opinion about TOW is better left unposted. Don't make ourselves targets. Our best 'revenge' is to BE THE BEST we can be and to LIVE THE BEST we can... don't 'call' them out...

again, just my opinion.
Cali

committedandlovingit,

I do owe you an apology. I "heard" about this thread, and zipped through it. An analogy does not a comparision make, and even if that was your intention, I DO get it. My role as a BH was SSSOOOO long ago, D-day was post seperation, so I didn't go through much of what the normal BS goes through. Yet I do remember the pain and feelings of betrayal...but even then, they were for/directed towards my wife, not the OM.
I understand why some of you find it unbelieveable a site like TOW exists, all I can say is I am glad it does. Same with this site and many others.
Anyway, I'm sorry I insulted you. It was uncalled for...

Zorweb, FYI, I no longer moderate on TOW.

Pepper, Sometimes I'm lost, sometimes I'm found, sometimes I'm somewhere inbetween.

hugs all around, c
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

((( CLARKIE )))

It's Ok sweetie. Have a great day.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ September 08, 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Ah, Clarkie I did not know. Thanks for the update.

Z

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Dac
Junior Member
Member # 18125

posted September 06, 2002 01:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Want to read up on cheater antics, which includes making fun of cheater sites like TOW? ScarletA makes fun of TOW and sites like it (ie, support sites for cheaters). MB is not one of those included as strikes me that posters here, generally, except for the cheaters who double-dip in both places, respect and want to honor their marriage vows. <hr /></blockquote>This strikes me as odd.

IF in fact we were to visit a site like this....than we would also have to admit that we are making fun of our WS's.

Is this a healthy way to try to save your M?
I don't think it is.

I think the best thing to do would be to simply ignore everything that has nothing to do with your M and concentrate on yourself and your M.

In my personal opinion.....

Now that my xWH and I are doing very well....I have very little time to be on my computer. I would rather spend what time I can with my H and my family......and keep working on making it better..........no offense meant to anyone....or to this site itself....but those in recovery understand.

IF.....and this is a BIG IF....those of you at scarleta are not BS's or WS's.........then how do you find the time to post your antics.....and why do you waste your time? Why do you even bother.......or better yet....what is the purpose?

Seems so childish.

By the way....I've visited scarleta..........my 11 year old acts like more of an adult than most of the posters there.

I've yet to figure out why we as the BS can forgive our WS's.....the ones responsible for hurting us the most......and most of us never even consider forgiving the OP.

Now the question I will get is......."Have you forgiven the OW?"

I have forgiven her for her part in hurting me.......but have yet to forgive her OR my xWH for hurting my children......I'm working on that.

[ September 09, 2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

I think the TOW is selfish, and does not give a crap who they hurt as long as they get what they want. They too were probably hurt sometime in there life. They don't think twice about hurting children or the wife. Why do they listen to MM's problems anyway. Can't they understand every marriage has it's problems and the MM should straighten it out himself not by going with TOW. What does BS and WS mean anyway?

The TOW website is a sewer of humanity. It is where the most depraved in society celebrate the destruction of other people's marriages. An OW or OM are cockroaches seeking the crumbs at the table of someone else's life. yuck...

oops! double post!

[ November 06, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Goldie,

You said "Can't they understand every marriage has it's problems and the MM should straighten it out himself not by going with TOW? "

I think it is up to the MM (my H included) to be the one to understand that they should straighten it out themselves. OW's don't rape the MM's. We're talking about two CONSENTING adults participating in behavior that is hurtful to another. IMHO, both are to blame and the MP even more so for the betrayal to their spouse.

BS - Betrayed Spouse
WS - Wandering Spouse
MP - Married person

SS - Still Searching <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I can't believe my thread is back after 2 months!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'd really hate to see my thread 'jacked' to vent something really bitter. As time has passed I've realized we all can learn from one another. OP can learn that not all BS are nasty psycho's (as some are told by WS). BS's can learn that not all OP soulless(??sp) demons set to destroy a M.

MY FWH A happened due to problems within our M. Yes, my H chose to run away...call it temporary insanity, call it alien abduction. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What matters is we realized while we still had a chance, what an A means, why it happens and we can take steps to see it doesn't happen again. The OW in this situation is not part of the equation, never was. She was a symptom, not the problem and never the solution.

Ok, sure this was brought up for a reason, how/whatever it was i missed it before the posts were edited. Like I have said, I have worn ALL of the hats xcept for the WS one. For the most part I get it. hugs, c

Comment: Haven't been back around for a while, saw this topic is again fresh. Question was raised, why lampoon active cheaters, which could theoretically include WS? Because ScarletA makes a distinction between those who are actively cheating, happy about it, and aren't making steps to quit and those who with to repair damaged relationships. (And this ridiculing of TOW and other cheater support boards, which include some from a major women's site, doesn't include BS boards, as there's enough pain and sorrow from cheater's actions already. Doesn't wholesale leave off BS if the BS in question is now betrayed by the person he or she was cheating with-that is just desserts nor does it leave off BS if they are indistinguishable from an OP in their actions or comments). We think that those who are determined to act selfishly will do as they wish without regard to any disapprobation, so no point in attempting to talk any sense to someone not yet ready, if ever, to act responsibly; thus one can only spear the ridiculous justifications and situations that those cheating come up with. So that's what we do, read cheater boards and make comments, joke and vent. There are a few sections that include some rough language, based upon the rough language and vile situations described elsewhere, but those places are clearly warned about before reading.

If there is room on the internet for a site that applauds and supports the morally corrupt who wish to deceive, then there is also room for an alternate antithesis site that irreverently, judgementally, and politically incorrectly enjoys pointing out the corrupt and vile, and heaping scorn about cheater antics. That's what ScarletA does, and it is a narrow-minded fallacy to assume that BS are the only ones that are against cheating or would speak up about it; the majority of posters on ScarletA are not BS but people against cheating. Why read boards like TOW and comment on them? Because it's entertainment and a little like watching a train wreck, much like a daily cheap soap opera. Plus it's also a way to express disgust about cheater actions in a very open way. Suggesting as well that for those who are in a lot of pain due to the senseless antics of those cheaters, it may be painful to read jokes about them but if it's your cup of tea, you're welcome to join. But again, to be clear, ScarletA does not welcome posts from cheaters.

Dac,
Becareful playing God...

Yours is a shallow quest...and no good will ever come from plain riduculing and attacking others..
for we a all still responsible for our own behaviors and actions REGARDLESS of the actions of others.....

No good will ever come from destroying others with our words....for in the end it is our own souls that will have to answer for it...

ARK

Dac,

One thing I would like to point out, not all WS's are actively trying to repair the marriage or taking steps to quit the A. Lots of affairs are long term, and as long as the affair is going on, and contact is going on, then the WS's are just as much to blame (if not more so) as the OW's. It takes TWO.

I guess my POV is coming from the fact that as long as I demonized the OW and spent energy hating her, I was diverted from what should have been my true focus, my wandering spouse. He chased her and yes, she chose to participate. And if she had said "NO". Well, I truly believe my WS would have kept looking till someone said "yes". He liked affairs, and the excitement of the sex and the excitemnt of someone new. And he ain't alone. I should know. I certainly enjoyed my A for all the same reasons - in the beginning. And since I too was an OW at one point, I'm not in a position to throw stones.

Yes, H and I are both truly remorseful and in hindsight we realize the damage that the affairs caused to us and to our marriage and probably to the OP's. No one wins in these things.

I really hate nasty flaming posts that get personal, no matter what board they are on. You can disagree with post, without a personal attack on the POSTER.

SS

Wow! What a thread....

I too have lurked at TOW. I don't blame them for my WH... I don't even judge them for having a site of their own. BUT, I do see them constantly defending their position,,, they are truly convinced that they are the true "soulmate" of our WH's.. and that our H's are staying with us solely for children, financial, or moral reasons. They simply CANNOT accept that alot of MM truly LOVE their spouses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> They feel we 'trick' them into staying and make fun of us. They don't see why we're holding on to a cheater who doesn't even love us.. Yet if you read their site.. you'd be suprised at the methods they use to 'trick' our WH's out of NC! So who's playing games??

I have seen them rip apart any BS who dares to trust her spouse.. "Oh Right,, they ALL say that" And laugh at BSs for taking back a cheater.. ????? (who do they think they knowingly got involved with? Mr. Noble?? Oh right.. I forgot, theyr'e "special") I believe that there are some MP who truly are in bad marriages and for whatever reason may or may not divorce their spouse. I do not believe in the all or none theory. Their lack of tolerance and failure to the OUR side is what offends me. And it seems to me that the BSs who go there are ONLY welcome if they grovel and agree. JMHO. The TOWs cannot see that they are even in the equation of broken homes and destroyed marriages.. .they feel that their A with a MM is completely separate from the Marriage Relationship.. which, IMO is total BS (bullsh**)! They knowingly and willingly engage in a R with a MM.. when MY H got an OW, so did I. And the OW got a BS.. We became a 'threesome'-- apparently with everyone's knowledge but mine. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I don't post there, because I know I would immediately get flamed off of their board. If they ever decide to take responsibility for their actions,,If they could ever understand our side, then maybe I would be more willing to be more understanding of their side. However, I will not go to a board who takes joy in ridiculing a BS. It's Mean! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I don't ridicule them and would expect the same in return.

On that ScarletA Board.. OMG. I just checked it out. And I think it's childish and immature. I won't be going back to lurk on that board. I don't see how it could possibly benefit anyone.

P.S. Clarkie.. I read your posts on TOW too,, and I think you're cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ((Hugs))

For all of those that blame their spouse equally with the OP, ok, good for you. But if I may describe my OW with the same description as the poster 2 posts back describes their WH, then you'll see why I hold her as more of the "bad guy" in my situation. Immature of me, do I have blinders on? Maybe so. But she did just like the poster said their WH did, when my H ultimately said no (would not make the A sexual), she retried a time or two and then promptly went off to find her next victim. (Also a co-worker who's married with children). Am I supposed to forgive her? Am I supposed to not blame her? The way she initiated their first kiss was to ask him if she could steal a kiss. Yes he consented, but he had prior pulled back from her when she tried to kiss him. She just kept working on him, reeling him in. Was he to blame? Of course. Was I to blame? Yes. Was she to blame moreso? I choose to answer that question YES.

Let the flames come. After what I've been through I think I'm fire resistant if not totally fire proof.

[ November 07, 2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: jamup ]

I am as my name indicates "holding my breath" that my WS will realize I am the one he wants.

What gets me is that he and OW have emailed each other about how they completely trust each other....should never have secrets or lies with each other when they are finally able to be together, etc.

What do they think they are doing right now? Their whole relationship is based on lies and cheating....how can either one of them really trust one another and not lie to one another when they so easily do that to their mutual spouses.

And as I type this I think how will I trust my H again if he does choose to stay with me....I guess I deal with that when it happens and I do hope it will.

Just kind of ironic the things they write to each other about....

I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but I just don't understand the focus on the OW. Why do you care?

Does focus on her help the M? I just don't get it.

((Katie)) I'll try to explain:

Did you ever have something stolen from you? Long ago, my adorable'62 VW BUG was stolen ... and I kept thinking about the person who stole my car ... *my cute little car* that I really had sentimental value for ...."Why would that person do something SO AWFUL to me??? I would never do anything so awful to them even if I disliked that person"

Once someone has violated something that we see as "mine" ... that violator becomes an object of confusion and hurt .... "WHY DID YOU HURT ME? I WOULD NOT DO THIS TO YOU?"

Katie ... it's human nature ... part of the process for working it all out.

I virtually never think about OW anymore ... but I HAD to think about her to process the experience she helped bring upon me.

Take care ... and congrats on your anniversary!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ November 07, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

No you wouldn't "GET IT", no more than we would "GET" the mind of the OP! "Getting It" usually doesn't come until you have been in that persons shoes.

I guess this just all shakes out differently for diferent people.

It's not that nothing has ever been taken from me. Certainly it has. Once upon a time (what seems like a lifetime ago) I was in a long term relationship and engaged to a man. We had built a life together and had planned to marry. He left me for someone else. I just kept asking myself "what did I do?" Certainly I was heartbroken, but I never thought it was about the other person. I was trying to figure out what happened between us and why I didn't see it coming.

THis guy was the center of my universe (my first mistake) and then he was gone. I moved out of state to get over him. What's more, he spent the next 9 years of his life with this other person. In my mind it wasn't the OP's fault.

But that's just me. That's why I asked the question. I wasn't trying to be mean.

Katie,
The WS & OP make decisions in having their relationship. The BS doesn't have the choice for them to have an affair. It's a feeling of powerlessness, someone else--the WS & OP--change the BS's life, and not for the better.

Also, ususally the BS loves the WS, usually has no relationship with the OP. So the BS has no positive feelings for the OP to balance the negativity that betrayal elicits.

In order for a marriage to recover, the BS has to work through the negative feelings from the WS's betrayal & allow the love to be the primary emotion.

No similar process for the BS about the OP, other than forgiveness and no contact.

And, some OP are aggressive and blatant about the betrayal with the BS, ie stalking, hang-up calls, letters, emails, confrontations.

The OP does have a direct effect on the BS's way of life. The BS doesn't always affect, or even change, the OP's life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HoldingMyBreath:
I am as my name indicates "holding my breath" that my WS will realize I am the one he wants.

What gets me is that he and OW have emailed each other about how they completely trust each other....should never have secrets or lies with each other when they are finally able to be together, etc.

What do they think they are doing right now? Their whole relationship is based on lies and cheating....how can either one of them really trust one another and not lie to one another when they so easily do that to their mutual spouses.

And as I type this I think how will I trust my H again if he does choose to stay with me....I guess I deal with that when it happens and I do hope it will.

Just kind of ironic the things they write to each other about....<hr /></blockquote>

ark - dac is the owner of scarleta. That explains the long rambling post attempting to justify the sight.

BEWARE of Dac...She is really a fruit loop. I'm not kidding.....BEWARE

I like the folks on TOW. They are very intelligent and caring people. Many hurt, just like the BS's do. They made the mistake of developing feeling for a married person. The married person that will say, how crummy their marriage is, they're filing for divorce, they've filed for divorce..blah blah blah...They believed the cheater in many cases and now they to pay the consequences.

Clarkie, you're the best. You're a sweetie as far as I'm concerned.