Your husband's overall strategy is pretty clear. He wants to punish you. He thinks that will even the score.

Affairs are disasters all the way around. The idea that that you are getting all the good cookies and leaving him the crumbs is so flawed, I don't even know where to start. In our recovery, I was the most hurt, but my wife experienced great pain and crushing guilt. Who got the best deal? Neither of us. The lesson we learned was that we need to be proactive in our marriage so that this NEVER happens again. We have extraordinary precautions in place that make another repeat impossible. We have worked very hard to rebuild our romantic relationship. Like you, my wife has had two affairs, too. Your husband thinks this situation is so unique none of us can understand. He is wrong. I, too, had a horrible time with "mind movies" of the affair. I understand.

I had a close friend of mine who told me I was letting my wife off too easily. His wife had an affair. That friend has since divorced for the third time and is now remarried in what is technically an affairage, since he started dating this woman before his divorce was final. There is one narrow path that leads to recovery. Your husband is not on that path, yet.

If your husband continues in his present strategy, you are going to have to separate. You should not tolerate the abuse. Abuse is wrong, and nothing, not even something as bad as an affair, justifies it.

Thought I would post an update. We had a great holiday. DH made an incredible Thanksgiving dinner and DD and I helped. We really enjoyed the day and each other�s company. We went for a run, had dinner, and spent the day together. Saturday we all went to the movies together and had a great time. When we left it felt to me like we were more in love than we�d been in a long time.

Unfortunately that changed earlier today. The way I understand it, I was engaging in a couple of love busters. DH had asked us a while ago not to put any files on the hard drive of our computer. Well, I forgot and did exactly that. So I had to move the files back to where they were supposed to go. This was (understandably) annoying to him. On top of that, while I was sitting there at the computer I was also engaging in another annoying habit. I have a habit of rubbing my ear when I�m thinking or reading something. Those two things seemed to put him in a funk for most of the rest of the day. The reason these behaviors are so annoying to him is that they are seen as very child-like.

I could tell at the time something was bothering him. I went over to him and sat next to him on the couch. I asked if there was something he wanted to talk to me about. After a while he said that he wanted to start throwing out some stuff we had. Mainly things that got destroyed in Hawaii or things that brought bad memories. We tore down our desk that was falling apart, and I went around the house and got rid of anything that I thought might remind him of Hawaii.

After that, we went for a run. I could tell he was still in a funk, but it I think the run seemed to go okay. We�d talked about doing Christmas shopping after we got back. He told me he was going to take a shower, but when I went upstairs to check on I found him sound asleep on the floor beside the bed. I could tell he was exhausted so I didn�t try to have him wake up. I gave him a pillow and made sure he had some water and a couple of cough drops nearby as he has been sick for a couple of weeks now.

When I went back to check on him again he was in bed and had showered. I lay down next to him and told him I was sorry that I was the reason he was sad. I told him I wanted to be the person who makes him happy. I don�t ever want to be the reason he feels sad or angry ever again.

He said me sleeping with other people didn�t make him sad. He said he was sad because of the kind of person he is. The kind of person who has a wife who sleeps around on him and he doesn�t expect better. He said me sleeping with other people made him angry, but not sad. He said he had trouble looking at himself in the mirror.

He then explained how he doubted I could ever be the kind of person who could meet his emotional needs, as I have not been able to in the past. He says he feels he has always had to spell things out for me, and even then I fail to meet them adequately. He says he does not like to give examples because I tend to get too caught up in the examples and miss the point. He says he would just like me to figure some things out on my own. He said he never asked to be my father. But that is how it feels to him when he has to tell me specifically what he needs. He wondered if I might not be intelligent enough to figure them out on my own, or maybe I am just too thoughtless a person.

He believes I had the affairs as a means to hurt him. He also believes that I had the affairs as a way to end the marriage. Neither of these is true. But I know that does not lessen the damage or change the past.

Truth be told, I feel lost. I feel there have been times in the past when he has not been forthcoming with me about what needs are important to him. He grew up in a large family with no money and parents who fought constantly, so he grew up not having a lot of his needs met. Sometimes I feel he downplays how important certain needs actually are to him. On the other hand, I can understand how he doesn�t want to have to spell everything out for me. He says he is not sure I can ever really be a thoughtful person. I am afraid that I will try my hardest but in light of what I�ve done, I will never be able to make it up to him. He says he doesn�t think I could ever give him just compensation for what I�ve done.

I am very concerned for him. Saturday we are happy together, and by Sunday evening he is talking of separation again. I am afraid of what these swings in his mental state are doing to his overall health. I don�t want to separate, but I am worried that might be the only way to help him stabilize? Right now he is taking an antidepressant but says he really doesn�t want to try a different one. He did listen to the radio show that was aired last Monday when I was a caller. I believe he plans to be a caller on today�s show.

As always, I am grateful for any advice I can use to try to repair the harm I have done. Thanks for reading.

Hi ydn, I can relate to your rubbing your ear possibly sending your hubby over the edge right now. My H and I had a false recovery, and I have noticed that now, I am practically intolerant to the little annoying habits that my husband had for the past 33 years. HOWEVER�it is our job as the BS to complain rather than criticize in the form of SD, DJs, or AOs. It sounds to me that your H is starting to learn to do this (complain), and that YOU are learning to adjust to those complaints. Good stuff!

Another good thing! This recovery is a long uphill climb made up of zillions of baby steps toward each other. By your throwing out the triggers, that is providing protection for your H. Yay!

As a BS, I can say that I can never hear this often enough. If H says it ten times per day, it helps me each time. There are a few rare times where my H over-says it, and I prefer to focus on the present at the moment, but for the most part since I am still hurting so deeply, it helps me to hear it. Though I don't often enough tell him that it helps�at the time when he says it, it often "diffuses" my grief a bit, rather than providing real comfort in that moment. But it DOES HELP!

I totally get it. I totally felt (and feel) that same humiliation. It is truly the most traumatic feeling, and the word "betrayed" doesn't quite do it justice. HOWEVER�one month out after our (6 month) false recovery�and one month into our true R�I am already starting to go back to the "sad" feelings rather than anger. Sad because we wasted so much time in our lives NOT having the great M that we could have had. More on that in the next paragraph.

Well the part about wondering if you are intelligent enough is a DJ and a LoveBuster, so won't accomplish anything. However, he DID tell you that he would like to see you accomplish some things on your own. I totally get that. I suspect (and I haven't read his thread in a while) that he is asking for more ACTIONS again.

ydn, after the layers and LAYERS of deception have fallen away in my own M, I often feel as if I am laying on the battleground in war somehow still alive, but feeling surreal as I look around and everything around me is dead.

My H is learning now to TAKE CHARGE when I get that look on my face, and he seems to have an arsenal of things to help to pull me back up. I see REAL CHANGE, and I am astounded.

I WOULD NEVER HAVE GUESSED that this could happen. I felt previously, once I truly saw how ingrained and evil my H's A had been, I thought that there was no hope. My H had NEVER in 33 years been a very giving man. He had NEVER had boundaries against the OS. After his A and then our false recovery, my blinders were OFF, and I truly felt as if there was NO WAY that he could change an entire lifestyle of habits that were not in sync with what I view (now) as "marriage material".

My H is now (for the last month) right there with me *every* *single* *time* when I get too close to the edge of that rabbit hole (roller coaster). We don't talk about the A (except for him apologizing again), but as for that arsenal that I spoke of�it changes, and what is successful one time may not be the next�he holds my hand and prays, he gives me a mini massage, he gets me out to the car and we drive someplace south of here AWAY from the scene of the crime, we read MB together, he asks me a probing question about my feelings, he talks about his plans for the future, he makes nutritious food, he brings me a cup of tea or coffee, I could go on and on�you'll need to learn these things on your own as to what actually HELPS your H get through the next ten minutes while he is suffering so much.

The point of it is that my H really GOT my pain this time, and he SHOWS me by his ACTIONS that he empathizes. I just need help getting back over that edge, and then I can take it from there. I don't WANT to feel that horrible pain, and so as soon as I can feel just a bit of relief, I can pull myself back together. THAT HELP from my H is what is (finally) giving me a bit of hope!

I totally did the same thing. I was not good at all about asking for what I needed. I was a giver. I was head over heels in love with my H and I sacrificed. We all know what Dr. H has to say about sacrifice. However, going back now and talking about the past won't help. So we need to learn to be radically honest from this point forward. I am already getting better at it, but I couldn't even SEE my own failings until my H actually came out of the fog. You sound like you are now learning to provide ACTIONS to your H, and therefore he is starting to think about what your M really was, and what he will need it to become in order for him to stay in it. Another good thing!!

My H has said the same thing. There was nothing that I could answer him as far as providing security. I truly did not know if I could stick it out. I still don't know for certain�but I DO know that I see hope now in the last month.

This is a mountain, ydn, and we are at the bottom of a LONG uphill climb. The first order of importance is putting totally secure EP's into place. It took us until 30 days ago to actually accomplish that, and truly ALL of our prior "work" was for naught without those extreme barriers in place. Is your H certain that your EP's are secure enough now?

As far as "making it up" to him, he's right�nothing will make it up�BUT once you've been meeting his needs consistently and shoveling in those LoveBank deposits, and once he starts to FEEL the results�I am praying that he will feel the genuine hope. Dr. Harley says that once we are back in Romantic Love, that we will be focusing automatically on the present and the future. Every step forward is a step closer to that day!

ydnAccord, your husband is continuing his strategy of abuse. It is time to consider separating yourself from him.

Unfortunately, there is very little hope for a wife winning her husband back -- unless he is willing to put forth the effort to recover, you have no hope. And, on top of that, his abuse his damaging his chances of ever recovering.

He is only staying to punish you.

These are all disrespectful judgements and dwelling on mistakes of the past. He will need to agree to not treat you this way any more. Will he? If he won't, there is no hope for recovery.

Hon, what you're doing right now is Plan A. Continuing to show him this kind of unconditional love while he punishes you will be detrimental to your emotional, mental and physical health.

You are not going to win him back by allowing him to continue to abuse you. You need to separate until he decides for himself that he's going to do what it takes to recover.

ydn, I'm more concerned about what these behavioral swings are doing to your mental health. Your husband is continuing to abuse you. Tolerating it will not make anything better in your marriage.

I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and Joyce immediately and let them know about this behavior from him. They need this information in order to have a clear picture for advising him and you.


ydn, don't permit him to continue bringing up the affair. It will only worsen the situation. If he brings it up, you need to leave the room/discussion. He is welcome to talk to you as much as he wants, BUT ONLY ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.


I would make him getting correct antidepressants a condition for remaining with him. As long as he continues to abuse you, he is not safe for you to be around, and none of your marital problems can be resolved. He is free to choose to treat his depression or not treat it, but if he wants to remain with you, he needs to do whatever it takes to stop abusing you.


I think it's important to understand that his choice to abuse you is not caused by the harm you have done. You can't stop his abuse by repairing the situation. You cannot solve your marital problems until his abuse stops, plain and simple.

Let me explain it this way:
You are responsible 100% for your decision to be unfaithful. But both of you are equally responsible for the state of the marriage prior to your affair. And he is 100% responsible for his decision to be abusive.

Your husband can single-handedly destroy your marriage at this point, even though you are willing to do whatever it takes to recover, by continuing to bring up the affair and continuing to abuse you. So far it looks like that is what he plans to do. We have seen this happen several times on this forum. It is very unfortunate, but you should not feel responsible for his choice to abuse you, any more than he is responsible for your choice to have an affair.

Nothing justifies an affair in marriage. Nothing justifies abuse in marriage, either. Neglect doesn't justify an affair. Abuse doesn't justify abuse. An affair doesn't justify abuse, either.

Please write the Harleys, and please keep posting updates here.

QFT.

Don't continue to tolerate this kind of treatment from him.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of ydnAccord's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3

Thank you Markos, Prisca, BlindSighted, and BrainHurts for your responses.

I did email Joyce with a carbon copy of my post on the morning of 12/1 before my DH called in to the show. So Dr. H and Joyce were aware of how things were going when they spoke with him.

I listened to the broadcast a couple of times and took some notes. I have some responses to what they talked about, but for the most part I feel like Dr. H hit the nail on the head.

I'll post more of my thoughts later... Right now I'm waiting for DH to get home. We've got a great evening planned and I can't wait to see him!

ydn,

He said me sleeping with other people didn�t make him sad. He said he was sad because of the kind of person he is. The kind of person who has a wife who sleeps around on him and he doesn�t expect better. He said me sleeping with other people made him angry, but not sad. He said he had trouble looking at himself in the mirror.

I think you are doing a good job trying to understand how your BH feels, I've not seen too many WW who face up to what they have caused in their BHs.

I think the feeling of worthlessness is greater for BHs since they are often so alone and have no one, except the wives who betrayed them, to confide with.

God Bless
Gamma

It started again the night of 12/7. DH and I had emailed each other during the day. It was Friday and I think we were both looking forward to spending a great weekend together. I got done with work early on Friday and texted him that I was on my way home. The weather was nasty and raining and cold. I knew Saturday was supposed to be nice but then it was supposed to be cold and snowy Sunday.

He asked what I would like to do, and so I was thinking out loud, Okay, it�s nasty this evening, so maybe we should get a short workout in, stay home and get rid of some of these leftovers, that way we could go for a run and go to dinner Saturday when the weather is nicer. He seemed to be in agreement with this, but shortly after that he sat down on the couch and I noticed an all too familiar look on his face. It�s the �I hate my life� look.

So I came over and sat by him.
He said that sometimes he gets triggered, but sometimes the bad feelings seem to come out of nowhere. I asked if there was something else he�d rather do? Maybe if he didn�t want to work out maybe he was tired and would rather take a nap? At this point he really wasn�t talking to me that much. I am thinking it was because he was trying to not be disrespectful or bring up the affair. I chose not to workout. Instead I got started on laundry and housecleaning in the hope that would give us more time to spend together Saturday, since Friday wasn�t looking promising.

He lay on the couch for a while and after a couple of hours asked me why I hadn�t worked out. He said he didn�t want to be an anchor to me. I told him he was not and anchor to me. I answered honestly that I had not worked out because I felt that me working out was going to bother him.

He did sleep upstairs with me that night but we didn�t get any UA time in.

Saturday morning he was lying in bed awake and I came and lay down behind him. I put my hand on his shoulder and said �I�m sorry you�re having a bad day.� He said �It�s more like a bad life, but thanks for your sentiment.� He did not say this in a mean or sarcastic way.

I asked if he�d consider going for a run with me. He said no.
I said, �It might help you feel better.� He said �I like laying in bed depressed.�

I said �That�s too bad, because I enjoy running much more when I�m with you.� He didn�t respond.

After a couple of minutes I got up and got dressed.

I said �Are you sure you won�t reconsider?� He shook his head no.

As I was leaving the room he said �I�ll be gone when you get back.�

I said �Where are you going?�

He said �Wherever I want to go. That�s what you�re doing.�
I said �No, I�m not.� I did not say this in a disrespectful way.

I did go for a run. I came back home and hauled a load of trash to the dump. DH fixed a doorknob and microwave handle that had needed fixing for a while. I finished up laundry and housecleaning and DH took DD to get some pics for her photography class. We still were not talking.

Later that evening I mentioned I was thinking of going to church Sunday morning. It was something I�d brought up earlier in the week when we were on good terms and he seemed open to the discussion. I brought it up and asked if he might want to go with me. He said no.

So this morning I got up and went to church. I did talk to him a little before I went but I didn�t ask him again to go with me.

It was the first time I�d been to church in about 14 years. I went to a Catholic church near our house. Part of the message was about remorse and repentance. About how remorse is useful in bringing about change, but ultimately it is a temporary feeling that we have when we have hurt someone or done something wrong. We can actually get stuck in remorse and it keeps us from moving forward. However, the change of heart that comes with true repentance can help us to heal and move forward. I felt like I was definitely meant to hear it.

When I got home I offered to iron whatever clothes he might need for his upcoming travel. I had ironed his uniform already but he won�t be needing it until later in the week. He said he didn�t need anything ironed. I�d like to meet other more intimate EN�s but right now he won�t let me.

I asked if I could go grocery shopping with him, and he declined. When I asked why, he said �It was miserable last week going with you.� He remarked �I�ll do all the things that have to be done, and you could just continue doing whatever the h3ll you want.�

I said �If you continue in this line of thinking, it will destroy everything.� I did not say this in an angry tone. I realize it probably came off as a DJ. But at the time, this was my honest thought. If he continues thinking this way, it will destroy any chance we have together.

He commented again about how I just wanted to do whatever I want and how I don�t talk to him.

And I said, �But, when you lie in bed staring at the wall not talking to me doesn�t help find a solution, either.�

He said �I have a bunch of stuff going on in my head and you just want it to be over. Well screw you. It�s not over.� He left to go grocery shopping.

When he returned I thanked him for taking care of the shopping and gave him a hug. I told him I was sorry that I�d gone for a run without him.

He said �It�s not just the run. It�s everything. Friday, you had other plans.� I said that I had thought we were in agreement about how to spend Friday night but then he just sat down on the couch and wouldn�t talk to me. I said if you weren�t in agreement with how to spend the evening you could have told me, but you didn�t. I said I feel like you�re putting me in situations where I can�t win. You refuse to talk to me or do anything with me. So then whatever I decide to do gets labeled as IB.

He didn�t say anything and just walked downstairs. I followed him and asked �You�re not going to talk to me?� (I didn�t say it angrily or in a demanding way. I�m trying to be very careful about that.)

He replied that he didn�t want to say anything disrespectful. I said, �I respect you for not saying something disrespectful, but I�d like you to talk to me.� He shook his head no.
I know that he is depressed. But I am starting to think that we are not going to get to a place where we can recover if his depression is not treated. He seems to cycle up and down about every five days or so.

Don�t get me wrong. He has a very good reason to be depressed. And I know that depression is very normal at this point in recovery. He has suffered an incredible loss. I am trying to be sensitive to that. But I feel the depression is keeping us from making lasting progress. Every time we do, it comes along and knocks the wind out of his sails. I�d like to help him move forward (and stay there). But every time I try, it feels to him like I am not acknowledging the pain I caused.

I re-read Ch. 17 of HWSW. How to Negotiate When You�re Not Enthusiastic About Anything. I am wondering if we should first focus on getting help for his depression before we can work on recovery? Thanks for your thoughts, MB�ers.

Yes, emphatically.

I agree. In our case, we both were on medication for depression. It was a terrible time.

If I understood correctly, your husband is travelling this week without you. I would not be surprised if his current behavior is related to this.

My H and I charted our UA time for 84 consecutive weeks. Anytime we dipped below 20 hours/week, we both would feel badly. Of course, your husband hasn't left yet, but he is mentally getting ready to be separated, withdrawing.

AM

If your husband is open to changing or increasing his medication, he really might feel better in time. With meds for depression, the patient has to pay close attention to his/her feelings and mood and be open with the doctor, so the meds can be adjusted. Everyone is a little bit different in their medicine needs.

Many men have a really tough time using meds for just about anything, and depression often carries a stigma, especially in the military. My H had to be on depression meds a couple of different times in his adult life, and they were enormously helpful. It took a couple of weeks to start working. He resisted the notion at first, but he was finally convinced to give ADs a try. Once he was able to get his life in better order, start exercising, eating better, and work got better, he no longer had to be on them.

And anger management. He should not be expressing himself to you by swearing. Not even "whatever the hell you want."

And if he's not willing to do these things, don't hang on to him too much longer. He needs to either get help, or you need to get out. Your chances of recovery are being destroyed each day he chooses to stay in limbo -- you cannot continue to take the emotional beating.

Run, ydnAccord.
Your husband is not serious. His posts make it clear that he has no intention to stop hurting you. File for divorce and run.

Um, before filing for divorce you might want to write to Dr H again, ydnAccord.

Just a thought.

Dr. Harley is very clear what a wife should do if her husband is unwilling to get on board, stop the abuse, and build a romantic marriage.

But... I sometimes think that this is part of just compensation. The fact that I stay engaged and stay in he relationship and continue to work on it. Even through the difficult days when DH withdraws or says hurtful things.

I mean, it was my actions that caused the pain. Shouldn't I be the one who is there for him when he needs help?

To use the analogy of the tower again, shouldn't I be patient and wait? I would like to believe that one day if I can show him I can be the person he needs, he will stop having the urge to tear it down and then we can make some real progress.

What does it say about me and my commitment if I just walk away? I hurt him and I'm not even going to stick around to help him work his way out of his pain. How can I say I'm serious about recovery if I can't handle facing the damage I've done?

It is not a demonstration of commitment to tolerate an abusive husband. It is a demonstration of ENABLING, which is harmful to your marriage and to him. It falls under the category of "unconditional love" which is bad for marriages. It says that you care enough about your marriage to walk away before he destroys any semblance of feelings you might have for him. Your husband is purposely destroying your feelings for him. If you allow that to happen, the marriage will be over.

Just compensation NEVER involves behavior that is bad for the marriage. If it is bad for the marriage, then it is certainly not compensation. And abuse is not good for your marriage.