Bassistist, the situation could be the way you write it, or it could be Win is afraid of the change. When you decided to give up your trip because you wanted to work on your family, you were disturbing the status quo. When a relationship's dynamics change because one of hte people has changed, it is very scary. The other person or people try all kind of manuveurs to re-establish the status quo.

Bassist,

Let me ask you a question. Knowing what you know about marriages and relationships, would this trip be a good idea IF Win had no affairs, no one to chat with, but was married to you? Whether you go or not needs to be decided in the context of the marriage you hope to have NOT the one you have now. If you are to ever learn new ways of living, if you are ever to learn to share your life with your W, you need to start making decisions based on what you learn and hope to learn. What she promises or not promises is not the issue.

The issue is YOU, your feelings about marriage, you understanding of the responsibility of being an H, a friend to your W. You need to decide to go or not go on those points NOT on what Win might or might not do. You need to start to change things in YOUR perspective and behavior because YOU feel they are the right things to change or do.

Win may or may not be mad at you, but YOUR decision about your role in any marriage and particularly this one, need to be based on your value system...not Win's. She needs to deal and face her own decisions: in the past, now, and in the future. You have to do the same thing.

Neither of you seem to have figured out that you cannot control the other. The other is NOT responsible for YOUR decisions. You are married to Win because you want to be, because she fills your life with joy, and happiness. She needs to do the same thing. Right now it is not true.

So evaluate this trip carefully, but make the decision on what YOU feel is right.

God Bless,

JL

Sadly this is one more example of the old saying 'You don't know what you got 'til it's gone' in action.
Yes, it is painful that human beings don't appreciate their loved ones until they lose them or about to lose them. Unfortunately it's one of the crappiest things of being human.
You have every right to feel bitterness and resentment towards him but be careful that you don't nurse these feelings for you may end up harming yourself more.



Forgiveness, just like recovery, is not an instantaneous process. You make the committment to forgive because doing so benefits YOU more than it does him.
Don't be in a rush and take it one day at a time. Learn to appreciate the blessings that you have even if they are small for eventually you will learn to appreciate the big ones.

TMCM

Hey Win - I understand about being hurt and I know it seems as if it took what's happened recently for Bass to make an effort to change. But Win, he is "willing" to change and he was showing you that. It's tough when it takes what you've been through for someone to realize that change needs to start, but it IS a start even if it took this to open both you and your H's eyes to what needs to happen. It seems that most of us writing on this forum have realized that change NEEDS to take place within in ourselves better our M's. The good thing is that Bass DID recognize this! And I believe you are too.

Bass - Your comments remind me of something my H would say. If I were to start an A, it could happen anytime and not just when he might be away. That is true. However, if I were in Win's shoes, I would be very weak with my H gone for a week or so. I wouldn't be strong enough in myself to not go back to those same bad habits. IF you still decide to go (and it seems that is where you are at), there really needs to be some accountability with what Win is doing while you are away. Win, I've been where you are and I know within myself I would not be strong enough at the point where you are at right now especially with NC just beginning.

Bass, even if you believe she won't be chatting with men, don't you want to help her with the NC and help her with a plan so she can succeed with NC?

Win,

You know it is bad enough when a married man engages in online and phone sex but it is sad when a married woman does it because it shows how much disrespect she has for herself. Don't kid yourself about these OM you've had online contact with for you are NOTHING to them but a horny MILF to be used and tossed away once the novelty wears off. Sorry for the bluntness but it is the truth and you know it. If you break your promise for NC and if bassistist chooses to file for divorce, then you will have no one to blame but yourself.

TMCM

Of course I do. But it has to come from her. She perceives any requests by me to limit her chat as either selfish behavior or controlling, things I have been guilty of in the past. So, at this point, I have told her what I will and won't stand for, and it's up to her. I can't keep her locked in a closet 24/7; there's lost of horny men out there to be taken advantage of if she chooses to do so. She knows now that I will divorce her if I find out she's doing that. She has always been an honest and trustworthy person before this, and I think she wants to get back to that place. I certainly need her to get back there for me to be happy and want to stay with her. So I'm refocusing my energy to working on me and giving her space to process this. And, to be honest, we need the break from each other.

We both know we need to work on the relationship and stop our independent behavior if we want to last, but we're doing baby steps right now.

bassistist,

If I had a dollar for every time a WS says that his/her BS is controlling I'd be a very rich man. The truth is that it is the opposite for it is the WS who wants to control the BS with lies, deception, and forcing a one-sided open marriage on the BS. Controlling indeed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

As far as your trip is concerned, I'd like to suggest that before you go you give your W as much information on your whereabouts during the trip. Not only does it make sense in case there is an emergency but also as a sign that you want to be accountable to her for your whereabouts and time. Hopefully she will reciprocate [without your prompting] but even if she doesn't, your doing so will benefit YOU no matter what happens to your marriage.

TMCM

I provide her with a detailed itinerary including where I will be and what I will be doing each day. I usually pack too much into my trips to misbehave!

And she has a point when it comes to controlling, I have engaged in some of that behavior. So I'm sensitive to the criticism on that, because I'm trying to limit it and let her do what she wants. However, I have set some boundaries and told her what will happen if she crosses them, and she still interprets that as controlling. I tell her she's just spinning things to make me the bad guy when she does that. I know it makes her mad but I have to let her know that she can't just do anything she wants. I have to have standards too.

BAss,

Don't believe her when she says that it is ok for you to go on the trip. She wants you to decide for yourself that it is not the right thing to do. Trust me, if you go, that will have negative repercussions for your M.

Do the right thing and not go. You can't just rely on words here. Logic and the situation dictate that you rise above your selfish interests here and show her that you really care about what she wants. What she really wants is for you to be with her and not do something that she has said many, many times before undermines the M, i.e., taking those kinds of trips.

Do not rationalize that it's ok to go, notwithstanding what she says, if you really want to improve the M. Show her that you really care by your actions.

Too Much,

I've been keeping up on this thread for a couple days now and I don't want to hijack, but what you said about controling is absolutly true. I'm a BS and he always says I'm too controlling. It was great to hear you say that, I feel like I'm going crazy - you eased my mind (a little,if only for awhile). Thanks,

I hope that you realize that you have painted yourself into a wall with that ultimatum and that if you don't follow through with it that you are going to lose all credibility in her eyes and she MAY take it as a sign that she can continue her online chats with OM without any consequences. Ultimatums should never be issued unless a person is ready, willing and able to carrying them out.


Of course you are controlling but it is not her that you should be controlling but your life and your future. If she can't make that distinction then the controlling one is she.

TMCM

Oh, I'm ready to carry them out, and she knows it. I already asked her for a divorce last Saturday, and it's not like it gets any worse than that for a marriage. She knows that I am good for my word if I give it, and that I will have the motivation to follow through with it if need be. I don't WANT to get divorced, because I still love her...but if this behavior continues I won't stand for it. I'm willing to walk away. I guess you could see that as controlling behavior from one side (determining how and when the relationship ends) but I look at it as giving up control (the on-going survival of the marriage is in her hands, and if she chooses to walk away or bring yet another man in to her life secretly, then I will walk away without complaint or drama).

I just look at it as a strict interpretation of Plan A. I will support her, I will give her space, and I will try to meet her ENs, but I also have to lay down some lines that I will not allow to be crossed. Should she do so, I will make a decision at that time whether I will go to Plan B or Plan D. Probably depends on how serious the transgression is. She still calls me controlling and selfish, but all I have asked of her is to give up sexual behavior of any type with other men. That seems fair, since I have involuntarily given up sex for now, and I have respected her wishes for me not to ask for it for now. I hope she will come around to seeing that I am trying to be fair to her, but it serves the hostility she feels towards me to claim this is evidence of more control.

Bass,
I don't understand
"this next coaster trip will be my last,"
You and your wife are going through such a difficult time right now, but you are going on a coaster trip?
Don't you think not going anywhere would be a good idea for a while?
Bin,
I understand your frustration, but chats on line? That fantasy stuff (and it's fantasy because is not really real...) is just a vapor.
What scares me sometimes is how I could become a vapor if I don't make an effort to be real. What is it that makes me me? Is it how others treat me, or is it how I treat others?
How others treat me may sadden me, frighten me, anger me, but those are just my feelings, not my essence. Who/what I worship and how I love others (in helping and wanting them to be real) shapes and solidifies my "I," who I am becoming. We are always becoming something, unless we are dead.
So, like most people, through all time and places, and like most of us on these forums, you guys have had some problems. It seems to me that a life-long relationship involves on the job training. It looks to someone like me, like the two of you are the best thing the two of you have, and the love that is there -- and it is there -- is way, way worth your suffering, patience, and effort to fan the embers and add more fuel.
I know that feeling that nothing is going to change, she won't change, he won't change, but if you both have looked at Dr. Harley's basics, I think you know there is really a lot of hope for some wonderful changes. It will take some time and some effort. I hope you don't give up!

Bass-

Personally, I wouldn't go either, but I'm also not in your exact situation either.

When my wife were FIRST going to MC, while she was still deep in the withdrawl, our first MC insisted that we 'work on ourselves first, then work on the M'. I didn't like that much, since it wasn't specifically me or her that was broke, but our R that was, but I went along with it. I scheduled a trip to go to a ren fair in the next state...would have been gone the entire weekend. The whole time, I DREADED the idea of going...because I wondered if she'd resume contact with the OM, if she'd just finally give up and LEAVE to go be with him while I was gone, you name it.

Turns out, the day before I was scheduled to go, SHE came to ME about reconciling. I didn't go...and the rest is history.

I'm not saying that this will happen in your case. But...I just can't see leaving at this point, for all of the same reasons why I couldn't see myself doing it either in my situation.

Make your M the priority in your life now. I'm not saying you should hover over her that whole time you would have been gone, but let her know that you are THERE FOR HER IF SHE NEEDS YOU. You can't be while you're away on the trip.

Your call friend. You know your situation better than we do.

He's decided to go on his trip. We need the space.
-win

Win-

So what measures did the two of you agree on to ensure that you wouldn't be tempted to slip on NC and to engage in inappropriate contact with any other men while he's away?

Bassists & Win,
I’ve been lurking around this board, trying to gain a little insight, reading a few threads and then stumbled on to yours. And I have to say that it’s all very interesting. Very Southern Cal-ish to say the least. LOL

To bad I live back east because I think that you and your charming WW would be fun to know but (and I’m sorry to have to say it bro) NOT TO HAVE AS PARENTS! That’s for damn sure. If the current discourse between you two is any sample of how you work out your differences then you really need to look into sending your kids to boarding school.

Guys, I have to tell you both that I’ve never read a litany of more immature, spiteful and selfish trash in all my life. What saves you two is that you’re both so obviously charming, attractive and so very much in love! I just hope the both of you remember the last part of my observation…the part about you two being so much in love,… and take it to heart before you do so much damage that it can’t be repaired.

It’s obvious to me that you both need to grow up…and not just a little bit! So how about a “time out” during which you both just stop the foolishness? The spiteful paybacks and in your face kind “so how do you like it” kind of actions will kill all the good stuff you two have together faster then anything else ever will.

You know being right isn’t always the answer. Sometimes being able to tell some one you love that you’re hurting and right or wrong, what they’re doing is what’s causing the hurt. And has it occurred to either of you that hurting is some place you don’t want the person you love to be?

Mr. B, do yourself a favor…grow up a little bit and just cancel your trip. And then don’t make any more plans for separate vacations. Married people do vacations together. Get it? They don’t do separate…married people do “together.”

Don’t ask her or any one else if this is the right thing to do by the way. Just do it! You’re not a kid anymore and you know what needs to be done. It’s time to put childish things aside and to begin putting your priorities in proper perspective. And by the way, this is not to be used as a bargaining chip. You do it because it’s the right thing to do and because you love your wife and because your going away will make her unhappy and angry. Get it?

And Ms. Win Bin, in case it has escaped your notice, nice girls don’t have phone sex with strangers! Nice girls that are in love with their husbands and are the mother of children and want those children to grow up with both a mother and a father don’t flirt and have phones sex and have sex chat and make secret dates to meet OM! Why not? Because it’s simply the wrong thing to do…no matter what real or imagined motives you may come up with. They don’t do it because they have feelings of self worth that dictate that being some pervs stroke partner is not an activity calculated to make a marriage stronger or better. They don’t do it because it’s a self degrading activity. And they particularly don’t do it because it will hurt the person they love so deeply that the pain may never go away.

So Ms. Win Bin, my advice is that you *CAN* the anger and all the rest of the [censored] about what “he” is doing and did and begin to show yourself, your marriage and your children…get it…your children…the respect they and you are entitled to. And if you’re husband is misbehaving then settle your beef in the arena in which it belongs…MCing.

As for falling in love with some [censored] heel on line, will you please grow up! What are you an infant? Some teenage childish bimbo that falls in love with a guy’s line of [censored] or his voice? Do you even realize how lame this sounds?

Look, your husband was ready to walk out! Get it? He was and is talking divorce because he doesn’t want to have a wife who is acting out some pervs wet dreams! So stop making this into some emotional trauma and just quit doing it! And while you’re at it, stop with the withdrawal crap. It’s insulting to all of us for you to be using MB principals and ideas as an excuse for your willful and childish behavior.

You two don’t need marriage counseling. All you need to do is grow up and start remembering that loving each other is more important then anything else you will ever do. And that all the nasty sex and excitement in the world is not worth one tear that you cause the one you love to shed.

Coach

PS. Now be good children and behave yourselves.

I already asked her for a divorce last Saturday,
You "asked" her for one?
Why?
You want her to do the dirty work?

If you want one, file. You don't need her permission.

I will make a decision at that time whether I will go to Plan B or Plan D.
It's not usually one or the other.
It's usually Plan B, then divorce (for many good reasons).

Coach,
Thanks for the rant. First of all we are not bad parents. Granted things got carried away on this thread and much should be deleted.

I haven't felt in love w/my H in a long time, which is no excuse for letting myself fall in love with an OM (who was not a perv or scum, but a nice guy who got carried away and backed off immediately after H talked to him). I don't know if it can come back but I have to at least try which is what we are working on.

He did go on his trip.

My H encouraged me to flirt with guys online. Not that it makes it right,it is wrong. I'm just saying we both got caught up in the perversion. Which has stopped, yes.

And I had wanted to leave before he asked for a divorce. He had begged me to stay. Hopefully things will quiet down when he gets back.

Thanks for your input. I enjoy the bashing. At least you gave it to both of us!

So, WB, how's it going? How are you holding up?