DH (MindMonkey)and I are recovering from ( I am ashamed to say) my second affair. He has been posting on the forum since August. I have been reading his postings and following along. I always thought about posting but up until now I never really felt like I had a reason to post a question. I have read SAA, HNHN, and LB�s, and I thought I had a good understanding of Dr. H�s principles and knew what I needed to do. For a while things seemed to be going well. But things between us have yet to be consistently good, and I am struggling to understand what I am doing wrong in recovery, or what I need to be doing differently and or better. I am going to add a link to his posting, since it may be redundant to go through the back-story again. But please let me know if there are questions I can answer or details you need to know.

Recovering after WS second affair

For a while it seems things will go well. We will enjoy lots of UA, and meeting each other�s EN�s. But what I have noticed is that DH still has to deal with being triggered by mental images of what happened in my affairs. It usually strikes during an intimate moment and has particularly damaging effects. I can tell when his mental state is starting to take a turn for the worse and I struggle with how I can help. I don�t want to ignore what I know is bothering him, but if I bring it up, the way I understand it, that is talking about the affair and should be avoided.

So far I haven�t been doing a good job. When I can sense his mental state turning for the worse, I don�t say very much. I am not cold or hateful. I just don�t have any idea what I can say. How can I say something to let him know I am sorry for what he�s going through without bringing up the affair?

But I think the real problem might be the fact that he is still having to deal with this trigger at all. I�d like guidance on how to address it when it comes up, but ultimately I�d like to know what I can do so this doesn�t happen to him at all. I feel like there must be something I�m doing wrong if he�s still on the emotional roller coaster like this. This is exhausting for him, and it�s killing any chance we have of recovery. I want to make him consistently happy.

Here�s what we�ve done so far:

Put EP�s into place:
No former boyfriends/partners as friends in any capacity.
No private communications with someone of the OS. FB, email, text, etc. Any required communication should be brought to the attention of the spouse.
No sharing of marital issues, dissatisfaction, etc with someone of OS.
No sharing of marital issues, dissatisfaction, etc with same sex friends that you have not or would not discuss with spouse.
No late nights out with girl friends/guy friends that the other spouse has not met and approved of.
No alcohol consumption unless spouse is present. (For myself only.)
All account info. /passwords are shared with spouse. No creation of other new accounts without spouse�s knowledge.
Each of us will return calls, texts, or emails ASAP. If we�re going to be out of touch for a while, we make it known in advance.
We discuss EN�s once a week using EN questionnaire as a guide.
We act as partners in family/domestic responsibilities.
DH come to my workplace _____ times per month and we have lunch or spend time together.

The NC letter was sent. Though at the time I had not yet found MB and I did not have DH read and approve it before I sent it. So, I wish I could have a do-over on that one but I don�t think that�s advised. I can assure you NC has been maintained. POSOM is blocked from FB, email, and phone.
I admit that I was not proactive in deleting �friends� that encouraged my affair. It took DH pointing it out to me before I realized it needed to be done. After he pointed it out, I mentally did a facepalm. Duh! Of course they�ve got to go! DH has told me he still has resentment over the fact that he had to point it out to me before I corrected it. I regret that and wish I�d realized it and addressed it before he had to point it out. After he did I deleted them off FB, my phone, and email. I also sent both of them a letter explaining how what they encouraged me to do was wrong and devastating to my spouse. And because of that, we could never be friends. Never heard back from either of them. Perfectly fine by me. They and POSOM 1 and 2 are dead to me. If there�s one thing I�ve learned, it�s to choose with extreme caution who you surround yourself with on a daily basis.

Another thing I thought about was exposure. We have exposed to both of our families and the kids. We did not expose to POSOM 1 or 2�s workplaces because both times we were in the middle of a move and I needed to find a job. Now that I have a job, should I or DH send an exposure letter to POSOM 1 and 2�s employer? One of the things that bothers DH is that he feels like his life has been ruined while POSOM 1 and 2 get off the hook with no consequences. Should they be exposed at their workplaces? If so, who should write and send the letter? I would be happy to do it, but I don�t know if exposure to the employer is supposed to be carried out by the BS?

I can send a letter of exposure to POSOM 2�s workplace. But I don�t know where POSOM1 works right now. I do know that the person who was my boss at the time of the affair has since retired, but I am still able to contact her if I need to expose the first affair to her.
DH has told me several times he believes I regret what I did, but that I have no remorse. The way I understand remorse, is that it means to repent and turn away from your sins. Repent means to apologize. I have written letters of apology to DH, our children, DH�s mother, and DH�s father. I have also turned away from my sins. I have cut POSOM 1 and 2 out of my life, along with the people who encouraged the affair. I have turned my back on my past behavior. I have given up all IB and follow the POJA. I have turned away from my past behaviors toward other men. I had extremely poor boundaries. Those are now gone and replaced by very strict physical and emotional boundaries.

No other men are allowed to touch me. Ever. Not a pat on the shoulder. Nothing. Only other women are allowed to touch me, unless it is a medical emergency. I purposely selected a female family doctor, and female physical therapist.

No intimate conversation with other men. Of any sort. Not even jokingly. We talk about work-related issues. If we talk about our families I always bring up my DH. Everything is �we�, not �I�. If people make jokes with a sexual undertone, I don�t respond. If I can, I leave the room and I tell my DH about it that day.

Okay. I think that�s enough for now. Please let me know what you see that I can be doing or improving. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. And thank you to everyone who has been working with my DH and giving him advice and encouragement. I am very grateful to you for the kindness and caring you have shown to him.

Hi ydnccord, welcome to Marriage Builders. It sounds like you are doing a great job making amends. There are a couple of things I would like to discuss, but other than that, I think you are doing everything you can. I would not recommend any more exposures. Workplace exposures are meant for workplace affairs and I don't think you need to do any more exposures.

A couple of red flags I see above are opposite sex friends and having late nights out. I would eliminate ALL OS friends because that is how affairs start. Just cut them out of your life. Nor would I be going out without your husband. Creating an integrated lifestyle is critical right now.

How many hours of undivided attention are you getting every week? Are you going out on dates? Are you focusing on the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment?

The more integrated and romantic your relationship becomes, the sooner he will forget about the tragedy of the past. When he is happy in the present his mind won't tend to go to the past.

Good points, ML. We don't have any OS friendships. I guess we can just delete the part that says "Any required communication should be brought to the attention of the spouse." Really, there is no required OS communication in our lives with the exception of people we must communicate with at work. There is no reason for someone from my work or his work to contact us via FB, email, or text.

As far as late nights out with friends, I can say there haven't been any. When ever we've gone out, it is always with each other. But I like the idea of not going out at all without your spouse. Just makes good sense.

As far as UA, I started back to work recently, and for a while it was going okay. I would get home between 4:30 and 6:30 and we'd have dinner and spend the evening together. It was great. I'd guess we were getting roughly 15-20 hours during the week plus more on the weekends. We would go on dates during the weekend. But perhaps it wasn't enough? I think maybe DH feels like he is sacrificing to make our M work, and feels like I haven't needed to sacrifice anything. I have read Dr. Harley's work and listen to the program regularly. I understand the concept of sacrifice does not work in a marriage. But still, I think this is how it feels to him. Like he's the one sacrificing and doing all the work. I don't want it to feel that way to him. I want to work together to make our relationship better. When I tell him this, he says "Well, it's convenient you feel that way now." I understand he still has a massive amount of resentment. I have read over and over again about the concept of just compensation. But from what I see I am guessing he feels like he is not getting just compensation. I don't understand. What am I missing?

I asked him last night if I have been meeting his EN's and he said no. His top EN's are SF, O/H, Affection, Physical Attractiveness, and Admiration.) He said I can't meet them. He said I can't meet his #1 need of SF because that is something I gave away, and when he looks at me all he sees is someone who is ugly, who hurt him. He said he no longer finds me attractive. He said he does not want to be around me, so I can't meet the IC or affection needs. He said I can't meet his need for admiration because I destroyed that by disrespecting him in engaging in A's. He said he hates me right now, for what I did to him. So, in trying to meet his EN's, I feel like I am trying to make deposits in a love bank that is closed. It's impossible for me to meet his needs when he says he hates me and can't stand to be around me.

It is not "sacrifice" to create a happy, romantic marriage. It is a GAIN. What does he feel you could do better?

I would focus all of your attention on getting your UA time. Schedule this out in 2-4 hour blocks during the week and the weekend, making most of your time out on dates. [versus at home time, which is very ineffective with couples in crisis] Sit down with him once a week and schedule out your time using this worksheet. worksheet

I asked him today "What went wrong?" Meaning, I thought recovery was going well, what do you feel went wrong? His answer was "Um. Let me think about it for a minute. Oh yeah. You had POSOM2 between your legs. Unless you can figure out how to undo that, I'm not interested."

He said he planned on moving his things into the basement and living there. He also said something about working out an arrangement so he could "have a little fun" while he was living here and wouldn't have to take care of his own SF needs for the next few years. Those aren't the exact words, but I think you get the idea.

I told him I didn't want to see that happen. That I want to continue to follow the POJA and work the recovery program. I asked if he'd consider going out and doing something together this evening. He simply said no.

Thanks for the worksheet. I feel like I can't even get to a place where I can use it, if he is refusing to spend any time with me. I will continue to follow POJA and not knowingly engage in any LB's. I will continue to ask him to join me in spending time together. That's all I can think of to do for now. Do you have any other ideas for how to help him? Thanks.

ydn, you are well within your rights to tell him you won't put up with this. This would be horrible to you, and no matter what you have done you do not deserve to go through this kind of abuse. Revenge affairs are just as painful as initial affairs, and abuse does not justify abuse.

Please disabuse him now of the notion that he can live like this for a few months while the divorce is pending. What a horrible thing to have going on under your roof with your kids living there!

Please have a listen to this radio broadcast from Dr. Harley:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05141
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05142
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05143

I am very concerned that we are not hearing for you. Please continue to post so that we can help in your healing, particularly for the sake of your children.

From what I can see, the main problem is not the trigger, but his reaction to it. Him being triggered should not be an excuse for him to utter abusive statements like this:


You can certainly talk with Dr. Harley about what can be done about triggers like this, but the most important principle should be that he should not be handing out abuse when he feels triggered.

Nothing you do can fix this for him - he will need to decide for himself to stop being abusive.

Here is what Dr. Harley posted to my wife:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495463#Post2495463

Markos -

Thanks for your reply. I did email Joyce early this morning and I called in to the show this afternoon. Dr. Harley mentioned several things..

First, the betrayed spouse has every right to seek divorce or separation. That is their ethical right after infidelity. He asked if I thought I could be in 100% support if DH decides to go the route of divorce. I think that I can. I think that would be the least I could do. It's not what I want. It's not what I think would be the best outcome, but that is absolutely his right to decide and I fully respect that.

Secondly, he suggested that DH might try a different AD to help with the mind images that keep torturing him. He also suggested counseling for depression. He said that DH was most likely depressed and his ability to make decisions is affected right now.

I sent him a text this evening and told him that I'd called in to the radio show and asked him if he'd be willing to listen. I have heard from him since then but he did not say if he would be willing to listen to today's show. He did say that he has lost faith in the MB way of recovery, particularly because of how resentment is handled. That is specifically what I called in to discuss.

As far as the comments he made earlier, he really is staying in the basement right now. He says he needs to be separated as much from me as is possible. He does say he plans to pursue divorce after the New Year, and I believe that. But as far as the comment about having "a little fun" while still living here, I don't think he would actually do that.

The reason he said that to me was because of something I emailed to him when I was in the fog of the affair and had my head up my @#$. In my fogged out state, I actually suggested we could live as roommates for the next few years until the kids were done with school. I think the reason he said what he did was because he wanted me to see how incredibly stupid and painful that was for him to hear. Not defending it. Just adding some clarification.

After speaking with the Harleys today I think my plan remains mostly the same.

1. Support his decision.
2. Do not engage in love busters.

I will ask him if he'd be willing to listen to today's broadcast, talk with the Harleys, and perhaps try a new AD.
Even if he decides to go the route of divorce, I think Dr. Harley's advice of finding a different AD and working with a counselor would be helpful for him.

I will definitely listen to the broadcasts you posted. Thank you.

If he does go through with it, expose him to all your friends and family.

Don't assume that he won't. Be on the lookout for any kind of activity on his part. Betrayed spouses are VERY vulnerable to having an affair of their own. His statement is not only cruel, but it makes me believe he doesn't have strong boundaries himself. A man with strong boundaries doesn't make such threats, for ANY reason.

And, even if he never follows through, he is abusing you. Do not tolerate him saying anything like this again. Nobody deserves to be treated that way.

I do!

I think his contempt for himself for having "put up" with recovery is shining through loudly and clearly. He will try to reclaim his manhood (which he never lost, but he can't see that) by showing himself that he's still got it.

He sounds very depressed to me, and I hope that he does not self-destruct because of that.

OM were co workers. Normally you expose them. However you left those jobs so why go back and expose?

Because they will target another female co worker. They need to be held accountable.

More important question did you expose the OMWives?

Just because your BH wants a divorce does not mean you have to give up and let him leave.

You can plan A him. Just the way a BH would plan A his WW out of an affair. Showing her the marriage is the best place for her. That you can show your BH that the new and improved you is the best choice for him.

After all the best situation for his kids is for their parents to be in love with each other and keep the family intact.

Will he do the online program with you?

That's not what Dr. Harley advised. I'm relistening to the show right now.

Prisca and SC, you make a good point. I should know by now that anyone is capable of having an affair. And yes, right now he is very vulnerable. Thank you for sharing your insights.

TheRoad -
I thought of that, too. But here is my rationale, and you can let me know what you think about it. Right now I feel like all my effort should go into supporting my DH's decision and showing him what kind of person I can be and the behavior he can expect from me in the future.
If I go back and expose the OM at their workplace, I don't know if it will help our marriage right now. I do fear that it could lead to either one of them trying to contact me or my DH and then we'd have that to deal with.

Neither of the OM's were married.

When I talked with the Harley's yesterday he did not suggest I go into plan A. I'm guessing it is because this is the second affair. I don't know. But to be sure, I'd be willing to do that.

No, ydn, Dr. Harley does not recommend that a wife Plan A an abusive husband. TheRoad is not really giving good MB advice, here.

ydn, I'm very glad to hear you reached out to Dr. Harley. Your husband is posting right now that he does not want to keep saying gross and horrible things to you. Will you let us know if he continues?

I really agree with Dr. Harley's assessment that being this emotional is going to prevent him from future happiness - whether he divorces or not.

I did not know her husband was being abusive.

Yes, I can do that.

We talked last night for a couple of hours. He is struggling with massive resentment, and generally feeling like I get a good deal all around. I get to have the fun of the two affairs, while he gets to suck it up, and meet my EN's to create a better marriage. So essentially, I slept around and now I get to have a great marriage out of it. He said he feels like he doesn't really have a choice in the matter. He says he feels like he knows that if we stay married we could be mostly happy one day and the resentment would eventually fade. However he feels the only way to protect his self-respect is to file for divorce. So, it's like saying we have Choice A: He gets to be eventually happy but it requires him to work through recovery and accept my two affairs, which were an affront to his heart and soul. Or we have choice B: He chooses divorce and while his self-respect remains intact, he may never really be happy. Is that really a choice?

He also says that a huge part of the resentment for him is that I gave away something that was special. Before my affairs, we were each other's only sexual partners. He feels like I got to experience something that, if he chooses to recover, he will forever miss out on. He was not being disrespectful here. He was being radically honest with me and sharing the thoughts that were going through his mind. I guess what I am not able to make him understand is how I don't feel like I gained anything from the affairs. If I could go back and erase both of them I would. He feels if he lives the rest of his life having been faithful to one person, he may regret it. I have to live my life knowing I chose to throw away something precious and I can never, ever take it back. My concern is that if he sees recovery as him accepting the affairs and living a mostly happy life with regret and resentment under the surface, our marriage will never recover and he will be miserable.

I have more to add, but unfortunately have to head out to work... He said the conversation didn't go like he wanted it to. He said he was on the fence and was hoping we could discuss how we could continue to meet each other's EN's while he was trying to make up his mind about what to do. He had hoped we might snuggle for a little. He did say when he brought up me giving away the uniqueness of our relationship, he wanted me to apologize and show remorse for that. But I did not. I think I failed with how I responded to that. I can give more details as to how I did respond, but for now I have to cut it short so I can get out the door on time. I'll continue posting when I get the chance later. Thanks for reading.

Okay. I have a couple of minutes. When he brought up me having given away our unique and special sexual relationship, he wanted my response to be a heartfelt apology. I think I failed in that regard. When he brought it up, in my mind I started to think about our earlier years if marriage.

At first in our relationship I was a little jealous and insecure. I knew he looked at porn from time to time and he didn't attempt to hide it or lie to me about it. It bothered me pretty badly. I simply asked him not to let me know about it. I didn't feel I had the right to ask him to stop. I didn't want to tell him what to do. I felt he regretted marrying so early and not having the chance to have other sexual experiences. He says at the time this was probably true. He did regret it. Partly because our sex life at the time was terrible. I had some health problems and just generally didn't enjoy sex. It wasn't fulfilling for either of us. I told him I didn't realiZe he saw our unique relationship as special. He said he changed and started to see it that way a couple of years ago, even after the first affair. And now this was something I'd given away and could not get back.

He felt that I should have simply apologized at that point and not brought up the past. He felt I was trying to leverage. Honestly, I wasn't trying to leverage. But I see his point and I wish I just would have given him a heartfelt "I'm so sorry." Instead of saying what I did.

Your husband's overall strategy is pretty clear. He wants to punish you. He thinks that will even the score.

Affairs are disasters all the way around. The idea that that you are getting all the good cookies and leaving him the crumbs is so flawed, I don't even know where to start. In our recovery, I was the most hurt, but my wife experienced great pain and crushing guilt. Who got the best deal? Neither of us. The lesson we learned was that we need to be proactive in our marriage so that this NEVER happens again. We have extraordinary precautions in place that make another repeat impossible. We have worked very hard to rebuild our romantic relationship. Like you, my wife has had two affairs, too. Your husband thinks this situation is so unique none of us can understand. He is wrong. I, too, had a horrible time with "mind movies" of the affair. I understand.

I had a close friend of mine who told me I was letting my wife off too easily. His wife had an affair. That friend has since divorced for the third time and is now remarried in what is technically an affairage, since he started dating this woman before his divorce was final. There is one narrow path that leads to recovery. Your husband is not on that path, yet.

If your husband continues in his present strategy, you are going to have to separate. You should not tolerate the abuse. Abuse is wrong, and nothing, not even something as bad as an affair, justifies it.

Thought I would post an update. We had a great holiday. DH made an incredible Thanksgiving dinner and DD and I helped. We really enjoyed the day and each other�s company. We went for a run, had dinner, and spent the day together. Saturday we all went to the movies together and had a great time. When we left it felt to me like we were more in love than we�d been in a long time.

Unfortunately that changed earlier today. The way I understand it, I was engaging in a couple of love busters. DH had asked us a while ago not to put any files on the hard drive of our computer. Well, I forgot and did exactly that. So I had to move the files back to where they were supposed to go. This was (understandably) annoying to him. On top of that, while I was sitting there at the computer I was also engaging in another annoying habit. I have a habit of rubbing my ear when I�m thinking or reading something. Those two things seemed to put him in a funk for most of the rest of the day. The reason these behaviors are so annoying to him is that they are seen as very child-like.

I could tell at the time something was bothering him. I went over to him and sat next to him on the couch. I asked if there was something he wanted to talk to me about. After a while he said that he wanted to start throwing out some stuff we had. Mainly things that got destroyed in Hawaii or things that brought bad memories. We tore down our desk that was falling apart, and I went around the house and got rid of anything that I thought might remind him of Hawaii.

After that, we went for a run. I could tell he was still in a funk, but it I think the run seemed to go okay. We�d talked about doing Christmas shopping after we got back. He told me he was going to take a shower, but when I went upstairs to check on I found him sound asleep on the floor beside the bed. I could tell he was exhausted so I didn�t try to have him wake up. I gave him a pillow and made sure he had some water and a couple of cough drops nearby as he has been sick for a couple of weeks now.

When I went back to check on him again he was in bed and had showered. I lay down next to him and told him I was sorry that I was the reason he was sad. I told him I wanted to be the person who makes him happy. I don�t ever want to be the reason he feels sad or angry ever again.

He said me sleeping with other people didn�t make him sad. He said he was sad because of the kind of person he is. The kind of person who has a wife who sleeps around on him and he doesn�t expect better. He said me sleeping with other people made him angry, but not sad. He said he had trouble looking at himself in the mirror.

He then explained how he doubted I could ever be the kind of person who could meet his emotional needs, as I have not been able to in the past. He says he feels he has always had to spell things out for me, and even then I fail to meet them adequately. He says he does not like to give examples because I tend to get too caught up in the examples and miss the point. He says he would just like me to figure some things out on my own. He said he never asked to be my father. But that is how it feels to him when he has to tell me specifically what he needs. He wondered if I might not be intelligent enough to figure them out on my own, or maybe I am just too thoughtless a person.

He believes I had the affairs as a means to hurt him. He also believes that I had the affairs as a way to end the marriage. Neither of these is true. But I know that does not lessen the damage or change the past.

Truth be told, I feel lost. I feel there have been times in the past when he has not been forthcoming with me about what needs are important to him. He grew up in a large family with no money and parents who fought constantly, so he grew up not having a lot of his needs met. Sometimes I feel he downplays how important certain needs actually are to him. On the other hand, I can understand how he doesn�t want to have to spell everything out for me. He says he is not sure I can ever really be a thoughtful person. I am afraid that I will try my hardest but in light of what I�ve done, I will never be able to make it up to him. He says he doesn�t think I could ever give him just compensation for what I�ve done.

I am very concerned for him. Saturday we are happy together, and by Sunday evening he is talking of separation again. I am afraid of what these swings in his mental state are doing to his overall health. I don�t want to separate, but I am worried that might be the only way to help him stabilize? Right now he is taking an antidepressant but says he really doesn�t want to try a different one. He did listen to the radio show that was aired last Monday when I was a caller. I believe he plans to be a caller on today�s show.

As always, I am grateful for any advice I can use to try to repair the harm I have done. Thanks for reading.

Hi ydn, I can relate to your rubbing your ear possibly sending your hubby over the edge right now. My H and I had a false recovery, and I have noticed that now, I am practically intolerant to the little annoying habits that my husband had for the past 33 years. HOWEVER�it is our job as the BS to complain rather than criticize in the form of SD, DJs, or AOs. It sounds to me that your H is starting to learn to do this (complain), and that YOU are learning to adjust to those complaints. Good stuff!

Another good thing! This recovery is a long uphill climb made up of zillions of baby steps toward each other. By your throwing out the triggers, that is providing protection for your H. Yay!

As a BS, I can say that I can never hear this often enough. If H says it ten times per day, it helps me each time. There are a few rare times where my H over-says it, and I prefer to focus on the present at the moment, but for the most part since I am still hurting so deeply, it helps me to hear it. Though I don't often enough tell him that it helps�at the time when he says it, it often "diffuses" my grief a bit, rather than providing real comfort in that moment. But it DOES HELP!

I totally get it. I totally felt (and feel) that same humiliation. It is truly the most traumatic feeling, and the word "betrayed" doesn't quite do it justice. HOWEVER�one month out after our (6 month) false recovery�and one month into our true R�I am already starting to go back to the "sad" feelings rather than anger. Sad because we wasted so much time in our lives NOT having the great M that we could have had. More on that in the next paragraph.

Well the part about wondering if you are intelligent enough is a DJ and a LoveBuster, so won't accomplish anything. However, he DID tell you that he would like to see you accomplish some things on your own. I totally get that. I suspect (and I haven't read his thread in a while) that he is asking for more ACTIONS again.

ydn, after the layers and LAYERS of deception have fallen away in my own M, I often feel as if I am laying on the battleground in war somehow still alive, but feeling surreal as I look around and everything around me is dead.

My H is learning now to TAKE CHARGE when I get that look on my face, and he seems to have an arsenal of things to help to pull me back up. I see REAL CHANGE, and I am astounded.

I WOULD NEVER HAVE GUESSED that this could happen. I felt previously, once I truly saw how ingrained and evil my H's A had been, I thought that there was no hope. My H had NEVER in 33 years been a very giving man. He had NEVER had boundaries against the OS. After his A and then our false recovery, my blinders were OFF, and I truly felt as if there was NO WAY that he could change an entire lifestyle of habits that were not in sync with what I view (now) as "marriage material".

My H is now (for the last month) right there with me *every* *single* *time* when I get too close to the edge of that rabbit hole (roller coaster). We don't talk about the A (except for him apologizing again), but as for that arsenal that I spoke of�it changes, and what is successful one time may not be the next�he holds my hand and prays, he gives me a mini massage, he gets me out to the car and we drive someplace south of here AWAY from the scene of the crime, we read MB together, he asks me a probing question about my feelings, he talks about his plans for the future, he makes nutritious food, he brings me a cup of tea or coffee, I could go on and on�you'll need to learn these things on your own as to what actually HELPS your H get through the next ten minutes while he is suffering so much.

The point of it is that my H really GOT my pain this time, and he SHOWS me by his ACTIONS that he empathizes. I just need help getting back over that edge, and then I can take it from there. I don't WANT to feel that horrible pain, and so as soon as I can feel just a bit of relief, I can pull myself back together. THAT HELP from my H is what is (finally) giving me a bit of hope!

I totally did the same thing. I was not good at all about asking for what I needed. I was a giver. I was head over heels in love with my H and I sacrificed. We all know what Dr. H has to say about sacrifice. However, going back now and talking about the past won't help. So we need to learn to be radically honest from this point forward. I am already getting better at it, but I couldn't even SEE my own failings until my H actually came out of the fog. You sound like you are now learning to provide ACTIONS to your H, and therefore he is starting to think about what your M really was, and what he will need it to become in order for him to stay in it. Another good thing!!

My H has said the same thing. There was nothing that I could answer him as far as providing security. I truly did not know if I could stick it out. I still don't know for certain�but I DO know that I see hope now in the last month.

This is a mountain, ydn, and we are at the bottom of a LONG uphill climb. The first order of importance is putting totally secure EP's into place. It took us until 30 days ago to actually accomplish that, and truly ALL of our prior "work" was for naught without those extreme barriers in place. Is your H certain that your EP's are secure enough now?

As far as "making it up" to him, he's right�nothing will make it up�BUT once you've been meeting his needs consistently and shoveling in those LoveBank deposits, and once he starts to FEEL the results�I am praying that he will feel the genuine hope. Dr. Harley says that once we are back in Romantic Love, that we will be focusing automatically on the present and the future. Every step forward is a step closer to that day!

ydnAccord, your husband is continuing his strategy of abuse. It is time to consider separating yourself from him.

Unfortunately, there is very little hope for a wife winning her husband back -- unless he is willing to put forth the effort to recover, you have no hope. And, on top of that, his abuse his damaging his chances of ever recovering.

He is only staying to punish you.

These are all disrespectful judgements and dwelling on mistakes of the past. He will need to agree to not treat you this way any more. Will he? If he won't, there is no hope for recovery.

Hon, what you're doing right now is Plan A. Continuing to show him this kind of unconditional love while he punishes you will be detrimental to your emotional, mental and physical health.

You are not going to win him back by allowing him to continue to abuse you. You need to separate until he decides for himself that he's going to do what it takes to recover.

ydn, I'm more concerned about what these behavioral swings are doing to your mental health. Your husband is continuing to abuse you. Tolerating it will not make anything better in your marriage.

I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and Joyce immediately and let them know about this behavior from him. They need this information in order to have a clear picture for advising him and you.


ydn, don't permit him to continue bringing up the affair. It will only worsen the situation. If he brings it up, you need to leave the room/discussion. He is welcome to talk to you as much as he wants, BUT ONLY ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.


I would make him getting correct antidepressants a condition for remaining with him. As long as he continues to abuse you, he is not safe for you to be around, and none of your marital problems can be resolved. He is free to choose to treat his depression or not treat it, but if he wants to remain with you, he needs to do whatever it takes to stop abusing you.


I think it's important to understand that his choice to abuse you is not caused by the harm you have done. You can't stop his abuse by repairing the situation. You cannot solve your marital problems until his abuse stops, plain and simple.

Let me explain it this way:
You are responsible 100% for your decision to be unfaithful. But both of you are equally responsible for the state of the marriage prior to your affair. And he is 100% responsible for his decision to be abusive.

Your husband can single-handedly destroy your marriage at this point, even though you are willing to do whatever it takes to recover, by continuing to bring up the affair and continuing to abuse you. So far it looks like that is what he plans to do. We have seen this happen several times on this forum. It is very unfortunate, but you should not feel responsible for his choice to abuse you, any more than he is responsible for your choice to have an affair.

Nothing justifies an affair in marriage. Nothing justifies abuse in marriage, either. Neglect doesn't justify an affair. Abuse doesn't justify abuse. An affair doesn't justify abuse, either.

Please write the Harleys, and please keep posting updates here.

QFT.

Don't continue to tolerate this kind of treatment from him.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of ydnAccord's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3

Thank you Markos, Prisca, BlindSighted, and BrainHurts for your responses.

I did email Joyce with a carbon copy of my post on the morning of 12/1 before my DH called in to the show. So Dr. H and Joyce were aware of how things were going when they spoke with him.

I listened to the broadcast a couple of times and took some notes. I have some responses to what they talked about, but for the most part I feel like Dr. H hit the nail on the head.

I'll post more of my thoughts later... Right now I'm waiting for DH to get home. We've got a great evening planned and I can't wait to see him!

ydn,

He said me sleeping with other people didn�t make him sad. He said he was sad because of the kind of person he is. The kind of person who has a wife who sleeps around on him and he doesn�t expect better. He said me sleeping with other people made him angry, but not sad. He said he had trouble looking at himself in the mirror.

I think you are doing a good job trying to understand how your BH feels, I've not seen too many WW who face up to what they have caused in their BHs.

I think the feeling of worthlessness is greater for BHs since they are often so alone and have no one, except the wives who betrayed them, to confide with.

God Bless
Gamma

It started again the night of 12/7. DH and I had emailed each other during the day. It was Friday and I think we were both looking forward to spending a great weekend together. I got done with work early on Friday and texted him that I was on my way home. The weather was nasty and raining and cold. I knew Saturday was supposed to be nice but then it was supposed to be cold and snowy Sunday.

He asked what I would like to do, and so I was thinking out loud, Okay, it�s nasty this evening, so maybe we should get a short workout in, stay home and get rid of some of these leftovers, that way we could go for a run and go to dinner Saturday when the weather is nicer. He seemed to be in agreement with this, but shortly after that he sat down on the couch and I noticed an all too familiar look on his face. It�s the �I hate my life� look.

So I came over and sat by him.
He said that sometimes he gets triggered, but sometimes the bad feelings seem to come out of nowhere. I asked if there was something else he�d rather do? Maybe if he didn�t want to work out maybe he was tired and would rather take a nap? At this point he really wasn�t talking to me that much. I am thinking it was because he was trying to not be disrespectful or bring up the affair. I chose not to workout. Instead I got started on laundry and housecleaning in the hope that would give us more time to spend together Saturday, since Friday wasn�t looking promising.

He lay on the couch for a while and after a couple of hours asked me why I hadn�t worked out. He said he didn�t want to be an anchor to me. I told him he was not and anchor to me. I answered honestly that I had not worked out because I felt that me working out was going to bother him.

He did sleep upstairs with me that night but we didn�t get any UA time in.

Saturday morning he was lying in bed awake and I came and lay down behind him. I put my hand on his shoulder and said �I�m sorry you�re having a bad day.� He said �It�s more like a bad life, but thanks for your sentiment.� He did not say this in a mean or sarcastic way.

I asked if he�d consider going for a run with me. He said no.
I said, �It might help you feel better.� He said �I like laying in bed depressed.�

I said �That�s too bad, because I enjoy running much more when I�m with you.� He didn�t respond.

After a couple of minutes I got up and got dressed.

I said �Are you sure you won�t reconsider?� He shook his head no.

As I was leaving the room he said �I�ll be gone when you get back.�

I said �Where are you going?�

He said �Wherever I want to go. That�s what you�re doing.�
I said �No, I�m not.� I did not say this in a disrespectful way.

I did go for a run. I came back home and hauled a load of trash to the dump. DH fixed a doorknob and microwave handle that had needed fixing for a while. I finished up laundry and housecleaning and DH took DD to get some pics for her photography class. We still were not talking.

Later that evening I mentioned I was thinking of going to church Sunday morning. It was something I�d brought up earlier in the week when we were on good terms and he seemed open to the discussion. I brought it up and asked if he might want to go with me. He said no.

So this morning I got up and went to church. I did talk to him a little before I went but I didn�t ask him again to go with me.

It was the first time I�d been to church in about 14 years. I went to a Catholic church near our house. Part of the message was about remorse and repentance. About how remorse is useful in bringing about change, but ultimately it is a temporary feeling that we have when we have hurt someone or done something wrong. We can actually get stuck in remorse and it keeps us from moving forward. However, the change of heart that comes with true repentance can help us to heal and move forward. I felt like I was definitely meant to hear it.

When I got home I offered to iron whatever clothes he might need for his upcoming travel. I had ironed his uniform already but he won�t be needing it until later in the week. He said he didn�t need anything ironed. I�d like to meet other more intimate EN�s but right now he won�t let me.

I asked if I could go grocery shopping with him, and he declined. When I asked why, he said �It was miserable last week going with you.� He remarked �I�ll do all the things that have to be done, and you could just continue doing whatever the h3ll you want.�

I said �If you continue in this line of thinking, it will destroy everything.� I did not say this in an angry tone. I realize it probably came off as a DJ. But at the time, this was my honest thought. If he continues thinking this way, it will destroy any chance we have together.

He commented again about how I just wanted to do whatever I want and how I don�t talk to him.

And I said, �But, when you lie in bed staring at the wall not talking to me doesn�t help find a solution, either.�

He said �I have a bunch of stuff going on in my head and you just want it to be over. Well screw you. It�s not over.� He left to go grocery shopping.

When he returned I thanked him for taking care of the shopping and gave him a hug. I told him I was sorry that I�d gone for a run without him.

He said �It�s not just the run. It�s everything. Friday, you had other plans.� I said that I had thought we were in agreement about how to spend Friday night but then he just sat down on the couch and wouldn�t talk to me. I said if you weren�t in agreement with how to spend the evening you could have told me, but you didn�t. I said I feel like you�re putting me in situations where I can�t win. You refuse to talk to me or do anything with me. So then whatever I decide to do gets labeled as IB.

He didn�t say anything and just walked downstairs. I followed him and asked �You�re not going to talk to me?� (I didn�t say it angrily or in a demanding way. I�m trying to be very careful about that.)

He replied that he didn�t want to say anything disrespectful. I said, �I respect you for not saying something disrespectful, but I�d like you to talk to me.� He shook his head no.
I know that he is depressed. But I am starting to think that we are not going to get to a place where we can recover if his depression is not treated. He seems to cycle up and down about every five days or so.

Don�t get me wrong. He has a very good reason to be depressed. And I know that depression is very normal at this point in recovery. He has suffered an incredible loss. I am trying to be sensitive to that. But I feel the depression is keeping us from making lasting progress. Every time we do, it comes along and knocks the wind out of his sails. I�d like to help him move forward (and stay there). But every time I try, it feels to him like I am not acknowledging the pain I caused.

I re-read Ch. 17 of HWSW. How to Negotiate When You�re Not Enthusiastic About Anything. I am wondering if we should first focus on getting help for his depression before we can work on recovery? Thanks for your thoughts, MB�ers.

Yes, emphatically.

I agree. In our case, we both were on medication for depression. It was a terrible time.

If I understood correctly, your husband is travelling this week without you. I would not be surprised if his current behavior is related to this.

My H and I charted our UA time for 84 consecutive weeks. Anytime we dipped below 20 hours/week, we both would feel badly. Of course, your husband hasn't left yet, but he is mentally getting ready to be separated, withdrawing.

AM

If your husband is open to changing or increasing his medication, he really might feel better in time. With meds for depression, the patient has to pay close attention to his/her feelings and mood and be open with the doctor, so the meds can be adjusted. Everyone is a little bit different in their medicine needs.

Many men have a really tough time using meds for just about anything, and depression often carries a stigma, especially in the military. My H had to be on depression meds a couple of different times in his adult life, and they were enormously helpful. It took a couple of weeks to start working. He resisted the notion at first, but he was finally convinced to give ADs a try. Once he was able to get his life in better order, start exercising, eating better, and work got better, he no longer had to be on them.

And anger management. He should not be expressing himself to you by swearing. Not even "whatever the hell you want."

And if he's not willing to do these things, don't hang on to him too much longer. He needs to either get help, or you need to get out. Your chances of recovery are being destroyed each day he chooses to stay in limbo -- you cannot continue to take the emotional beating.

Run, ydnAccord.
Your husband is not serious. His posts make it clear that he has no intention to stop hurting you. File for divorce and run.

Um, before filing for divorce you might want to write to Dr H again, ydnAccord.

Just a thought.

Dr. Harley is very clear what a wife should do if her husband is unwilling to get on board, stop the abuse, and build a romantic marriage.

But... I sometimes think that this is part of just compensation. The fact that I stay engaged and stay in he relationship and continue to work on it. Even through the difficult days when DH withdraws or says hurtful things.

I mean, it was my actions that caused the pain. Shouldn't I be the one who is there for him when he needs help?

To use the analogy of the tower again, shouldn't I be patient and wait? I would like to believe that one day if I can show him I can be the person he needs, he will stop having the urge to tear it down and then we can make some real progress.

What does it say about me and my commitment if I just walk away? I hurt him and I'm not even going to stick around to help him work his way out of his pain. How can I say I'm serious about recovery if I can't handle facing the damage I've done?

It is not a demonstration of commitment to tolerate an abusive husband. It is a demonstration of ENABLING, which is harmful to your marriage and to him. It falls under the category of "unconditional love" which is bad for marriages. It says that you care enough about your marriage to walk away before he destroys any semblance of feelings you might have for him. Your husband is purposely destroying your feelings for him. If you allow that to happen, the marriage will be over.

Just compensation NEVER involves behavior that is bad for the marriage. If it is bad for the marriage, then it is certainly not compensation. And abuse is not good for your marriage.

You have more than showed your willingness to be there for him, to help him, and to recover your marriage with him. You have done your best to give him Just Compensation. And Just Compensation does NOT include abuse or punishment of the wayward spouse.

You cannot rebuild the marriage on your own. He MUST step forward and start doing some of the heavy lifting, and he is refusing to do that. He is unwilling to get help. He is unwilling to build a romantic marriage with you.

Nothing you do can make him be willing.

The absolute best thing you can do for your marriage at this point is to separate yourself from him so that you can preserve the love you do feel for him. Currently, your love for him is being drained away. You need to protect it, because he is not going to. You can only protect it by separating yourself from him.

When and IF he does decide to do what it takes to recover the marriage, your marriage will then have some hope. Currently, there is none.


It says that you care enough about your marriage to take the necessary and painful steps to save it. When a BH is abusive and refusing to recover, there is nothing you can do to turn him around. You have a choice: stick around and becoming his punching bag so that you eventually end up HATING him, or leave and give your marriage SOME hope of recovery later on down the road because some of your love for him has been preserved.

Staying with an abusive husband is NOT commitment.

Just Compensation IS NOT unconditional love, and that's just what you've described here.

Just Compensation IS:
1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
Examples: NC letter, phone number changed, email changed ...

2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
Examples: Facebook shutdown, Radical Honesty (no secret second life), job change, no more nights apart ...

3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.
Examples: Eliminate Lovebusters, POJA, PORH, meet EN, UA time each week ...

You are not helping your husband by being an enabler for his abusive/depressive behavior. You would help him more by setting the bar high!

um, you might want to actually listen to Dr. Harley's show before you post. Just a thought.

I did.

But thanks for the thought.

It sure doesn't show. How do you explain telling a poster she should write Dr. Harley before taking advice that he freely gives quite often?

ydnAccord,

You need to take some further steps to affair proof your marriage.

I am confused about whether or not a NC letter was ever sent. Your husband told us in August that it had been, but now claims it never was. Can you clarify this?
If you still have the same contact info that your affair partner used to communicate with you, you need to change these things.

Facebook needs to be shutdown and blocked. This is vital.

Do you still work at the same job as OM? If so, this needs to change ASAP.

Okay. I just read DH�s post and these are all fair points and I will answer to them.

It sounded like he was claiming that all contact has not ended with the AP. I can assure you it has. The NC letter was sent, although at the time I had not found MB and DH read it after it was sent. Like I said in my earlier post, I don't think a redo NC letter is advised... But perhaps I'm wrong. My husband is aware of the last contact I had with either affair partner. There has not been any since, nor do I desire any contact with either of them.

No, my phone number has not been changed. I did block OM�s number after DH brought it up. I didn�t do it reluctantly. I just did not think of it first. I can change my phone number. It�s not a problem. I guess the problem I have with it is that the issue has never been brought up to me. This is the first I�m hearing that it�s a problem.

It also sounds like he is saying he�s not happy with the EP�s we have. We have not yet had a discussion about changing our EP�s.

No, my email has not been changed. I would also gladly change my email. OM�s email has been blocked from my account. In addition, all of my emails show up on DH�s phone.

The Army program -
A few months ago I applied to the Army nurse corps. At the time I thought it was with the enthusiastic agreement of my DH. He accompanied me to my initial interview with the recruiter, and also helped me write my motivational statement. Had I been selected it would have required me to attend basic training in Texas for about 9 weeks. I found out today that I was placed on a back-up list for the program. So, unless a slot opens up, I won�t be going. But throughout all of our discussions over this program, we always talked about how I could decide not to accept the offer if I got stationed somewhere other than where we are living now. I thought we were having an open and honest dialogue about how we each felt about the decision for me to attend. For me, I was honest about the fact that I thought I wanted to do it. But it was always up for negotiation. I just told my DH the other day that I wasn�t sure how I would feel about it if I did get selected, because of the time away. I wanted it to be the best decision for the family. It was something I thought we were in enthusiastic agreement about.
Facebook again�..

When I initially spoke with Dr Harley back in October I told him I�d be willing to get rid of FB. At the time DH didn�t seem like he wanted me to, mainly because we have so many mutual friends and it does help to keep a sense of continuity when one spouse is in the military and we move every few years.
I did pick up on something DH said Sunday when he was upset. He said something to the effect that there were still things I had not done. I wasn�t sure what those were, but I wondered if it might have something to do with FB friends. So Sunday night I revisited them again. I had already deleted OS friends that were not mutual friends of ours. So Sunday night I went ahead and just deleted OS friends even if they were mutual friends. I�m not sure who the dudes are that he says he hates, but if I�d known he hated them, you can be sure they�d be gone.
Right now there are 10 OS friends on FB. They are:

My dad
DH�s dad
DH
2 cousins
my brother in law (DH�s sister�s husband)
2 openly gay friends
DH�s grandpa
my best friend�s husband

I told DH about my BF�s husband being on my friend list. They are considered friends of the family. And at the time he was okay with it. But, as with anything, it is always open for discussion. If his feelings on it have changed, I can delete him as a friend. Or I can delete FB.

As far as the mutual friends with POSOM 1 and 2, I have to tell you I honestly don�t know how many female friends of mine might still FB friends with POSOM 1. I think some of them probably are. It�s hard to know because POSOM 1 and 2 are both blocked from my account so I can�t go to my friend�s list and see if POSOM 1 or 2 is on their list or not.

When DH first brought up my friends, he mentioned that he was okay with me being friends with certain people but that he didn�t want to see certain friend�s faces on my feed because seeing those friends was a trigger for the first affair. Even thought the people I was friends with during the first affair did not know about my affair, and I don�t think they would have condoned it if they did. BUT, they were people I was hanging around with while I had the first affair, therefore they were a trigger. Knowing this, I kept them as friends but changed the setting so their posts would not be showing up on my news feed.
But it sounds like this is still a problem. So I can delete them.

As far as changing jobs�. I am a little confused here. POSOM lives and works at a job 4000 miles away. I changed jobs when I moved here with DH. I asked him before I took my current job if it met with his enthusiastic approval. I was of the understanding he was in approval of my current job.

But again, if that has changed, we should be going back into negotiations.

Really, a social network site shouldn't and needn't be the cause of this much discussion. It's really not difficult; just ban or block the whole thing and have done with it.

Many people live without Facebook. I live with without Facebook. Why is this even being discussed at this stage?

Agreed.

Prisca already told you to get rid of it and I don't understand the resistance... It's not worth the trouble. It really isn't!

Change all your contact information today.

Then just delete it. It's not worth the risk or trouble at this point in your recovery.

Okay. FB is deleted. I'll have to change email at home since I've got some family pics saved that I'd like to keep on our computer. I think I might have to go to the Verizon store to change my no#, but I'll figure that out.

You can change you number at home from the verizon website. I have done this numerous times.

Okay. FB is deleted. I texted DH with my new number. But when I did he texted me back advising me to wait before making any other decisions. I texted back and said, that's fine. All I've done is deleted FB, LinkedIn, changed my number, and changed my email. I said I wasn't doing anything drastic.

He responded back that he thought this was drastic. He asked if I could get my old number back and said he hoped I had not deleted my old email account.

I responded that I did plan to delete the old account because I had already started a new one and I did not want to give him the idea that I was using it to start a SSL.

He said it bothered him that I did all this without talking to him first. He said there were important things to consider before changing personal info and he hoped I had thought through them first. The honest answer (and one that I shared with him) was that I did not hesitate or think it through. Once I read in his post that these were things I'd failed to do, I thought that if I hesitated or thought about it, or waited a few days to do it, that it would be seen as dragging my feet or resisting to do it.

I figured he would think "Good grief. I even spelled it out on the forum for her, but she STILL didn't take any initiative."

Now, he is on travel right now. So I do understand that he was bothered by the fact that I changed info while he was away, because of emergency contacts. He brought that up and it's a valid point.

I just don't get it. I thought in his earlier post he was upset by the fact that I had not changed my number and email address. Did I completely misread that?

He will be home later tonight and we can talk about it. But I've already changed my contact info. I have not yet deleted the original email account.

I guess when I was reading his post I thought it was some sort of a message to me as to what I needed to do in order to provide just compensation.

I think you did the right thing. Right now I don't think your husband sees how important these things are to recovery, so he views them as drastic. I think the main problem is most of the time he doesn't want to recover.


It sounds to me like in your husband's present frame of mind he would punish you either way.

This willingness he has to punish you is why we are telling you you need to be making your preparations for separation now. You may never have to use them, but you want such preparations to be ready in the event that they are needed. Over time, his love busters are going to erode the love you have for him and the willingness that you have to continue giving for this marriage. Ideally, separation needs to occur BEFORE that happens. Separations are easily ended/reversed when both husband and wife come on board.


I really think he needs to stop lecturing you. I think he has a valid complaint about not talking to him first, but to present himself as the expert with the enlightenment you are lacking on this subject is not the way to do it.

Okay. So, if I am understanding what you are saying, the better way to go about it would have been for me to wait until he gets home and discuss changing contact information.

When, in my mind, I try to imagine having this conversation with him, I can imagine a few responses I might get -

He says it doesn't matter.
He says he wants me to figure it out for myself.
He ignores me.
He changes the subject to something else.

My point is that, based on what he has said thus far, I thought I was supposed to be figuring things out on my own and taking initiative. He would think that me waiting to talk to him about it would = me asking him to tell me what to do.

I really don't mean that in a disrespectful way. When I try to envision it, those are the responses I would most likely predict.

I am also having trouble knowing when I have his enthusiastic agreement on something. I originally kept FB and the FB friends I had because that was what we had discussed.

I am starting to think you're right. I would have been punished either way. Because he isn't sure he wants to recover.

You have certainly done the right thing, and I applaud your fast action. So many FWW drag their feet on getting these things done (myself included). These things are basic EPs, and should've been done a long time ago. It is very obvious now, if it wasn't before, that you are serious about doing whatever it takes to recover your marriage.

It is also more evident that your husband is not by his reaction.

He set it up where you could not win no matter what you did. He is not interested in recovery. He is going to punish you no matter what you do.

You did the right thing, ydnAccord.

I need to retract a couple of statements....

1. I said I kept the FB friends I had because that's what we discussed. We discussed keeping FB. We never went through and evaluated each FB friend. Maybe that would have been a more reasonable option. But I don't think he'll have any objections to FB being gone.

2. I said he would be home later and we could talk about this tonight. Being completely honest, I am exhausted. I know without a doubt he is completely drained from a rough few days of travel. I think I will retract that plan and opt to get some sleep tonight instead. I think that would be best for both of us tonight. I just didn't want to put out a false impression that this was going to be discussed and then I go to sleep instead.

No, it's really not a more reasonable option.
You've had two affairs now. You cannot afford to take any risk, and Facebook is a very big risk for even the healthiest of marriages. It's a breeding ground for affairs. That's why getting rid of social networking is a basic EP.

BTW, markos and I "evaluated" the facebook friends we had. I still had an affair there. It's simply too big a risk for you to take, especially with the fragile state your marriage is currently in.

Your husband thinks taking risks in marriage is OK. That is why he is traveling now, and why he thinks keeping Facebook around is acceptable. Look at where taking risks has gotten your marriage. If he isn't willing to put in place common sense protections that both of you need to observe, then he isn't willing to save this marriage. He is going to continue with meaningless mind reading exercises and love busting until you have no choice but to separate. His desire to find ways to punish you appears to be his primary motivation right now.

I think this EP issue is an acid test for your relationship. There is no justification for resisting common sense EPs. If he doesn't start getting serious about protecting your marriage, then I don't think you have a marriage worth protecting.

I agree. And plans for her to be an Army officer while MM is a Navy officer is beyond taking the risks referred to above. There are so many love busters on both sides in this marriage and so much resistance to eliminating them, I don't see much hope for them.

AM

I admittedly have not read this entire post, but I have read about your many familiar sounding actions. I am the betrayed spouse who has been dealing with the problems brought into my marriage from my WH. It has been four and a half years since D day for me. We have tried many of the steps in marriage builders and frankly the pain of the past is so overwhelmingly great because of the betrayal of trust, the utter disrespect for me,and the constant reminder by just being in the presence of my spouse that surviving the affair has been almost impossible and continues to seem impossible.

I read your posts and your desperation for recovery of your marriage and frankly it actually irritates me. Perhaps I'm not allowed to be so frank on this forum, but I think it's important. My husband, like you, wants more than anything for this relationship to be restored. I certainly would like for this to occur too, but honestly when I think about his previous actions and now see his desperation like yours, I am sickened because he chose to enter into an affair and to betray me and wreck our relationship. We were not having problems at the time of his affair he was just intrigued by his former high school sweetheart because she asked him if he'd consider getting back together...this was fifteen years after they had broken up when he was 35 and he felt he had unresolved feelings for her and needed to explore this. Crazy, right!

Now try to put your husband's shoes on for a few minutes and live in the mental anguish and hell that is occurring in his mind everyday, knowing that the person he pledged his life to love, honor and respect, said "no thanks" I'd rather try out these other folks for awhile and see if I like them better. Suddenly you realize you reached into this person's life and robbed them of their love for you and because you found that what you had with your husband was better than any of the affairs (or maybe you didn't, again I haven't read the post completely) you want it back and you want him to recover and respect you. I get the whole grace thing, believe me I've struggled with this. I'm a believer, but it all flies out the window when you've given your heart, body and emotions to this person who carelessly walked all over them twice. You always feel second and you always ask yourself "why should I throw pearls before swine?" When you've given your best and instead the wayward spouse, who formerly was not, decides to pursue their own selfish desires and then ultimately wants you back, wants to restore the marriage, and wants you, the betrayed spouse, to love them. It seems crazy right? I wish everyday that I had more of a heart like Jesus and that I could return to the amazing love we once had and feel what I once felt, but something changes inside after your spouse cheats on you. The armour of safety goes up, the walls are built high, and the boundaries are very wide.

I'm not sure what happened between you and your husband after your first affair but it sounds like he was able to trust you and extended his hand to move forward with you. What he received in return was another hand slapping.

I have said many hurtful things to my husband and been very hurtful in my actions towards him. It's not because I want to be hurtful but because the pain of what has happened is so deep that I'm almost incapable of operating civilly. This isn't who I am or have ever been, but anger does very strange things to a person. I've never been an angry person or really harbored any anger until this occurred. The amount of anger I feel is so overwhelming that I don't believe there are enough modalities available to me to express them in a healthy way.

I also understand what your husband says about "you get to experience" all the benefits of the recovery and that you don't seem remorseful. I have struggled with this as well. My WH tore my life apart at every level and yet I see him walking around with a big smile on his face, happy, enjoying life. And, I walk around feeling like the abused dog-whincing, reacting to triggers, trying to survive daily from what happened even though it was five years ago.

I'm sorry you made the choices you did because I know that even if you are walking around like my husband seemingly appearing happy on the outside you also hurt on the inside over what you did. I will tell you it is very difficult for me to see my WH exhibit what appears to be shear joy at just living because my joy when around him is completely void. Joy only comes to me when I am away from him and I don't have to see or feel what I have experienced with him.

Lastly, the discovery of your most recent affair seems to be rather new if I'm reading this correctly-August 2013. This is only December. Expecting him to respond to you positively does not seem to exhibit true patience and love for him. My WH husband used to say things to me like "I've been being nice to you for six weeks and I see no change." What do you expect...you've ripped my life apart it's just not that easy to pick yourself up and turn to the wayward spouse and say "that's okay honey, I know you really love me and would rather be with me and everything will return to normal." His impatience with me has probably caused more setbacks and damage and continued to hurt me. Remember he didn't ask you to cheat on him, so you are probably out of line asking him to respond positively to any of your efforts in the game. He maybe can't even wrap his mind around the fact that you cheated a second time.

I hope I have not offended you, but rather shed some light on what it is like to be the betrayed spouse and the true hell of living through being betrayed. I know we are all vulnerable to temptation, but I hope that our honor is greater than the temptation and our care for others is greater than ourselves.

BW
Married 2009
D-Day August 2009

KQ2, there is no end of information from betrayed spouses on this forum who are willing to tell this poster about the pain of betrayal.

I have read your two threads, and I am sorry for what your H did and the effects on you. I have suffered similar effects through a 3.5-year recurring PA and a lingering 5-year long distance EA, and I do know what resentment feels like.

The problem is that if both spouses want to rebuild the marriage, then they need to follow the MB programme fully - not just "many of the steps in marriage builders" as you write.

Both spouses in this marriage have had personal advice from Dr Harley via the radio show, and their best hope for recovery is to follow it to the letter. Your post, with its expression of irritation, offers nothing to help them stay on the MB path.

I note that in your case, your H had a sexual relationship with an old girlfriend throughout your dating period, and she had an abortion during that time. You would not have married him had you known that. When you came here, every single person urged you to consider leaving your H, having found out about the relationship four months into your marriage, but you haven't done so three years later, it seems. That is your choice to make, but if you are still feeling destroyed by that affair, this is proof that the course of action you have been taking is not correct or sufficient for recovery. What are your plans for the future?

My advice to you is to contact Dr H directly at the radio show for advice as this couple has done, then follow that advice.

ydn, I noticed your husband has posted a time or two but we haven't had any updates from either of you. How are things going?

Hi Marriage Builders -

Quick update - DH and I are still together. I feel that we are making progress toward recovery. I have issues which I am still working on with my own counselor. DH also has his own counselor who he is working with. But I would have to say, for the most part, we genuinely enjoy our time together and have a lot of things we are looking forward to. The reason I am posting today is that I have a couple of questions.

This month will mark the one year date since I stupidly went home with OM. I know this is going to be rough. And I have been racking my brain trying to think of how best to deal. I certainly don't want to give the date any more importance or significance in our lives. But at the same time I feel that to ignore it would also be disrespectful to my husband. What have other people done to ease the passage of that awful one year date? ( I refuse to call it an anniversary...)

Thanks for your comments.

I would ignore it and never bring it up again. Dr. Harley is very clear that the affair should not be brought up again. All that does is bring the unpleasantness of the past into the present.

Glad to hear you are doing well! Thanks for the update!

we sat down and said let's not let that day take anymore from us and plan something we like doing together and enjoying each other�� we have worked hard at taking back the losses and making some great memories to replace any negative thinking.
My WH said he wanted to end the affair in every way��.he texted all day about the plans we had, he got all dressed up and made me feel so special��ended the night in each other's arms, all I thought about was him and his effort for me���
Just keep doing everything right even when it's tough just don't let the affair take anything ��
It's all about the effort you make what history and memories you will have take control and have the best life you can have for both of you���you won't regret any of it��.

Yes, ignore it! Bringing up the affair at this point would be detrimental to your recovery. Put it in the past and leave it there. Concentrate your efforts on good quality UA time