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Okay, here's the scoop. Yesterday morning, my WW asked me if I would watch our youngest S (age 5) all nite so she can be alone and think about things. I told her that would be fine. Now, the problem was that I assumed she would be home by morning so I could drop him off on my way to work, but she wasn't home yet this morning. No one else was around to watch him. Well, I did some brainstorming and figured something out, and barely made it to work on time. Around noon, I called home to check in w/ my oldest S. He said that WW didn't get home until around 9 this morn. I was mad as h*!!. Forget Plan B... I was ready to start LBing all over WW. So, I called her.

I asked her what time she got home this morning and asked her how she expected me to take care of our S and go to work at the same time. She said she forgot about no one being around this morning to watch him, and apologized. So, I ended up not LBing over the ordeal. I asked her if she did much thinking last nite. She said she did and it helped her a lot. Then I asked her what she figured out, and she said she didn't come to any conclusion yet. I was extremely anxious to know what she was thinking, and maybe I shouldn't have pushed it, but I asked her which way she felt she was leaning. She paused for a while, and then said that she really misses her boys, and especially our oldest S that lives w/ me. She also said that she wants to make an appointment w/ a counselor because the last time it helped her. I told her that I thought that would be a really good idea. I also told her that I've been waiting for her to come home, and told her that I miss her. She said that she knew that I missed her (of course, she can't come out and say that she misses me too). It sounded like she was starting to cry at that point. I also said that it's not going to be easy for either one of us, and she will have to give me some time if that's the way she wants to go. We did some more small talk for a few minutes, and then I told her that I had to go. I told her that I will be around tonite if she wants to talk to me about it, and told her that I love her. She said that she knows (that's her usual response to that – one time she told me that it upsets her when I tell her I love her) and for me to have a nice day.

Well, what can I expect now? Does this sound positive... maybe? I just don't want to set myself up for a big fall.

Patience... patience...

[ June 28, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

Hey john,
this sounds very typical to me, very similar to my wife. She was in and out from early may 2001 till now. She is still pretty much the same. But now I am strong and on plan B leaning towards plan D. She either called, emailed, or saw me in person from around 10/2001 till 5/2002 with the same story. I love you and I want to come home etc. . . but it was always temporary. The next minute, hour, day, or week she would be back with OM. So from my experience expect nothing until she comes crawling back, begging for forgiveness, accepting all MB rules of recovery. Okay you might not get the crawling of the begging, but I would definetely only accept a return with MB principles in mind.
Have no expectations, depend only on the dependable one, God.

Tofu,
I've been reading your thread and I just don't know how to reply. If any of that happened to me, I don't know if I would laugh at her, slap the sh*t out of her, or break down in tears. Man, you've been through a lot. So, when you say to me "Hey john,this sounds very typical to me, very similar to my wife", I get a little scared. But, then again, my W is sleeping w/ the OM regularly, and she can be very irresponsible. What a crappy thought of my W w/ HIM. Will I ever be able to touch her again? These are some bad pics in my head that runs over and over and over... usually just as I'm about to fall asleep, or at 4 o'clock in the morn. I can't say that I've had a good nite's sleep for a good long while now.Anyway, I'm hurtin' with you, tofu. You seem to be getting pretty strong with time, so keep it up.

John if she does return, which she probably will, before it ends with him and I hope for your sake it is totally over with him and you two can begin the process of recovery you will heal. It may take some time but you will heal. Just remember she is back. One of the mistakes I made was not allowing my wife to go through the withdrawal of OM and to not cut the contact completely. It was difficult to cut contact because of the pregnancy. But in my case, she returned and she was very relieved that I accepted her but the A was not near from over. In my burning desire to have her back, I ignored the affair. I took her into my arms and we loved each other like never before. At least, I thought at the time that we did. But yes I did make love to her knowing she was pregnant with someone else's child and I enjoyed it tremendously and the thought of her with OM did not even enter my mind. I was so happy to have my wife back in my arms and to have her really kiss me not the 1 sec pecs on the lips that I had been receiving for over a year. And to also have her say I love you. Man I should stop talking about this, I am starting to feel like I want to talk to her!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyways john be patient, stick to your plan b and don't worry about what she is doing right now because when she makes her decision, either to return or not, you will be ready. It is important to remember that if she does choose to come back, she may resent you for awhile for "forcing" her to lose her lover and she will also greatly miss her lover for awhile. Careful with the lovebusters at that time.

Tjs,U are good to recognize the small progress steps. It can move either way at this point so please take it with caution. I got famed for saying it on another post but it is true. Your sleepless nights are common. Most of us are on the A diet and lose so much weight. Also we have a major andrenaline rush that keeps us awake and when we sleep there are some awful nightmares. Not just you but if you have children, they could be suffering also. My son had nightmares and he was 6 when d/d hit our home. Here's a thought. As long as she is showing confusion it is a good thing. Sounds bad but it is good. That may mean that the OM is not that great after all. L.

I'm realizing that maybe I waited too late to start plan B. I feel like I don't care so much anymore if she ever comes back. She betrayed me and I want her to suffer the consequences. She's going to be miserable, and lonely. And to make it worse, she will realize that our marriage was not as awful as she lets on. I've been here for her through all her lies and deception and betrayal, and I'm really getting tired of the whole ordeal.I think it's too late for our M to be saved now. She can keep her head in the clouds as long as she wants to. I'm tired of it all.

TJS,Mind if I make a small suggestion? When others expressed the same sentiment as yourself, one option was to take a breather. You have been at MB for about 8 months. That is a long time to be running at an adrenaline speed. Howz about an MB break, talk or even meet with one of the MB guys nearby or put your focus into something constructive that you re-energize you. Might help. Us gals like to go to the spa. A new hobby? New sport? Nothing too dangerous now. We'd still like to hear from you!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Hi Orchid!
I get kinda moody sometimes, don't I? But here's why...I have 3 boys that are in baseball right now. Naturally I like to go to as many as I can. Unfortunately, my WW goes to some of them, and I have to see her. Sometimes, I can't bear sitting by her more than a few minutes before I have to move somewhere else. Yesterday, I was at a game and WW sat down next to me. I told myself that I was going to be able to handle being next to her, and i just won't talk to her. Of course, she started talking to me, and before I knew it, we were having a real nice conversation. I wasn't expecting that.I think I came up with another plan. She told me that she wasn't going to spend this weekend w/ OM, like she has the past several weekends. So, if she holds true to her words, maybe i'll hang in there for a while longer. But if she lies again, I think I'm done. And I'll know it because I can see her house from my kitchen window (not really a good thing). Anyway, I don't have much time to find another hobby, etc. I work, then to the gym to lift weights, then home to make dinner for my S and me, then I have just an hour or 2 max. before I go to bed (to stare at the ceiling for a couple more hrs).I have always wanted to try skydiving...

Hi thejohnsmith:Skydiving seems like a good idea, do it while you can......All the best, keep working until you drop....thelion

Alright, it seems that as soon as I make up my mind just what I need to do, something happens.

WW called me yesterday and asked if she can come over and talk. I said okay. She came over and we sat in silence for a few minutes. Then I asked her what was on her mind. She started crying and told me that she is so confused. She told me that she has an appointment w/ a counselor next week, but she’s going to see if she can move it up sooner. Then she asked me if I would go with her. I asked her why, and she said “I don’t know. You don’t have to go. I just want you to go w/ me.” I told her that I would go. I asked her if she was going to end her relationship w/ OM, and she said she didn’t know. She was crying and told me that she had everything all planned out. She said she had this dream she was living, and now she’s just so confused. She said that she knew she'd have to quit her job if she decided to leave the OM. I asked her if she loves me, and she said “I don’t know… I don’t know about anything right now.” She was really bawling before she left.

I'd like to hear other opinion's about this. Do I continue w/ plan B, or do I now revert back to plan A? Should I go w/ her to counseling even though she hasn't made a commitment to our M? Also, next week my in-laws are taking my kids with them for a couple of weeks. Should I try to set up a “date” w/ WW, or try to spend some time w/ her? Or should I let her have this time for being alone and thinking about things? Should I still try to avoid her like I have been? It hasn’t done much good because she keeps calling me or coming over.

It's really difficult to hear MY W talk to ME about the OM and her feelings she has for him. Why can’t anything be easy? Where do I stand, and what should I do… ?

Hope to hear from you, Orchid, the lion, tofu, coffeeman... anyone... ?

Hi TJS.

I just finished reading your latest update and it seems that the A with OM is not satisfying all her needs because otherwise she would have never contacted you for anything and I mean anything. But I think it's worth remembering that she may be panicking that you are ready to move on with your life and that you'll close the door on her. I would also suggest that you do not let her fear of you moving on, be the basis of her returning to you because the fear is only temporary and she'll be back to business as usual with OM - this is such a recurring theme that it's become a cliche - . You might be wise to consider telling her that you do not want her back if she is doing out of fear instead of because she truly loves you and wants to be with you instead of with OM.

Your W - like most WS's whose OP does not satisfy all their EN's - would like nothing better than to have you and OM at the same time. Of course this is unacceptable and even in her foggy head she realizes this but is yet trying to find the formula for you to accept this situation.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have financial problems due to her irresponsable behavior? If so, don't you think that these issues also have a say in whether you should accept her back in your life? After all, one thing is her A - which may end soon - and another is her financial recklesness that puts you and your kids in serious economic hardship. Don't discount the seriousness of this issue because you still have feelings for her. She needs counseling to deal with this self destructive problem before returning to the M because it has severely impacted not only her but you and your children as well.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks, coffeeguy.
I never thought about my W coming back to me out of fear. And you're right, it would only be temporary if she did.

Yesterday (or so) I wrote that if my W decides to go to OM's house this weekend like she said she wasn't, then I was going to give it up. Well, guess where she's at now tonite and tomorrow nite, too. She said she wants to talk to him and try to figure things out. She also said that Sunday she wants to get on this website because I've told her about MB. Maybe she really does want some help?

I'm so tired of this whole thing that I just want to run for the hills. But at the same time, if she really wants to figure out reality, maybe I should stick around a while?

I've been pulling my hair out by the handfulls! Will I be sane after this is all over and done?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
Thanks, coffeeguy.
I never thought about my W coming back to me out of fear. And you're right, it would only be temporary if she did.

Yesterday (or so) I wrote that if my W decides to go to OM's house this weekend like she said she wasn't, then I was going to give it up. Well, guess where she's at now tonite and tomorrow nite, too. She said she wants to talk to him and try to figure things out. She also said that Sunday she wants to get on this website because I've told her about MB. Maybe she really does want some help?

I'm so tired of this whole thing that I just want to run for the hills. But at the same time, if she really wants to figure out reality, maybe I should stick around a while?

I've been pulling my hair out by the handfulls! Will I be sane after this is all over and done?<hr /></blockquote>So she says she needs to talk to OM to figure things out and so she needs to spend the whole weekend to 'talk' to him? Yeah right. What she is actually doing is throwing you crumbs and expects you to live off them while she tries to see if OM can totally comitt to her. If he does comitt you will see a cold, selfish, nasty person that will not give a damn whether you live or die. If he doesn't want to comitt then she can justify leaving him and returning to you but without the comittment to you or the M. I say you proceed with your plans to move forward and let OM deal with her.

Look TJS, even if you get divorced you will still have to maintain a relationship with her due to your kids but at least she won't be there to drag you emotionally thru the mud like she is doing to you right now. But it's up to you to decide if you've reached your limit of no return as far as wanting her back in your life.

Sorry for the pessimistic post but your W is still involved in the A with OM and thus you can not hope for any marital recovery at this moment.

TJS,

Ok, I'm here and read your post. REalize this: Her confusion is a good sign. I will out my take on what you have written:

1. She had a plan, now she is confused.
2. She is going to the counselor but
'wants' U to come.
3. She is not in love with you but comes to U to fill her ENs.
4. She went to OM to have other ENs filled (ouch I know this one hurts ..... sorry - but part of the healing - radical honesty stuff!)

5. U are getting mighty tired.
6. U are trying to determine if you should keep your word and go to plan B or stay in plan A.
7. This is torture to the love in your soul.

Here's my idea:

1. Go with her to the counselor.
2. Let her muddle in her own stuff.
3. When the kids are gone for those 2 weeks, you go do your own thing. Guy stuff - golf, bowling, baseball game, etc. Enjoy yourself.
4. If she grumbles about feeling neglected, don't offer to jump to her rescue. She needs to come to U with action. Not just a bunch of words.
5. Remember that when you are trying to give her something to think about, what she is hearing is 'blah blah blah, etc.'

So don't get sucked into that mess. Make sure she is the one who works on reestabiling your trust. In order for that to happen, you need to be strong. Where are U on that piece.? Also I learned and see quite a bit.....

Also be aware that some OPs and WS stage these combacks.

L.

TJS, your WW sounds a lot like mine - very confused with a huge attachment to OM. Sounds like another "soulmate" thing. I would go to the counselor because seeing a counselor seems to me like a positive move, however, I would avoid all other contact. I would definetely not invite her on a date. You might be able to have a better idea of how to proceed after the counselor visit. But it looks to me like your WW is not at all ready to give you up so you might want to leave a little door open for her. May be something important might happen at OM's this weekend. Hanging out with some pals sounds like a real good idea for you.
May be that week your kids are out you might take a few days off work and take a long weekend somewhere and visit an old buddy. Do something different and leave your area a few days, go somewhere you have never been before but don't even think about her. Okay not possible, but try!
When thoughts of my WW come up, I immediately try to change my thoughts to something else. It takes training but it helps.

TJS,

Tofu is right. He even indicated that this 'detaching with love' process will be hard but worth the effort. For who: for U!

This might sound totally illogical but you have to realize who and what kind of situation you are dealing with. Sort of like a child with a temper tantrum but old to enough to cause more damage.

L.

Thanks Orchid, tofu and coffeeman... I do need some guidance many times, and it helps me tremendously to hear from all of you. Something that I realized today is that after I read all the opinions and comments, I already have those answers and solutions in my head. It just takes someone else to help me process those thoughts and come to a solution.

I am so tired of this. I know that I need a break. I also think that I'm done with this relationship. It wasn't a wonderful M from the start, and I always had her dad to contend with. She always took his side on everything. I never seemed to be married to a W, but instead someone's daughter. My W would sometimes complain that I never show her enough love and attention. But I had a difficult time doing that when I couldn't get the same from her. Her attention went to her dad... always. And I did communicate that to her, but she refused to break the daddy-daughter bond. He cut me down when I wasn't around, and it eventually took its toll on my M. I just learned this recently. She never told me this during our entire 10 yr (stb 11 yr) M. I never knew it, but I was always being tested. The situation is so reversed now, it makes me want to puke. Her dad finally realized what a wonderful H, father and person in general that I am. And now she doesn't care what her dad says to her about anything. And he won't even speak to her anymore. Their relationship is ruined from all her crap. For 10 years, she listened to every word he said and jumped everytime he told her to and she worshiped the ground he walked on. Now either of them care about each other, and my marriage is gone. I've always been the one to suffer because of them, and I still am.

So, anyway, I never had a true W. So, why am I crying about it now? Because I know that through all this A, she finally realized that I was right about how her dad affected our M, and how she always took his side and how wrong it was for her to do that. That was the thorn in our M, and the thorn has been removed. Only now, the wound from it is causing me to bleed to death.

We have identified the problems in our M and agreed that they were the issues that caused our M to slide downhill. That is the hardest part in rebuilding the M. Identifying and accepting the issues. The next step is to resolve those issues so they no longer are LBs. I know our M could have been the M that we both wanted and needed, and could have lasted an eternity. But, unfortunately, her foolishness doesn't allow her to come back to her M because she's now involved in a relationship that never should have started. The part that hurts me the most, is that she never said to me that her love is getting diminished. She never let our M have a chance to rebuilding. Instead, she ran into the nearest man's arms and threw herself at him, saying "my marriage is awful... rescue me!" I didn't have a chance.

Now, I know she is starting to regret her decisions, and regret how she is the cause of our family being split apart, and she is the reason for her relationship between her and her S to be ruined, and she is the cause of her relationship between her and her parents to go sour, and she is the one that turned her back on all of her friends and siblings, and she is the one to make our M become impossible to rebuild. THAT is a huge burden to bear for the rest of her life. I can't imagine how she will feel one day when she reflects back at all these stupid, stupid decisions she has made, and know that she will realize how she had ruined her life, and altered her kids' lives in such a negative way. They will grow up knowing that their mom chose OM over her own kids. And she will realize all this. And it's gonna hurt... bad. And all I will ever be able to say is "I tried my best, but it wasn't enough for you".

No more cake-eater for me. I am completely through, and I feel good about it. I do feel sorry for her somewhat, but she is going to have to live with the decisions that she has made. And I know she is going to be miserable. Well, TOO BAD! She traded her family in for this OM. My God, what a mistake! I really tried, but she turned her back on EVERYONE (except OM).

I've made up my mind. She is no longer a part of my life. I also know that one day I will meet someone that can treat me like I deserve to be treated, and can love me as a wife. I don't need anymore pain, so I'm walking. My responsibility now is to be a father for my boys, and help them through this and shield them from this A.

Good-bye, my wife. It really didn't have to be this way...

[ June 29, 2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

tjs, I wish you well brother.
I am there with you.

You are so right TJS about your W beign a fool that one day will wake up and realize all the damage she has caused to everybody that really cared for her. She may have betrayed you and the kids but the worst betrayal is the one she has done to herself.

Stay strong for yourself and your kids, we are here for you.

Well, just as I figured, SHE came over this morning after spending the past 2 nites at OMs house. She said she wanted to see the MB website. So, I showed her several pages from the notable threads and some other ones like plan A/plan B. it gave her an understanding of what MB is about. Then I pulled up some threads on the forum that I’d been reading lately. She saw mine and wanted to read it. Hmmm… not a bad idea. She can see what my thoughts are and have been for the past couple of weeks. So… that’s just what I did.

As I was bringing up my thread, she asked me if I was going to go w/ her to our S baseball game today. I told her “I think you’ll get the answer after reading this. I think she was surprised by what I had been writing on here. And I think she was equally surprised to read everyone else’s opinions and advice. I think it was a huge eye-opener. I think it went very well. It was a little awkward considering that I didn’t expect for her to read any of this when I posted. But it showed her my true feelings from a perspective that I was writing these to someone else and not directly to her.

By the time she got to the end, she was really crying hard. She stood up and walked out without saying a word. And she didn’t have to ask me if I was going to the game. About an hour later, my youngest S called and asked me if I wanted to go to the pool w/ him and his mom. Then she got on the phone and we talked for a couple of minutes – just small talk. She was still crying. I’m a little upset because I was planning on taking him to the pool. I was looking forward to it, but now I can’t cuz she’s going. Is this her way of trying to “get back” at me by taking him instead of me? Or is she hoping that I’ll go too as some kinda proof that I really do want to see her still? It’s really hard to analyze her thoughts.

Anyway, I’m sticking to my plan. The last message that I posted said that I’m finished. And that’s the last thing she read. I didn’t say anywhere that I hope for her to come back when the A is over. I wonder if I should tell her that, or just let her sit for a while, thinking that I don’t ever want to see her again? But the truth is that I don’t even want to see her right now. Maybe I’ll feel better in a couple of weeks of being away from her. Then, maybe I’ll be willing to rebuild if the A is over. But I just wonder if I need to tell her that.

Who knows… never say never, right?

Any opinion on this?

One of my boys called me a while ago, and he wanted me to come over and help him set up his Playstation on the TV. I went over there, and WW had still been crying... her eyes were swollen and red. She's been crying for 7 hours.

Did something hit home today?
Did something actually impact her?

thejohnsmith,

You have a lot of contact w/ WW ... you are not in plan B. Either you are in plan A or plan B and there is no in between. You could take a break from her and that is encourage. I took time away from my WW and be with my 2D for a week, it helps me a lot.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Plan B should be done... only...
...when you've put in the effort of a good Plan A...
...when you've improved yourself...
...when you can accpet permanent separation...
...eventually leading to divorce.

taken from Jim's reply to your post ...I usually add from SAA ... when WS rejected your plan A. <hr /></blockquote>In plan A doesn't mean that you have to be a doormat ... specially when you 've done a good plan A. BS has to take whatever WS wants in the early plan A so that the focus in on your changes. However is you have done good plan A and WS acknowledge it ... time to put a bit boundry and start learn how to deal and talk w/ the fog. Orchid is Venusian and you could ask her for specific.

I know you are hurting right now ... I rally would advice you to pick up the phone and ask her if she wants to talk or want to talk to Steve or Jennifer. When you talk to her ... use I as the point of reference ... for instant, "I felt that way on my post because I feel that you ... etc ...". You need to let her know also that you need time off for all of this ... "I feel overwhelm and I need to be away for a while or to limit contact since I am hurting from all of this." Fight for you M, John, give it your last best shot. Learn how to open up your self and invite her to do the same. If she is not responding, go on to your retreat, go away fro a week somewhere ... away from all of this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
One of my boys called me a while ago, and he wanted me to come over and help him set up his Playstation on the TV. I went over there, and WW had still been crying... her eyes were swollen and red. She's been crying for 7 hours.

Did something hit home today?
Did something actually impact her?<hr /></blockquote>TALK TO HER ... even just say your concern and you will be there for her if she needs someone to talk to. -RH-

Thanks redhat-
I really do understand that there is nothing between plan A and plan B. Ever since i gave her the plan B letter, she's been calling me or coming over to my house. But, I know I should have been firm and explain the reasons for no contact, but instead I let her cry on my shoulder.

I swear, I've never been through such mood swings since puberty. BTW, this year I turn 40! Anyway, I still feel that plan B is the way to go. The whole time that I was in plan A (almost a year) she knew she could have me back whenever she wanted. But, when I gave her the letter, she realized that maybe I meant it, and maybe she really was going to lose me for good. That's when she started showing signs of fog-lifting. I have not called her or gone over to her house, with the exception for today to help my son. I did also agree to show her this MB website, which I did today. Okay, I probably shouldn't have agreed to do that, but I think it really helped open her eyes just a little more. Her reading the messages I posted and the advice and opinions others offered really hit her hard. This is what reality is all about, not that fantasy she's been trying to live in. Yes, I'm in plan B, but I still think that showing her this thread helped immensely.

So, maybe I still question whether or not I want to work things out in our M. No matter, you and everyone else are right... I gotta take a break from her, regardless if I want to work on this M anymore or not. I just think that even if she does meet the things I outlined in my letter to come back, I just don't know if I have the strength or desire or love to start working on the M. I know it's gonna take a lot of work on both parts, and I still have so much resentment and bitterness for her and her actions.

I think I need to stand firm on this... much more than I have been. She wants me to go to a counseling session w/ her sometime, so I think I should. But other than that, I really think I need to keep a distance from her. She has to make a decision, either it's her family and M, or it's OM. I can't stand here and continue to pretend to smile and try to understand. I know that I layed a strong plan A, and there is no question that she sees that I am a H that has been willing to meet her needs, and I've shown her that I can. I have no doubt that she knows that I've loved her beyond belief, and I've shown her undeniable patience. But my patience is wearing thin, and it's time for her to hop off the fence. To her, the other side of the fence looked greener... but weeds and stickers are green, too.

What a crazy ordeal this has been. I thank all of you that have offered me your opinions and advice and hope. I really don't know where I'd be today if I never would have found this MB and all you wonderful people. And to think, that all of you have been or are still going through the same torment that I am. There are so much pain... but fortunately, there is also hope and healing.

Thanks, everyone of you.

Dear John:
I was reading some of your posts and feel that your situation is the closest to mine.(but I didnt start smoking, my H did though) My in-laws always rejected me, now I am an angel. My father-in-law is dying and my H keeps asking me to call him because he loves me. I told my H that I am not in the family anymore and he got mad and said that I was. I reminded him that he took the OW to Brazil with him to meet his family.
I have been Plan A'ing for a year now. I think my H wont leave the OW because he has no one but her. He also doesnt live with her because he hates her 3 kids but lives in this honeymoon fantasy.
I feel the same as you right now. My love is totally empty for him and I feel I want to move on. I can't divorce him for another year because we are waiting for the green card, I am from Canada. Now I can only move on emotionally.
My husband has been crying a lot since he left. He keeps wanting to talk about our marriage issues and when he comes in the house, tells me he misses the family, misses the house, is so miserable, so lost,but he won't break up with the OW either. I have had it.
I might be the only one telling you this but I think you should not go to your W's councelling. This may make her think that you are hanging on, unless you are going there to improve Plan A but you are in Plan B. She already knows that you will do everything to restore the marriage if she just does her part to end the A. I think it is pointless to go to councelling with her. I did go to councelling one month ago with my H, he was still so much in the fog, said for the first time he wanted a divorce and that he had moved on. He believes the love can never come back. He says he wants a relationship where there is a constant spark. After the session, he got mad at me and said everyone was against him and no one understands how he feels. It was a waste of time, Plan B is the answer. If she wants councelling, let her go herself. If the councellor wants to talk to you, talk alone with him, not with her. Until she is ready to commit to her marriage and family, there is no sense to have councelling together unless it is issues with the children. I did it and I just got hurt.
Another thing, don't be totally transparent with your W. Don't show her every little feeling you have. Keep it a secret. Don't show her your pain. The best revenge is to show her that life goes on without her, and you will be happy. Don't let her ruin your happiness. She is not worth it. Life is too short. I now have amazing friends who are like my sisters, in the same situation as me, I wouldnt trade them for the world. Are you now closer to your kids?
Believe me, she is feeling the pain especially to be rejected from her father. She needs to hit rock bottom.
I wouldnt want my H to read all the comments I have here. He would probably be very angry. I did send him some reading material from here but of course, that meant nothing to him.
He called last night and asked if I watched the World Cup soccer game. We have a big screen TV and he said he would of like to be here at the house to watch it and he acted like he didnt have the best of time. He always tries to portray to me that his life with his girlfriend isnt a bed of roses. He has lied sooooo much to me that I don't trust anything he says. I see him as a selfish, non-giving heartless dirty man. That is not good, is it? Thinking of touching him in a sexual way just makes me sick.
My H also never told me there was a problem in our M. He never gave me a chance. I knew there were problems in our M. He was so angry all the time, never talked, just seemed to find everything wrong with me. I didnt know how to deal with it and I ended up keeping my distance to avoid confrontation but now I realize that he needed my love and affection. I never once refused his affection.
I am planning to have a talk with him again so he understands what "NO CONTACT" means. We just have to keep at it, dont we, John? I sometimes wonder if it is too late for reconciliation, my hope is gone.... Take care, Kim....

TJS I hate to say this but your W is afraid and she's crying her eyes out because her little fantasy life of having a H waiting for her and a lover on the side will be ending soon. If her lover satisfied all of her EN's, she would have filed for divorce a long time ago and would not even talk to you again, but because that is not the case, she is like a lot of WS that can not committ to one or the other and bides her time in the hope that both you and OM will grow tired and give up in demanding that she choose one or the other, and just accept the present situation. I wouldn't be surprised if OM is getting just as fed up as you are and is ready to leave her for good. Now wouldn't it be ironic that by trying to keep two men she ends up losing both of them?

Go to her to counseling but don't expect anything from her by doing so. Do it with the hope that it will benefit your children by having her get better but not because it will magically transform her into the W of your dreams.

Good luck and keep on posting.

I have to say I thought only woman went through this hell! I told my H that if we divorce I would never be able to trust another man because of the infidelity on his part. You give me hope that there are men out there who love their spouses. I hope she stops messing with your head and wish you the best... she is going to lose a good thing if she carries on!!!

tjs & mf,

You could be in plan A but not catering to their ENs ... again Orchid is expert on this. However she is very strong woman emotionally, I can not do it myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ... I have to be in plan B. I really do understand for both of you to be in plan B. With children, contact is unavoidable, the most important is not filling EN. There is no prefect plan B, you are still M and there are time when you have to have contact.

tjs, I know it is hard when your kid asking for help but that is a grey line on contact. I would do the same but you might fill in your W's EN in family support.

Take vacation !, away and a break from all of this mess for a while ... it helped my sanity. -RH-

Hi, Kim-
You’re right, our situations are very similar. But, I don’t know if my love is totally empty for my W. Instead, I’m just extremely worn out and out of patience. I also don’t know if the love that I do have will last the duration through recovery, but I do still love her.

I thought about the counseling session w/ WW. Isn’t the whole reason why we’re here on MB is to re-BUILD our marriage? I don’t think it could hurt anything by going. I feel strong and up for it. Maybe, I can get some insight on some things. I don’t plan on saying much unless I’ve been asked a question. I figure I’ll just sit quietly and listen. When you went to your counseling, who’s idea was it? Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I’m going to get hurt over this.

I agree with you about not showing her any pain, but I really don’t have much right now. I have anger, resentment, frustration… my pain has kinda went numb. I think I am showing her that my life will continue w/out her, but at the same time I want her to know that I want her to come out of her fog. As long as she’s w/ OM, my life will move forward w/out her. But, Kim, I’m not really in the revenge business. I want what is best for my family, and I really believe that if she can rid herself of OM, there is a chance at recovery, and reuniting my family. Parents as a couple that love each other and respect each other are far better for the kids than being separated parents.

You asked me “Are you now closer to your kids?” Somewhat closer to my younger ones, but very much closer w/ my oldest. Through all this, WW lost her relationship w/ him, and he refuses to talk to her. He has never been one to open up his feelings to me, or anyone else. He’s a tough 14 yr old that doesn’t like talking about his feelings. But, I have made progress, and he’s told me things that I never thought I’d hear him say to me. If nothing else, we have gotten much closer through all this. He actually cried on my shoulder one nite. Unbelievable… !

You also talked about the pain she is feeling to be rejected from her father. Her parents came out here last week and I met them at my boy’s baseball game when I got off from work. Coincidentally, WW arrived at the same time as I did. Her mom and dad both hugged me, and her dad didn’t even acknowledge her existence. She told her mom later that it really hurt her, as it should.

Is it too late for reconciliation? That’s something that only you can find somewhere in your heart if it’s there. For me, I’m definitely taking a break… for how long? I dunno, maybe for good, but I think I may get my second wind. Who knows…

You can vent to me whenever you want… take care.

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Hi, CoffeeMan!
You always have a way with words that I can relate to.

I think you may be right about her not being able to commit. But, I’m quite sure that OM thinks I’m way out of the picture. He’s clueless. He has no idea how tormented she is right now. I think he’s such a jerk that if she tried to reveal that she’s having second doubts, he’d probably dump her. Yeah, it would be ironic that by trying to keep two men she ends up losing both of them. I bet that happens frequently.

Thanks again, coffeeman!

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Okay, redhat, I got your message. You’ve been trying to tell me to give it one more shot before hanging it up. So, I figured, what have I got to lose, really? I told her this morning that I wanted to talk to her. She came over this evening, and we sat on my front porch for about a half an hour. Besides, my plan B thus far hasn’t been the model plan, so what’s one more conversation… right?

I’m not going to get into too many details because it’s late and I gotta go to sleep. But, she told me that she went to her counseling today and it really helped her. She expressed her fear of me not forgiving her because she said there would be no way she could ever forgive me if I did the things she did. I told her that I know I can do whatever I must on my part for rebuilding our M, and that forgiveness comes with understanding which I achieved in most part from my friends at MB. I said that she needs to find what’s in her heart, because her head is making her confused. I also said that I love her. I explained that because I want to protect the love that I have, I must have no contact w/ her. I said that I will go to the counseling w/ her, but no other contact. I said that in order for me to accept her back into my life, her A must be completely over, she must end the A by using the recommended MB methods, prove to me that it’s over, and that she must be willing to try to rebuild my trust. Anything short of that, and I won’t be willing to jeopardize myself and put myself back into her mess. I STRESSED the “no communication”. I also suggested that she rereads my letter.

Now, redhat, perhaps you could expand on your thoughts about being in plan A but not catering to their ENs.

One more comment… when my kids are asking for my help, I will be there… simple as that. I don’t care what plan I’m in… I’m there. Granted, setting up the Playstation isn’t really anything that important. But, I don’t want my W to be the reason for me to NOT come over when they want to see me. I can avoid her, or better yet, take the Playstation to my house and hook it up. I never thought about that until this evening. Now it’s over here. Perhaps I am meeting one of W’s EN, but I’m doing it to meet the EN of my children. They are the one that need my support.

Finally, you suggested that I take vacation. Well, my kids and I plan to go to her parents cabin over the July 4th weekend. We both could use the break from all of this craziness.

Thanks for your opinions and advice. I always welcome it.

tjs ... it is good that you gave her a last run. You will be energized again after your short break. About your question on plan A w/o catering to WS's EN; there is no such thing in MB ... it is a tough love approach. You draw the boundries (not WS) but you maintain all contact. Orchid does this to her H, even while H live with her, ... tough lady. She is one venusian who could talk to the fog <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Re-read her reply to your post.

Enjoy your trip ... Actually I am on a trip, a competition event, but my WW has my 2 D and stayed on the other side of the hotel. I am playing accidental tourist, even had a chance to take a day trip to Yosemite. -RH-