After a semi-brief struggle (and a long period of marital unhappiness for my W), I reached the point where I asked for a divorce this morning. My W (Win Bin) and I had been posting our troubles in the Infidelity ---> General Questions forum, and we had been in counseling, but it became obvious last night that she is not going to give up her flirting with men on the internet. She left some things open on her computer and I found out three things that finally tipped the scale...firstly, she was getting ready to go back to having phone sex, something she had promised to stop doing. Second, she had finally reached the point where she was ready to meet OM #2 in real life for sex. And third, and worst of all, she confirmed in an email something that I have suspected all along...that's she planning on leaving me as soon as the school year ends. She wants to wait until school is out so the kid's work won't be effected this year.

I was expecting to be angered, or shocked by reading these things. But a sense of contentment, almost bliss settled in instead. I had known for awhile that things weren't really working out, and I had kind of known that there was going to be no way around the wall of resentment she had built towards me. She's been miserable because she wants to flirt and make love to other guys and not be tied down anymore to a man she stopped loving years ago. I've been miserable because I still love her deeply, and I tried so hard to change to be more of the man I used to be, the one she fell in love with. But it was too late, and I guess there's a certain satisfaction that sets in when you finally realize that and let go.

We have a lot of work ahead of us. We need to do some fix up work on the house so we can sell it. We need to work out living arrangements. I need to decide if I'm going to stay here and live in a [censored] apartment, or chuck it all and go back east to live with my folks. Neither decision is appetizing, but those are the only options I can think off. I feel really bad for my kids, who are the sweetest, smartest little tykes and really deserved better in parents. It's always the little ones who have to suffer the stupidity and selfishness of the "grown-ups".

Anyways just wanted to dip my feet in on this board. I'm going to be posting a lot here to vent the feelings that will be coming up as I deal with this. I've been in this relationship for 22 years, since I was 16, and I've never broken up with anyone before. Dating looks like an impossible minefield from here, but I will eventually venture out there again, simply because I need to have someone in my life to share it with. But first the baggage from this mess needs to be cleaned up and dealt with.

Any cute single girls out there in So. Cal. interested in a monogamous man who makes a good salary and cleans the house without being asked to? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So, the W comes to me yesterday afternoon and says "you win". She doesn't want to get a divorce because of the children. I hate the fact that she spins my finding out what she was hiding from me on her emails/chat into me trying to control her. She always brings up my past behaviour when I call her on her current behavior. But I'm sick of her using that tactic, and I told her she was just spinning. Yes, my behavior in the past (excessive videogaming, long vacations with friends) was destructive to the marriage. But I've stopped those things...she has not yet made any effort to stop the chatting and flirting.

It frustrates me to no end, because she's always complaining that I never give her time to get over her withdrawal from OM #1. Last night I asked her how the hell she expected to ever START on withdrawal if she keeps chatting, meeting more men, and giving all the feelings we need to have in between US to these random guys. I told her we need to review Plan A again and she needs to stop chatting, so that she can get on with her withdrawal and we can then start really working on us again. It's so frustrating that we are worse off at three months than we were after D-day. It's like all the sh*t we've been through has been for nothing. I also called her on the fact that she is using chat as a passive-aggressive way to get back at me...she does this harmful stuff to the marriage, then accuses me of controlling her for not letting her chat. Therefore, she gets to fulfill her needs, AND she gets to put me in the bad guy role just because I don't want her to chat. It really sucks and this emotional abuse is unfair!

What hurts the most is that I think she does still have some feelings for me, but there are so many issues piled up in her head I don't know if she'll be able to come back to me before something irreversible happens and the marriage goes beyond saving. I want to give her the time she needs but she refuses to do her part. She said last night she would stop chatting, but it was through clenched teeth, and I know that if she wants to keep doing it she will keep doing it, despite what she tells me. But I still love her and I'll probably keep giving her chances until she either straightens out or has a PA and I find out about it. I wish I had some resources to provide to her to help her stop her chat/men addiction.

This is at least instructional, because I see how selfish I was when I was commiting my destructive behavior. I don't ever want to do that to her again now that I see how much this hurts.

/vent

Hi B.

Your wife sounds like she has some serious self esteem issues. Has she ever been to any individual counselling?

I wish I had more to offer you, but I don't. I just saw the title of your post and it wrenched on my heart. I'm so very sorry.

How are your children dealing with the tension in your marriage?


~ StillLovingHim

SLH - My wife and I are in MC, and I am in IC for my issues. I think she does need IC, but we haven't really talked about it. Our MC has figured out that she has a lot of issues to work out, and she's going to start meeting with her solo one week and then with both of us the next week. I'm hoping that will help.

I'm not sure if she has self-esteem issues or not. Her main issues appear to be anger with me, dissatisfaction with our marriage, along with an addiction to chat and a need to be with other men, since we've only been with each other. I know there's some family issues too, mainly with her dad; the counselor has been going into it but it's still a little cloudy to me in terms of how much effect it has on her. If I listen solely to my W's words, I'm the only cause of misery in her life.

The children are still pretty out of the loop. We are not yellers and we go behind closed doors to have our discussions. I know the kids notice that, and I think our son was a little peeved about it yesterday, since he was acting out like crazy. I think my daughter is also a little aware things are not right, because she has become very close and "snuggly" to me lately. We discussed telling the children about the D when it was "in play" over the weekend but she agreed that she would stay in the house until school ends (mid-June) and that we will not tell the kids anything until then. I have no idea how they are going to take it. I suspect my son will be seemingly unaffected, but it will show up down the road in some sort of behavior...not exactly sure how it will manifest, he's a strange bird, much like his dad. ;-) I know my daughter will be utterly crushed, and that's the blow I fear the most. I don't want to let either one down, but she is much more emotional and fragile. She's the one the W and I worry about becoming a teenager. ;-)

I don't know, I don't want them to ever know anything was wrong. I want to repair our marriage and be the parents they need us to be. But I refuse to live with an adultress, or in a marriage without love. It just sucks waking up each day and having your first thought be "sucks to be me", ya know?

B,

Wow some of what you write sounds a little bit too familiar to me. I don't really have any wise words to say but try to not get too frustrated & keep on with the MC and hopefully things will turn around. Sounds like there is hope so don't give up!

Cheers,

Miker

So the W and I are back on Plan A, I guess. She hasn't gone back to review the pertinent SAA chapters yet, but I have. And now I'm depressed again. I feel that the success or failure of our Plan A relies on two things: me reining in my selfishness in wanting her to get over withdrawal faster, and her staying off chat so that the withdrawal can actually start.

As for the former, it's very hard for me. I have worked to improve myself but I'm noticing that I get down if she doesn't encourage me. And there's no encouragement coming from her, as she is deep in depression and also is pretty hostile towards me at times. I should be able to just understand that and find reinforcement within myself. It's a struggle within...I've always been very pouty and needy, and I just need to get over myself. And it doesn't help that the paranoia bugs are running around inside my head, due to some major trust issues with her. Whenever she blows another promise to me via her chatting, then I lose the control I have to work so hard to maintain, and she just gets another reason to blame ME, when it's her actions causing the problems!

Which brings up issue 2: her promise to stop chatting. To put it plainly, I don't believe her. I know that she will keep from doing it when I'm around. We even agreed last night to tell each other exactly what we will be doing if one of us needs to get on the computer. But she makes every promise not to chat through clenched teeth, and she's now taking to making remarks like "watching TV is getting boring", and "we don't have to spend all our time together". Well, according to Plan A, we do. We need to come up with more things to do at night that don't involve the computers, but, other than reading, I can't come up with anything. I also know that she can still chat at work, and additionally, she will probably be jumping on every chance she gets at home when I am not there. This is a major freakout source for me as I'm going away next week for 10 days, so I know she's not going to have any willpower once I am out of the house and 1/2 way across the country. She has once again changed her passwords, and I'm just too certain that she will be going right back to her secret life sooner rather than later.

I guess my fear does tie into the controlling nature of my personality. I want her to stop chatting so that she can work on her withdrawal and we can eventually work on us. She just interprets that as me making demands and me rushing her along. I can't make her see that I'm only asking her to do this because otherwise we are going to fail and we are going to get divorced, and she told me she doesn't want to do that to the kids. She spins everything into me being the bad guy and it just makes me want to give up at times. She can't seem to see that her self-destructiveness and lack of willpower is doing as much to ruin our marriage as my selfishness did.

Ugh...sometimes I just want out of this nightmare, but I helped to create it and there are no easy outs. I can't believe that the sweet woman I married has become a liar, filled with contempt for me, and with a massive depression clouding her usual sunny disposition on top of all of it. It's so tempting to just tell her she "wins", I give, and it's over. But I don't want to do that to my kids, and I still love her. I'm a fool for still loving her, but I know I will be getting over that if this goes on for another year. I really understand that about Plan A/Plan B now. I know that the next time I find her chatting/doing phone sex/planning a meeting I will be insisting on Plan B and that she move into her mom's house. And she's too stubborn right now to give up her men. Ugh, love is not worth this.

/vent

Boy - Your post makes it all sound soooooo easyyyyyyy.
It's like you have come to terms that your WW wants SF from many other men...How can you accept this and write so w/o anger???? I don't think I'll EVER get over the fact that my WH is having SF w/many MOW. I am ashamed of him....that he lies to me, them and mostly to himself...

What is wrong w/these people??? Have they no morals????

Your WW needs a good kick in the pants - whether you D or not - she is going to raise your children - they deserve to learn that a monogamous relationship is the "better way". My WH has 2 now grown children - but, his XW had a 13 year relationship w/a MM - what did this teach them???? His kids don't see anything wrong in the fact that he's cheating on me (yes, I'm only the step mother) with many MOW..,,That's scary....His D actually is friends w/one of the MOW and helps him plan his rendevous w/her...How's that for teaching your kids morals? right from wrong????

I hope you can keep your kids straight

Hugs

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> I can't believe she's asking for time to get over her "withdrawl" as she calls it from other men !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> and again I say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

My gosh man! Who does she think she is???

My WH was VERY selfish. The only day of the week he wasn't either at work, in the studio, or with his bandmates was Sunday, and sometimes he'd spend THAT whole day gaming.

But did I flirt with or sleep with other men??

NO !!!!

(And no, I don't look like a troll either so it wasn't for a lack of opportunity.)

Kind, caring, people here have reminded me that I don't need to put up with WH's crap.

And neither do you !! I'm not saying throw in the towel on your marriage, but good grief. She's gotta stop any contact with other men, seriously.

Any cute single girls out there in So. Cal. interested in a monogamous man who makes a good salary and cleans the house without being asked to?


p.s. You can do a lot better than someone who's not committed to you.

Too bad I don't live in Cali - j/k *wink*

Thanks, Tess. You put a smile on my face with that last one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

WW says--did he mention he was okay with the phone sex for a year, and knew about it, because it allowed him time to play video games while waiting for me to be ready to give him sex? Did he mention thats all that would get him off the pc? Did he mention he lied about how long his vacations with his friends were going to be because he knew that I would be pissed he was leaving the family for 10 days to ride roller coasters? Did he mention most of his vacation time was used for coasters and not his family? And that he didn't call for 2 days while he was gone? Did he mention it took 15yrs of marriage to finally get him to help around the house w/out being nagged? Did he mention he had a drug addiction for 10+ years of the marraige that I continually asked him to stop and finaly gave up asking?

NOt saying I am right, but there are 2 sides to every story. I have stopped chatting w/other men and am in withdrawl from the OM. I DID NOT SF with anyone, nor do i have plans to.

Sorry for infiltrating your post, i didnt want to do that.

WW

^Guilty of ALL of the above, Win. I should have put it in my post but I didn't want to re-hash it again. The whole story was originally posted here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

I have admitted my mistakes and I have apologized (repeatedly) for all of them. I have taken steps to fix these problems. As you know, I have quit smoking pot, I have stopped playing videogames, this next coaster trip will be my last, and I intend to call you every night when I am gone. I did not intentionally leave out the bad things I did, I was merely trying to avoid rehashing it.

All of the above does not mean I was the only one responsible for the problems in our relationship. We both know from MC that we both have problems with honest communication. Thank god we are now trying to work on them.

And no need to apologize for coming into my thread...I'm just glad you're talking. ;-)

Bass-

Win asked me on a thread over in the GQII section to chat with you about withdrawl and such. Not sure what advice I can offer offhand, but I personally DO agree with you about the need for ALL of the contact to end before you can do much on your M, and I've told her as much as well.


In fact, I've asked her to consider working out a PLAN for ending the contact...something that I get the impression that neither of you have considered up to this point. It's obvious that she doesn't have the self-control to make it happen on her own, based on what both of you have posted. So why not sit down and work out a way to MAKE it happen?

My thoughts are pretty simple. It appears that the majority of her issues center around the internet...so KILL the internet when you're not there. I can think of a few ways to do this, and this would be one way to prevent her from 'slipping' on the NC issues, at least via email and chats. Make it so that the only time EITHER of you are on the computer is when you're BOTH there...since the computer gaming was an issue for you. Also, setup monitoring on the phone use as well, to ensure that there are no further calls going on.

I'm of the opinion that part of the reason this has gone on for as long as it has is because you two haven't taken the EXTREME measures that SH recommends in establishing NC. And in this case, NC doesn't just mean with a specific OM...it means with ANY OM that she can chat with in an inappropriate fashion.

Just my thoughts. Basically, some way you HAVE to get the contact and bad behavior on both parts to END...and both of you need to go through the grief issues associated with that. THEN you can discuss next steps, such as divorce or reconciliation.

Well said, Owl. It amazes me how much you are able to get your finger on the pulse of our marriage, despite not knowing either one of us in real life. I really appreciate the things you are saying in the "on-line relationship" thread...I have been trying to say the same stuff but I think Win is dead set against doing anything I ask or recommend. She knows all she has to do is call me controlling or point out my past bad behavior and I will feel like a hypocrite and back off. But that's getting us nowhere.

I have mentioned to her in Email today that we need to sit down and read the Plan A section of S.A.A. together, and then write up a contract we will both agree to abide by and sign. I have also asked her (and she has asked me) to stay off the computer unless we are both on, and I think she will agree to that.

I think what Win wants me to work on is patience during withdrawal. I freely admit I have not been totally helpful to her in withdrawal, but I think she also now realizes that she hasn't really STARTED withdrawal. I know I need to work on her EN's and not LB while not expecting anything in return...but, in practice, I get lonely, I get scared, I have SF needs that I have to keep under wraps. So sometimes I blow it...sometimes I can blame her due to the ongoing secret life, but there are times when I get angry or make selfish demands and it's solely due to being impatient. I need to learn how to just chill out, treat her right, and wait for things to get better. It's hard when your emotions are tied up in this, and you don't know if you're going to lose your house and your family, but I need to do what's right, because I love Win and I would do anything if it would give me another chance at being in her heart.

Thanks for helping us, Owl. ;-)

I'd go one step further, Owl. Consider disconnecting internet service. Or allow Bassistist to put spyware on the computer that only he can access.

Win Bin, I'm actually glad you infiltrated the post. It's very easy for us to only hear one side of the story. While B said he had been selfish, that doesn't show how he helped create conditions that made your EA possible.

Tess, whether or not Win Bin asks for time to get over withdrawal, that's what Bassistist will need to give her unless he decides to get divorced. Withdrawal is real. Those who have been betrayed have a terrible ordeal to go through when they watch their spouse sad and depressed because said spouse can't have the OP. Not everyone can do it. And Plan A requires the BSs to handle it with grace, poise and kindness.

On the other hand, the WS is not going unpunished. They are suffering the loss of the OP, and in many situations, still sore from the LBs committed in the marriage prior to the affair.

I bet a lot of BS's feel like the slate should be wiped clean of their transgressions because "Nothing I ever did to you was as bad as what you did."

That's just not how it works. The WS still carries a lot of hurts too. And while we can judge some actions to be more wrong than others, it's very hard for us to judge how much a person was harmed by those actions.

FUN STUFF TO DO AT NIGHT...
Play games, things like Scrabble, cards or Apples to Apples.
Start a home project, like painting a room, finishing the basement, or putting in a container garden.
Exercise together, especially walking because you can be quiet or talk.
Double team your children and force them to tell you what they did in school. See who can make the children the most sullen by repeatedly asking them "So, what did you do today?"
Cook an elaborate dinner together.
Have phone sex with each other.

See its not so hard.

Post deleted by win bin

^oooooookay.

What'd I do? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by win bin

Who will you be chatting with? Did you already have this last chat, or are you going to have one more?

I'm so confused...

Post deleted by win bin

Just keep firing away at me on here if it makes you feel better. It's what the BS is here for.

Sheesh, you two! STOP. WinBin is trying to say she is not enthusiastic about your roller coaster trip, B.

Win Bin, you need to be more direct. If you want to point out that roller coaster vacations without you take time and energy away from the family, just as flirting with strangers online does, then say it.

I still don't see it that way Green. I don't think that I should have to give my WH time to "withdrawl" over the OW and I don't think Bass should either.



That's what a lot of people had conveyed to me in another thread - the concept of letting someone treat you with disrespect.

You can disconnect the net all you want - but if she wants to go online she'll find a way I think; library, friends house, whatever. He shouldn't have to wait around while she decides when she'll be faithful.

Yes Win, he shouldn't have done those things you've mentioned but you each need to take responsibilities for your own actions. You can't blame his trip for your infidelities.

Trust me, my husband did MUCH MUCH worse. I never had ANY type of affair - NONE.

So IMHO the flirting etc. needs to stop immediately and the withdrawl crap is just that. I wonder what Dr. Phil would say about the sitch.
Hmmm ,......
(Sorry if my opinion offends some but that's how I feel.)

edited to add this in:
Quote : "Those who have been betrayed have a terrible ordeal to go through when they watch their spouse sad and depressed because said spouse can't have the OP"

OH BOO FREAKIN' HOO !

Sorry but I'm not going to feel sorry for my stinkin' husband if he's sad or depressed that he's not with the cow he left for.

Good Greif.

What next? Maybe a step-down plan where he gradually cuts down on the sex with her?

Ok, honey go ahead and only sleep with her 3 times this week and we'll try for 2 times next week. You know we have to take your withdrawl from her with grace and kindness.


What a load of steaming bullcrap.

I'm sorry but that just really stuck in my craw.

The bible views infidelity serious enough to list it as a reason divorce was allowed.

I don't see a 10 day coaster trip, too much gaming, or needing help with the house in there.....

Tess,

Have you read the MB principals about withdrawal? It exists whether you deal with it or not.

I don't think BS's should really respond to WS because they take all the anger from their WS and put it on everyone else w/out LISTENING to their situation.

HE can ignore my withdrawl all he wants but that's not going to help me recover or help our relationship. I KNOW that flirting is wrong. This is why I posted I did it so that I can get HELP to STOP it. You can deny withdrawl all you want, but it doesn't stop it from existing. It is what it is.

Also he was AWARE that I was talking/flirting and participated in the phone sex after when I would jump on him. It's not like I hid the whole relationship from him. What he didn't know is that I had fallen in love with one of the OM's I was talking to. I should have stopped the relationship at that point, but I didnt. I'm not saying that I"m not responsible for my A. Yes I am the One who had the A but in our situation, its a little different. H was involved too. And I never had SF with anyone only online and phone, not that it makes it ok.

So are you saying that it's ok for a spouse to ignore, neglect, be selfish, and controlling, abusing substances, and a person should just stay married for that? NO I shouldn't have had an A, I should have just left him.

I take responsibility for my continued chatting/flirting and I have committed to stopping to work on things.

-win

Yeah, to be honest I wasn't sure what she meant, but I took it as an attack. We were also emailing at the time and she stopped emailing me at the same time. So I got a little mad. But we worked it out when we got home and I understand what she meant.

I wish she wouldn't keep bringing up the trip, but I know she's going to be bitter about it...I abused her by taking too many trips and making them too long. The one this year, I booked the airfare a few weeks before D-Day. When everything came out, I offered to cancel the trip and told my friends I would likely be bowing out. She told me that she didn't want to see me lose the $200 I had paid (non-refundable tickets) and that I should go. I have promised to her that this will be the last trip I will take of this type. It was selfish of me to take such long trips without her. I don't think it's fair of her to beat me up over it when she said it was OK, but it's to be expected. She does point out that it's hypocritical of me to ask her to stop chatting, but I'm not stopping what I'm doing (until after this trip), and she does have a point there.

Trust me a divorce will be a heck of alot more expensive than $200.

Miker

Bassistist, I'm with Miker. I'd bow out of the trip for several reasons. 1. POJA -- your wife obviously isn't enthusiastic about it. 2. Your sanity -- if you're home, you won't worry so much she's chatting online. 3. These rollercoaster trips are obviously a big issue for your wife that go back a long way. 4. It's sort of an inbalance if you go have a blast while she's sitting home with the kids and no escape.

Win Bin, What's your plan for staying away from OM if your H leaves? You need a fail-proof plan. I do put disconnecting the internet up high on the list. I disagree with Tess on this. I think flirting online is less likely if you have to use a public computer. And when you have an 8 and 10 year old, getting to the library is tough. At the office, you run the rest of getting caught and fired.

Tess, I wanted to respond to you directly because your point of view is so natural.

You said you didn't think BSs should have to give WSs time to get over the OP. I agree. The betrayed spouse has every right to end the marriage.

If BSs want to be happily married to a Formerly Wayward Spouse, BSs do need to understand that there's withdrawal. Living through withdrawal is not the same as putting up with disrespect. If someone refuses to stop contact, then you probably have to go to Plan B or Plan D.

Also, Tess, I think you misread the section you quoted. Please go look at it again. I wrote that the Betrayed Spouse has a terrible burden to bear, not the WS. Maybe you quoted the wrong paragraph and were referring to my paragraph on how the WS does suffer too.

However, none of the thoughts I wrote applies to your situation, Tess. Your STBX is not repentant. He doesn't want to recover his marriage with you. At least not right now. He's not in withdrawal. He's not really suffering with way Formerly Wandering Spouses suffer once they go NC.

In my book, you should give your H. lots of understanding... Starting with "I understand you've made your choice. You're not my problem any more. I understand you're a selfish B. and the answer to any requests for help is 'NO!'" That's the kind of understanding you need to have for your STBX. LOL.

Bass-

Just posted a response on the other forum to what I'd read both here and there...

I agree with Greengables...personally, ya'll need to either remove the internet or install software to prevent Win from accessing the chats, rooms, etc...

I also let Win know in the other thread that I'm really more of the opinion that this isn't about withdrawl at this point. I don't think that REAL withdrawl has set in yet. At this point, she's still in the fog however, and still totally unwilling to accept her role in things. But that is NOT an excuse for this...IMO, fog doesn't excuse anything.

Take a look at my post, hopefully I wasn't too harsh, but I honestly feel like a dose of reality is needed here.

Well, I'm a little sore from the MB 2 X 4 this morning...but it's a good sore. ;-)

Greengables and Miker, I can't deny that you have a major point to make. So much so that I am considering cancelling my trip. It's going to suck to do this to 3 good friends 9 days before the trip, but I'm starting to feel terrible about leaving Win home alone when she is trying to do something very hard for her. I have no idea if me not going will make any difference to her, but I hope she would recognize the act as a rejection of the selfish behavior I have engaged in the last few years. It's going to cost me a lot of money, and I may lose one of the three friends over it...the other two will be understanding, but one friend in particular is going to be mad at me for a long time. I really wish that Win had taken me up on my offer to cancel the trip two months ago, it would have been a lot easier to let my friends down at that point, before everything was planned out. But I think that this is a decision I need to reach for myself. For whatever reasons (conflict-avoidance, passive aggression, or she just wanted 10 days alone to do whatever) she could not tell me that she didn't want me to go, even when I was offering.

I'm really torn about this...I want to make the gesture to show her that I have changed, but I'm going to be really pissed off if we break up anyways and I missed a fun trip. But there will be time for plenty more trips if we split up, I guess. Our MC said something profound last night..."we spend so much time wondering how our lives get so screwed up, but we have to realize we are where we are due to our own actions". I've made this little ethical trap for myself, and I have to say I've done a great job at making a puzzle with no easy solution. I guess I'm leaning towards backing out of the trip, but I'm scared to break the news to my friends. Not to mention I'm scared to add up how much it's going to cost me (I intend to pay for my share of all the hotel rooms even though I'm not going-it's not fair to stick my friends with an unanticipated $30-40 charge per night), and I REALLY needed the time off. Above all else, I'm scared to take this step and then have it make no difference anyways.

But it would be a definite violation of POJA if I go, and at a time when Win is trying to do something she has failed at so far, and which is so important for our marriage continuing.

Just tell Win that as much as your are dying to go on that trip with your friends, that you are not going to go as a sign that your days of engaging in the LB called independent behavior are passed. Let her know that while you would appreciate it greatly if she reciprocated from engaging in her own independent behavior of having cyber and phone sex with OM that it is her decision to do it or not and that you will no longer pressure her in any way, shape or form.

The time has come and gone where BOTH of you know what the marriage needs if it is to be saved/rebuilt and that if BOTH of you continue with the same destructive habits then BOTH of you are going to have to deal with the consequences from your selfish actions.

You may be interested in reading JavaPrincess's thread For the Newbies from a Recovered and Happy FBS. I beleive that you may benefit from her comments.

TMCM

B - Just popping in here. I have been talking to Win over on Card's thread.

I just want to ask what's more important to you...saving your M at all costs or the thought of losing your friends over a trip???? If they are truly your friends, they will still be your friends. You said you are scared to make this step, but from the outsiders here trying to look in, it seems to be such a necessary step in the right direction for your M to show Win you are willing to do your part. Both of you seem to state what I - I - I - I want, but what about the "us" in a marriage??? Both of you need to work on the "us" and work toward taking steps to get there.

2B - I just made the decision to cancel it. It's hard, because I AM selfish, but you are right.

Now I have to tell my friends <cringe>. But my marriage and my family mean more to me than my friends, and it's about time I showed it.

bassistist - Glad to hear you made your decision. I know it may be hard for you to tell your friends, but think of how this will feel for Win to know you are going to do your part and mean it.

Well, I hope that she understands I am doing it for both of us...for her to show her how much I want to change what was an unsatisfactory marriage for her, and for me to prove to myself that I am capable of change. This feels like the right thing to do.

Well,
I don't want him to cancel his trip now on his friends. I appreciate the gesture, but I also think we need some space apart, there's been so much drama latetly I feel like I'm gonna crack.

Win Bin,

So in short you won't accept his effort to show you, that he cares about you and what you think. Is that what you are saying? Please think carefully about this.

God Bless,

JL

Yes I accept it, but he's doing a lot of back peddling. He wasn't willing to change anything until he thought I was running away with someone else. I guess that's what hurts me. That my hurt and dissatisfaction wasn't enough to make him stop. Only losing me to another man was. All the times I told him we should spend more time together, all the birthdays and holidays he only thought of himself for. It hurts. It really hurts.

I don't know how long it will take me to forgive or move on. I know you all think I'm awful for what I did. I'm just stating the facts and my feelings. Not saying I'm not guilty. Not as guilty as most.

He's not going because he doesn't trust me and he wants to make sure I don't chat. I'm not going to chat EVER AGAIN!

^The above is mostly correct, although I would like to add that the reasons I'm not going are four-fold:

1. As stated above, I fear Win trying to give up her chatting addiction while alone in the house for ten days.

2. Win's excellent point in this thread that I have asked her to give up her fun, but I have not made the same sacrifice.

3. I re-read the chapter in LB about independent behavior, and this coaster trip is a textbook example of this LB, which has been a major problem for me in our marriage.

and

4. Win always talks about how selfish I am, and I wanted to show to her that I could give up something that means a lot to me, simply because my family means more.

She has responded by getting mad at me in email, then finally saying "do whatever you want" and giving up. I'm still going to cancel because it's the right thing to do, but why does everything have to be so hard? Me simply wishing that she might feel better somehow translates in her mind into me rushing her through withdrawal. Me saying that I might be horny, just in a general sense, is interpreted by her as a demand for sex. Me asking about her feelings is me smothering her. She interprets everything I say as either a demand or me being selfish. I guess I have it coming, because I did it to her. Maybe someday we will be "even" and we can try and make each other happy again.

Well, now it looks like I am going on the trip. Win has asked me to go, because she doesn't want me to let my friends down (she knows one of them well) and because she wants some space. She promises me she will behave. She says she's not meeting anyone and won't phone with anyone. She said she is going to chat, but she's going to keep it in the friendly rooms, not the sexual ones.

OK, some venting coming here...Win, I know you are going to read this. Sorry if any of this offends you; keep in mind this is my vent thread and I can say what I want here, including the things I don't say directly to you. This is one of those things.

OK, I can see most of you shaking your heads and saying "Fool!". Her being OK with me going basically says to the instincts that she wants to be free to do whatever she wants, and I am a fool to trust her after she betrayed me less than a week ago by planning phone sex and sort of planning a PA.

But you know what, I know this, and I can accept it. Both of us know that she could have an affair anytime she wants, she doesn't need me to be out of town for that. And it's clear to me that OM #1 is out of the picture, he just isn't interested in her anymore. I believe her when she says she doesn't have that connection with anyone else. And I believe her when she says she needs the space; to be honest, I do too.

I think she knows that she can fool me, but only for so long. I seem to find out what's going on eventually. And she knows the next instance of betrayal will lead us to Plan B, and her moving into her mom's house. I'm willing to give her time to get better, but I will not stand for repeated betrayals.

I know we're handling this the wrong way under MB principles, but we both need some space right now. If it turns out wrong then so be it...it's not like it's going good right now. If it's going to get better then we can survive 10 days apart.

Bassistist, the situation could be the way you write it, or it could be Win is afraid of the change. When you decided to give up your trip because you wanted to work on your family, you were disturbing the status quo. When a relationship's dynamics change because one of hte people has changed, it is very scary. The other person or people try all kind of manuveurs to re-establish the status quo.

Bassist,

Let me ask you a question. Knowing what you know about marriages and relationships, would this trip be a good idea IF Win had no affairs, no one to chat with, but was married to you? Whether you go or not needs to be decided in the context of the marriage you hope to have NOT the one you have now. If you are to ever learn new ways of living, if you are ever to learn to share your life with your W, you need to start making decisions based on what you learn and hope to learn. What she promises or not promises is not the issue.

The issue is YOU, your feelings about marriage, you understanding of the responsibility of being an H, a friend to your W. You need to decide to go or not go on those points NOT on what Win might or might not do. You need to start to change things in YOUR perspective and behavior because YOU feel they are the right things to change or do.

Win may or may not be mad at you, but YOUR decision about your role in any marriage and particularly this one, need to be based on your value system...not Win's. She needs to deal and face her own decisions: in the past, now, and in the future. You have to do the same thing.

Neither of you seem to have figured out that you cannot control the other. The other is NOT responsible for YOUR decisions. You are married to Win because you want to be, because she fills your life with joy, and happiness. She needs to do the same thing. Right now it is not true.

So evaluate this trip carefully, but make the decision on what YOU feel is right.

God Bless,

JL

Sadly this is one more example of the old saying 'You don't know what you got 'til it's gone' in action.
Yes, it is painful that human beings don't appreciate their loved ones until they lose them or about to lose them. Unfortunately it's one of the crappiest things of being human.
You have every right to feel bitterness and resentment towards him but be careful that you don't nurse these feelings for you may end up harming yourself more.



Forgiveness, just like recovery, is not an instantaneous process. You make the committment to forgive because doing so benefits YOU more than it does him.
Don't be in a rush and take it one day at a time. Learn to appreciate the blessings that you have even if they are small for eventually you will learn to appreciate the big ones.

TMCM

Hey Win - I understand about being hurt and I know it seems as if it took what's happened recently for Bass to make an effort to change. But Win, he is "willing" to change and he was showing you that. It's tough when it takes what you've been through for someone to realize that change needs to start, but it IS a start even if it took this to open both you and your H's eyes to what needs to happen. It seems that most of us writing on this forum have realized that change NEEDS to take place within in ourselves better our M's. The good thing is that Bass DID recognize this! And I believe you are too.

Bass - Your comments remind me of something my H would say. If I were to start an A, it could happen anytime and not just when he might be away. That is true. However, if I were in Win's shoes, I would be very weak with my H gone for a week or so. I wouldn't be strong enough in myself to not go back to those same bad habits. IF you still decide to go (and it seems that is where you are at), there really needs to be some accountability with what Win is doing while you are away. Win, I've been where you are and I know within myself I would not be strong enough at the point where you are at right now especially with NC just beginning.

Bass, even if you believe she won't be chatting with men, don't you want to help her with the NC and help her with a plan so she can succeed with NC?

Win,

You know it is bad enough when a married man engages in online and phone sex but it is sad when a married woman does it because it shows how much disrespect she has for herself. Don't kid yourself about these OM you've had online contact with for you are NOTHING to them but a horny MILF to be used and tossed away once the novelty wears off. Sorry for the bluntness but it is the truth and you know it. If you break your promise for NC and if bassistist chooses to file for divorce, then you will have no one to blame but yourself.

TMCM

Of course I do. But it has to come from her. She perceives any requests by me to limit her chat as either selfish behavior or controlling, things I have been guilty of in the past. So, at this point, I have told her what I will and won't stand for, and it's up to her. I can't keep her locked in a closet 24/7; there's lost of horny men out there to be taken advantage of if she chooses to do so. She knows now that I will divorce her if I find out she's doing that. She has always been an honest and trustworthy person before this, and I think she wants to get back to that place. I certainly need her to get back there for me to be happy and want to stay with her. So I'm refocusing my energy to working on me and giving her space to process this. And, to be honest, we need the break from each other.

We both know we need to work on the relationship and stop our independent behavior if we want to last, but we're doing baby steps right now.

bassistist,

If I had a dollar for every time a WS says that his/her BS is controlling I'd be a very rich man. The truth is that it is the opposite for it is the WS who wants to control the BS with lies, deception, and forcing a one-sided open marriage on the BS. Controlling indeed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

As far as your trip is concerned, I'd like to suggest that before you go you give your W as much information on your whereabouts during the trip. Not only does it make sense in case there is an emergency but also as a sign that you want to be accountable to her for your whereabouts and time. Hopefully she will reciprocate [without your prompting] but even if she doesn't, your doing so will benefit YOU no matter what happens to your marriage.

TMCM

I provide her with a detailed itinerary including where I will be and what I will be doing each day. I usually pack too much into my trips to misbehave!

And she has a point when it comes to controlling, I have engaged in some of that behavior. So I'm sensitive to the criticism on that, because I'm trying to limit it and let her do what she wants. However, I have set some boundaries and told her what will happen if she crosses them, and she still interprets that as controlling. I tell her she's just spinning things to make me the bad guy when she does that. I know it makes her mad but I have to let her know that she can't just do anything she wants. I have to have standards too.

BAss,

Don't believe her when she says that it is ok for you to go on the trip. She wants you to decide for yourself that it is not the right thing to do. Trust me, if you go, that will have negative repercussions for your M.

Do the right thing and not go. You can't just rely on words here. Logic and the situation dictate that you rise above your selfish interests here and show her that you really care about what she wants. What she really wants is for you to be with her and not do something that she has said many, many times before undermines the M, i.e., taking those kinds of trips.

Do not rationalize that it's ok to go, notwithstanding what she says, if you really want to improve the M. Show her that you really care by your actions.

Too Much,

I've been keeping up on this thread for a couple days now and I don't want to hijack, but what you said about controling is absolutly true. I'm a BS and he always says I'm too controlling. It was great to hear you say that, I feel like I'm going crazy - you eased my mind (a little,if only for awhile). Thanks,

I hope that you realize that you have painted yourself into a wall with that ultimatum and that if you don't follow through with it that you are going to lose all credibility in her eyes and she MAY take it as a sign that she can continue her online chats with OM without any consequences. Ultimatums should never be issued unless a person is ready, willing and able to carrying them out.


Of course you are controlling but it is not her that you should be controlling but your life and your future. If she can't make that distinction then the controlling one is she.

TMCM

Oh, I'm ready to carry them out, and she knows it. I already asked her for a divorce last Saturday, and it's not like it gets any worse than that for a marriage. She knows that I am good for my word if I give it, and that I will have the motivation to follow through with it if need be. I don't WANT to get divorced, because I still love her...but if this behavior continues I won't stand for it. I'm willing to walk away. I guess you could see that as controlling behavior from one side (determining how and when the relationship ends) but I look at it as giving up control (the on-going survival of the marriage is in her hands, and if she chooses to walk away or bring yet another man in to her life secretly, then I will walk away without complaint or drama).

I just look at it as a strict interpretation of Plan A. I will support her, I will give her space, and I will try to meet her ENs, but I also have to lay down some lines that I will not allow to be crossed. Should she do so, I will make a decision at that time whether I will go to Plan B or Plan D. Probably depends on how serious the transgression is. She still calls me controlling and selfish, but all I have asked of her is to give up sexual behavior of any type with other men. That seems fair, since I have involuntarily given up sex for now, and I have respected her wishes for me not to ask for it for now. I hope she will come around to seeing that I am trying to be fair to her, but it serves the hostility she feels towards me to claim this is evidence of more control.

Bass,
I don't understand
"this next coaster trip will be my last,"
You and your wife are going through such a difficult time right now, but you are going on a coaster trip?
Don't you think not going anywhere would be a good idea for a while?
Bin,
I understand your frustration, but chats on line? That fantasy stuff (and it's fantasy because is not really real...) is just a vapor.
What scares me sometimes is how I could become a vapor if I don't make an effort to be real. What is it that makes me me? Is it how others treat me, or is it how I treat others?
How others treat me may sadden me, frighten me, anger me, but those are just my feelings, not my essence. Who/what I worship and how I love others (in helping and wanting them to be real) shapes and solidifies my "I," who I am becoming. We are always becoming something, unless we are dead.
So, like most people, through all time and places, and like most of us on these forums, you guys have had some problems. It seems to me that a life-long relationship involves on the job training. It looks to someone like me, like the two of you are the best thing the two of you have, and the love that is there -- and it is there -- is way, way worth your suffering, patience, and effort to fan the embers and add more fuel.
I know that feeling that nothing is going to change, she won't change, he won't change, but if you both have looked at Dr. Harley's basics, I think you know there is really a lot of hope for some wonderful changes. It will take some time and some effort. I hope you don't give up!

Bass-

Personally, I wouldn't go either, but I'm also not in your exact situation either.

When my wife were FIRST going to MC, while she was still deep in the withdrawl, our first MC insisted that we 'work on ourselves first, then work on the M'. I didn't like that much, since it wasn't specifically me or her that was broke, but our R that was, but I went along with it. I scheduled a trip to go to a ren fair in the next state...would have been gone the entire weekend. The whole time, I DREADED the idea of going...because I wondered if she'd resume contact with the OM, if she'd just finally give up and LEAVE to go be with him while I was gone, you name it.

Turns out, the day before I was scheduled to go, SHE came to ME about reconciling. I didn't go...and the rest is history.

I'm not saying that this will happen in your case. But...I just can't see leaving at this point, for all of the same reasons why I couldn't see myself doing it either in my situation.

Make your M the priority in your life now. I'm not saying you should hover over her that whole time you would have been gone, but let her know that you are THERE FOR HER IF SHE NEEDS YOU. You can't be while you're away on the trip.

Your call friend. You know your situation better than we do.

He's decided to go on his trip. We need the space.
-win

Win-

So what measures did the two of you agree on to ensure that you wouldn't be tempted to slip on NC and to engage in inappropriate contact with any other men while he's away?

Bassists & Win,
I’ve been lurking around this board, trying to gain a little insight, reading a few threads and then stumbled on to yours. And I have to say that it’s all very interesting. Very Southern Cal-ish to say the least. LOL

To bad I live back east because I think that you and your charming WW would be fun to know but (and I’m sorry to have to say it bro) NOT TO HAVE AS PARENTS! That’s for damn sure. If the current discourse between you two is any sample of how you work out your differences then you really need to look into sending your kids to boarding school.

Guys, I have to tell you both that I’ve never read a litany of more immature, spiteful and selfish trash in all my life. What saves you two is that you’re both so obviously charming, attractive and so very much in love! I just hope the both of you remember the last part of my observation…the part about you two being so much in love,… and take it to heart before you do so much damage that it can’t be repaired.

It’s obvious to me that you both need to grow up…and not just a little bit! So how about a “time out” during which you both just stop the foolishness? The spiteful paybacks and in your face kind “so how do you like it” kind of actions will kill all the good stuff you two have together faster then anything else ever will.

You know being right isn’t always the answer. Sometimes being able to tell some one you love that you’re hurting and right or wrong, what they’re doing is what’s causing the hurt. And has it occurred to either of you that hurting is some place you don’t want the person you love to be?

Mr. B, do yourself a favor…grow up a little bit and just cancel your trip. And then don’t make any more plans for separate vacations. Married people do vacations together. Get it? They don’t do separate…married people do “together.”

Don’t ask her or any one else if this is the right thing to do by the way. Just do it! You’re not a kid anymore and you know what needs to be done. It’s time to put childish things aside and to begin putting your priorities in proper perspective. And by the way, this is not to be used as a bargaining chip. You do it because it’s the right thing to do and because you love your wife and because your going away will make her unhappy and angry. Get it?

And Ms. Win Bin, in case it has escaped your notice, nice girls don’t have phone sex with strangers! Nice girls that are in love with their husbands and are the mother of children and want those children to grow up with both a mother and a father don’t flirt and have phones sex and have sex chat and make secret dates to meet OM! Why not? Because it’s simply the wrong thing to do…no matter what real or imagined motives you may come up with. They don’t do it because they have feelings of self worth that dictate that being some pervs stroke partner is not an activity calculated to make a marriage stronger or better. They don’t do it because it’s a self degrading activity. And they particularly don’t do it because it will hurt the person they love so deeply that the pain may never go away.

So Ms. Win Bin, my advice is that you *CAN* the anger and all the rest of the [censored] about what “he” is doing and did and begin to show yourself, your marriage and your children…get it…your children…the respect they and you are entitled to. And if you’re husband is misbehaving then settle your beef in the arena in which it belongs…MCing.

As for falling in love with some [censored] heel on line, will you please grow up! What are you an infant? Some teenage childish bimbo that falls in love with a guy’s line of [censored] or his voice? Do you even realize how lame this sounds?

Look, your husband was ready to walk out! Get it? He was and is talking divorce because he doesn’t want to have a wife who is acting out some pervs wet dreams! So stop making this into some emotional trauma and just quit doing it! And while you’re at it, stop with the withdrawal crap. It’s insulting to all of us for you to be using MB principals and ideas as an excuse for your willful and childish behavior.

You two don’t need marriage counseling. All you need to do is grow up and start remembering that loving each other is more important then anything else you will ever do. And that all the nasty sex and excitement in the world is not worth one tear that you cause the one you love to shed.

Coach

PS. Now be good children and behave yourselves.

I already asked her for a divorce last Saturday,
You "asked" her for one?
Why?
You want her to do the dirty work?

If you want one, file. You don't need her permission.

I will make a decision at that time whether I will go to Plan B or Plan D.
It's not usually one or the other.
It's usually Plan B, then divorce (for many good reasons).

Coach,
Thanks for the rant. First of all we are not bad parents. Granted things got carried away on this thread and much should be deleted.

I haven't felt in love w/my H in a long time, which is no excuse for letting myself fall in love with an OM (who was not a perv or scum, but a nice guy who got carried away and backed off immediately after H talked to him). I don't know if it can come back but I have to at least try which is what we are working on.

He did go on his trip.

My H encouraged me to flirt with guys online. Not that it makes it right,it is wrong. I'm just saying we both got caught up in the perversion. Which has stopped, yes.

And I had wanted to leave before he asked for a divorce. He had begged me to stay. Hopefully things will quiet down when he gets back.

Thanks for your input. I enjoy the bashing. At least you gave it to both of us!

So, WB, how's it going? How are you holding up?

It's been hard, but I think the space has been good for me. I know that I have to give up the OM and have been struggling through withdrawal, though its not as bad as it was in the past. It has been nice to have some space and time alone to decompress from all the drama. I had a good IC session exploring and figuring out the needs that OM was meeting and what it is I need. Emotional intimacy is what I need and I dont know if Bass will be able to give it to me, but he needs to try. He's never had it with anyone in his life so it will be a challenge for him to open up on a real level. Intimacy is not physical, and thats the only way he has understood it.

thanks
win

Bass-

You know that I've been talking occasionally with Win on the other thread in GQII. I was curious how things were going for you since you came back from your trip?

Well, Owl, it's honestly gone pretty frickin' bad over here. I went through Win's chat archives while I was away on my trip and she was totally out of control almost the whole time. She is about to go PA with OM#whatever (I've lost count), a 21-year old married guy that's local. She still continues begging the original OM to take her back into his heart. And there's another 19-year old guy who lives less than a mile away that she's also pursuing. She got drunk a number of nights and was basically whoring herself out on the internet. The most hurtful though were the emails to two different people stating she was moving out in two weeks, when school ends, something she has completely denied after I first found out about it (see the first post in this thread).

I decided today that I'm sick of living in these conditions...and she's leaving anyways, so why not just have it out now? I confronted her tonight about the chat archives and she again tried to lie and say that wasn't what she meant. I've decided I'm not falling for it anymore. I asked her to move out this weekend. She can go do her thing all she wants, but it won't be under a shared roof with me. So it's pretty much official, I am getting divorced. Sucks for our kids, but this can't continue. She's never going to love me again, and I'm never going to trust her again.

Bassist, I'm very sorry.

Win-Bin, you may want to investigate internet addiction support groups if you find you cannot stop.

Bass-

As I said in the other forum, I'm very sorry to hear this. I do hope that things work out for all of you in the best possible way.

Win-
I think the advice about trying looking for an internet addiction group might not hurt.

Bass ... she doesn't love or trust herself. That is obvious. Healthy happy adult women don't behave this way.

I posted to both of you on GQII before I read this update ... but ... I'm not sorry I made the effort.

I wish you well.

Pep

Yes I love myself. Yes I am UNHAPPY!

Are B's chat allegations while he was gone true?

If so, admitting you have a problem is a good place to start.

There is NO good to come from seeking confort outside a marriage...NONE!

That barrier between you will remain until YOU STOP!!! I am sure B has issues and he needs to work on them.

Admit yours and begin working!

Win Bin, if you're checking in.... Do you want a divorce?

What about you Bassist?

I absolutely don't want a divorce. I want Win to be happy and for us to find a new way to co-exist in peace. But if she can't be happy with me then it's OK it she wants a divorce.

I feel we haven't put the work in though, as she is still chatting and I obviously need much more counseling to work on intimacy issues and selfishness.