Married over 20 years with 3 beautiful kids. My "wife" is emotionally leaving the marriage. She said she can't leave me because it is against her religion, but would prefer that I left. During our marriage, she often puts me down (doesn't know why she married me, saying she wants a divorce, saying she is emotionally leaving the marriage, calling me names in front on the kids, turns me down when I ask her out, etc etc.)

She no longer wants to kiss because she is afraid of germs, sex is a quickie once or twice a year, she has never said she loves me (and never says it to the kids), when I kiss her and say good night or good morning she won't even turn around or say anything. I came home early on our anniversary with flowers. She was on the phone and walked over to a corner and wouldn't even look at me.

I'm still showing her affection (kisses, notes, flowers, poems, etc), but never get anything back. My heart is on empty. She was a SAHM but is going back to school. She loves to shop and always needs the lastest car and a huge house. She doesn't know why I'm so concerned about our marriage. She said I need to be put myself more into my job and that I should be happy that she cooks for me and raises my kids.

I'm staying around because I do love and care for her and because the kids need SOMEONE to show them love. But I don't know how long I can hold up.

How long do people stay together for the kids and is there any hope for improvement after the kids are gone?

Maybe I just need to develop a steel heart.

do you suspect her being with another man? have you suggested counceling? Did she say she wants a divorce?

I've been in counseling for 6 months. I've asked her to go but she says we don't have a problem and I'm the only one that needs help.

She said she wanted a divorce several times, but never goes through with it. Now she says she can't divorce because of her religion.

She had an emotional affair before, she has flirted in front of me, she has told me little lies before. She now spends so much time on the kids, with her church, with her girl friends, and classes, and work, and house plans, that I don't think she has the time. I think her religion also prevents that.

Wow. I thought my problems were bad. Grow some testicles, man! You don't deserve any of this. Life is way too short to put up with that crap.

Is there anything about you that she has complained about?

Yes, here's a list:

Conversation-I'm very quiet, but enjoy conversation and am a very good listener. But she only wants to talk about her new house and otherwise can't sit down with me and just talk. She will talk to the lawn care guy for an hour, but has trouble saying hi to me. I've asked her to spend 15 minutes together alone to just talk, and she starts yelling about how selfish I am. Now I just make sure I've got some topics to discuss before I come home and try to start a conversation as soon as I get home.

Affection-she says I don't show her enough. I used to go on affection kicks: candle light dinners, touching, kissing, notes, flowers,.... After a few weeks without her even acknowledging them, I would quit again for a while. Now I'm just doing it constantly every day. I love to show affection and miss holding her, but it's hard when she is always pulling away.

Lust-She gets very upset when I spend time talking to other women (like relatives, neighbors, people at work...) She thinks I am lusting after them. She gets upset that I even look at other women. She thinks I was going on dating websites looks for other women. Whenever a dating site spam window would open up, she thought it was because I was using them.

Porn-I used to look at porn, but threw it all away about 8 years ago. She used to watch it with me (that was one of the few things that got her in the mood), but since she got more religious she wants nothing to do with it.

I keep trying, but nothing seems to make things better.

She's emotionally leaving the marriage, doesn't love you, shouldn't have married you, etc., etc., etc. So.....

'Affection-she says I don't show her enough"

So, why does she care? How can she expect any affection at all the way she's behaving?

"Lust-She gets very upset when I spend time talking to other women"

So, why does she care? She's emotionally left, which means she's abdicated her responsibility as a wife. Spiritually, she is no longer your wife. She's not having sex with you. Even if you are lusting after other women, it's no longer any of her business.

"Porn-I used to look at porn, but threw it all away about 8 years ago."

So, why does she care? What you did eight years ago has nothing to do with the here and now. Her newfound "religion" is false. If what you say is true, she isn't practicing any religion I have ever heard of.

Your wife is doing everything in her power to push you away and make you leave her. She's finished, but she's a coward, who is hiding behind "religion." I suspect there's another man (probably a very "religious" man) in her life. Stop trying. Nothing you can do is going to make a difference.

You should tolerate her behavior for about, oh, maybe 10 more seconds.

I guess I'm trying to be understanding because my wife has been through a lot in the last 8 years. We had three kids within 13 months, she had breast cancer (had one removed and decided to keep just one), had major depression after the kids were born, and had almost no friends.

Now she has made a lot of friends through the kids and is enjoying that for the first time.


We had several very good years together (Pocono's, Niagara Falls, Orlando, slow train ride across the country,...), some very intimate times (X-rated drive in, hot-tub fun, ...), we are both VERY good with the kids, and she was my closest friend. I guess I'm hoping if I can keep things going on my end and her life settles down, maybe there is a chance she will want to come back to me emotionally.

Has anyone had that actually work for them?

All those "problems" (they are also called life) and you stood by her. This is the thanks you get? So what's changed that she'd cast aside the man with whom she's built a life?

Hope won't make it. You can ride this out and wait, but you're going to need more than hope. You are going to need your wife to give you an explanation of this sudden change. Don't expect it, though. I suspect that one of those new "friends" is a man, who is more than a friend. She's already been down this road before and even rubbed your nose in it. Cheating is like alcoholism; you can't "cure" yourself without getting to the root of the problem.

For you to say that "maybe there is a chance she will want to come back to me emotionally" suggests that there is a reason for her to have emotionally abandoned you in the first place. If that is the case, what is it you have done and what can you do to correct it. See? ACTION not HOPE. If there is no reason for her to have abandoned, what motivation would there ever be for her to return? If she threw you aside for no reason whatsoever, how will you ever be able to trust her with your heart again?

She started emotionally leaving over 15 years ago. Things would seem OK for months and then she would lay a bomb on me. The bombs started coming more often, and in the last year or two there has been massive shock and awe attacks.

So I don't think it is a specific guy friend. I think she just thinks she could do better. I think she vents about me to her new girl friends. They probably validate her concerns about me and tell her she deserves better than me.

I think the main issue is that I'm not outgoing enough for her. When we used to go places that had lots of friendly alpha males socializing, she would get real upset and ask why I couldn't be like that. The neighbor guys were always nicer than me, other guys at dances always had more friends to talk to, I was never the happy outgoing jokester at social gatherings. I think that is what she really wants. I can only do so much at improving myself in that area.

I am starting to wonder why she hasn't left yet and why I haven't left yet. Right now I am only staying for the kids, because I think they would die if I wasn't there every day. I think I would also die if I had to be separated from them.

Been leaving for 15 years. Now she's gone on campaign to escalate it. May I ask your wife's age?

"I think the main issue is that I'm not outgoing enough for her. When we used to go places that had lots of friendly alpha males socializing, she would get real upset and ask why I couldn't be like that. The neighbor guys were always nicer than me, other guys at dances always had more friends to talk to, I was never the happy outgoing jokester at social gatherings. I think that is what she really wants. I can only do so much at improving myself in that area."

This is pure bunk. You are the man she married. She didn't realize that she preferred outgoing, more gregarious men before she said "I do?" In any event, you never have the right to demand that someone attempt to change their personality to maky you happy. Personality is immutable and cannot be changed. Unless she is emotionally retarded, she understands this, so we must conclude that this entire line of thinking is nothing more than rationalization, and rather childish rationalization at that. It makes her feel better to make it all your fault, when the truth is, she's a failure as a wife. What she is doing is breaking her marriage vow, a vow she swore before God. Ask her how she's squaring this with her "religion" and with God.

Well, she's told you why she hasn't left, but we know that that is a lie, don't we? My ex tried to make me be the one to go for a divorce. That way she could tell all her family and friends how I'd tossed her aside, thown our marriage away. I refused, so evenually, she had to do it. And I never let her off the hook for this. To this day I will tell her that the divorce was all hers and had nothing to do with me. Her divorce was a betrayal and I will never change my mind on this point. So if she wants out so badly, tell her to go. But the kids stay with you and you will never acknowledge anything other than she is a failure as a woman, wife and mother.

My wife is 47 and I'm 48. Maybe it's a mid-life crisis.

If I thought she and the kids would be better off without me, I would gladly leave. As long as I was still closely connected to the kids, I think I would be happier. If she wants to save face by making me the bad guy, that is her problem. I'd still know the truth and be able to sleep well at night.

I have told her if she wants to go that is her choice, and I'd even help her move, but that I'd prefer to work out our problems. But I think she is too comfortable with the life I've created for her.

One funny thing she said during one of her rants was that it would be OK if I lived across the street from her so I could spend a lot of time with the kids. She said she could even set me up with a new wife if I didn't want to be alone. What do you make of that?

I don't think I'd ever see my wife as a failure as a woman or mother. She doesn't show the kids much affection, but she is very good in other ways. She is also a very good cook and housekeeper. And about once a year the sex used to be fantastic.

I'm sorry your marriage ended so bad. Did you have similar issues with your wife? Don't you think you were at least partly responsible for the divorce?

Woemen don't have MLC in the way men do. But they have something similar. In the fifth decade, women very often begin to feel unsatisfied with their lives. They often develop a strong desire to be independent. It has been theorized that this is the reason the divorce rate for women in their 40s is higher than any other age group.

There were similarities in that my wife suddenly turned cold and unaffectionate to me for no apparent reason. I suspect this was about the time she started her EA with her OM, but I have no proof of that.

Was I at least partly responsible for the divorce? Absolutely not! When my W and I went into therapy, she leveled numerous "charges" against me. Some of these were not baseless. For example, she had previously complained that I was too caught up in my work, exhausted all the time, too frequently grumpy and disagreeable after a long day at the office. She was right. I heard her and I made changes more than a year before she leveled the accusation to the therapist. But most of them were basesless and the T told her that they were trivial and easily fixed by two intelligent people who communicated as effectively as we did (coomunication was never an issue between us). She asked my wife why she'd always been able to deal with these minor marital issues, but suddenly could not -- what had changed recently that would allow minor problems to put her marriage in jeopardy? The answer: you're having an affair. She told my wife she was fishing for justification for her affair.

My wife knew from the time the affair was exposed that I had no intention of divorcing her, but that I did demand that she end her relationship with her OM forever. All she had to do was let him go and I'd give her whatever time she needed to recover. What I would not do is shoulder the guilt of her infidelity for her. I was told that my demand was unreasonable, domineering, controlling and abusive. At first I was shocked about this, but then I learned she was participating in an online "support" forum for women who were cheating on their husbands. I checked it out and found that one woman had given this advice to my wife: "Your husband is abusing you!!! He has no right to dictate to you who you can and can't have sex with. Just because he's your husband doesn't mean he owns you. Women aren't slaves anymore. Dump that chauvinistic ******!" While she was participating in that poison factory, I was reading here.

So, no, I am in no way responsible for my ex-wife's divorce. That is her failure, not mine. I'm not bitter about this (as one or two people here have concluded) and I have forgiven my her. We are on very cordial terms now, though we haven't had much contact of late. But I won't take responisbility for a divorce I had nothing to do with and for which I did nothing to warrant.

Wow, it does sound like you tried to correct things but she had no desire to try. Sounds like she just gave up.

It does sound similar to what my wife is doing. She has been getting more independent. She got her own credit card, she now drives whenever we go somewhere together (I always drove before), she gets mad when I try to help her around the house, she took on all of the aspects of building a new house, went back to school, got a new job...Maybe she is also looking for a new husband.

I'm starting to feel used. It seems she only keeps me around because the kids adore me, and I bring home a big paycheck.

Did you find things better for you after she left?

Wow, I can't believe they have support groups for people having affairs. Why do they need support? To help them have a better affair?

Unbelievable!

Gave up? No, she didn't give up, she threw me and our marriage away for another man. There's a big difference. I was in the way. The cheater's fog is a strange place.

You're just starting to feel used? Your wife has emotionally divorced you, yet she stays around and continues to benefit from being married to you. You are being used.

"Did you find things better for you after she left?"

The answer to this question is multifaceted. My wife spent about eight months trying to get me to be the one to file for divorce. She turned everything into an argument. And I mean everything. She deliberately made my life a living ******. She would go off in the afternoon to some hotel or the other to spend time with her OM. She decided to go for an "in-house" seperation about five months before she filed for divorce. All the while, I had to act as if nothing was wrong at work. It took it's toll on me, though. I lost 35 pounds, wasn't sleeping well, and fighting depression - all on top of the near nighly battles. So, yes, once she was gone, things did get better for me.

But that's only one side of it. I loved my wife with all my heart. Not the raving maniac cheater she became, but the woman I married. While I was better off three months after she left than I was three months before, I certainly wasn't better off than I was five years ago, when we had a strong marriage -- the kind others envy. I understood that she didn't intend to have an affair and that she was manipulated into it by this sorry excuse of a man. He was also married and he was having affairs with three other women beside my wife (she didn't know this and wouldn't believe me when I told her). He deliberately drove a wedge in between us. I knew this, but was powerless to make her see the truth through the fog. So, I was afraid for her. I knew that she was thowing it all away for a liar, who would hurt her badly. I wanted to protect her. All I got for my efforts was her contempt. So after she was gone, I had to come to terms with all this and let her go without growing to hate her and without becoming bitter.

Now I am happy and at peace. So utimately I am better now that she is gone. Though I would still rather have her with me, with things the way they once were. That will never be, so I have moved on. How does one gauge what is "better" in such situations, since everything is relative?

B-I-N-G-O!!!

Write: "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultry, hypocrite" on a piece of paper. Photocopy it a zillion times and post the papers everywhere she will see them.

But I don't know for sure there is adultry. Maybe if I had some hard evidence first, I would do that. But that would surely lead to the big D. At least now there is some (but small) hope of saving the marriage.

Her having sex with another man is immaterial. You say that she's made a lot of friends and some of them are men. She's looking to them to get EMs met and that is by definition an emotional affair. She has shut down emotionally to ypu, which is a betrayal of your marriage. We do not know that she's having an affair, but her behavior is almost text book of that of someone doing so.

You should not be tolerating her behavior. You say that there is a small hope of saving your marriage. What marriage? I don't think you understand. She has already emotionally divorced you. Once a woman does that, she won't turn back. She's finished. If she doesn't have a man in her life now, she is definitely looking and she will have one soon enought. There are plenty of men out there ready to hook up with a married woman.

HeartOne,

What have you been doing for yourself? Are you a man of Christian faith? If you have ever felt any tingle of the Holy Spirit, then I encourage you to seek it out and embrace it ASAP. Start by reading Philippians 4:10 and keep reading everything from the bible relating to strength. If you're not a Christian then please excuse me, I don't mean to push it on anyone, but my faith in God has been my only consistent source of strength in my current situation.

If you are struggling with hope, I suggest you free yourself from it. Hope is a condition and depends on someone elses efforts. Focus on something immovable. If you have faith in any religion, then focus on it and the related teachings regarding the eternal love of your creator. She cannot take that away from you. So, instead of hoping or praying that your marriage works out, have faith that the right thing will come of this. She is tearing you apart. You sound honest and kind. You do not deserve her cold heartedness. But you will be rewarded for your pain and sacrifice. If your marriage must end, forgive her and fight your bitterness, learn and find a better love.

One thing is for certain. If you learn more about your wife's "religion", you'll be able to disable her ability to use it as a defense. Does her fellow churchgoers know she's married? Have you thought about suggesting religious marriage counseling at her church? Go to church with her. Show her and her congregation that you are loving, supporting, and participating in her faith. In the event that she's involved with/or interested in someone at church, you may be able to disrupt that interference with nothing more than your presence.

May you be blessed,
Tx

I've been going to church with her since we married, but she keeps jumping from church to church.

For the last few months I have been meeting alone with the same person she has been seeing at our church. He also saw that she has left the marriage and has been praying and working to try to help us. We have mostly been working on my faith, but wants to get joint counseling started soon. I'm guessing she won't go.

I have started writing little prayers for her and us and putting them in her bible. She hasn't even acknowledged them.

At least I'm at a point where I know it is in God's hands and that things will work out one way or the other.

If your wife says you don't show her enough affection, have you asked her what she wants specifically. From a woman's point of view, sometimes men can try hard, but miss the target. Ask her to tell you exactly what affection means to her.

Some of her behaviour sounds a bit like depression to me. Do you think the removal of her breast had anything to do with her change of behaviour. Self immage is a big thing for a woman, and depression over it might cause her to push you away and lose interest in sex. So could guilt over A, or feelings for another man. Is there any way you can find out for sure?

Don't spend your whole life chasing her if she just keeps running. Whether the problem is 'you' or 'her', you can't help her fix it while she is pushing you away.

I told my H to leave until he is ready to sort out the problems because he was running from me in a similar way. Turned out to be an affair. I do want him back, but whether that happens or not, I am in a better place now than I was when I was with him.

I say leave, and see if she comes after you. If she doesn't, you will know, and be free to move on.

Good luck

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to find out more about what affection means to her. My wife won't talk to me about any real issues. That just gets her more upset.

I've definitely thought about leaving, but that would also mean leaving our three little kids. They would be crushed. To them I'm their Dad, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus.

I'm the only one that shows them affection and laughs with them. I'm the only one that kisses them good morning and good night. I'm the one they come to when they are hurting.

Leaving would also make the kids think I was leaving them.

Funny that she uses religion for the reason that she can't leave... I think that I would be looking into her religion and if it's anything like I suspect... I would tell her that her religion not only says that divorce is wrong... but that the religion would want the partners in the marriage to work together towards reconciliation and commitment...

I think you would probably find that religion was just being used as an excuse at that point.

If not...if she is really concerned about her religion and doing what is right then you have a chance...

Sestep

I've been wondering the same thing. She seems to be hiding behind only part of her religion. She has told me I've been a horrible husband and said justice will be served. But I keep thinking religion is more about forgiveness than justice.

I'm trying to get her in joint counseling with someone at her church. Maybe they can explain her religious views to me.

You can talk this over with her minister and ask for an intervention (with or without you). I can gaurantee you that a good minister is going to tell her that her attitude and behavior runs contrary to her faith and that she must change.

She actually filled out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire for me last night! I left it in her bathroom a few days ago with a religious card and a note saying I want to learn how to make things better for her. It is a start.

Her concerns were that I'm "deceptive and so morally corrupt that things are hidden on purpose. Give her very little emotional support. Mostly a competitive or passive atmosphere. It must be genuine, not wanting something in return, and that I'm not a good moral, spiritual leader for the family. I do not like to be deceived in conversation or judged. I'll only converse if I trust the other person's motives."

Ouch! But at least that is a start to some interaction. I've asked her to sit down with me and/or our spiritual leader to discuss the results.

HeartOnE, I'm writing to you as that wife who emotionally left the marriage and then I finally physically left the marriage.

You are definetly in a tough spot!!! I'm not your wife But if you'll bare with me my story may help you. I'm hoping this will give you some understanding in how a woman's mind thinks.

It's very possible your wife has transfered her emotional feelings to someone else, if not a full-blown affair. She maybe holding back on the sex part b/c of religion. (It's sort of like what the alcoholic tries to tell himself that if I wait till Noon to have my first drink than I'm not an alcoholic.) Something I didn't realize and she may not realize now is that she's still in violation of her marriage vows being emothionally withdrawn. As you know, sex is not the only determining factor of an affair. (This is what I did to cope.)

My background is this; A lot of things happened with my first husband that I can now realize happened b/c both of us were young and immature. I started to withdraw from my husband b/c he didn't seem to care about my feelings. He didn't seem willing to try and understand me. He could be harsh and uncaring. He worked many hours, didn't seem to want to help with the kids or the household chores and didn't have an interest in church or a relationship with God. I would try and talk with him and he often discounted my feelings. I would do activities that he wanted and he refused to do things with me that I liked. I felt like I was doing all the giving. I was hurt, angry and frustrated!!! My husband would not share his inner thoughts and everything we talked about was surface.

To survive, I started making friends, getting involved in hobbies, devoting my time to the kids, etc. Before I knew it, my husband and I were just housemates. He too learned a way to cope with whatever was going on for him, he started drinking more. The drinking only made things worse between us. We really lacked communication skills!!!! I lacked boundaries! I thought I could talk to other men and be alone with them and not get caught up in crossing a line. I was wrong! Emotionally, I would end up crossing the line. It was something I needed desperatly and I began looking for it from just about anywhere.

By the time my X decided to try and change things, I was too far away, too angry. (We'd been married about 20 years at that point.) I look back now and can see all the wonderful, loving things he tried to do to make me happy. He brought me flowers, gave backrubs, would tell me to go out and do something for myself, etc. I couldn't see them as they happened unfortunatly. I dismissed them b/c I wanted more communication on a deeper level between us. In many ways, I became very selfish. I ended up initiating the divorce. I stayed in the relationship 23 years. The emotional divorce started in the 7th year. Hmmmm! Not so good.

I shopped a lot also. Your wife is probably using shopping and material things as a way to feel better. Maybe the material things are the only things she ever felt she could rely on from you. Unfortunatly, material items only bring happiness for a short lived time. Then a person has to move onto the next item in order to feel relief. Also, shopping is a diversion. It can help occupy the mind so one doesn't have to think about that "other" stuff.

I don't know if any of this sounds familiar and I'm not sure if you can get your wife's attention or not. If my X-H would have gently taken my face,looked deeply into my eyes and apologized for not being there for me when I needed him, whether he or even I would have known it at the time, he would have caught my attention. If he'd of lovingly talked about how he understood why shopping was important to me and again apologized for not being there for me emotionally and now realizing that this was the reason I had turned to outside activities, I would have felt like he'd crawled inside my head. I know I sure would have been watching his words and actions to see if he was for real. Him apologizing would have caught my attention. This is not something he would do. (I've learned that this is something most men have a hard time doing.)

I had gotten to a point in my life that I just figured he would do things for a little while and then it always felt like things would go back to the way they'd always been. I didn't trust him. I didn't trust him to care for my emotional needs, he'd failed in the past. I don't think my husband was as uncomfortable as I was with what was going on. He didn't become uncomfortable enough until I filled for the divorce and he was served.

You will have to make some decisions for yourself. How willing are you to stick with this? How willing are you to set boundaries? How patient are you with wooing her back? If you really want to make it work, what are you willing to do to get her attention and get her where she's willing to consider working at your relationship again? There's no right or wrong answers. You just need to decide where you are at and what you want to do. You could decide to do everything to make it work and still she may want out at this time. Most women though, do think, if they really seem something different going on in their husbands.

Some great books by Gary Smalley, Dr. Harvey, Emerson Eggerich, James Dobson to name a few are out there. These people talk about the differences in husbands and wives and explain how we can work thru them. Check out the website at www.loveandrespect.com. It has a lot of great articles and tools. Emerson Eggerich has some great ideas on what women/wifes and what men/husbands need to hear from their spouses. He talks about Men's most important need is respect and women's most important need being love.

Continue to help yourself. Learn about yourself. It's important. (I don't think men are encouraged enough nor allowed to feel and share their emotions.)

You and your wife both have some spiritual decisions to make. If you don't learn the lesson now, believe me life will give you another opportunity somewhere along the way to learn it. Get into another relationship and after the "In-Love" phase dies down, the same type of issues will surface with your new partner. Your new partner maybe harder to deal with then your first wife. (My 2nd husband is much harder to deal with.)

Just some food for thought. . .

Wow, this is exactly the type of insight I was looking for!!

How do I start being there for her emotionally? I've suggested us spending time together each day talking, I've asked her out to spend time together, I try to be understanding when she is upset.... What does it really mean to be there for her emotionally? I'm dying to be able to talk to her and share my concerns and feelings. And I want to know what is going on deep inside her. But when I do bring up my deep concerns, she takes this as been an attack on her. Or she gets mad that I'm so weak and needy (when I'm not!). I want to be able to share with her without feeling she will be mad or upset.

I'm the giver in this marriage, and she is a definite taker. I'm always helping with the kids, helping with the housework, helping fix things around the house, going to church together, etc. I do all of the hugs and kisses and I Love Yous and love notes, flowers, and putting prayers in her bible. But she doesn't return any affection and has never been able to say she loves me. I do all of the things she suggests and let her follow her dreams. But when I have ideas or want to pursue something, I usually get dismissed. She also dismisses my affection as unreal and just trying to save the marriage.

I don't think another partner would be any different and would probably be worse. Maybe I'm just not that good at being a husband. I want to be with her. It would just be nice to know she also wanted to be with me.

Quest is so right. I was the leaving wife as well in my first marriage. My exh was so selfish and nothing I could do would wake him up to that. He promised to change so many times but didn't. By the time he woke up, I had already emotionally divorced him. He tried, but it was just too much and at the time I thought it would be easier to go than to stay. I was so wrong. My exhusband is still selfish and hasn't changed but I still have guilt that I couldn't give more or do more to change the marriage.

I'm not being critical of you, you sound like a wonderful husband. Truly, a man most women would want. I think perhaps some tough love might be in order?? I know my opinion differs from some here but have you read Love Must be Tough by James Dobson?

Right now, your wife has emotionally divorced you. You guys live like roommates but she has all the advantages of being married while you don't. I think you should tell her that the only way you guys can stay together would be to go to marriage counseling. Otherwise you are going to upset her little apple cart by separating. As much as she is about appearances she won't like that. Tell her that you now want to start getting something out of the marriage if you want to stay and the first way to do that is with joint counseling.

If my exh would have read Love Must be tough he might have been able to save our marriage. The book tells you at length what not to do. He did everything it says not to and I'm ashamed to say that I didn't listen to his begging and pleading. He deserved more than that from me after 13 years of marriage.

My second marriage is much happier than the first. I feel like a partner and lover. I still regret hurting my first husband however and wish someone would have given me some straight talk at that time.

Some how, some way, you will have to win her trust. It's going to take time. It's going to take patience. Before you can get to the deeper issues, you have to be able to comfortably talk about the lesser ones.

What has happened that she feels your deceptive? What makes her think that when you do something for her, you are expecting something in return? Did you maybe give her a backrub, she started to relax, you start getting sexually excited and sort of pushed for SF? My X-H use to do that and it really made me distrust his motives. Did she ask you to do something she enjoyed and you complained and mopped the entire time you were doing this event? She is basically telling you that she doesn't trust you. Are you courageous enough to ask her to give you one example in your lives that would help you understand what she's talking about? Are you willing to listen to what she says? That means you can not discount what she felt or thought about that example. It's important not to defend yourself. It's very important to just listen. . . Think you can thank her for sharing and helping you to understand why she's hurt? These are the ways you rebuild trust. This is very tough stuff!

Can you pinpoint what events happened in your lives that you felt her pulling away emotionally? There's a book out there called "10 Lies Husband tell their Wives." You might benefit from reading something like that. I glanced throught it today at the bookstore and found an insight that was so true. Often times husbands tell us they'll do something next week but next week never comes. (Cut the grass, fix the broken fixture, change the oil in the car, etc.) If this pattern continues, a wife will feel lied to. Are there other things you've only told a half truth on to your wife? Have you with held information on something b/c you thought you would just spare her from worrying? Just think about it. . .

I am going to have to look at home and see what Gary Smalley book I read that talked about winning someone back. I do remember he told this husband to give her what she wanted and more. So I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Have you decided that you will do and be everything you can be to win her love back? It's going to take a lot of work to do this. You are somewhere along the line going to need guidance. You are getting guidance and insight from this website. That's a good start and I believe I read that you are also speaking to the pastor. Continue to build your faith and reliance in God, it's important!

In the book "Love & Respect" Eggerich explains that the most "mature" person is the one who is going to work on improving the marriage. This can mean your wife is 90% at fault and you are going to own up to your 10%. This is hard work believe me, I've been trying to do it. Some very wise people keep reminding me that I can only change myself. Hopefully because of these changes, my husband will be compelled to come along. I'm going to challenge you to the same thing. Work on yourself. Stop worrying about fixing her, leave that job to God. Build your relationship with God, and he'll guide you, honest!

I wish I had time to say more. I will check back again and keep your situation in thought and prayer.

Thanks for the excellent advice!

After she filled out the emotionally needs survey I thanked her for being so honest with me and asked her if we can spend some time talking about the results. She said she will think about it.

I will definitely ask her why she feels she can't trust me. I think a lot of it does go back to the porn that I used to hide in the house. Didn't look at it much, just hid it. It's been gone for about 8 years now, but the suspicion is still there.

Lately, I've been hiding relationship books and books like the the Praying Husband. Not from her, but just so the kids don't get into them. If been visiting the pastor and going to small group meetings in the church without letting her know where I am going. I just feel my walk with Christ is something I need to do for myself. I don't want her to know about it so that she thinks I am doing this just to win her back. I've been saying prayers with the kids only when she isn't around. I didn't feel comfortable doing that in front of her because she might think it was just fake. But yesterday I did finally do it in front of her.

The emotionally separation is probably due to several events. She said I wasn't a supportive husband when she had breast cancer. And when the kids were born, it didn't feel like we really connected during that time. Also, when we used to go places together I was never very outgoing and talkative. She also likes going to small church groups. We quit going because she felt I wasn't really enthusiastically into it. I think all of those may have contributed to the emotional divorce.

She has complained that there are lots of things I don't get fixed right away. Our patio door broke and it took me a long time to get the part I needed. She kept harping on that. But after the part came in 6 weeks later, she realized I hadn't neglected it.

How did you know I gave her a backrub once and pushed the SF key? But that was 10 years ago and we haven't done that since. Maybe now I know why.

I've decided to try everything and keep trying until she either divorces me or I die. Some nights I feel I have already died. But I just don't want her to feel I'm too desperate, because that would drive her away. I think fault is more 50-50 or even more my fault. I haven't been there for her emotionally and the porn issue really hurt our marriage. Nights are so lonely I often just want to give up. But after kissing my kids goodbye in the morning, I'm recharged for awhile.

I have realized that I can't change my wife and if she does leave there is nothing I can do about it. I've put my faith in God and have been doing things for myself and to make myself better. Like biking, walks, church groups, volunteering, Tai Chi (oops that's another thing I did that I haven't told her about). Right now we are planning to build a house, so it looks like we will physically be together for awhile. But I think she just wants to stay in roommate mode. I don't think she wants the marriage back. Sometimes it just feels like she is using me to get the house and kids that she wants without having a real marriage. Her emotionally needs survey said she was very happy not having sex again. Ouch!

Thanks. How long have you been trying? I'll be praying for you too. Good luck!! Keep strong!

Your welcome. I'm glad that the experiences I went through are giving you some insight into what maybe going on in your relationship with your wife.

I hold a lot of sadness about my insistance to divorece my 1st husband and not work things out. At the time, our relationship seemed hopeless and while I thought I was walking with God. . .Well that's another story in its self.
All I can tell you on that is I never got out of God's way so some of the miracles could happen.

As for the backrub, I didn't know that had happened in your life, I was sharing what happen in mine. (I felt tricked and violated back then.) I've been learning more about the differences between men and women and have a greater understanding of how a "backrub" can become such a misunderstood event. Men are more visual in most cases than women. It only makes sense "physically" how a H can become excited. On the other hand, a woman is appreciating the nurturing. Most women want to know that they are more than a sex object to their H. I wanted to believe that my husband was offering an act of love/nurturing and when he started pushing for more, that's where the misunderstanding took place. Something I once heard at a therapy group was "Hurt people, hurt people." (It's true. When I feel hurt by what someone has done, I often want to hurt them back so they know how it felt.)

It sounds like there are lots of hurts from the past that never got resolved. Again in studies it has been found that men will let go/forget about the little problem the day before. Women on the other hand, if we don't feel like we got to talk about it or if we don't feel that our H understood, it's not resolved. We have the tendency to put that little problem/event in our "Unresolved Events File" for safe keeping. Have you ever noticed how well a W is at reminding a H about all the facts to a past event? We can be very historical when we start arguing! That's how we are wired. On the other hand, you probably can barely remember the event and don't know why it's such a big deal. That's how you're wired. If we start to understand our differences, it's easier not to take things so personal.

Your intuition about not making a big deal about the books you're reading or the church things you're participating in is probably wise at this time. You are right, she might feel you are doing these things to win her back. It's important to own them if she asks about them.

It does sound like your wife might be fighting depression. I'm sure it's a compilation of hurt from the things that happened between the two of you, the demands a woman faces being a Mom and finding out and dealing with Breast Cancer just to point out a few things I've read in your postings. She may not like her self-image when she looks in the mirror. I've not had to deal with the loss of a breast so I don't know what that's like. With all the attention that's placed on appearance these days, I know I would feel ashamed possibly about what my body looks like due to that illness. (I fight with being overweight.) There's an unspoken message that the commericials on TV and society gives about aging. For men, it seems that as they age we call them "mature." Having gray hair and a few wrinkles is a mature look for a man. For a woman, we say she looks old. "Rode Hard." Not very attractive statements.

As I'm sure you can tell, I read a lot and research on the web. I can rattle off tons of great books to read but one I think could be very helpful at this time is Love & Respect by Emerson Eggerich. With your knowledge aboun LB and EN from this website and Dr. Harvey's book, I believe that Love & Respect will help with the spiritual side of things. It talks about some of the differences between men and women. He gives insight into the Bible passages that talk about men loving their wives and women to respect their husbands. I had never looked at these things from those pespectives. It was very enlightening.

I've been wanting a better relationship with my husband for about 3 years now. I have trouble with boundaries. That's the part I have to work on and learn, at least at this time. I actually needed to learn this in my first marriage. I take too much responsibilty for the other person and don't allow them to live with the consequences of their actions. I've got to learn some balance in my life. Hang in there. God knows your heart. Read the book of Job. Now that guy had some problems. LOL

I have noticed my wife's talent for total recall. The last time she blew up on me, she brought up something I said in jest about 10 years ago!! She had been talking on the phone with my sister for a few hours. Afterwards I said "Is she like your best friend now?". She took that wrong and I didn't hear about it for 10 years! It makes me wonder what other dirt she has been saving on me for the last 20 years!

There might be some depression involved. She had major depression a few times before. I can't imagine how it must feel to a woman to only have one breast left. I guess I haven't been that concerned about how she looks. I still thinks she looks great. I have never seemed to care that much about what women look like after I first meet them. Beauty attracts my attention at first, but then I usually look for an inner beauty and some connection. We had that for a while, but the connect died years ago.

I hope this is only a test of my faith and love for my wife. I wonder if I'll pass. It does seem like these relationship problems shouldn't be that important to us when we consider all of the people in the world suffering from illness, dying of hunger and wars. Overall, we have it very, very good, and I guess we should be happy with what we do have.

I would never resort to begging and pleading. I told my wife if she really wanted to leave, I would help her move, but I would prefer to work on fixing our marriage. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me. If I truely make her totally unhappy, I would do the honorable thing and leave.

I tried some tough love. I told her if she wouldn't go to counseling with me that I wasn't building her a new house. But she sold our current house anyway and has kept working on the new plans. I gave in and have let her continue working on the new house. I guess that was a major mistake, but we already had lots of money sunk in the new house and had to move anyway.

I guess I need to read the Tough Love book.

I think I have another reason I haven't left yet. I'm afraid of what it would do to her mentally since she has had severe depression before.

I went with my last girlfriend for 3 years (lots of affection both ways, good communication, lots of groping but no real sex). We were very young and decided to split up while we went to different graduate schools. Right after she told her mother, her mother committed suicide. I think it might have been because of us, because her mother was strongly in favor or us being together. I don't think I could handle the emotional stress again.

That was painful memory!

Wow, you sound like you can be held hostage easily with guilt. Do you have trouble setting boundaries?

It's sad to hear that people take their lives and those of us that are still around never seem to forget. I've had a couple of people I know commit suicide. They had a lot of underground problems and pain that most of us had no idea about. I use to wonder what I could have done differently. Truth is, in the long run I think these people still would have done what they did.

How about you, are you fighting depression? You too are under a lot of stress.

I think I am over the worst of my depression, although it still comes back sometimes. When I'm around my kids (without my wife around) the depression is gone. Sometimes late at night or early in the morning things get though.

My counselor and pastor have been helping with the self-esteem and depression. And for making me realize that her anger is HER anger, and she would be directing it at anyone that married her. I now realize her anger is not all about me so it is easier for me to not let it hurt me. I've been a lot happier lately: whistling all the time, enjoying the kids, socializing, etc. I think my happiness is really eating at my wife.

Setting what boundaries? Do you mean how much I let other people affect me? With my wife originally I had no boundaries because I thought I could trust her completely to be supportive and not hurt me. She had assess to all of me. Now with the strained marriage she still has total assess to any part of me she wants to hurt. But now that she has broken my trust, the barriers are coming up for protection.

I divorced my husband in 2003 thinking it would solve these same sorts of issues. Now it is 2005 and we miss our life partners because as difficult and painful as it can be to stay where you are, it is unimaginable to divorce especially where children are involved. You will be divorcing your wife, her friends, and her family. What is helping us understand how we went from soul mates to divorced after 10 years and raising 2 kids together is a book by Dr. Gary Chapman titled The Five Love Languages. It sounds like Acts of Service may be her primary love language, Receiving Gifts might be high on yours. He also wrote one for kids. If she has been a SAHM to three kids her mothering skills are likely very important to her. Maybe try giving her that book The 5 Love Languages For Kids and have each kid write how they would like to receive her love. When we are in it we can't see it. Only time passing can help us see that. Divorce is so much more painful than any other thing in life I've experienced...and I've experienced some pretty painful things. Living it is very different for people who still carry love for their life partners. It seems obvious you love her. Keep trying...Show your kids what true commitment is really about..

Thanks for the excellent advice and support. I have been close to throwing in the towel a few times, especially late at night. Thanks to notes like yours I make it for another day. Then when I see the kids the next day I remember why I haven't given up.

Today I came home to all three of them with huge smiles singing the preamble to the constitution and tonight the house was filled with laughter as the kids chased the dog around the house. Then my oldest (8) gave me a Subway discount card. He knew I eat there almost every day and bought it by himself with his own money! How can I not keep trying for them?

We did the love languages about 7 years ago. Mine was physical contact and hers was time together. Service used to be near the bottom of her list. I wonder if we took it again if her's has changed?

I'll have to get the one for kids. Great idea!

I realize a divorce will be painful for everyone and will not make things better. I hope someday she understands that too. I do love my wife for who she is. She is a great mom, a great cook, she watches out for everyone's safety, she is very friendly and talkative, she is desperately searching for God, she is very smart and wants to learn about everything, she still looks great, when she is interested the sex is fantastic. It is just hard because she has no interest in my #1 love language and her anger is my major love buster.

I hope in time she will realize that I do love her, and she will want to try to be married again. And I hope she will someday be happy and fullfilled, feel loved, and be at peace.

Thanks for getting me through another rough night!

I'd like to throw something out there to you. How much do you know about your wife's childhood - teenage years? Maybe that's not the only question, How much does she remember about those years? I say this b/c a therapist would see some "red flags" being raised. A therapist would probably start probing to find out what's happened that's made her shy away from the sexual part of her marriage. Just a thought. . .

I'm glad your children keep you hanging in there.Their smiles and innocence make life lighter and more meaningful. (Although when they hit their teens you sometimes wonder?) My girls helped me make it one more day. So many times I thought about ending it all but then I'd be leaving my daughters with the same people I had so many issues with. Who would protect them? Not the best reason at the time to stay on the Earth but it kept me here until I got healthier.

Hang in there! I know it can be hard. When things seem really dark, reach out for some support. Read the children a book or make a tent house in the middle of the livingroom. Those tent houses were always good for a few laughs and surprises.

I glad you decided to stay on Earth. I've never gotten that low because there are too many things I enjoy doing. My work and kids and hobbies are very fullfilling. My worst thoughts are only about ending the marriage.

The tent houses are great aren't they! And the tree houses, the spy clubs, the stuffed animal zoos,... They are true marvels! There is no greater feeling than snuggling up next to the kids and reading with them! Except for the good night hugs. Oh, and the huge smiles when I come home. Oh, and... OK it's all good when the kids are around!!

I really don't know anything about her teenage years. She doesn't talk about them at all. Her mother is a very negative, dominant, controlling person. Her mother is not a very loving, caring person. I can only imagine how much that negativity must have hurt her when she was growing up. And I'm sure she is trying to model her mother's behavior now. I almost ran when I met her mother and dysfunctional family, but I thought my wife could never turn into that!

She did break down once and told me she wasn't going to let her mother control her anymore. She also had a few boyfriends that used her.

Don't ever think of giving up! There are too many people that actually love and need us around.

Quest Girl - You described me completely in your post! I am feeling, thinking all these things you have pointed out and just realzed them as I was reading them. I will for sure go and get the books you recommend - if just so I can communicate with my H - who I think is having an EA - maybe its all because we dont know how to communicate?! Wow! Thank you!

I don't know if anyone is still reading this, but I just need to write down my thoughts. It helps me cope.

In her emotional needs questionnaire, my wife said she is happy not having sex and doesn't like my affection because she thinks it is false. She said she will only consider sex in a "marriage environment". OK, maybe it's just me, but I thought we were already married! I guess she has decided the marriage is over. Everyday she cuts out another part of my heart and throws it away.

Today was a good day with the kids. I helped out at their basketball games and football games. I got to take my oldest out to eat by myself. I love being around little kids!!

Our pastor has talked with both of us separately. He sees I have been making a sincere effort to fix the marriage and better myself. He said she is much too hard on me and she needs to at least acknowledge my efforts. He has said she is very hard hearted.

My birthday is coming up. #49. I wonder where I will be living next year when I hit 50. My best guess is she will be living in her big new house, and I'll be in a rented out room. One time after she had ranted at me, she left by saying she wanted me to leave but was going to get her main floor laundry! We have laundry in the basement now and she has been trying to build or buy a house with main floor laundry. It looks like that is the only thing she wants from the marriage.

She said if I built the new house for her we could have stayed together for another 10 years. I asked her what would happen after 10 years and she didn't say anything. It seems like after she gets her big house and the kids are gone, then so is she. So what incentive do I have for staying another 10 years? I do get to spend more time with the kids and be closer to them. Other than that, there really are no reasons to stay.

Thanks for listening!

Today was a little easier. I slept on the couch last night, and she didn't say anything. She wouldn't talk to me all morning. After church she looked at me with the maddest look on her face. It really made her look old. I didn't realize how hard the years have been on her.

But then her female friends showed up, and she was suddenly happy and chipper and smiling. She wouldn't even introduce me.

I spent all day fixing things around the house and playing with the kids. She fixed us lunch and then ate standing up so she wouldn't have to sit with us.

Tonight I kissed the back of her head goodnight. And she just lay there and didn't move or say anything. I wish she would either decide to try to do something to save our marriage or leave. Why would she even want to stay married like this?

Hi Heart,

I'm usually on the EN boards but popped over here today. Man, what a sad state of affairs. I admire your courage and strength.

Personally, I don't think the W deserves the new grand house and technically you are paying for it right? I wouldn't do it. The house won't be a 'home' and it won't make her happy. She's just occupying her mind and being selfish. Once she gets her house you will be dispensable (unless of course she can't pay for it).

I wouldn't move out either. She doesn't want the M then she is the one who pays the price, not you, not your kids. Your lives shouldn't be disrupted for her poor choices.

I agree, she is hiding behind her religion and I would use that to your benefit especially since she is. Point out the ways in which her religion show her that what she is doing is not right either. We don't get to bend and twist it to suit our wants and needs. It is what it is. We live by it or we don't. There isn't room for hipocrasy.



Tell her that. Burst her bubble and make her think. Don't make this fluffy and easy for her. Make her responsible for her actions and choices. As of now she gets it all. An H who bends over backwards, pays the bills, funds her expensive housing project and is accepting nothing in return.

Read up on boundaries and tough love. I agree not informing her of your church attendance and study into faith is a good idea. However, get some books like the Love Languages for couples and kids, maybe Harleys books and leave the around. That gives her the opportunity to educate herself as well as showing that despite what she CHOOSES to think, you are trying.

It sounds like she is trampling all over you and her heart is cold. I don't believe this all comes from just you and may have ALOT to do with her upbringing. People do often mirror thier parents. They don't realize it unless someone tells them. They don't know any other way to be unless someone shows them or they decide they want to be different and seek that out. Your W may never be the loving affectionate women towards you or your children but she doesn't have to be cold and indifferent.

Just my thoughts.

Symphony

With everything you described from this weekend, I'd be asking that question too! BUT - From what you say in your postings, she's got it pretty good. You play and watch the kids, you're building her a new home (with that 1st floor laundry) and you're the one that's trying so hard. What's happening that would motivate her to change?

What does the pastor and your therapist suggest to you? There has got to be a fine line between doing your best to be loving and supportive versus being a doormat.

I've had to look at what I've been doing that is hurting my marriage. My biggest fault is not setting boundaries! This is why I often feel resentful and like I'm a doormat. I've stopped focusing on trying to get my husband to see how verbally abusive he is, how self-centered he can be and how angry he gets at the world in general. Instead, I'm doing my best to tell him how something feels or affects me, especially if it hurts! To set the boundary if he's yelling that I'm going to leave the room, house, whatever it takes until he calms down. Because I just sit quietly sometimes and not share what's going on inside just allows him to repeat the behavior. When he yells, sometimes I cry, sometimes I withdraw, sometimes I yell back and sometimes I find hurtful things to hurl at him because I feel so hurt! None of this has helped solve anything.

In many ways my husband is very immature in certain areas. He doesn't take responsibility for the things he does. He trys to pin the blame on someone or something where ever possible. He also likes to control! When we first married, he would compare me to his X-wife if I did something he didn't like. I hated that and was always trying to prove him wrong by being nicer. From now on, if he should do that, I'm going to say that I don't feel respected when I'm compared to one of his past wives. (I still need to figure out what I can say that isn't pointing fingers and shaming as much as it's saying NO to the behavior.) Another thing that he would do is tell me he'd had enough and just get in his car and take off. This would send me into a panic and I would either call him on his cell phone or chase after him to come back. Needless to say, I try not to do those things any longer.

I never really learned to set boundaries. My mother was a very cold, manipulative needy person. Whenever I tried to set a boundary with her, she'd find a way to "guilt" me into doing it her way. In fact one time when I'd had enough and said I was leaving the house, she told me she would commit suicide if I walked. Needless to say, I was never allowed to grow-up and seperate from her. And because my mother lived in such a "fairy-tale" world I sort of picked up some of that thinking myself. Yuck!

So I'm getting another chance to learn what I didn't get to before. One of the problems I faced in my 1st marriage was that I was married to a man that had a difficult time expressing himself. As much as I wanted to know what he was thinking and get closer, he couldn't seem to do it. That's one of the things that drew me to my 2nd husband. He was able to verbalize his thoughts. For the first time in my life I was getting to hear what thoughts go on inside a man's mind. (Of course now I feel I get to hear all his thoughts and he doesn't stop and give me a chance to voice mine.) Go figure! Sort of reminds me of the song "Isn't it Ironic."

I'm glad you use this site to safely share and hopefully work out some of those thoughts and feelings that you're faced with each day. Hope things are more tolerable today.

Thanks for the support! Today was a VERY good day. My wife was gone all day to class!!!!, so I was with the kids by myself all day!! She came home at 9pm and went straight to bed. I kissed the back of her head goodnight again (no response).

I loved being with the kids by myself! Hugged each one as they got off the bus, listened to their piano lessons, fixed them a steak dinner, said a great dinner prayer together, argued for 20 minutes about whether they loved me more than I loved them (they lost!), talked about how great my Dad was and how he is now in heaven (the kids seemed really excited about someday going to heaven, but I told them to enjoy their time here first), did homework together, practiced for a quizz on the constitution, read a book, got a snack, kissed them good night, ... and then grumpy came home.

My pastor says to keep showing her service and affection no matter what. And to keep loving her, either as a wife or as we are to love our enemy. It is her choice which way she wants to be loved. He thinks a marriage can be saved even if only one of the spouses wants to save it. That happened in his first marriage before his first wife died. I think he is also working with some of her connections at the church to get her to change. My therapist says that I can't change her unless she wants to change, so I just need to do things for myself and learn to deal with the lack of affection and lack of sex. She was telling me I might have to learn how to be celebate like a priest if I really want to keep the family together! I told her that keeping the family together was my main goal (at least for now). But my therapy has taught me to stand up to her and not let her control me. And not to let her anger hurt me. Lately, when she starts to rant at me, I'll say something calmly and leave (go biking or walking or fixing something in the garage). Then I just wait until she calms down. I used to withdraw to protect myself like you did, but that would just hurt me and the kids. They both think my wife's actions are from her feelings of inadequacy learn in her childhood. And she is projecting her anger at herself onto me.

My therapist has been giving me some lines to use when my wife is angry. Now I say things calmly (without returning the anger), like "I know that you think ..., but I disagree...", "It hurts me when you...", and using "I" sentences that don't attack back. But it's hard to remember to use them when things get tense.

Wow, it sounds like it was a nightmare for you growing up! How can a parent threaten suicide to their kids! I really feel your pain at growing up with that kind of controlling mother. I was lucky that my family was VERY happy, open, and caring. My parents were amazing!

I think it's really hard to find the right person for life, especially since both spouses are constantly changing. I think a marriage will only work if BOTH spouses are willing to try to grow together and aren't afraid of seeing their spouse change. And will still love them no matter how they change.

I'm sorry you've had such problems with your marriages. Why is it so hard to live a loving, peaceful, happy life with someone that has vowed to do that with you? We just need to find a way to become equal partners and true lovers (mentally and physically) and share our joys and sorrows.

Thanks for sharing. I hope this site is helping you too!

My wife can't afford the house alone, that is why she needs me around. But we already have too much time and money into building it. Plus we sold our house and have to move.

I've been thinking about becoming more independent also. We usually go out to eat on my birthday. I'm thinking of asking her to stay home and telling her I would rather go with just my family (the kids).

I might skip Thanksgiving at her parent's house too. I would be happier spending the time helping at a homeless shelter. Her family knows we are having problems, and this might get her thinking. One sister has said she felt sorry for me in this marriage, another told me if I help my wife more with the house plans maybe my wife would cook for me (my wife had told her I should just be happy she cooks for me and raises my kids), and a sister-in-law was wondering why I was OK letting my wife build a huge house (I told her I didn't really care that much about money so I didn't care what my wife did with it).

If she just wants to stay roommates, then she can't expect me to act like the happy husband.

"If she just wants to stay roommates, then she can't expect me to act like the happy husband."

I agree with you. Hang in there. I'm glad your children bring you such joy. That must help alot.

Symphony

I have a very fulfilling life: great kids, great job, good friends, interesting hobbies, many outside interests, excellent health, ...

I just wish I had someone special to share that joy with every day.

Is it hard to find the right person or have many of us grown-up not knowing how to keep a relationship healthy? From my experience I'd say the latter.

Glad to hear that your day went well and I hope that you do get to share your joy with someone special. God knows what's in your heart!

I think you are right. I think almost any couple can be the right couple if they are both willing to give everything to the other person, to communicate effectively, and to unconditionally love that person. Today there are just too many outside distractions and people no longer understand that their spouse and family are the reasons they do everything else. What good is a job and money and cars and toys without a family to share them with?

I just want that someone special to be my wife and the mother of my kids. So I guess I go back to work on the marriage. What else can I do to make myself a better person for her?

Well, today we started on her half million dollar house. All I can think about is "why am I doing this for her??"! But it's too late to turn back now.

I started reading "Love Must be Tough" today. I guess I should have read it before we started building!

Saw my marriage counselor today and came to the realization that I wife just can't show affection. It's just not in her. How did I every end up with someone so cold hearted? And how did our kids turn out so warm hearted and happy with her around?

The kids got back their national exam scores today. They all scored in the 96th percentile for math!! They must have my math genes, since I was a math major! Plus my wife is actually a very good teacher for them.

My wife slept on the couch again tonight. Our bed felt so empty, I went just got up and went to work at 4am. She didn't sit by me at church yesterday, and after church we went to different retaurants to eat lunch. She went with my daughter, and I took the boys somewhere else.

We did go out to eat supper together, but she would only talk to the kids. I'm almost done reading 'Tough Love'. Just not sure how to get tough without breaking up the family. Our kids are too young yet to handle that.

Kids adjust...AND

It's better for kids to live with two happy parents in two happy separate homes than together in one very unhappy home.

But are house is not very unhappy now. She's unhappy and I'm unhappy, but we avoid most conflict. The kids don't see us upset, we are civil around the kids, and they do see me showing affection and writing notes to my wife. So they know I do love her.

Our house is actually very happy, just more like a dorm happy instead of a family happy.

Read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders by Harley - or at least a review.

It would be a good basis for understanding more of what is happening with you.

You may have made mistakes in the past or even now - but it seems that you are making efforts and she is not.

I can discuss any of the "spiritual" aspects if you care to.

To begin by pointing out one. If you walk away from her as the "unbeliever" she names you to be, she has no obligation to you and is free to marry again.

work closely with the folks that are supposed to have input with her that she chooses to be influenced by.They will be your best allies.

Read the thread on Emotional Needs by River Girl for a substantial success story in progress.

No one book - influence from many directions and from within...

c

Thanks, I haven't read the book yet, but I'm guessing I'm a buyer and she is a renter. I'm in this no matter what, so I've bought it and want to keep it and fix the things that don't work. She is a renter and is in this until she is unhappy and desires something better. Did I capture what the book is about?

I've been working with a top person in her church. I realized early on that she wanted me to be the 'unbeliever' and push me away so she could remarry. The person at the church is ready to confront her on her beliefs because he has seen both sides and knows she is trying to split us up.

Right now I'm not even sure I want her back. I don't want to be with someone that I make unhappy and that does not want to be with me. Maybe it would be better to shelf my beliefs and walk away. It's been too many years since she cared for me. It's too hard to constantly be the only giver in the marriage.

I've been looking everywhere for answers and support. Counselors, pastors, books, forums, friends,... Together I think they are starting to help.

Yes, pretty much: freeloader "I'm hear as long as it doesn't cost me anything, and I like it - but if it does I'm outa here.

Renter: I will "pay rent" but if something needs to be fixed, fuggedaboutit, I'm outa here.

Buyer: committed, works to fix what is wrong and find ways of improvement...

That is the title - getting a clear picture of LoveBank accounts and the dynamics of what happens when different combinations of the above 3 occur - is better yet.

2 statements I hear you say that govern you strongly -
" I'm in this no matter what,..." and "Maybe it would be better to shelf my beliefs and walk away."

It may be that you are something like me - a mistake that I have made with my life - if you want to call it that - is, and this will be some hard to describe - is to be governed by a set of beliefs - to the point that you become detached from your beliefs. The Beliefs are what you "want" to be but aren't, exactly - but you have learned how to live with it anyway.

My picture is something like I see people's involvement at "church". They are committed to the institution of church but not really a dynamic relationship with God. They know what it is supposed to look like and are more committed to what is in their minds "eye."

Just so, I have been committed to the institution of marriage and the set of beliefs that go with it - so as not to have any option other than what is inside that belief set.

I guess that has kept me married these nearly 30 years - and but it has short circuited me being me - offering a relationship of honesty and transparency. One might think of "hiding behind a set of beliefs."

A new book is read, a new hope for a better relationship - if we could only get on the same page. etc.

My wife shares somewhat the same fault. But why wasn't this woman responsible for the tongue lashings i got even if it was during "that time of the month?" Because it is that time of the month is her responsibility checked at the door?

Now you have more than that time of the month to deal with at you ages - menapausal symptoms will trash you like a stray dog in a butcher shop trash can.

Coming to the place of being buyers early on in your marriage would have better prepared for this. "Now it is winter and you don't have proper clothing." Neither of you.

The emotional "knowledge" that has been embodied while keeping an outward "belief" system that has displaced honesty in the relationship - works in a wierd way:

"I am doing what is right but it is not working - and (possibly) after all, this is what I am supposed to do and God is supposed to make the difference."

Having a fear of looking like you don't have that belief system or looking like a unbeliever - may have you trapped in a squirrel cage - running, running - "hey, I've been here before..."

more later.

c

I think my beliefs are more about a relationship with God.

My statement about walking away was frustration that my wife has made it clear for years that she does not want to be with me. I think she would be very happy if I left and I think she feels trapped in a marriage with someone she doesn't want. Being with her is just making her more unhappy and I don't think I can ever change to be the person she wants. I only know how to be me.

I really have no desire to leave and will continue to work on things. But sometimes all the empty years get the better of me and I wonder what it would be like to buy a nicer house. Then I get back to reality and back to trying to fix the marriage.

In studying Dr. Harley's principles it became very apparent that he had something worthwhile.

Husbands are admonished frequently to love their wives. But an measurable infrastructure for the "how" is usually not readily apparent.

Dr. Harley's material give both spouses that infrastructure.

If the husband initiates, what better way for the wife to "respect her husband" than to respond favorably to him?

Eph 5:33. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

It will be a good day for us when husbands and wives take the time to get to the place of agreeing to meet the most important emotional needs - allowing them to be what God intended after creation of a counterpart* along side the first man.

*[Counterpart] or "mate" is a more literal translation for the Hebrew word "neged," rather than the connoted "helper" we usually hear of.

So my hope is this - that Christians will get a glimpse of the truth that their relationship with their spouses is reflective of their relationship with God.

Go figgure: Is our christianity something of convience? It tragically is when an application of scriptural imperitives are brushed aside.


ie 1John 4: 20. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
21. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Would you not look for the same from the Husband/Wife relationship?

Is there presented any Higher "spiritual cause."

May it be so.

c